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“WITH HIM ON THE HOLY MOUNTAIN”

Reading with A. F. Widtfeldt

AFW I was afresh confirmed in our brother’s prayer as to the impression that came to mind in the meeting this morning, as to the result in substance in Peter, and power to give expression to it and convey it; for he, I would say, imparted to the saints whom he is addressing careful thoughts, caring for them. The impress of what he brings in to “stir you up by putting you in remembrance” is linked in one’s mind with the presentation in Luke, in his distinctive way, of the Supper, the way that Luke introduces into it the memorial side in relation to the loaf, and the way that Paul enlarges upon that and expands it in Corinthians in what he received in a final way from the Lord as glorified, and has conveyed to us. He expands, as we know, the matter of the memorial to the cup, the ‘calling of me to mind’.

Others may know, I do not know, if the word for ‘remembrance’ is the same in Peter’s epistle as it is in Luke and in 1 Corinthians 11, but what is in mind is the tenor of what Peter, in his sense of charge, as loving Christ, and commissioned in this way, would stir us up in putting us in remembrance as to the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”. The substantial gain in Peter’s soul is very noteworthy. His expression “eye-witnesses”, involves being admitted into immediate vision of the glory, “his majesty”. I believe we experienced something of this this morning. Our brother alluded in his prayer to our being receptive, and that was the impression strongly this morning, as to His receiving, “For he received

from God the Father honour and glory, such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory”.

In Luke I thought we would see the way to it, the way that Peter came, the way that the disciples came, the way that we have come as with Him. It says, strikingly enough, that “he went up into a mountain”; not ‘on to’ but ‘into’ pointing in a spiritual sense to something of the inwardness of the holy elevation that is in view. The matter there, as with Him was, “And lo, two men talked with him … who, appearing in glory, spoke of his departure”. I think that this holy liberty is noteworthy, that of men appearing with Him in glory. It is evident that they apparently instigated, or were giving the lead in, the conversation. It is a striking matter, but the Lord was pleased with it. The subject matter would take a great deal more time than we have at this time; but there is the greatness of what comes on to view in this realm as to the Father being so near, listening to what is said and so near in guarding the distinctiveness of Christ as His “beloved Son”, His uniqueness, the place He has. Well, these are some of the thoughts that are in mind. I trust we will mutually be able to gain profit from them under the Lord’s hand.

GWB We are richer now than we were before the occasion earlier. Is it not continually to be so? The Spirit is able to rise above our natural faculties and there would be a storing of these spiritual impressions.

AFW After the meeting this morning a brother observed that to me, and it is a strengthening matter that the same grace and the same power that has given us our initiation into these great and eternal relationships of divine love, is the power available to us continually to sustain us and enrich us in them as we go, is it not?

GWB Paul speaks of it as “the power which works in us” (Ephesians 3: 20); that implies something very great.

AFW Yes.

FCM I was impressed with the references that came in this morning as to love among the brethren, our loving one another, and it made one think of Moses and Aaron meeting. It says, Moses went and met Aaron “on the mountain of God, and kissed him”, Exodus 4: 27.

We met one another this morning in the best and most glorious possible environment, and that would be carried forward now, would it not, in the mutual stirring up of holy minds and affections?

AFW And would also help in the utterance, a sense of the necessity for availability in utterance in our assembly history in the week, the way this matter of utterance—we touched it, yesterday—works out in the prophetic meeting. Peter makes allusion in this section, following where we read, to the prophetic word “made surer, to which ye do well taking heed”. I would just introduce the practical matter as to the need that was with Moses to be submissive to God in regard of the matter of utterance. “Who gave man a mouth?” The mind of God is thus to come in in authority and power and grace. We should not lose the sense of this in our sense of weakness and measure, which we feel greatly.

FCM Was not the word, “I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth”, Exodus 4: 15? I feel how encouraging and strengthening that should be, maybe to younger men especially, to seek help in the expression in the ministry meeting of what the Lord may have given them.

