ETERNITY TO ETERNITY (2)
[p. 214] ETERNITY TO ETERNITY (2)
JT In addition to what we touched upon this morning in chapter 1, it may be pointed out that what is brought before us in the chapter involves the will of God and the power of God. Having come down to the sphere of testimony, we have the subject of redemption mentioned (verse 7) whence all is worked out. The “administration of the fulness of times” implies that all is to be carried over as finished, or in a mature condition. Hence the apostle speaks of “all wisdom and intelligence”, and having spoken of the “good pleasure of his will” he proceeds to allude to the “mystery of his will” and the “counsel of his own will”. The period from Adam to Noah illustrates the working out of these things; so that we have the expression, “the seventh from Adam”, as indicating full development, Enoch being translated; and then, in Noah, the carrying over of the result of the testimony, involving maturity; for all that entered into the ark was mature, there was no idea of multiplication in the ark. All the living creatures came to Noah; and his sons and their wives were, of course, full grown. There were no children in the ark and nothing immature. In all this, too, there was the idea of mystery. The epistle to the Ephesians has maturity in view; what is going over is to be mature. The teaching of this epistle is to lead to that. Hence we read, “that we may be no longer babes” (chapter 4:14). Maturity should ever be before us, especially as we draw near the end.
FHB The apostle speaks in chapter 4 of arriving at “the full-grown man”. Is that maturity of affection?
JT Yes. By the knowledge of the Son of God we arrive at the full-grown man. The Son of God being from God here in testimony, it is how He is seen here;
we “grow up to him in all things”, (Ephesians 4:15). But I thought we might see in chapter 1 the will of God — the “good pleasure of his will” and the “mystery of his will” and the “counsel of his own will”. The “mystery of his will” involves obscurity on the part of those who have part in it.
FHB Is the “mystery of his will” here connected with the world to come?
JT Yes; “to head up all things in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth”. I apprehend these “things” to be fully developed, that is, each answers to the mind of God. One can understand that the lives of Enoch and Noah were mysteries. The testimony of Noah in the building of the ark and preaching would be mysterious to the then world. What was all this about? But it culminated in material being carried over in full maturity, so that another order of things is begun.
Ques What have you in mind as to carrying over?
JT Well, that should be the attitude of our souls. Enoch “was not, for God took him”. Taken in connection with Noah and the ark, Enoch represents the heavenly side. In the ark, we have the result of the testimony carried over out of one world into another. It was full of life, but mature life, as far as the facts shew.
PL Would the expression “the men whom thou gavest me” suggest maturity?
JT Exactly. If God has abounded, as it says, “towards us in all wisdom and intelligence, having made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for the administration of the fulness of times; to head up all things in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth”, it is clear that growth is in view; so that the next section of the chapter, the prayer of the apostle, is to the end that we might have the “spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened [p. 216] in the eyes of your heart, so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe”. The mystery would be seen in those who are grown, who are in the light of the mind of God, who know how to hide it and are content in smallness here.
HH Would this suggest the perfection which is for God’s world produced by the Spirit in the way of formation in the saints?
JT Quite so; the work at Ephesus evidently had this in view.
HH Paul stayed there for three years to be used of God in the development of all this amongst the saints there.
JT The divine thoughts presented in this chapter are brought to bear upon us so that there should be maturity, in mystery, so that there is contentment in obscurity, both in our daily lives and in our service. In the knowledge of the place that we have in the divine scheme, we can accept obscurity, so that an Ephesian christian is properly capable of taking up Corinthians. The teaching here involves smallness and obscurity outwardly. The “seventh from Adam” would mean that the testimony set out in Adam had developed. It descended from Adam through Seth, not through Cain: Abel’s offering having come in and Seth being appointed instead of Abel, you have light descending from Adam. Adam is set up again, so to speak, and Enoch is the seventh, so that it is a development and a development involving maturity, because before his translation he had the testimony that he pleased God, and he prophesied that he saw the Lord coming with the holy myriads (Jude 14). The heavenly testimony is involved in Enoch and the earthly in Noah, but in either case there is maturity, Noah suggesting the idea seen in the four living creatures (Revelation 4), but Enoch is a disciplined or taught man, corresponding with the twenty-four elders.
[p. 217] Ques Do you mean that the twenty-four elders represent experience in divine things?
JT Yes; Enoch is the “seventh from Adam”, and his name signifies a disciplined man, that is, a man who is taught of God; that is one side of the position. The other side is what God has secured in a living way which is seen in Noah and the ark, I think.
EuR How do those two sides come into the scripture before us?
