COUNSEL FROM CHRIST
COUNSEL FROM CHRIST
FER I suppose this chapter is connected with the preceding one.
DLH Is not the poor widow put in contrast to the leaders of the people?
FER No doubt she is.
HCA Is this chapter the setting up of the authority referred to in chapter 20? “Sit thou on my right hand”, etc.
FER I thought that the bulk of the chapter was taken up with the counsel of the Lord to those who asked Him.
B — d. You mean those who said “When shall these things be”?
FER Yes, you do not get any allusion to the disciples in the chapter. Everything in this chapter and the preceding one — all that comes out in the two chapters — is really upon Jewish ground. The Lord opens up the position in regard of the Jew. The Lord comes up with a twofold testimony to Jerusalem as Zion’s King and cleansing the temple; and that opened up a controversy with the Jew. Christ is a stone of stumbling and the authority of Caesar is left, but God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; He remains, borne witness to by Moses; and Christ sits at God’s right hand, borne witness to by David, and while all is over for the Jew, all that is of God stands; then it is that you get this chapter, I think.
DLH In the case of the widow you get the Lord’s estimate of that which is really for God in a state of things such as was existing publicly at the time.
FER I think so. The Lord looked at things morally and not according to appearances, if you judge by appearances you might have come to some other [p. 282] conclusion. It is a great comfort to know, that whoever looked to Christ got counsel from Him.
TB Were these questions of a true heart in this chapter, and questions of cavil in chapter 20?
FER They were in chapter 20 until they got silenced.
TB Then in chapter 21 He shows the character of things during the time He is at God’s right hand.
FER It is during the time of the desolation of Israel. The two things must go together, while He is at God’s right hand Jerusalem is in desolation.
B — d. Does the widow give the position of the remnant of Israel in the Lord’s absence?
DLH She that is a widow is a widow indeed and desolate.
FER It conveys to me the idea that whatever there is on earth — piety in Israel — was on the point of departure, the widow and her mite are a picture of all that remained for God. It had great value in the Lord’s sight.
JMcK The state of things in Israel brought her into prominence.
FER I think so, and if piety had died out there could be no good in the temple; it could have no moral value whatever if piety had died out.
WB No form however excellent, could have much place if fear were not connected with it.
FER But then the temple is repudiated as we find in Acts 7. “The heaven is my throne and the earth the footstool of my feet”.
DLH The flesh always leans upon these things and can take account of them.
FER They are looked upon as being stable when as a matter of fact they are not. Nothing will remain on earth but what is built by the Spirit of God. Popery is a vast system not built by the Spirit of God. The same thing is true of Protestantism. It is a vast system built up on the letter of the word, but it will [p. 283] not stand.
DLH What the Spirit is engaged in building up is Christ.
JMcK And that will never make a show in this world.
FER No. Protestantism — (protestants generally) — has gone on the letter and the form. They have never got beneath the surface, they rest on the form of the truth and never get the substance. The substance of the Church is what the Holy Spirit wrought here.
DLH I suppose the immediate application of the Lord’s discourse was to the existing state of things in Judaism, then we get the warning and encouragement to the disciples meanwhile?
FER We get His counsel to them in that sense. It comes out in that way they get the word from Christ. The Lord took in the circumstances which were impending connected with the destruction of Jerusalem, and then He went on to the future. “Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” takes in the present interval.
DLH The whole religious fabric must go.
FER The temple had to go and everything not built of God must go. Protestantism as well as popery.
HCA Everything not in association with Christ must go. Is it not the same thought in connection with the distress of nations?
FER Yes, everything is in a state of collapse.
HCA Is there anything here about our present attitude?
FER I do not think so, the Lord is laying out the position of the Jew. I do not see in either chapter anything immediately applicable to us as Christians. The shaking of everything refers to God’s dealings with the earth.
Ques Is there no entering into this before the actual things take place?
FER We are properly outside it all. We are much more in the position of Abraham than of Lot.
[p. 284] The proper attitude of the Christian place is with God, not taken up with what is passing in the world. We get a good deal of detail in a way, it has been communicated to us, nothing is held back, but I think that morally a Christian is outside it all.
Ques What is “Your redemption draweth nigh”?
FER That refers to the Jew in the future in the time of tribulation. They are saved by the Son of man coming.