AFW And find that the Spirit, as Mr. Brown says, is available to impress the saints with the greatness increasingly of “the power that worketh in us”.

GWE Would you expand what you were saying earlier as to receptivity and then the impartation? We need both, do we not? Peter was seeking to impart something that he had received that could be called to mind.

AFW And that was very substantially and fully developed in him. We cannot be in relation to the service of God in the assembly without feeling the need of, and yearning for, development in substantiality and wealth intelligently in His presence. I am sure as we take up such desires with God, because He is the source of them, we can look for the corresponding answer because the Father is near, you know, to what relates to the glory of the Son, and the Spirit is there, as the cloud, I judge, would suggestively show. It is not darkening, but it is brightening.

CRB Is experience with divine Persons in the realm of glory to give a character to what we impart of what is glorious in itself?

AFW Go on, please, as to it.

CRB Well, it would help us to view everything from heaven’s viewpoint, do you think, and approach every matter and every person in the light that things have in the glory before God.

AFW Yes. We might feel that we cannot rise to such vast thoughts, but “the power that worketh in us enables us to become equal to these great things, and that helps us to be sustained and intelligent and also to be set free from the tendency of the wilderness side to hold us. The side of the purpose of God bears no relation to man’s responsibility. No doubt God has used most wonderfully the intrusion of sin, and the way it has been met, to enrich the quality of what is for His heart responsively, but that in itself forms no part of His purpose.

AAB Would you say something as to the thought of departure—“my departure”, Peter says, and this departure”? Is it that the power of death is minimised, indeed annulled, in this glorious scene for a moment?

AFW Well, we experience that. That is very well worth pondering. Would you enlarge it?

AAB I feel the driving back of the waters of Jordan is a very great matter in view of the service of God, so that “those who through fear of death through the whole of their life were subject to bondage” have been delivered from it, Hebrews 2: 15.

AFW That is in the setting of the greatness of His Person, is it not, and it is so essential in a scene of death that the pressure of death should be lifted off our spirits.

JM In that connection do you think the way that Peter speaks about “the putting off of my tabernacle” shows that what is substantial in him is going through, and that is really what is vital?

AFW So that he is manifestly in conscious superiority to the condition, and free in that sense carefully to impart from the point reached in its substance in holy elevation. Thence he can bring the impress of the reception of honour and glory from the Father by His beloved Son, bring the impress of that and impart it to these saints in conditions, we would feel, that might correspond in some sense to what we feel in our spirits.

FNS We had an impression here also as to “the power which works in us” (Ephesians 3: 20), the Father’s Spirit. Do you think primarily that would be to help us in our response to Him, but concurrently it would always retain in our affections the uniqueness and pre-eminence of the Son? Luke speaks about the Lord’s departure which He was going to accomplish. Peter does not say that. But there was a sense of victory and triumph with him, do you think, that should be extended to us in our day, a sense of victory over death, because His having gone into death has broken its power for us?

AFW Yes.

GWBThe Spirit says at the end of Joshua 3, “until all the nation had completely gone over the Jordan” (Joshua 3: 17). Is not that typical of assembly status?

AFW And in that sense may not the Lord’s coming, from one viewpoint, be regarded as one thing? His coming in in the incarnation and triumphing over death, and then coming to rapture the assembly, the church, to Himself, and then coming out in His appearing in His public glory. Really, from one viewpoint, it is all one great matter, is it not, for our hearts?

GWB Is that what Jude refers to as to Enoch “the Lord has come”? It does not say, ‘the Lord will come’; “The Lord has come amidst his holy myriads”, Jude 14.

EP Is that because every thought, every purpose of God, is established in that Man? His word is wonderful, but to see where it is established is wonderful too. We spoke about eclipse yesterday; this would be total eclipse, not by a shadow but by the substantial glory of this Person, would it not?

