DISCIPLESHIP
[p. 260] DISCIPLESHIP
FER I think that we had better consider these three chapters, i.e. 14, 15 and 16.
DLH Would you say a little about the section?
FER As far as I understand, these chapters take up the subject of discipleship; they bring out the principle that what is impossible to man is possible with God. In chapter 14 you get no disciples, you get them in chapter 16. Chapter 14 brings out this, that discipleship to Christ is an impossibility to man as man. The Lord has marked out, has initiated the path, but a path which is entirely impossible for man to follow. It comes out all through the chapter.
WB In what way do you touch the great supper?
FER The great supper comes in to test the people of privilege, and they refuse it, hence compulsion comes in, in order that the house may be filled.
DLH The principle that comes out is totally subversive to what is found among men.
JSO Man must be brought into the house before he can be a disciple.
FER Exactly, and the divine activities bring that about.
DLH Do you get the divine activities in the compulsion of grace?
FER That is developed in chapter 15. Chapter 14 is the supper, chapter 15 the guest.
TB Is there just as much compulsion at the end as at the beginning?
FER It is compulsion all through. Man is just as unwilling to come in to the great supper now as ever he was.
TB I do not mean as to time, but as to what the [p. 261] soul passes through, he is brought into the Father’s house by compulsion?
FER I think so, there never was a man converted willingly, of his own will; man has to be made willing. You get the great fact that the Lord marked out a path; there is this principle about the Lord, that He never proposed to others anything that was not expressed in Himself. In the beginning of the chapter He goes into the Pharisee’s house, and He began by silencing them; then He proposed the path which was really the expression of Himself. He proposes to them that were bidden to take the lowest room, and to the host that he should look for recompense at the resurrection of the just. It really expresses, in a way, the path and course which Christ Himself took. He proposed the path, but man is entirely incapable of taking it. Man will exalt himself, and look for present recompense.
WJ In order for discipleship there must be another world.
FER Exactly; that is recompense at the resurrection of the just.
WB Do you think that inviting the poor, halt, lame and blind is discipleship?
FER The Lord proposes that way for man to take, and he was to look for recompense at the resurrection of the just. If a man was looking for recompense then, he would not be particular to invite great people. When you get the parable of the great supper, the class of people invited are the poor, the maimed, the lame and the blind. After all, Christ was acting down here in perfect communion with heaven.
WJ Chapter 15 is the development of it.
FER Yes, when the great supper comes along people are tested by it, and the people of privilege deliberately refuse, they cannot come, they will not humble themselves. They have earthly engagements which keep them from coming, and that is what made [p. 262] me say that the Lord proposes a path impossible to man, but still the Lord proposes it.
PRM Is that the mind that was in Christ Jesus?
FER I think so; He humbled Himself, He entered the house of the chief Pharisee yet He did not court the great of this world. He ministered to the poor, maimed, lame and blind when He was down here.
WJ The state of things must have been painful to Him in a way.
FER Yes, He observed the manner of men, and proposed to them the way which they would not take. No man voluntarily humbles himself.
DLH We see how Christianity, the principles of grace, are incompatible with the ways and manners of men here.
FER And men are not going to change their ways; Christ has come in to propose a way, but men are not going to change their ways.
DLH That would result in the complete disruption of society.
FER Yes, it would produce a complete revolution in the world if it were possible for man to act on these principles. The same thing comes out in the latter part of the chapter in regard to discipleship; a man is to forsake all that he hath to become a disciple of Christ. But what man is going to do it? He has not the power to do it.
DLH What is there in the Sabbath, in the beginning of the chapter?
FER The Sabbath was always a test question; the Lord takes His own course in regard of the Sabbath, continually.
DLH Where there was need and misery the Sabbath was not allowed to stand in the way.
FER And the Lord gives the character of mercy to it — He is Lord of it and it was made for man. It is a monstrous thing to think that God was not going to minister mercy on the [p. 263] Sabbath day.
DLH It meant rest, but there was not much rest for the man with the dropsy; it was not much of a Sabbath to him.
FER Everything in chapter 14 is dependent on this, that there was another Man there, a Man from heaven, who was conversant with the ways and spirit of heaven. He was there proposing a way to man which was entirely impossible for man to follow, but He was there, and it is wonderful that He never proposed anything to man that was not expressed in Himself.
WB Is it not rather the will of man than lack of power?
FER Man’s will is his weakness. Conscience may be appealed to, but his will is his weakness.
G The Lord proposed an unpalatable path?
FER But it was an impossible path. Man cannot humble himself as man, nor change his ways; looking for recompense now is not looking for it at the resurrection of the just; it is not in man’s power to do it.
WJ It is more the social thing in this chapter, and the religious thing in chapter 13.
FER Yes, all this is supplementary, it is taking up detail, and in chapter 15 you have the principle of reconciliation brought in, which really is the basis of discipleship, and the principle is that what is impossible with man is possible with God.
TH What do you understand by the great supper?
