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READINGS ON COLOSSIANS

FER I think from verse 24 of chapter 1 down to verse 5 of chapter 2 is a parenthetical passage. It introduces the sufferings and conflict of the apostle, but the general run of the truth is before and after. This is important because it shows that ministry is not a light thing. Two things are sure to accompany ministry, i.e., suffering and conflict.

HCA When you say suffering and conflict, do you mean what is internal and external?

FER Yes, the conflict is internal and the suffering is external.

JSO Paul had conflict in his soul as to the saints he ministered to.

FER Apparently it is striving, really.

JMcK Would there be power with the ministry if there was not conflict?

FER The danger in connection with the ministry is the minister getting disheartened sometimes, that is not conflict, conflict gives the impression that he must be in conflict with something, it is that there is opposition.

Ques Is it always outward opposition?

FER No.

JSO Do you refer to the sufferings in verse 24 of chapter 1?

FER Yes, and the conflict we have in the end of chapter 1 and the beginning of chapter 2.

ED Does the conflict include exercise before God?

FER I think so; conflict supposes that there are elements of opposition, it indicates the thought of that.

DLH Would it bring in the idea of Satan’s opposition to the truth?

FER I think so; conflict is more in regard to influences, the consciousness of influences at work,

^[p. 39] spiritual opposition to prevent the light of God taking its full effect. The light and revelation of God is there and it is to have its full application and effect; that is where influences come in and hinder. It is rather striking that the conflict carries you right down to Laodicea and to ourselves, because it is to as many as have not seen the apostle’s face in the flesh. The apostle’s exercise embraces a good bit.

DLH Is there any reference to Laodicea as subsequently developed in the Revelation?

FER There is something striking in the end of the epistle, it was to be read to the church of the Laodiceans.

HCA In what way were you speaking of this chapter as parenthetical?

FER I was speaking of this passage which alludes to the apostle’s ministry, the first five verses; he takes up the saints again in verse 6, “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him”. It would have a very great effect on saints to understand what the apostle went through on their behalf; the interest of the apostle.

JSO Paul seems to have had a sense that they did not enter into their proper portion.

FER Yes, he desired their hearts to be encouraged being knit together in love and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding to the knowledge of the mystery of God.

Ques Was his exercise on account of the difficulty to find their exercise, or on account of their receiving the truth?

FER There was exercise on both sides. The apostle could say, “Who is sufficient for these things?” He had the consciousness of adverse influences at work, and I fancy his exercise had a great deal to do with that. There were certain spiritual influences at work in the world whose object was to frustrate the revelation of God. The revelation is there but there are certain ^[p. 40] satanic influences at work to neutralise it. I strongly believe that the real seat of spiritual wickedness is not earth but heaven; their source is not earth but heaven.

ED In 2 Corinthians 4, verse 4, it says, “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not”.

FER Yes, and so, too, Ephesians: “We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities”, etc.

DLH When you speak of the source of these influences being heaven and not earth the actual things that are used to counteract the truth may be earthly may they not?

FER I think they are spiritual, not material.

DLH Could you illustrate what you mean?

FER I think infidelity is spiritual not material; it acts on the spiritual part of man’s being; the part in which the question of God is raised.

Ques How would you understand it coming from heaven?

FER Satan is the source of everything evil, and he seeks to counteract the revelation of God because the revelation of God in this world undoes the work of the devil.

Ques Does that come out in Matthew 13?

FER That is only the foreshadowing of the kingdom.

JSO It would include the ritualistic idea?

FER Yes, it would include superstition and infidelity.

Ques What you say as to Satan being a heavenly power corresponds with his being cast out in the Revelation?

FER Yes, when he is cast out his tactics are totally different. The great point now is, that he seeks to frustrate the revelation of God.

Ques When the Lord says in Luke: “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven” is it future?

FER It is, but then he gives satanic ^[p. 41] power today.

HCA And the truth we have here is calculated to meet that?

FER I think so; the agony of the apostle had reference to that kind of thing. The point now is, the full assurance of understanding, that they might be divinely intelligent.

JSO The knowledge of the mystery would be a security against these evil powers.

FER Yes, it is the only way you can meet these things in the world.

Ques What is “The riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles”?

FER The mystery is a wonderful thing. I think the mystery now is the vessel in which every testimony of God is; that is its resting place, the Church, the body. Nothing comes out in display until it has been given in testimony; that is part of God’s ways.

JSO Here it is especially among the Gentiles.

DLH Do you refer to the three points you alluded to on a previous occasion — blessing, dwelling and reigning, when you speak of the church being the vessel of testimony?

FER Yes, because the church is to come out as the Lamb’s wife, the bride; everything is to come out in the church. The kingdom comes out in the church; the dwelling place is God’s dwelling place; there is no temple, the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it, and it is the source of living waters. All that comes out in the church. God’s three great testimonies were blessing, dwelling and ruling, and these are bound to come out in the heavenly city. The real vessel of them is Christ — His body. Christ is set forth in His body.

DLH And that is what the Church is set to be here on earth, before the public display comes and it is set up in power; it is to be morally all this?