AFW So that the bride in the Canticles says “In his shadow have I rapture and sit down”, Song of Songs 2: 3. That bespoke the time, the dispensation really, in which she was; but, as you say, this is, if we can express it, the substance and fulness, the effect of which caused rapture in the shadow of it in that dispensation. Now we are in the fulness and blessedness of the substance of it in divine perfection in a Man. So it is a wonderful thing to get a grasp of, that every purpose and thought of God is substantially in its fulness in Christ now. Hence the idea of God not getting it is excluded; He has it in Christ, and He is going to have it in those that are Christ’s at His coming.

GWE Does not Acts 5, as to the shadow of Peter, bring in the matter you are speaking of? This is the great light and then Peter is providing the shadow from himself.

AFW That is a helpful suggestion if we can rightly apply it to the way Peter’s shadow was, in that sense, in the substance and power of it, being cast over these dear brethren in view of resuscitation and stirring up, and it may be in view of healing.

RS Would what you say be confirmed in that the voice was uttered to Him, we might have thought it was uttered of Him. Is that to bring out the centralisation of glory, what God will have, and to see everything in Christ?

AFW The line of reception, therefore, as it relates to Christ is food for our souls, “He received … honour and glory”, and then the Father’s reception as He raised Him from the dead by His glory, the bursting forth of the Father’s affections and His joy upon His Son as He received Him, and then the reception in the glory as J.T’s hymn points to it—

‘Received in glory bright up there,

The Father’s greetings, honours rare,

Are heaped upon His Son’s blest brow;

He is the mighty Victor now.’

We come into some understanding of our place in Him as we grow in the apprehension by the Spirit of His place in the Father’s affections.

EHW Why does Peter put it as he does in verse 17, “such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory”? It does not say ‘from’ the excellent glory. Why is that?

AFW Well I would have to say I do not know. Can you help us Mr. Brown as to what it means?

GWB Would it connect with the cloud that filled the tabernacle? That is, really, God is there. God is uttering this, we may say reverently.

EHW It is “God the Father” here. Do you think that Peter was so impressed by the glory of the position and the glory of the utterance, that it gained power in his own soul by the time when he wrote this epistle?

AFW It says in Luke’s gospel, “there came a cloud and overshadowed them, and they feared as they entered into the cloud—and there was a voice out of the cloud saying, This is my beloved Son—hear him”, Luke 9: 34, 35. Do you think in some way the cloud brings out something of the residency of the divine glory that was there in its nearness by the excellent glory? Would that be the truth, Mr. Brown?

GWB I think so. That was the way God manifested His presence to His people, was it not, in their deliverance, the cloud that stood between them and their enemies, and finally filled that dwelling place.

AFW That is a helpful matter for us to understand. We could refer to the wealth of Mr. Darby’s utterances; it is the same God, ‘Our God whom we have known’. The God whom we have known in our deliverance, who has stood between us as in the testimony and the power of the adversary, the same God who has been known in the testimony and has sustained it in power and grace, is the God that is known in His grace and His greatness in the relation of Father; He is the “God and Father” that we serve in worship as brought in, having this access through Christ by one Spirit to Him.

CWF Would there be a reference to the Spirit in the cloud?

AFW I thought that it must be so, that in that sense the Trinity, God, is there.

CWF It, says, “this voice we heard uttered from heaven”; the hearing would be by the Spirit, would it not? And there is also the “voice out of the cloud”.

AFW “Saying”; I think in a sense it implies that there is a continuation of that speaking as to Him right down through the dispensation, “Hear him”.

DEB Could I then ask in that connection, is there any sense now in which we would hear the Father addressing the Son? Is that within our range?

AFW I think the bearing of it by the Spirit is to be, and is, experienced by us. I do not know what experience we could identify that we have in that connection. Do you, Mr. Bellamy?

AAB I wondered if what we have in Scripture, as enlightened by the Spirit, is not to afford us a present sense of the Father’s delight in Christ, as would the passage we are considering, as the Spirit clothes it in present power to our souls.