HCA It refers to those in the actual circumstances.
FER The circumstances connected with the destruction of Jerusalem are analogous to the circumstances that will be in the future. When God takes things up with the Jews the circumstances will correspond to what they were in the past.
JN So that “Generation” might be read, thus, ‘Jewish age’? It has that character.
HCA It is an unbelieving generation which has gone on since.
FER It is a striking feature in chapter 20 that there is only one point of agreement between the Jews and Christ. They accepted Caesar’s authority and the Lord allows it. They wanted to ensnare the Lord, but He says “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”. They were perfectly astounded to find that what they were really trying to entangle Him with, He accepted.
DLH We were noticing last time that it makes things simple for us.
FER They wanted to deliver Him to the power of the Governor and they found that the Lord accepted Caesar.
HCA The Lord Himself did not belong to the authority of the Governor.
FER The whole of the subject is a continuation of the close of chapter 19. He taught daily in the temple, but the chief priests and scribes sought to destroy Him, and in the next chapter they are silenced [p. 285] and the Lord has the last word, and in chapter 21 He goes on with His teaching.
JN The common people showed a disposition to hear Him more than the Scribes and Pharisees.
FER Oh yes, it says so in chapter 19: 48. He was daily in the temple and the people were attentive to hear Him, He had the ear of the people. It is very curious that this state of things should remain to the present day; the people scattered among all the nations and existing in a way, while Jerusalem is trodden under foot. I do not think they will get success in attempting to restore Jerusalem until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
TB It may be all the more trodden upon.
WB At what point do you think the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled?
FER God does not sustain government much after the Church has gone. In the present time government has the support of God, and the powers that be are ordained of God and supported of God, but when the Church is gone they will not have divine support. Government is supported so long as God maintains the authority of the Gentiles, but when you come to Revelation you see the support of God withdrawn from government.
DLH And that lets Satan in.
FER Yes and he gives his authority to the beast, and the state of things on earth then will be intolerable.
WB Does not verse 24 imply that when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled Jerusalem will not be trodden under foot?
FER But you must take that with the following verses, signs in the sun, moon and stars. God gives support, He is the God of heaven and He maintains the powers that be, really for the sake of the Church. The position of God has not changed since the days of Nebuchadnezzar, He is still the God of heaven.
DLH How does the kingdom come [p. 286] in in that connection?
FER I think it comes in to maintain the light of God here. The world gives a kind of acknowledgment to God, but that is the effect of the light being here in the kingdom. So long as the kingdom of God is maintained here it is impossible for man to ignore God. You may get infidels but God will not be ignored so long as the kingdom is maintained here, because it brings in the light and support of God. I am speaking of the kingdom morally now. It has more effect than people think.
B — d. And that is maintained by the Holy Spirit.
FER Yes, and the light of that is here. In the light of that it is impossible for man to completely ignore God.
HCA There will be a terrible collapse when God’s support is withdrawn from government.
FER That is clear. There will be signs in the sun, etc. I think all has taken place down to verse 24.
CB It has been suggested that from verse 12 to 24 it should be a parenthesis.
FER That is entirely impossible. For instance the 20th verse refers to what is already past, I do not think it refers to the future, and verse 24 has been fulfilled. Jerusalem has been trodden down, and you cannot get it on its legs again. The point is that Jerusalem remains trodden down; it cannot rise again. It is likely that verses 10 and 11 are a reference to the state of things in the future.
Ques In verse 25 do we get literal signs in the sun?
FER Oh no, it is all symbolic. When you find the heavenly bodies spoken of in prophetic language it is always symbolic.
HCA They are the ruling powers of the day.
FER I think so, it is the sources of light to men.
JN Will verses 24 and 25 be fulfilled after the Church is gone?
FER It is after the times of the Gentiles at all events.
W Is the word ‘signs’ used because it is something out of the proper course?
FER I think God will give a witness in that way to those who understand it; there will be something signified to them. For instance, the mark of the beast; anything of that kind becomes a sign. God couples two things together throughout the whole of Scripture, viz, government and light. “The greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night”. When government ceases to be light to men, it is evident that God has withdrawn His support.
Ques Is that because government should represent good?
