2 SAMUEL 17
JT It would be helpful to keep in mind the secret system established by David in the city, of which we spoke; that is, two priests and their sons, and Hushai. This chapter reveals the wisdom of it and the success of it. The apparent deception that marked Hushai is to be allowed for because of the lack of intelligence in those days, corresponding with Rahab’s case and others.
Ques What have you to say about Ahithophel in the end of chapter 16? “And the counsel of Ahithophel, which he counselled in those days, was as if a man had inquired of the word of God: so was all the counsel of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom” (2 Samuel 16:23).
JT It was regarded, I suppose, as an oracle, the word ‘oracle’ alluding to a medium between God and man.
Ques Is there not certainty, however, where the word of God is given to any of the prophets or men of God in the Old Testament? It was never accompanied by an ‘if’ or condition; it was “Jehovah said”, or a certain man enquired and “This is what Jehovah said”.
JT I suppose “as if” here would mean that he was not really an oracle, but was regarded in that way.
Rem Emphasis is laid upon the fact that David and Absalom so regarded his counsel.
JT I think to show that it was not rightly appraised; it was too highly appraised because it did not go beyond the wisdom of this world; it was foolishness. The wisdom of this world is said to be foolishness. It may have served well earlier when he was right with David, but now it is exposed.
Ques Did it portend failure at the start for Absalom and his army?
JT I suppose from an ordinary military standpoint it was good advice, but God frustrated it; it became foolishness.
Rem It is called “good” counsel in verse 14.
JT That is, ‘good’ in that sense, quite so.
Ques Would you liken it to the wisdom of the unjust steward?
JT The man’s lord commended him and then the Lord Himself says, “For the sons of this world are, for their own generation, more prudent than the sons of light”, Luke 16:8. That is, they do excel at times; but David had asked of Jehovah: “I pray thee turn the counsel of Ahithophel into foolishness”, 2 Samuel 15:31. That is, I think, how the wisdom of this world is capable of being turned into foolishness, by the wisdom that excelleth, the wisdom of God, which Hushai represented. The best that the world can afford, as you might say, in the way of wisdom, is capable of being thus defeated. The Greeks sought after it, but at best it is foolishness. God was not in it. There is no reference to God in what Ahithophel says.
Ques Would you say there should have been, seeing the ark was [p. 160] there?
JT Quite so. There should have been; but so far as I can see there is not. David had said of the ark, “If I shall find favour in the eyes of Jehovah, he will bring me again, and show me it, and its habitation”, 2 Samuel 15:25. Then he appealed to God to defeat the wisdom or counsel of Ahithophel. It was good from the human standpoint, but the best of that sort of wisdom is foolishness with God.
Rem The princes of this world made a great display of wisdom when they crucified the Lord of glory, but the resurrection brought it all to naught.
JT It says so expressly. They did not understand the hidden wisdom that comes out with Hushai. Zoan represents the wisdom of the world. Isaiah speaks of it, “They are but fools, the princes of Zoan”, Isaiah 19:11, and they were foolish although they were skilled in this world’s wisdom. We are told that Hebron was built seven years before that town. That is what is alluded to in 1 Corinthians 2, the “hidden wisdom” (verse 7), that was before the wisdom of Zoan and superior to it. So I think Ahithophel here is representative of the best that there is in human wisdom — so near, that it was like an oracle. But then it failed, it is simply rejected, it does not accomplish the end in view.
Rem According to the end of verse 14, God has His end in view.
JT That is the thing, there is no possibility of defeat of the hidden wisdom. Of course, God ordered this advice here, and it was good counsel from an ordinary point of view, but it is defeatable. Not so the hidden wisdom — that goes through.
Ques Is that the bearing you are giving this secret combination?
JT I think that is what comes out. Christ is the wisdom of God according to 1 Corinthians 1:24. The wisdom of God extends back before the creation, it was there as the creation began. Wisdom says [p. 161] she was by Jehovah in what He was doing. The kind of wisdom that Ahithophel had was not there; it was excellent so far as it went, but it arose from human skill, man’s wisdom. I think in 1 Corinthians we get the contrast to that, that is, what was before the world and what the princes of this world had. Zoan represents their headquarters.
Rem As over against the secret side which succeeds there is this public side, which may have gone even further than Ahithophel intended. “They spread a tent for Absalom upon the roof”, 2 Samuel 16:22. It was a public matter, as over against what was working in the city in a secret way.
JT Ahithophel’s counsel was good, it is called good here, but only in a relative sense. It could not be said to be good over against the wisdom of God. The wisdom of God had designed this whole matter and Hushai was there, belonging to the secret service. There is a secret service and a public service. The public service in a country would be such things as the Cabinet and the President, but there is also a secret service in every country. So it is that the epistle to the Corinthians contemplates the secret service, the “hidden wisdom”, as it says. The secret service is hidden in the mystery, that is, it is a mysterious thing; “in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge”, Colossians 2:3.
Rem I suppose it must have looked at Colosse as if philosophy and vain deceit were really wonderful. There must have been danger of the saints being taken in by it.
JT That was the danger at Colosse. I suppose if we had been at this meeting with Ahithophel we would have said, It would be hard to overcome that counsel. But it is overcome and that is the point; the secret service of God will overcome the public service of man, however well ramified it is and however much education, experience and ability it may [p. 162] display, for it is short of the real thing. This counsel was not an oracle of God.