FER It is the celebration of righteousness.
DLH It goes beyond meeting man’s need.
FER It is the infinite satisfaction of heaven in the establishment of righteousness in the death of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the expression and power of it. He compels them to come in to the supper.
HCA The invitation is going on now?
FER I think so.
JSO Is not the house the house of the Saviour God?
FER I think so. The Holy Spirit has come down [p. 264] from heaven as the witness of Jesus glorified, and Jesus glorified really means the expression of divine satisfaction in what has been accomplished on man’s behalf. That is the great supper.
DLH It was really an invitation to come and enjoy God’s feast.
FER Exactly. God’s feast is really the satisfaction He has.
WJ It is the servant, not the servants, that is sent out here?
FER It is generally looked upon as an allusion to the Holy Spirit. You do not get the great supper until the Holy Spirit is come. The accomplishment of righteousness was in the death of Christ; resurrection is the testimony of it, and the glory is the celebration of it, and the Holy Spirit has come to bring the celebration of it, to inaugurate the great supper. Grace reigns through righteousness.
WJ Righteousness is witnessed in the resurrection.
FER Resurrection is God’s testimony to it. Death is annulled, and that is God’s testimony to what has been accomplished on His behalf; grace is inseparable from it. The more sense you get of the glory of the Lord the more sense you get of grace, then you begin to enter into the divine satisfaction of what has been accomplished.
TB Are these three chapters an illustration of the parable in chapter 10?
FER They carry you a long way beyond it.
TB You get the power in chapter 10?
FER But power to carry you in the wilderness.
TB Where is the transition?
FER A man gets divine teaching and power, but this goes beyond it because it takes up the question of discipleship. You follow Christ: one is preparatory to the other. You could not touch this without chapter 10. The prodigal in chapter 15 is prepared to tread [p. 265] the path of Christ here, he is in the good of the supper and reconciliation.
WJ Is not Lazarus, the younger son, inside?
FER That is chapter 16, which gives you a fearful picture of the world, and the Lord draws aside the curtain and shows us what is outside the world. The great point in chapter 15 is reconciliation; it brings in the activities of grace of the Godhead. You must take the chapter as a whole.
HCA That would be for the formation of discipleship?
FER It brings about reconciliation, and discipleship follows upon it. There is no true discipleship to Christ without reconciliation, hence it lies in the principle of another man. You cannot make man after the flesh a disciple of Christ. Chapter 14 brings out the necessity of reconciliation. Man cannot follow in the path the Lord proposes, man would make terms with the enemy, he would set to build a tower and not be able to finish it. It is the history of the Church and Christianity in the world — they have made terms with the enemy.
DLH The point in reconciliation is that death must come in.
FER You must have another Man. Reconciliation involves new creation. There is distance in the first man and you cannot change that distance into complacency, hence you must change the man, because complacency is put where distance was and necessitates a change of man.
DLH That really is the force of the best robe.
FER Exactly. Outside the house everything was effected on the Father’s side. When the prodigal is clothed and brought into the house everything is effected on his side, and what characterised him on his side was wholly of God.
HCA The best robe was not the prodigal covered, but [p. 266] his disappearance.
FER It is to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
DLH Robe is characteristic.
FER A man is characterised by his dress.
JSO Is ‘Christ in you’ state?
FER Yes.
Ques Is that the force of “This my son was dead and is alive again” (Luke 15: 24)?
FER Where distance was, there is complacency; that is the idea of reconciliation without a doubt. In the case of the first two parables in the chapter the truth goes on as far as repentance, but in the third parable of the prodigal, it is the making merry.
JSO The point is more with the Jew in repentance, hence it is a means to an end.
FER Exactly, and the work of the Lord seeking the sheep, and the Holy Spirit seeking the lost piece of silver, is not looked at as going beyond repentance. All the rest is a question of exercise of soul which brings a person back to the Father, and then you get the making merry. There is the initiatory work in the first two parables, and when that has happened there is joy in heaven. In the third, the exercise of soul is described, and the result is making merry. You must take the chapter as a whole, as portraying divine activities, it is the consummation.
DLH What is the salt in the end of chapter 14?
FER I think it is pictured in Christendom. They take up Christianity; it was a kind of salt, but it had lost its savour and it is not fit for the dunghill. You could not have a more awful picture than Christendom at the present time, not merely in Roman Catholic countries but in Protestant countries. It is a terrible satanic means of delusion.
DLH Salt is really abiding in the apprehension of grace.
FER I think so. The Church began all right in [p. 267] the light of God and the truth of grace, but it very soon lost its savour when what is human came in.
CB When you speak of the path of disciples in chapter 16, what do you mean?
FER The Lord takes up wealth; money in this world has two effects; with the Christian it is a test of faithfulness, and with the covetous it smooths the way to hell. There are very few people who have not possessions in this world, they are stewards of what they have, and it is a test of faithfulness to the Christian. The Pharisees were covetous of this world’s goods, which smooth the way to hell. There is nothing midway between the two. Many try to make the best of both worlds.