FER Yes, it is not a testimony coming out in detail, but it is all centred, that is the fulness of Him who ^[p. 42] is the Head of all principality and power, He is Head over all things to the church. It is what is adequate for the complete setting forth of Christ.

DLH This would have a wonderful effect if only we entered into it.

FER It is marvellous to see that God has allowed nothing to slip out of His hand. Nothing would give me more gratification than to see people waking up to this because it would entirely absorb them — the completeness of God’s triumph in the church.

HCA It would be a continuance of what was displayed in Christ.

FER Yes, Christ sets forth in the church everything which belongs to Himself. The church has that place in regard to Christ.

DLH With regard to ruling, would you say a word?

FER The saints in the kingdom are not simply subject to Christ, they have part by the Holy Spirit in the joy of the kingdom; we are to rejoice in the Lord.

JSO The translation into the kingdom of the Son of His love would be that.

FER You are suffering for the kingdom and if you are suffering for it you are worthy of it. The kingdom means suffering with Christ; it means we have joy. To me it is the celebration of what was effected at the cross.

DLH Would you say the counterpart?

FER It is the counterpart.

DLH The cross being the suffering side?

FER Exactly; the kingdom the glory side. The cross was the declaration of righteousness, the kingdom is the celebration of righteousness. The Holy Spirit has come down to bring us into all the joy of the kingdom.

ER Receiving Christ Jesus as Lord would bring you to the kingdom?

FER It goes further; that was the effect of reconciliation. He refers there to the first chapter; that meant that they were really in the value of reconciliation and he goes on to say, “Walk ye in him rooted and built up in him”, that means that you have nothing but Christ. You are rooted and built up in Christ, and there is nothing but Him. It is not building up the old man in Christ, it is that you are rooted, and not only rooted but built up in Christ.

DLH So that one man has gone and another remains?

FER If you are rooted in Him; He is the start.

Ques How is Christ among you the hope of glory?

FER I think Christ is in the Gentiles the hope of glory; it is the mystery; it is the way of life.

Ques Is it by the Spirit’s power?

FER It is by life. He is the life of the Gentiles. Christ is our life.

DLH This is what we were on a few minutes ago, the vessel?

FER Yes, the heavenly city is among the Gentiles. It is now set forth in the way of testimony.

DLH The nations that are saved shall walk in the light of it.

FER Yes, you get nothing Jewish there except the names of the apostles of the Lamb. The point is that the heavenly city is among the nations. Christ in you is a moral thought; it is what the apostle was labouring for in regard of the Galatians, until Christ was formed in them. The church was a transcript of Christ. The Gentiles were in the life of Christ.

DLH Do not the moral features come out in chapter 3, “Bowels of mercies”?

FER Yes, they put on the new man. The idea was that there was the reflection of God among the Gentiles. All the moral perfection of Christ was set forth in the Gentiles.

JJ The proper place for this Man is glory, is it not?

FER Christ being in them was the pledge of glory.

Ques. The pledge ^[p. 44] to us?

FER I suppose so; it may go further. The great difficulty is to understand that the church is Christ. If the church is not Christ it is nothing at all, but it is Christ as we see in, “Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?”

DLH It was not an ecclesiastical idea.

FER You cannot separate between a man’s body and himself. Man is expressed in his body. You cannot separate Christ from the Church. The Church is Christ morally. It would be exceedingly difficult to separate from Christ what is rooted and built up in Him.

DLH It is really that against which the gates of hades shall not prevail.

FER Yes, our difficulty to understand it arises from the present state of the Church — it is difficult to enter into divine thoughts in the existing state of the church because the church has dropped down to a kind of Judaism and they have not got what a Jew will have in the millennium. He will have the sense of forgiveness in that day, and the bulk of Christians today have not got even that.

DLH The priests’ occupation would be gone if they had.

FER You only get the consciousness of it as you enter into the divine thoughts about you. You must enter into the divine side to get the consciousness of our side. In Ephesians and Colossians, too, we get the divine thought about the saint’s place: spiritual blessings, predestination, accepted in the Beloved; and then he says, “In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins”. You have the consciousness of it because you have entered into the divine thought, and that is sonship. You have come to God’s side and then you have the consciousness of all that is for you. The same principle comes out in Hebrews, “By the which will we are sanctified”. That is brought to sonship; and then you get further on, “He hath perfected for ever”, etc. Many have the ^[p. 45] faith of forgiveness who have not the consciousness of it. To get the consciousness of it you must enter into God’s side.

DLH I remember some weeks ago that there was some question as to the gospel; that forgiveness was the first thing that a soul received by faith, and I remember a distinction between what was received by faith and the consciousness of it.

FER “No more conscience of sins” is not faith. It is consciousness, not faith; it is more than that.

WJ It brings in the Spirit.

FER It brings in the divine nature, you have justification of life. There is the justification of faith, but the justification of life is beyond that; it is more apprehension. The great point in Christianity is the consciousness of it — you have all that a Jew will have in the millennium but a great deal more besides.

DLH The prodigal in the Father’s house was in the consciousness of it all.

FER Quite so.

JH Might we not have a great deal more than we have the consciousness of?