WTA What would happen in our meetings if we heard the Father’s voice in the cloud of glory relating to His affection for His Son? He speaks to Him, does He not? What depth of affection there was between the Father and the Son! In Matthew it is “a high mountain apart”, Matthew 17: 1. So the disciples were away from everything, to be abstracted from self altogether and to hear the Father’s voice out of the cloud. How would it affect us in relation to the blessedness and the sweetness of all that He finds in Christ?

AFW I think we are in an area that is a bit beyond my depth; but I believe it is right as depending on the Spirit to reach out in these matters, and one thing is manifest, and that is that there, are those who have heard this. Whether or not we can say we do so, there are those who have heard it, they have heard and seen, and they are “eyewitnesses of his majesty”, they are fully initiated into it. I think the scene on the mount is indicative, pointing to a fuller matter that Paul brings on to view in Ephesians, and that is that Christ acquires His residency in our heart, we “being rooted and founded in love”, Ephesians 3: 17. I think that has been alluded to as the ark reaching its final resting place, and there is immediately glory to God “in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages” (Ephesians 3: 21).

CRB Did not Mr. Raven say that we would rightly regard all scripture as being the Father’s word, rather than just in a general way as the word of God? Would that confirm what Mr. Bellamy was saying?

AFW That is good. So the word “Sanctify them by the truth”(John 17: 17); the Lord says, “Thy word”, that is, the Father’s word, “is truth”.

AAB That comes in the words of the Son to the Father. That the creature should ever be admitted

to the audience of what passes between the divine Persons in the economy is a profoundly wonderful thing, is it not?

WTA That is what I was wondering about, to be in the presence and the majesty and the glory of it all. Can we touch that now?

JCE Do you feel we need to keep to it that the power we have is to call things to mind, and that by the Spirit? Certain things are historical but we can call them to mind as having them reported to us, and by the Spirit they have their effect upon us. Does that cover the kind of thing Mr. Abbott is enquiring about?

AFW That is to the point, because we have been instructed as to the place our minds have at the Supper and what flows out from it, that our minds, exercised rightly and spiritually, are such a great matter as to holy intelligence in that realm.

FRT Is not that feature of Peter, his memory, and how he can recall everything so accurately, fully in accord with what we referred to earlier as to Luke and the accuracy of his writings? Even in his deepest decline he “remembered the word of the Lord” (Luke 23: 61) and you just feel what a wonderful memory Peter had so that he can give such an excellent account.

AFW As Mr. Evershed points out, it is a great matter to receive from those who have been admitted into the immediate vision of the glory, and then by the Spirit to partake of something of that. Mr. Taylor’s reference is in a homely sense and we recognise it to be true—he said the powder is the same, involving the power, but he said the calibre of the guns is quite different!

AAB Do you think it may involve the distinctive place the apostles have in christianity? John writes to the saints as having fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. There is what is absolutely distinctive to those men, is there not, into which through grace we have been brought?

AFW I thought that, but the consummation of that epistle is some initiation on our part into the understanding of who the Person is. He says, “We know that the Son of God has come and has given us (I judge the ‘us’ includes the saints, includes us) an understanding that we should know him that is true … He (that is, Christ) is the true God and eternal life”, 1 John 5: 20.

GWB Would it be right to say that the literal cloud does not belong to the dispensation that has come in, but that in the Spirit we have power to look on the things that are not seen but are eternal?

AFW That helps in what we are seeking to reach.

JH Is that where Peter comes very close in his experience to John? I was thinking of the word in Revelation, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men”, Revelation 21: 3. That is the fulfilment of everything that we have here, is it not? Luke refers to the men.

AFW You are thinking of them appearing in glory. The fulness of that comes out in the tabernacle of God with men, where the Fulness is pleased to dwell in such holy intimacy with men.

EHW We are thankful for the eye-witnesses. At the beginning of Luke it says, “who from the beginning were eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word” (Luke 1: 2), but now Peter speaks of himself as among those who were “eyewitnesses of his majesty”. Would not their testimony come right down to our day as having been eye-witnesses, and “his majesty” would affect us greatly, would it not?