HCA Is Lazarus the disciple?
FER I think he is.
JSO He was not affected with the riches.
FER No, the conditions of this world are reversed in another. People have an idea that the conditions of this world are going to be carried on to another, but it is not so.
Ques How do you know that we are answering to the test?
FER One only attempts to get at the principles in the chapter. The Lord speaks of them as being a test; I think you can prove it. The question is, how are you using your goods, for this world or another? “Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations”. (Luke 16: 9.) You can test yourself in that way. Get everlasting habitations in view and live in the light of another world. You have a stewardship here and that comes to an end, but there is no stewardship there.
TB You can anticipate that moment now.
FER Yes. The Jew was about to be turned out of his stewardship; his goods might be in his hands, but the point is what use is he going to turn them to;
[p. 268] he is turned out of his stewardship because of his unfaithfulness, but the way to take things up is to use them in faithfulness to the Lord, not to man.
DLH Is it in that connection that the Lord introduces divorce?
FER I think so.
WJ What is the thought in that passage?
FER He ties the Pharisees to the law. Death was the only way to escape and the Lord shows how completely the Jew was tied to the law. To get free of the law was spiritual adultery. You only came into the kingdom through death — “Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ” (Romans 7: 4). If a man takes the ground of a living man on earth, and using what God has prospered him with, he is tied to the law and there is no escape but through death; he is on the footing of responsibility. The Jew had Moses and the prophets, but the use of Moses and the prophets was really to direct them to Christ, but they did not serve that purpose to the Pharisees, they were not directed to Christ.
WJ The elder son lived on the estate.
FER He was with the Father. He was not like the Gentile. Reconciliation brings in the change; it is not taught in the Old Testament, but atonement is. Reconciliation came in in the New Testament because the prominent idea is connected with the Gentile. The Gentile was not going to get the elder brother’s portion, he comes into an entirely different position. In Colossians the Gentile is prominent.
TB In Luke you get the thought of two men and their characteristics.
FER Yes, it is pretty much on that line. We have two men and what appertained to them in chapter 16.
JB When was it that the Father came out and entreated the elder son?
FER I feel that even when the Gentile is brought [p. 269] in, that God deals in grace with the Jew. The apostle, for instance, always went to the Jew first.
TB The epistle to the Hebrews is the final entreaty.
FER I think so, to those who embraced Christianity.
DLH And the testimony of the Holy Spirit up to Stephen’s time was all on that line.
FER Yes, even to Stephen the testimony was to the Jew first. It is a most wonderful thing to think, if you can enter into it, that there should be infinite satisfaction in heaven in what has been accomplished on the behalf of man. It is interesting in the first two parables that the truth does not go beyond repentance. The producing of repentance in man is the work of the Holy Spirit, With the prodigal the repentance was when he came to himself. Repentance is the distinctive work of divine Persons wrought in the soul.
PRM Is that why he said “I have sinned against heaven”?
FER Repentance is undoubtedly a movement God-ward. The prodigal is made fit for the eye of God — “To present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight” (Colossians 1: 22) is the idea. There is common joy, he comes into the celebration, to the satisfaction of these things. You cannot press parables too far, no parable runs on all fours, you cannot attempt to construe it too literally. You must get the general idea of the picture.
DLH Who are the ‘They’ who began to be merry?
FER I do not know at all. One point about it is this, they only began, they have not stopped yet. I have thought that the parable of the woman marked the present time. Light has come into the world and illuminated the house in order to bring to light the elect of God. That is my idea of the parable.
J.M. What is the light?
FER The light of God’s testimony in [p. 270] the world.
Light was always there, but it came into the world to illuminate the world and bring to light the lost piece of silver. God presented Himself to man in grace, but He had His own purpose in doing so, to secure His elect. The Jew was the lost sheep, and the Holy Spirit comes to bring the light of God’s testimony into the world, but with the object of bringing into view the lost piece of silver. If you do not apprehend that the world-wide testimony of God is like the sun in the heavens, that God had His own purpose to serve, you would have a very defective thought of God.
WJ We are preaching the gospel in the house?
FER I think so, but you may sow the seed as broadcast as you can, and make known the thought that God will have all men to be saved, but your mind must have acquaintance with the thought of God, that He intends to bring His elect to light. In Romans 3 His righteousness is towards all, but in chapter 8 His elect are brought to light. It is impossible for God to address a testimony to man that man may do what he likes with; everyone ought to be prepared for that, God has His own end to serve in it.
PRM How does the thought of disciples differ from the thought of the new man?
FER The new man is the disciple, and God’s witness down here. The disciples learned of Christ. No man can be a disciple until he has come into the light of reconciliation. You cannot come out until you have been in.
DLH The more you go in the better you will come out.
FER Chapter 15 is going in, chapter 16 is coming out. The fatted calf gives the idea of the celebration; it was kept for a great occasion; the elder brother wanted a kid.