FER You apprehend a great deal more than you are conscious of, even in human things. I have not a doubt that there is such a place as Paris and if I were to see a map of Paris I might understand it perfectly and not have the consciousness of it, simply because I have never been there.

HCA Believing that there is such a place is believing by faith.

FER If you want to get the consciousness of what you believe, the point is to enter through grace into God’s thoughts about you and if you do so you will have the consciousness of forgiveness.

ED There must be the Spirit of God for that?

FER Yes, you could not touch it unless. You do not reach enjoyment until you reach God’s side. You get the consciousness really in knowing the divine thought.

^[p. 46] Rem It is the difference between the witness to us and the witness in us.

FER The witness does not give exactly consciousness because that lies in the man, in the new man, not simply in the Holy Spirit.

HGA Is it not rather in what the Holy Spirit forms?

FER That is it, “we should be holy and without blame before him in love”, is what you are formed into; it is not simply having the Holy Spirit that does that.

JMcK But the first thing is faith in the testimony?

FER Quite so, testimony is your title to it.

DLH Thus one sees the immense importance of souls being led on from the point of testimony to apprehend what we are now talking about.

FER I think so.

JSO That is what the apostle’s agony was about here?

FER Yes.

JMcK What is the difference between the prodigal being welcomed and his being in the house?

FER When the testimony of grace is accepted by a man he gets the sense of welcome, but when he enters into the Father’s thought, the house, the best robe and eating the fatted calf, he gets the consciousness.

WB At what point in a soul’s history is it sealed?

FER When he believes the testimony.

WB May a man receive the Holy Spirit without the consciousness of forgiveness?

FER Yes, if a man had only the witness of it be would sing, ‘We bless our Saviour’s name, our sins are all forgiven’, and if he had the consciousness of it he would not sing it at all.

WB It is often sung.

FER All right.

JMcK Why would you not sing it at all?

FER Supposing I had been in your debt and you had freely forgiven it, you would not like me to ^[p. 47] tell you much about it afterwards. I would not like to forget it, but I would not like to say much to you about it. I have the sense of His grace but I would not like to talk much to Him about it.

JSO The same thing comes in in restoration; if the sin is gone it is gone.

FER Quite so.

DLH You never lose the sense of His grace but you are in the consciousness of all the favour and love.

FER In the sight of God all that is immensely small; His great thought is the accomplishment of His purpose in us; that is what He would bring us to.

WJ In Ephesians forgiveness is incidental.

FER You have it in having entered into the divine thought about you.

JSO The greatness of it comes out in its being the delight of His heart to do it.

FER Yes, you are accepted in the Beloved and if so you are very conscious of the forgiveness of sins. “Blotting out the handwriting”, etc., brings out another point, that deliverance is in the divine nature. My impression is that there is no deliverance in Romans.

WJ Is it in Philippians 2, “worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure”?

FER Where you get deliverance is in Colossians, being quickened together with Christ. I think that Romans opens out the divine way to it, and you have to take that way, but you cannot take that way as a question of intelligence and faith, it is only in proportion as God works in you. There is the way of deliverance marked out and you have to take that way, but your taking that way is another matter.

WB I had thought that if a man was in the 8th of Romans he was a delivered man?

FER If he is, but if you read Romans 8 you must see that it is all in the Spirit.

WB A man may be delivered today ^[p. 48] and not tomorrow.

FER I think not according to the divine thought.

WB If you speak of deliverance from the world a man may be free today but that is no guarantee that he would be free in twelve months time.

FER That is not the divine thought, “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed”. There is a moment when you stand fast.

JSO There is a difference between being made free from sin and death and being in a new sphere of life.

FER Quite so, that is it.

DLH According to the divine way a person made free by the Son is truly free.

FER I think so.

Ques Does that go beyond actual deliverance, whom the Son has made free?

FER There are two thoughts, (1) the freedom of the house, that is privilege, like a man having the freedom of a city, (2) the truth shall make you free. I think that is deliverance, “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free”.

ED Does risen with Christ cover everything?

FER I think so.

JSO You are brought to a new sphere altogether.

FER Precisely.

JMcK I should like to be clear about this; I have always gone to Romans for deliverance. Do you learn God’s thoughts in Romans?

FER Yes, baptism has marked out the way in chapter 6, but you have to come to the truth morally. In chapter 7 you are free from the law; law is gone, but then you come to a serious part in the end of chapter 7 and chapter 8 — the question of flesh. What the Spirit of God opens out in chapter 8 is you have everything in the Spirit and you have to get into it. It is all the difference between having the Holy Spirit and being quickened with Christ. No man can separate between himself ^[p. 49] and his life.

Colossians 2: 6 - 23 I think last time you said there was a parenthesis from chapter 1: 24, down to verse 5 of chapter 2?

FER The apostle introduces parenthetically the subject of his ministry, and then he speaks of himself, his service and his conflict, and then he takes up the thread again in verse 6 of our chapter. He takes them up on the ground of what he had unfolded to them in chapter 1, “as therefore ye have received the Christ”, etc.

ED Do you connect Christ Jesus the Lord with the subject of the gospel?