FER It should, and government should be beneficent to men, otherwise it becomes crushing and oppressive; then it is a sign that God has left it.
Rem The days are analogous to those before the flood.
FER When God withdraws His support, government will be oppressive, crushing and tyrannical, there will be signs in it that God has left it.
HCA In Genesis darkness and chaos go together, and then you get the light.
FER Yes, darkness and chaos go together.
TB Is the pillar and support of the truth in 1 Timothy 3, opposed to the revelation of the mystery of lawlessness?
FER I do not know at all, I never thought of the connection.
TB There is the mystery on God’s side and on Satan’s side. The mystery is something which comes in outside of God’s ordinary ways upon earth. All that statement in Timothy “God manifest in flesh” seems to me to bring out His ways outside His public dealings on earth.
CB Would you include blindness happening to Israel, outside His ordinary ways?
FER It is in God’s ordinary ways. When God [p. 288] is dealing upon earth with the Jew set aside, then you get mysteries brought in; the kingdom and the body and godliness. It is only faith that can apprehend the meaning of God’s ways or what God is doing.
TB That picture of Abraham on the mount, and Lot in Sodom is suggestive of the end. There was a tithe for God in Sodom and the one on the mount was an intercessor.
FER Yes if you take Christians generally — worldly Christians, they are vexing themselves tremendously about things but we are not called upon to vex ourselves. So far as that goes most of us feel a certain interest in what is going on around, but we would get on just as well, as Christians, if we did not know what was going on, and really you cannot prevent it.
WB Where do you think intercession comes in?
FER In 1 Timothy 2 you get intercession and prayers to be made for all men.
WB Was that the character of Abraham’s intercession?
FER I think so, it is in connection with God’s testimony that there is mercy to men. God “will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth”. It is that there may be free course and room for God’s testimony in the world where God’s judgment is pending. The teaching of our chapter is evidently addressed to a people on earth. It is for their comfort and instruction that the Lord says this.
AEW You would not have us to be indifferent to what is going on around us?
FER I think the pressure should rightly come to us by the Spirit of God and not from the knowledge of what is doing. The Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. You will not be indifferent to it so long as the Spirit of God is here; we do not help ourselves or others by being interested in the things that are going on around. You see, you have not got a people on earth, like Israel with promises,
[p. 289] and in defection and Jeremiah entering into the position of things. You cannot bring saints back into that position. Supposing you know the ruin of the Church and are morally outside a great deal of it, yet after all the work of the Holy Spirit is going on. There is the substance of things and the body is here.
AEW Still there ought to be the sense of what is going on around us.
FER But God has opened the world to come and you are in the light of it. There is no hope for this world, “Now is the judgment of this world”, its prince is judged and we are in the light of the world to come.
AEW That would not make me indifferent to things here.
WB We read of Jeremiah’s tears, and in Philippians 3 we get Paul’s.
FER Yes, there is that there, where you get defection in Christianity.
WB And in Romans he said that he had great heaviness and sorrow on his brethren’s account.
FER But you could not take that up in the way Paul did. It was undoubtedly on account of Paul’s connection with the Jews who have been set aside for the time being and I can well understand Paul’s feeling for them, and also in Philippians 3.
DLH Does not all depend upon the sphere that belongs to us, whether it is in this world or another? Jeremiah was concerned about the things in Israel. Our sphere is another world.
FER Exactly. The position of Jeremiah was that heaven had not been opened to him and everything on earth was fading away. It makes all the difference in the world when heaven is opened to you, when you see the glory of God and Jesus, like Stephen.
WB If you look at the ruin around and apprehend what the thing was when first set up, I am sure your heart will break.
FER But if you look above, everything is secure.
[p. 290] It is only the one side — the house — that can be touched, the body cannot be touched. The Lord speaks of the trees here to impress His lesson on them. They had natural, but no spiritual observation. He teaches them to observe things that are passing upon earth in the end of the chapter.
JMcK We know the world will not get better and we do not expect it.
FER There would be no idea of giving this instruction if there were not the idea of divine government.
HCA I had always thought that Jeremiah got under the weight of things.
FER It could not be otherwise, no one can enter into the feelings of Jeremiah or Paul or even Christ in regard of people down here. It is impossible for us as Gentiles to do so, though you can do good to all men.