JT They enter into the idea of the mystery. There is the mystery of God’s will; that would imply that certain things are to be carried through, but at the present time it is mysterious: the expression “for the administration of the fulness of times; to head up all things in the Christ”, meaning that all the periods of testimony have rendered their quota. I thought that the period between Adam and Noah helped to indicate how God works all this out, the experience and intelligence in the heavenly being illustrated in Enoch, and what is living in Noah.
AMH Are you suggesting that all these thoughts enter into the idea of the “mystery of his will”? (chapter 1:9).
JT Yes. As having a bearing on us here at the end. There should be intelligence through discipline and walking with God, and then the development of life. One idea in life is variety, and I believe that the idea of variety was intended to be conveyed in the ark. These thoughts have a bearing on our growth and spiritual instruction under the discipline of God, and the development of the affections that God intends to be displayed as expressive of life. All is according to “the counsel of his own will”. There is, therefore, the will of God in its “good pleasure”, its “mystery” and its “counsel”.
JJ Would all that lead on to Abraham, after Enoch and Noah?
JT Well, in Abraham you get a family taken up. In him God has a people, an [p. 218] inheritance.
JJ Where would you place Abraham in the epistle to the Ephesians?
JT “The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory”; he comes in there. In connection with Abraham you have the God of glory. In result God has an inheritance, as we see in verse 18.
AMH What is your thought as to counsel?
JT What comes out in the world to come, “the fulness of times”, is in keeping with eternal purpose; “He works all things according to the counsel of his own will” (verse 11).
AMH Then what is the difference between the “good pleasure of his will” and the “counsel of his own will”?
JT Both refer, I think, to the way things are worked out. The “good pleasure of his will” is evidently what He finds in us in this respect, as we had this morning. Then there is “the mystery of his will”. I think the will is brought in to show that nothing can interfere with it; that all goes through. We get the family idea in chapter 3, that is, every family in the heavens and the earth is named of the Father. That would bring us down to Abraham in the types, but what I think we might see here, is the intelligence that is alluded to and what God has in the saints: “the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints” (verse 18).
EuR In connection with what goes through, have you in mind that God would give us the sense in our service, of being linked up with what He had in His mind before the foundation of the world, and what He will display in the world to come?
JT Yes, that it is a question of His purpose and the counsel of His will, all is in keeping with eternal thoughts, only that it belongs to the sphere of testimony. It is on the way from one eternity, so to speak, to another; the fulness of times is the result of all the testimonies.
CAC Do you connect this with what was spoken of this morning as the dip [p. 219] down?
JT That is what I was thinking. Redemption was reached: “in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of offences”, and then the entire will of God is worked out.
Ques Is that connected with Revelation 10:7 “the mystery of God also shall be completed”?
JT Pretty much so, only Ephesians touches our intelligence in regard to what God has in His mind, and what He works out in the sphere of testimony before entering the eternal state. The “administration of the fulness of times” is the culmination of testimony on the part of God, what He can do: “to head up all things in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth”.
AMH What is your point as to that?
JT Well, I think ‘things’ are used to convey the thoughts of God: “the invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made”, (Romans 1:20). They refer to the concrete thoughts of God, in whomsoever they may be seen.
CAC Have you in mind maturity of a spiritual character?
JT That is what I was thinking. That is what God is working for; there is the development of intelligence in His school as in Enoch, so that we please Him, and there is the development of sympathy with Him that it arouses in our hearts while in a world of corruption. Enoch had the testimony that He pleased God before his translation, but he prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads”, (Jude 14). And then the working out of life, not in a childish way, but in a mature way, regarding each other in affection. Hence, in the type, the ark was full of intelligent varieties of life. I think it would have been one of the most interesting studies for any one who understood life to have gone through the ark and have seen, not life maturing, but [p. 220] the life matured.
CAC So that there is all the substance for glory to God in the assembly.
Ques Would that maturity be developed in every one in eternity?
JT It is to be developed now or never. Do not put anything forward or you will be very small.
DLH “That we may be no longer babes”, (Ephesians 4:14).
JT Yes; “until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”, (Ephesians 4:13).
JHT In the ark there were seven of every clean beast, and two of every unclean; why do the unclean come in?
JT It is not unclean in the sense of what is evil, but rather that they would be of some use. They would not be carried over if they were bad, but the sense is conveyed of the great preponderance of what was to be for God in the way of sacrifice.
WRP You said just now that you get the thought of maturity of life in the ark and also of variety of life; would you say something about that?