FER It covers the entire unfolding of chapter 1. In chapter 1 there is the simple unfolding of Christ, but a very full unfolding. It is of all-importance to apprehend Christ as the One in whom God has acted entirely independent of human intelligence. God has not availed Himself of human intelligence but has acted entirely from Himself and for Himself by Christ and what comes out in chapter 1 is the great truth that Christ is everything on the divine side and also on the human side. Reconciliation is brought in to show the place that Christ has on man’s side.

DLH And has every man to be brought to God according to God’s thoughts?

FER Yes, it has all been brought to pass in Christ; God is wholly independent of man and human intelligence; human intelligence is nowhere; He has effected everything for Himself outside of man and human intelligence, whatever it may be.

JH What is the force of “so walk ye in him”?

FER Walk in the truth of Him, you are not diverted in the world though there is a sort of systematic effort to turn you aside.

DLH In the world there is no other man than ^[p. 50] the first.

FER No, and therefore the effort is to turn you aside from Christ.

DLH It cannot be otherwise.

FER There is an effort abroad to beguile people. There are more voices in the world than the voice of the Son of God and they are seeking to attract people who are right on their ways. I think the spirit and principle of Colossians is that it is intensely exclusive of man.

ED That is by reconciliation.

FER I think so, reconciliation has been brought about by the exclusion of men and that is the real foundation of it.

Rem A man with the forgiveness of sins only could not be said to be brought to God.

FER No, if the grace of God touches a man it does not touch him to leave him where he is, it touches a man but never to leave him in the dispensation in which he is. What I say in regard to Christians is that the grace of God in Romans is to bring you into another scene. In Romans you are justified and come into the scene of God’s ways — the wilderness. In Colossians the grace of God touches you there to bring you into the land of His purpose.

ED And therefore to Himself.

FER Yes.

WB When did the prodigal receive the forgiveness of sins?

ED I do not know.

FER I think he got the assurance of it when the Father met him, he got the sense of the grace from the Father.

WB The individual has learned much when he is brought to the Father.

FER But the Father was brought to him. When the prodigal was brought into the house he was brought to the Father.

JMcK Is forgiveness of sins brought in in Luke 15?

FER It is not the point, but if you speak of the ^[p. 51] point of forgiveness it must have been when the Father kissed him.

Ques Is not one brought to God in the wilderness?

FER No.

Ques Then what about Exodus 19?

FER That was because God came down to them. If you take the song in Exodus it is “Thou shalt bring them in”, etc.

Rem Surely morally we are brought to God in the wilderness?

FER I admit it but if you look at things right He is brought to us and then saints are the habitation of God by the Spirit. The divine thought is to bring you to Himself in His own habitation.

DLH We have there the old saying that the Red Sea and Jordan coalesce a good bit.

FER They do, here you have got no wilderness.

WB Do you mean in the experience of souls Mr. H.?

DLH Not exactly, but you could not understand the song in Exodus without seeing that the Red Sea and Jordan coalesce.

FER If you look at things in the light of purpose they do coalesce; the statement of purpose was to bring them in there was no word about the wilderness.

Ques Would you not call the Jordan experimental?

FER But the Red Sea was experimental, they had to go through it on foot; the dividing of the sea was the power of God, but they had to go through experimentally.

DLH We used to be told that the Red Sea was Christ’s death and resurrection for us and the Jordan was our death with Him.

FER Yes.

Ques Is that ancient history?

DLH I thought that was good truth which you could not very well improve upon.

HCA There is forty years between ^[p. 52] the two.

FER Yes, the perfect period of testing, it has to do with experience.

Rem As a matter of fact there was no Jordan between Israel and the land until the incident of the spies. If they had not turned back in heart there was no Jordan for them.

FER And what do you deduce from that in its application to us?

Rem They returned to the wilderness and their subsequent journeys were the result of their having failed to enter into God’s thought.

FER They could not enter into God’s thoughts except through death; the wilderness came in and the brazen serpent came in. Certain things had to come out before the serpent came in, undoubtedly it was part of the divine purpose from the very outset and it comes in in connection with the perverseness of the flesh when the perverseness of the flesh comes to light. It was no afterthought with God.

Rem You could not speak of anything being an afterthought with God.

FER No, and thus you cannot bring any hypothesis in on the part of the people. What comes out in the ways of God is that the man who comes out in the wilderness does not go into the land and that has to be worked out in the wilderness. Caleb and Joshua are only brought in to maintain the link.

Ques What is the thought as regards life in the brazen serpent?

FER Life is objective, it is in another Man. You partake of the spirit of another Man. The Jordan is the complement of the brazen serpent — the brazen serpent was simply for faith; the experimental side has to come out in Jordan. Self has to be got rid of in Jordan because God has got rid of it in the brazen serpent. It is very interesting to look at the two epistles Romans and Colossians in contrast. The grace of God in Romans is to bring you into the scene of His ways ^[p. 53] and therefore you are justified. A man is justified and comes into the scene of His ways. In Colossians it goes further, you are risen together with Christ to be brought into the land of His purpose. It is just the difference in the individual between the ways of God and the saints in the assembly.

DLH So we get in Colossians “risen with Christ” but not so in Romans.

FER Yes and you are quickened with Him.

ED It must be individual in Romans.