AFW It does affect us; it affected us, I am sure, this morning, the Spirit’s power enabling us to see what cannot otherwise be seen. Paul points to it in some real sense when he says, “We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit”, 2 Corinthians 3: 18. I think as we are meditative and contemplative, as those who converse, may we say, with the Spirit and commune with Him as to these matters, you can think of the potential of an assembly week in this regard. Thus there is something of the bearing of the transformation from glory to glory as is seen in the heavenly city; she comes down “having the glory of God”, but it is to administer for Him. It is, as Mr. McCallum’s hymn says—

‘To fill with Christ in grace,

In blest administration,

As bride and wife, her place!’

EOPM Is that why Mr. Taylor linked Luke 9 with the divine level of adjustment? The voice actually came in in regard to Peter’s suggestion as to the three tabernacles. I wondered whether that linked with what you said as to the assembly week—that this level does not need to be dropped to meet the exigencies of the testimony and continues in our experience, to meet any situation.

AFW That is very vital and there will not be loss. You could hardly think of a more serious matter, because I think we have been taught that really what Peter introduced into this holy scene was infidel. It was infidel, and immediately the Father overshadowed the whole matter and protected it, protected the glory of the Person of His Son. I believe fully that that has happened in principle in the current phase we are in in the testimony. I say, in principle; and the adjustment acquired at that level leaves one Object before the view of the disciples. It says, “And as the voice was heard Jesus was found alone” (Luke 9: 36); it silenced every other voice.

AAB So there is the process of adjustment in a spiritual sense going on, as distinct from right teaching. I do not know whether I convey my thought fully. The necessity of right teaching is very great, but the thought of what is imparted and borne by the Father to Him would enter into every adjustment we are receiving now.

AFW And has in view a very much enlarged area of impartation—the adjustment having been received—what was in the mind of God as to these things, and what Peter would be to them, and what He would be to us in our time; how Peter’s epistles have continually afforded a storing up and a restorative impartation. Then there is the wideness of his outlook, not only concerned with the Jewish brethren scattered in the dispersion, but he refers to the gentiles, does he not, in what he says, “the self-same sufferings are accomplished in your brotherhood which is in the world”, 1 Peter 5: 9.

So how widely effective that adjustment became in its blessing for the people of God. It is to help us to be large in our expectations too, and not to minimise—though we feel our need, and rightly so—what God has given us, any one of us. Mr. Coates remarks that he thought that for every brother that was functioning beyond his measure there were ninety-nine that were not functioning up to their measure.

JCE I suppose if Peter stopped at the first sentence he would have been one hundred per cent right, would he not, “Master, it is good for us to be here”, Luke 9: 33. I was thinking of what you said as to measure.

AFW Very good, I see that.

CWF Was this not the subject of ministry over the last few weekends—the preparation and sanctification? Peter speaks of “being with him on the holy mountain”. It is in relation to such conditions that he says, “this voice we heard”, “uttered to him by the excellent glory”. So should we not have this objective, to be in accord with, and suitable to receive, such wonderful utterances?

AFW That is very good.

Redbridge
4 November 1973

Key to Initials

WTA W. T. Abbott, London

AAB A. A. Bellamy, Buckhurst Hill

CRB C. R. Byng, London

DEB D. E. Burr, Redbridge

GWB G. W. Brown, Barnet

GWE G. W. Easton, Redbridge

JCE J. C. Evershed, London

CWF C. W. Frost, Redbridge

JH J. Hedges, Grimsby

EOPM E. O. P. Mutton, Redbridge

FCM F. C. Mutton, Redbridge

JM J. Mitchell, Bromley

EP E. Palmer, London

FNS F. N. Stickland, Redbridge

RS R. Swan, Edinburgh

FRT F. R. Turner, Bournemouth

AFW A. F. Widtfeldt, San Francisco

EHW E. H. Wakefield, Sunbury

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