JT I was saying that maturity of intelligence was seen in Enoch. He walked with God for three hundred years. What an experience that was! What an opportunity for acquiring a knowledge of God, and God was pleased with his companionship for He took him to Himself. But then the idea of variety is not there. Variety is in Noah, the full result from the creation in the way of life; and that, I apprehend, would now be the working out of affection.
WRP Is variety seen in developed affections?
JT “In your faith have also virtue, in virtue knowledge, in knowledge temperance, in temperance endurance, in endurance godliness, in godliness brotherly love, in brotherly love love”; the latter is mature love, (2 Peter 1:[p. 221] 5 - 7).
CAC Is it not referred to in this epistle as the “life of God”? (Ephesians 4:18).
JT That is a very remarkable expression; perhaps you would tell us something about it.
CAC I suppose the “life of God” would be love in activity.
JT Therefore the unregenerate are alienated from it “by reason of the ignorance which is in them”. That “life of God” is here amongst the brethren; it is moral; the life of God in this sense has come within the range of men; but unregenerate men are alienated from it. Would you think that?
CAC Well, yes; and in that life the inheritance can be possessed and enjoyed.
FHB Do you understand that God is working now to form that which is to be carried over, the present work of God?
JT Quite so, that is the maturity that this epistle aims at.
FSM How is that maturity developed? What would be conducive to its development?
JT I think what was quoted from Peter helps, having one thing in another; having in your faith virtue, and in virtue knowledge, temperance, endurance, godliness and brotherly love, and then love. I think love there, is the height of maturity; that is to say, you correspond with God. It is in having these things, one in the other, that we develop maturity; hence, brotherly love is balanced by love; love is of God.
SJBC You would not be restful with brotherly love. There is a danger of loving one another more than God. You reach God in love.
JT Love is the “bond of perfectness” (Colossians 3:14) and it is reached thus in a mature way, according to Peter’s instruction.
WL Does it suggest that all those things presented in Peter are there in germ, but not [p. 222] developed?
JT I think it is by having the one in the other, you develop perfectness. It is not exactly that you could have faith without love, but the point is you have all the things in relation to each other.
FHB That would give the idea of a complete man.
JT I think it would. We shall see later how we are to be imitators of God, to “walk in love, even as the Christ loved us” (Ephesians 5:2); there is correspondence with God. I think there is a great deal of immaturity. Whilst there is a good bit of light amongst us, growth is what the Lord would impress upon us, so that if He carries us through it will be as mature.
Ques Had Mary in John 12 arrived at it through discipline, especially that of chapter 11?
JT I should say so; she is marked not only by love but by intelligence as to what she does.
Ques Would you say the living creatures in the ark convey the thought of maturity?
JT They were capable of multiplication when the time came, but not in the ark; there is no evidence of any multiplication or diminution, it is just what was there in a mature way. So spiritually we may visit the ark and we see the varieties of life going through. I believe that is what would be attractive as a testimony to others; it is the variety of life.
FSM It is significant as to Enoch and Noah that it was said of each of them that he walked with God. Is that an essential quality for both heavenly character and spiritual maturity?
JT Quite so; and the animals came to Noah. It is remarkable the sympathetic link there was; with the dove particularly; she returned to him and he took her unto him in the ark.
WW Do they suggest the matured thoughts coming into the minds and hearts of the saints?
JT Quite so. I think the “things in the heavens and the things upon the earth” refer to certain thoughts of [p. 223] God concretely presented. We have the idea of a family later but the things in the heavens and on the earth headed up in Christ, would mean a mature, intelligent state of things. “In him”, it says. Those thoughts are being, so to speak, brought out concretely; now in mystery, but presently to be seen in full maturity headed up in Christ.
AMH Why is the thought of “heading up”, in Christ?
JT It refers to maturity, what we are speaking of. If I am to be headed up I have respect for the idea of headship. In David’s ministry you get that emphasised. It is remarkable the number of times you get the word ‘head’ in 1 Chronicles; and in the last chapter of the book it is applied to God. David says, “thou art exalted as Head above all”, (1 Chronicles 29:11).
Therefore, the “mystery of his will ... for the administration of the fulness of times; to head up all things in the Christ” (Ephesians 1:9,10) would mean a developed state of things, in which the thoughts of God are presented concretely. It is no longer their being apprehended in the material creation, the “invisible things of him” (Romans 1:20) will be seen in their full significance headed up in Christ. Everything that men are occupied with, that may have had origin with God, will be seen then in its true meaning.
AMH It is maturity corresponding with headship.
JT That is the thought.
JHT Is that why you have seven adults in the ark corresponding to Noah in headship?