FER It is always individual. The grace of God teaches us and disciplines us in the ways of God. God has brought to light His own purpose and brought us into it in the assembly. The line of God’s purpose is not individual. He has called us to unity. The brazen serpent and the Jordan were necessary because of what the people were.

WB Do I understand you to say that the brazen serpent was not experimental?

FER No it is not experimental, it was an object for faith, whosoever looked lived, it was that principle. In a sense we begin with the faith of Christ crucified.

EB While it is not experimental yet there must be experience to enter into it.

FER Yes you begin with faith and the next step is, I am crucified with Christ. Many a person has faith in Christ crucified who would not say “I am crucified with Christ”.

DLH The brazen serpent meets the state.

FER It has met it for God so that God can impart the Holy Spirit and the believer receives the gift of the Holy Spirit a long time before he can say he is crucified — you can only say so by the Holy Spirit, God has not waited for us arriving at that point; He arrived at it in Christ, we arrive at it by the teaching of the Spirit.

DLH No person could say “I am crucified with Christ” apart from the Holy Spirit.

^[p. 54] FER You never arrive at the mind of God except by the Holy Spirit.

WB Do you mean by the teaching of the Holy Spirit, Mr. H?

DLH I should say so: that you could not say so except from His indwelling.

FER And apart from His teaching I should say; you have no spiritual mind, except by the Spirit it is impossible.

DLH If it were a question of the forgiveness of sins undoubtedly we must have the instruction of the Holy Spirit for that.

FER I think this, that you can accept what is of God, what He has effected for man that there is forgiveness of sins, that that is God’s mind for man but that is no mind about Himself. It is the gospel really, the light in which God presents Himself.

DLH Would you connect that exclusively with faith?

FER Yes, faith is connected with divine testimony: you must begin with accepting the testimony and the work of God is to lead you into God’s mind about yourself.

ED As to the teaching of the Spirit it is what you enter into.

FER Yes, that is divine teaching so that I am really in accord with God’s mind by the Holy Spirit: there is the setting forth of God’s mind in regard of man in the resurrection of Christ and faith accepts that you are “risen with him” — that is not experimental: it is the acceptance of God’s mind as set forth in Christ as regards man. You are risen with Him by faith of the operation of God: who raised Him from the dead. It is faith accepting God’s mind; but when you come to be dead with Christ that is not faith, it is the teaching of the Holy Spirit which has brought my mind into accord with God’s mind.

DLH Is there a point where risen with Christ becomes experimental?

FER ^[p. 55] It is not stated in that way, but what goes with it is “being quickened with him” it is not faith, you are quickened with Him.

ED The evidence of it is seeking things above.

FER It comes out in that way. It is the beginning of the realisation of the assembly, the consciousness of being identified with Christ.

DLH Is “risen with Christ” the recognition of God’s purpose?

FER It is what you are as affected in love towards God and towards Christ; that is what I think.

ED Then you would expect the soul to reach the platform of resurrection?

FER Yes, but the two things are together; the heart is moved in divine affection towards God and towards Christ.

Ques Are some truths only objectively spoken of with the subjective side to them? You sometimes speak of God’s side and ours.

FER There are certain truths which are objective and things which are true in Christ; and there are things which are spoken of in Scripture which refer to us as part of God’s work in us — evidently that is subjective. If I were to speak of being born again, that is evidently subjective, but eternal life is in God’s Son, that is objective. When God speaks of His work in us that is subjective.

DLH But eternal life is a matter of faith?

FER Quite so. Quickened with Christ can only be known by the effects it has. That you may live before God with Christ; the great point is to see the idea of it. We have to take into account that the divine thought is to bring us into association with Christ. We are predestinated, etc. It is the association of affection. Whatever could it be if there were no affections in it — it would not be much.

WB That certainly is very simple.

Ques Why is circumcision ^[p. 56] before baptism?

FER It is identified with baptism. The flesh will not do for God: you have to put off the body of the flesh. You come to Jordan in that way. As being a man in the world I have to do with the things of the world. As quickened with Christ I have to do with the things of Christ: the apostle says: “In that I live I live by faith”, etc. We have to go through the world in faith. In the assembly you are there as being quickened together with Christ: it is connected with our association with Christ. It is only realised in the assembly though we may accept in a way apart from it. I do not say that it is collectively that we have association, but it is collectively that association is realised. It is the portion of every saint, but at the same time there is the realisation of it and I see that the realisation is in the assembly.

DLH The fact is that individually we are not adequate for it, you must take in the company to have the right sense of association with Christ.

FER What you get in connection with the individual is the grace and sympathy of Christ, so the Lord says: “If any man hear my voice and open the door I will come in to him, and will sup with him”, etc., that is individual; that is a different thing to being quickened with Christ.

WB When you speak of the company do you mean the Church?

FER Yes, the assembly proper.

WB It is in a very broken condition.

FER And we suffer; you cannot help suffering on account of the condition. It is really a very little taste we get of the divine purpose on account of the condition of the Church.

Ques “Lo, I am with you alway” — Is that individual?

FER Yes, the Lord could be with His servants in testimony.

DLH As to association a good deal hangs on it.

^[p. 57] I do not know that Scripture speaks of “a child of God”?

FER It is not the idea of it: “Ye are children” it is a collective idea.

ED That follows from Hebrews 2.

FER Quite so. And God is bringing “many sons to glory”, that is the idea.

WB If we are children you may be a child.

DLH But you will lose the thought if you do not see how Scripture puts things. Take another point. If one addresses God as my Father I think one would be going upon ground that hardly belongs to him as an individual.

WB I expect that you in your private prayer may speak to God as your Father.

DLH That is quite right but if I individualise myself and say my Father that is not my ground only — there are other children. I have done it often but I only know of One Person who was in a position to say My Father, that was Christ. The Lord Jesus could say My Father and we can say our Father because of our association with Christ and in the privilege into which we are brought with Christ.

WB When you come to the practical working out of things I expect you call God your Father.

FER If I say Father I do say Father and challenge myself how often I do say Father, but I say it with a consciousness that there are more children than myself. We have thought of John 20 “My Father”, “Your Father”, etc.

DLH Do you go with what I said about individualising?

FER I think so. The Lord distinguishes Himself; He does not say I ascend to our Father but “to my Father”; you have to regard that He was Father to Christ in a different way to what He is to us.

ED I do not see that in a family the children would hinder a child from ^[p. 58] saying father.

FER But I think he would address him as father of the family. In connection with God I am a man and responsibility comes in, but I do not think it is the same thing with Father.

DLH You cannot work on the lines of human relationship, I should be afraid of it.

EC I see what you say as to the collective position of the family, yet if you go before God you say Father.

DLH That is true, I went with Mr. Barker on that.

Ques What is the meaning of chapter 3, verses 14, 15?

FER I think it is in connection with being quickened with Christ, the effect of it is that we all become partakers of the divine nature, we have conscious association and there is the consciousness of deliverance. In coming to association with Christ you are delivered from everything that was against you, trespasses, handwriting of ordinances, principalities and powers.

Ques What is the force of “In him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”?

FER The Godhead is set forth in Him completely revealed. There is in Him what is adequate for it, and then we are complete in Him; you want nothing outside of Christ.

Rem The completeness being in Him, you are above all that is in the world.

FER If there is an order of things in which Christ is everything, anything of man can be no good to you — it would be of no use to you. I would not care to read twenty volumes of philosophy, because the whole thing is entirely outside of Christ — it is of men.

JMcK It would not help you a bit.

HCA Would it not spoil you?

FER Very likely.

JMcK I suppose the Prayer Book has spoiled many ^[p. 59] Christians?

FER It has given them very low thoughts of God. It gives a general idea that God is unfavourable.

WB Do you limit that “complete in him” to intelligence?

FER That is the idea of it. You have everything in Him. The object of the apostle was to prevent their being diverted by what he speaks of as “philosophy and vain deceit” — nothing outside of Christ would be any gain to them. I see that God has acted for Himself in Christ apart from all human intelligence and therefore human intelligence can have no place in the things of God. You have to get at the clear knowledge of the mystery of God. What does a philosopher know about it? — or the Greek or the Jew? Man knows nothing about it and we have come to the clear knowledge of the mystery of God in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. That is only in Christ; it is not made public or manifest. It is only known to the initiated. “Complete in him” has reference to that, you are entirely independent of man.

DLH That is very important for our souls.

FER I remember a remark of Mr. Darby once that if you want the evidence of Scripture go to Scripture, any other evidence may be invalidated but you cannot invalidate Scripture. Scripture is its own evidence.

DLH Scripture carries its own evidence.

FER There is a power of moral force about Scripture which is incontestable. If I read Scripture it brings me to know that I have to do with a moral Being. It has the strongest possible force and brings me to a living God.

Colossians 2: 20 to 3: 17 With regard to a remark last time, that if God touches a man it is not to leave him in the dispensation in which he was, what had you in ^[p. 60] your mind?

FER A man is justified, but he is not justified in the order of things in which he offended. God justifies a man in respect of the things in which he offended, but He also justifies him for something else. For instance, a Jew was not justified to remain in Judaism.

DLH What would be the present application in regard to a person believing in Christendom?

FER If a man is justified in the present time, it is that he may come into the Church. A man is justified by faith in Christ in order that he may come into the Church. I spoke of it before in connection with being risen with Christ. It is by faith of the operation of God that you are risen; that puts you on another platform; dead from the elements of the world.

HCA Would you say you are justified for the world to come?

FER Exactly.

Ques Is that justification of life?

FER Justification of life is that you put it the other way about. A Jew, in the future, will not be justified for the dispensation in which he is, but in view of the kingdom. The dispensation in which he is, is to pass away and give place to what he is justified for.

DLH With regard to the kingdom and the Jew, would the writing of the law on the fleshy tables of the heart be to fit him for the kingdom?

FER That describes the terms on which God is with him when the kingdom is established. The kingdom is what is now — the present time as to what is outward is still the dispensation of law; we are still in the dispensation of law; the public dispensation has not been set aside, we have not yet come to the kingdom, faith has to receive it now, not in the public ways of God, but the kingdom is in mystery.

Ques How is it the public dispensation of law?