JT You mean the three sons and their wives and Noah’s wife; quite so. There you get maturity and we can be assured that every creature in the ark was in keeping with that. There is not the slightest evidence of any rebellious conditions. I believe the idea of headship permeated everything.
ECR So, would the idea of attraction be seen [p. 224] in the creatures coming two by two unto Noah into the ark?
JT They came to the person, and so the dove came back to him and he took her to him into the ark.
PL It says, “They went to Noah, into the ark, two and two of all flesh, in which was the breath of life”, (Genesis 7:15). Would that be suggestive of the movements of life?
SJBC I suppose that power of attraction is open to the weakest believer.
JT Is not that a leading feature of John’s ministry, the principle of coming to Christ? “No one can come to me except the Father who has sent me draw him”, (John 6:44). We come under spiritual influence. John’s ministry makes Christ an Object of attraction on the principle of life.
MWB In which way is variety of life developed?
JT Well, we have to go back to the roots. God created variety, and, spiritually, every root for God must be in Christ. Take David. Christ is the “root of David”.
CAC Then the variety is distributed over the whole company of saints; “to every one of us”. There is variety coming out in the gift of Christ to each one of us.
EuR Why in chapter 2 does he take the Jew and the gentile back to their past state at the beginning?
JT I think it is to bring out what he had already started with in the second part of chapter 1 — the power of God. There is the “knowledge of him”, which is a thing we should notice; that we should have “the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him”; (verse 17) and then, “what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength, in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead”.
CAC Does that bring in the thought of the “Syrian ready to perish”? Does chapter 2 rather take up that side of things?
JT I think so, both in verse 1 and verse 11. So the first half of chapter 2 is to show the evidence of the power of God in those who, as it says, were “dead in your offences and sins — in which ye once walked according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience: among whom we also all once had our conversation in the lusts of our flesh, doing what the flesh and the thoughts willed to do, and were children, by nature, of wrath, even as the rest: but God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love wherewith he loved us, (we too being dead in offences,) has quickened us with the Christ”. That is a question of the grip of evil in which we were held, and the power of God taking us out of that; and then going to the full height of blessing, as it says, “and has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus”. So that, in the first part of chapter 1, we have the will of God, and then in the second part the power of God applied to Christ and in chapter 2 to us, so that we are seated in the heavenlies. It is not here exactly a question of our eternal portion, but in view of testimony, as verses 7 - 10 show.
EuR In what way does seated in the heavenlies have in view the present testimony?
JT It is to lend lustre to us as down here. It is “in Christ Jesus”, notice, not ‘with Christ’. It is with one another in that exalted position, in the status of “in Christ Jesus”; heaven is very conversant with the idea of the anointing, and our position there in Christ alludes, I believe, to the great dignity we have in the anointing. It is not a question yet of the family, but of the place we have in the anointing, which heaven would understand. The angelic companies understand that; and it is to give heavenly lustre and dignity to us down here. That, I think, is what chapter 2 means.
[p. 226] Ques Is that connected with divine sovereignty?
JT It is, surely. It speaks here of great love wherewith God loved us and His rich mercy. He has in view the setting out of a testimony in us here, now, and in the future.
FHB You spoke of an Ephesian christian being able to take up the Corinthian position in testimony; is that the thought?
JT That is what we may see. It is persons — not yet a family, as I understand it, but rather the dignity connected with the anointing in heaven, our being in Christ and there unitedly; so that there is not a created being in heaven, that would not respect us. It is the status we have, as I may say, officially.
WJH Stephen with the face of an angel would be understood by the angels. The dignity of the anointing was seen in his face.
JT Was not the heavenly dignity there in the most palpable way before the council, the superiority of the man? It was “as the face of an angel”, (Acts 6:15).
MWB Some of us have linked testimony with the present, and display with the future. How do you link testimony with the future?
JT It will be seen in the assembly. You have here “display in the coming ages”, I apprehend that in the coming world we shall be dignified in an official way. “In Christ” is our status, and this chapter gives us that: “in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus”. There is also what goes with it, the glory of God, which would mean the divine nature worked out in us. In the assembly coming out of heaven there certainly is testimony. I believe the members of the church will be employed universally, but in this dignified way, as in the anointing.
CAC Is not that really essential to the body and the habitation of God at the end of the chapter?
JT I think it is. I do not see how you can have the habitation of God down here, without this dignity. It [p. 227] marked the tabernacle, and it marked the temple. The tabernacle was dignified by the anointing and the temple by the wood, gold, etc.
PL Was this thought set out in wisdom in Proverbs 8:23? “I was set up (or anointed) from eternity”.