FER You get it in Matthew; the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat, and the Lord did not touch the public outward thing; He left them in Moses’ ^[p. 61] seat. Christendom has gone back to the law. The gospel came in but it was carried out in spiritual power by the Holy Spirit. I do not think that the apostle had anything but in the power of the Holy Spirit. Evidently the Spirit of God was outside the course of things here; because the world would not receive Christ, therefore, everything was carried out in the Spirit’s power. The kingdom has been set up in a peculiar way in connection with Christ being hid at God’s right hand, and the power of the Holy Spirit down here; but that is not public.

WB I do not catch the thought of the dispensation of law.

FER The kingdom came in but it suffered violence, and the violent took it by force. It was not set up in power; it was preached and they took it by force. It was not a public change of dispensation that came in. If you look at the law and the prophets they really carry you to the kingdom. Christianity comes in as a parenthesis. The kingdom is an outside public dispensation of God.

DLH When it is a question of government, you cannot rule or govern the world on gospel principles.

FER No, you do not. The world has made a mustard tree of the kingdom although they maintain Christianity in name; the real kingdom is wanting. It is the dispensation of law, but the principle of the kingdom is grace, and must be. For instance, if you take the Queen, she is Queen Victoria by the grace of God, and yet she is compelled to rule on the principle of law; she cannot rule by grace.

WB What about the government of God, that is not grace?

FER You must distinguish between the kingdom and the moral government of God. You may get a saint really suffering under the moral government of God, and yet that saint may be in the kingdom; but he is reaping what he has sown. When the kingdom ^[p. 62] is set up in power the moral government will be on the same lines. In the Psalms you find continually “Rest in the Lord” in the issue of His moral government which will be in the kingdom.

DLH Wickedness will be put down and the righteous blessed.

FER Yes, “rest in the Lord and wait patiently for him”. When God comes in the wicked will not prosper. If you take people, today, converted in system, they accept what comes to pass and remain where they are. Even when we were converted we were not exercised as to whether we should remain where we were.

DLH Many remain where they are because they were converted there, they say.

FER An indication of the lack of understanding the thoughts of God. If a man is converted, God has a purpose about that man, and that man should be exercised and find out what the purpose of God is about him.

Ques Will you help us as to chapter 2: 16 and 3: 1.

FER The effort of man is to bring something in to keep you in bondage to the earth — to attach you to the earth. “Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink”, etc., and why as “though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances; touch not, taste not, handle not”. All these things have reference to people living in the world — mere dogmas.

HCA That is why he says: “If ye then be risen with Christ”, He is not on earth.

FER Exactly; God has set you outside of everything down here. You are circumcised, risen and quickened; all to put you outside of man down here.

AM Are all these things true of every Christian?

FER They are true if they are true. The Christian has to accept the mind of God. Unless he has I could not say he is risen with Christ. You are risen through faith of the operation of God. I say, is there faith of ^[p. 63] the operation of God? If there is you are risen with Him.

AM But that goes a long way.

FER I think so; it goes further than being raised again for our justification. It is just as much the pleasure of God that you should be risen with Christ as it is that you should be justified. Risen with Christ gives you a footing in the land of purpose; justification does not give you a footing there. Justification is positive; what a man is justified from.

AM Is “Quickened together with him” association?

FER Yes, you are to become a priest; that is the object of it.

WJ Is that “the new and living way”?

FER It is in order that you may take that way; you enter that way.

AM It has been said that “The new and living way” was from the cross to the heart of God.

FER I think so, but for us we go the other way; from the heart of God to the cross. The utmost you get in Romans is “The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts”, but that is not brought to God. Brought to God is in His own habitation according to His purpose. Colossians does not go so far as that; it is on the way. We get in Ephesians, “Who hath raised us up together”, etc. The point in Romans is the kingdom.

AM Is that why the title “Lord” is used so often?

FER Quite so, and you have the introduction of the reign of grace through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans never takes you beyond the wilderness. Quickened with Christ places you in association with Christ and with the saints, and, therefore, you have “the elect of God, holy and beloved”. You are now put in connection with the priestly company; that is the effect of being risen with Christ.

RCA What is reconciliation in Romans?

FER He just brings you to the point and no further, because he leaves off and goes back to the contrast between Christ and Adam. In Colossians 1 reconciliation is the basis of everything.

HCA Is reconciliation the purpose?

FER I think so; the idea in the death of Christ is that every man is gone and only one remains. In Romans 5 you have only one Man — not two. The man by whom sin came into the world is put out of the way. Christ came in to remove all that came in by that one man, and Christ alone remains. Every kind and order of man is gone in the death of Christ, and He abides.

AM When it says, “Your life is hid with Christ in God”, is that experimental?

FER I think so; it refers to everything which is governed by the term ‘life’. It is set forth in Him; it is hid with Christ. You know nothing about that life except in Christ. “He is the true God and eternal life”. It is set forth in Him; you cannot see it elsewhere. ‘Hid’ is in contrast to the public display. The great thing is to know what the life is, and that brings you to what is priestly — you cannot get out of the priesthood, everything to us is priestly; you are not reigning, you life is hid and has all to do with God. It is the outcome of the appreciation of all that God has revealed Himself to be; it is boldness to enter into the Holiest. You are in the presence of divine light, and now are conscious of it.

AM We have limited priesthood in the past?

FER We have it in a hymn, ‘In Him we stand a heavenly band;’ (12:2) that is priestly.

AM That is better than standing.

HCA Has not standing to be entered into experimentally?

FER Standing always gives me the idea of unreality.

WJ Is not Colossians ^[p. 65] like Hebrews?

FER It runs remarkably with Hebrews. Of course you get things stated in Colossians which would not suit the Jewish mind, but they are substantially the same thing. Colossians is to bring you into the assembly and the moment you come into the truth of the assembly you come into what is priestly. Hebrews leads you to the same point, “By the which will we are sanctified”, etc. It is that they might apprehend their sanctification for priestly service. Colossians is the same; risen and quickened with Christ.

DLH What is the difference between risen and quickened with Christ?

FER Quickened with Christ is just the work of God in the saint. You are really made to live in the presence of His love. Raised with Christ is simply the expression of His pleasure — the setting forth of the mind of God as the ground on which you are with Him. It gives you a platform in the land of promise in connection with another Man, and by that fact I am outside of every other man here.

DLH Faith apprehends what is before God in raising Him from among the dead.

FER You see what God was about when He raised Him from among the dead.

DLH Quickened is not a question of faith but of divine power.

FER Yes, God has made you to live in the presence of His love. Risen together with Christ is objective, in a sense. Quickened with Christ is more objective; it is moral.

Ques Is it a gradual thing?

FER The Spirit of God says that you are quickened with Christ.

DLH It was to a special company he said that.

FER Because it would not have been advisable to say it to others. The great point now is that you are responsive to the love of God; you are beside yourself. The practical effect is that you do not care about the ^[p. 66] life on earth; God uses it for discipline, but as regards the life here I do not care for it.

DLH That shows that there is a good bit in quickening.

FER Yes, my life is gone; I accept the will of God, but I am not living here for the life on earth. I have natural affection, and all that, but I am not living here for natural affections. It is well to see what the power and reality of the thing is, even though people may decline from it.

HCA Is that why he brings in, “Your life is hid with Christ in God”?

FER Yes, you know what He is, even though the thing has not come out publicly. The world will know us as kings, not as priests, reigning with Him in glory.

DLH What is hidden cannot be manifested, and therefore we must be content to be misunderstood.

FER Take the heavenly city, you will only see one side of it. It is all God’s work and is connected with the work of the twelve. All the interior, Paul’s work, is not seen at all; all you see is the saints reigning with Christ. The moral effect of the priestly side fits you for reigning according to God.

WJ The manifestation is the result of what is inside even now?

FER I think so; there is a sort of dignity about a person in the priestly function. I can understand Paul’s word to Timothy as a man of God, “Flee these things”. You do not want to be on the line of things that are suitable in the world. Paul speaks of a moral priesthood before a royal one. You must go in before you come out. The beginning of Colossians 3 is leading you in; Ephesians is the contrast, you come out. You cannot come out in power for God in the world unless you have gone in. You must know the priestly power, and you come out as a warrior. In Ephesians you are carried in in chapter 2, and in the ^[p. 67] end of chapter 2 and 3 you come out. You are filled to all the fulness of God; that is coming out. In the house of God there is the adequate expression of God. In chapter 6 we come out as warriors.

WJ Do you get the armour in Ephesians or Romans?

FER In Ephesians, because there you find the power of evil. The fact is this, it is only when a man has been with God that he gets a true estimate of what is working here; we only know evil, in a sense, relatively, I take it. If you have gone into God you soon know the character of things here, but not otherwise. Colossians is to lead you into the assembly, your priestly place. In Ephesians you get the purpose of God about you; raised and seated in heavenly places. You have gone in — you go in to come out; not to remain in. If you were not quickened with Christ you would not have a spiritual qualification for priests; you would have a priest after the flesh. Priesthood must be on the ground of resurrection. It is only in resurrection that Christ has a priestly place. You get it set forth in Aaron’s rod. Resurrection is the qualification for the priesthood. God could not be served by men after the flesh.

Ques “In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises” is that priestly?

FER Yes, quite so. Really, what an awful travesty of the truth Christendom is. It is the apostasy, not the truth. How Christians can be content to remain in it is, to me, astounding.

DLH We managed ourselves one time.

FER But the light had not come in as it has today.

AEW What is quickened in Ephesians 2?

FER It is, “Quickened us together with Christ;” that is the company to whom the apostle Paul was addressing himself. In chapter 1 Christ is raised and chapter 2 brings in God’s work in the saints. The apostle is writing to the Ephesians.

^[p. 68] Rem I always thought that this had a special application in the mind of God to the whole church.

FER Why do you give it that application — why should you not read verse 1 as it is written?

DLH Who is it representative of, this epistle then?

FER Of all who were in the condition to take it up. I wish every Christian in the world were in a condition to take it up and enjoy it.

Rem It has been said that Ephesians is a general epistle.

FER It was addressed to the Ephesians and what is written I expect was true of them. It shows the divine wisdom of the Spirit of God which does not bring before the minds of the saints truth which would not help them.

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