JT Yes. If God comes in to operate there must be that. It is the idea of representation, and I think the greatest thought of it for us, is in this chapter where He has “raised us up together”. That brings in a peculiar link between us, “has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus”. Think of the myriads thus seen! They are sitting. It is their place and there is not a dignitary in heaven who will not regard them accordingly.
AMH That bears on our position down here. If we are to form the habitation of God, this necessarily enters into it, as also into our service in the millennium.
GWW Why does it say in chapter 1 that we are blessed “with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ”, and here that we are made to “sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus”?
JT I suppose “Christ Jesus” has a bearing down here in view of testimony. “In Christ” carries with it the idea of status or dignity that we have in heaven; and in which we are blessed.
I think the Ephesian feature enters into Corinthians. If I sit down to partake of the Lord’s supper as in Corinthians, abstractly I am an Ephesian; I never lose sight of that. I do not need to bring that forward at once. As we may see in Deuteronomy 26 the basket is set down by the priest. Well, there it is, but immediately I am talking about the Syrian. I am, however, going to speak about the basket.
JOS “Created in Christ Jesus”; would that be the basket?
JT I think so. Notice, it is “in Christ Jesus”. The new man is “created in truthful righteousness and holiness”, (Ephesians 4:24). That is not a question of status but of quality.
DLH When the man puts down his basket, does he not say I am in the good of that now?
JT I think he does, and he has got the first-fruits there too. I understand it is that I hold myself in that light, and the Lord as Priest takes that on; but it is so to speak, in abeyance until the time comes in the meeting to bring it forward, but it is there all the time.
EuR Does it involve the work of God?
JT It does, but it is the believer taken up in the light of counsel. Therefore, you are a sort of dual being, not exactly dual personality, but you are viewed as in Christ abstractly, and, therefore, there is nothing attached to you at all as to responsibility. It is important, if I am to be in the assembly in the light of eternity, that I know how to analyse as to what belongs to that, and what belongs to the position of responsibility here. So I leave that, and I come to this, and then I go back to that. That is the order of the assembly. The basket is taken out of his hand and set down by the altar; and then he speaks about his father and about Egypt, and then he goes back to the basket, and he worships. That is to say, he worships in relation to the basket and what is in it, and that is what God seeks. He wants us, not in a mixed condition down here, but in the light of purpose.
JHT At the close of that chapter in Deuteronomy it says, “that thou shouldest be a holy people to Jehovah thy God, as he hath said” (verse 19). Is that the public result?
JT Quite so. At the end of chapter 2 we see how all this position in heaven enters into what is for God here. In verse 18, it is said, “For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”: that is how we stand down here; and then further, “ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints,
and of the household of God”. You can see how the status we get in heaven enters into this.
WW As to verse 16 — “and might reconcile both in one body to God by the cross” — I was thinking that involves the saints being set together for the good pleasure of God.
JT You will observe it is “by the cross”; Ephesians gives you reconciliation in connection with the greatest reproach in this world. It cuts at the roots of all special links amongst the saints and it is “in one body”. This means that we are linked up in a positive way, but under the greatest possible reproach.
HH Would you say a word as to the end of this chapter 2; the habitation of God in the Spirit is a present reality, is it not?
JT That is how it stands. “So then ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the corner-stone, in whom all the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord; in whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit”. We have the general thought up to the last verse, but in verse 22 I think he has in mind the position of the church among the gentiles: “in whom ye also are built together”. It is the general position of Jew and gentile first, but I think the gentiles are the habitation of God by themselves, which would continue. We can hardly speak today of a habitation of God formed of Jew and gentile, but we can speak of “ye also”, that is to say, gentile believers.
CAC That is very interesting.
HH God has still His habitation on earth in spite of the failure there is at the present time.
JT And even although there may be few Jews which is perhaps so now. It was not so then; they probably formed the major part then, but now they are hardly able [p. 230] to be found.
HH This epistle was addressed to a gentile assembly.
JT Quite so.
Ques What were you going to say on verse 18?
JT Only to point out that we have come to that. “For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”. It is the principle of access in a positive way by the Spirit. It includes Hebrews 10, but goes beyond it. Verses 17 and 18 shew that Christ has brought God to all in the gospel and that through Him we have access to the Father.
EuR Why do you get in verse 13, “But now in Christ Jesus ye who once were afar off are become nigh by the blood of the Christ”?
JT “In Christ Jesus” there is our status here on earth, the blood having removed all that would keep us at a distance. “In Christ Jesus” gives the gentiles a place of equality with the Jews.