Rem If Ahithophel had been spiritually minded he would have detected that Hushai was giving counsel for his undoing.
JT That is really the case, the mystery of God is for the undoing of the world’s system. There is nothing disloyal to the powers that be in saying that, because they are included in the Gentile monarchies and are part of the divine scheme. The thing came out in a secret way, Daniel read the secrets. It required him to make the thing clear that the Gentile monarchies belonged to the secret service of God — the Babylonish, Persian, Grecian and Roman. Therefore any remarks we are making now are not in the least disloyal to the powers that be because they are just provisional; they abstractly do not belong to the world system, it is a great mistake to assume that they do. They are forced by God to exercise their power for the benefit of the testimony, so that this secret service is no disloyalty to them, it is aiming at the overthrow of the world in a moral sense, what is antichristian. The secret service of God and the mystery are opposed to all that.
Rem It is a power that extends beyond the government of this world. This philosophy and vain deceit belonged to Satan’s world, it came from there.
JT It did; that great system was really designed I am sure, to compete with the secret service of God that He intended to inaugurate.
Rem I suppose if the government interfered with the religious affairs it would be a different matter.
JT God is directly against antichrist. The mystery is the mystery of the grace of God, and it is a secret state of things. If the government elects to attack what is of God, as Nebuchadnezzar and others that followed him did, then of course it comes [p. 163] to issue with God. But the abstract government that they are exercising is of God.
Rem Those of the captivity were enjoined to submit because these powers were just an instrumentality in the hands of God to effect discipline.
JT There is a remarkable illustration in Jeremiah 24 showing that the first captivity under Nebuchadnezzar secured a constructive element: the king of Judah, the princes, the craftsmen and the smiths.
They were constructive. God says they are like good figs and His hand will be over them for good. They are subject to the government of God. As submitting we are regarded as good figs. Those who remained, refusing this discipline, were called bad figs.
Rem When Daniel was giving the secret of the image with the head of gold he did not carry the history up to antichrist’s time, only to the stone destroying the last kingdom.
JT That is not strictly antichristian, it is only a condition that government has come to; the kingdom is still there, the iron and clay.
Ques Will the final action be the destruction of this monarchy?
JT They are all of one piece. “These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth”, Zechariah 6:5. The head of gold, breast and arms of silver, the brass, iron, and iron and clay, all these represent the mind of God until Christ comes.
Rem Antichrist becomes political as well as military.
JT And God is openly against him. Absalom was antichristian in principle, but these four monarchies are not, they really belong to the secret service; God has them for His own purposes. Not everybody sees that, but when we are told to pray for them that is what is meant.
Rem The stone cut out without hands will break [p. 164] in pieces every other government; we carry that in our minds.
JT It is well for the brethren to ponder this line of things because it will help us in these critical times. Pilate is a good example, he said what was right in his official capacity, he found no fault in the Lord and he said, “Dost thou not know that I have authority to release thee and have authority to crucify thee?” (John 19:10). He got his power from God.
Ques Between the captivity and the return again to the official kingdom in the millennium, is the secret service operating in these four great monarchies?
JT Quite so, and the salvation of the original nation that had the kingdom and forfeited it by its wickedness, lay in submitting to the new provisional order made by God in Nebuchadnezzar which was seen secretly and interpreted by Daniel. Nebuchadnezzar was converted so as to enhance the whole position; he is the head of gold.
Rem The antichrist becomes a usurper. Absalom takes the place belonging to another.
JT These Gentile monarchies began with Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar was converted and enjoined everybody to worship God. He knew that all power belonged to God, he was forced to learn that.
Ques By extension, does that apply even today in conditions we see in certain countries?
JT The first thing to see is the abstract idea of government in every one of them. It is of God. In Acts 5 there were three agencies employed. The first was the angel who opened the door of the prison and said, “Go ye and stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life”, Acts 5:20. “All the words”, of that life must be protected and made known in this world. The second time they were arrested the people were used to protect them and the officers could not do anything; and then thirdly [p. 165] Gamaliel was used. So that the testimony is set free through these agencies. All these are of God.
Rem Had the princes of this world known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
JT “Had they known”, but they would not be like you and me, for only true Christians know the wisdom of God.
Rem From the standpoint of wisdom they would not have done it either, apart from conversion, for had they known it, they were thwarting their own ends.
JT It is a remarkable way of putting it. They are the princes of this world and are said to be fools. “The place of a skull” — Golgotha was that. All the wisdom of this world was there and it was nothing but a skull. All the wisdom of God was in the One crucified, but they had nothing in their skulls.
Rem Had Absalom known he would not have allowed the wisdom of Ahithophel to be defeated.
Ques How do you view some of our brethren suffering at the hands of the government in other countries today?
JT It is hard to say. Of course, the Lord suffered at their hands. Take Pilate, viewing him abstractly he was right. He said, “I find no fault in him”. How did he say that? He was under the right influence of what he represented. But presently other things came up and we see that he was a corrupt man personally; when these things were thrown into the scale against Christ he gave way; but abstractly as a governor he was right. His wife said, “I have suffered today many things in a dream because of him”. (Matthew 27:19) She must have been in some way affected by Christ Himself.
Ques In this same connection is there a similarity in what the thief says: “Dost thou too not fear God?” and, “we indeed justly, for we receive the [p. 166] just recompense of what we have done”, Luke 23:40,41. I was wondering if that enters into the abstract idea?
JT The kingdom is in his mind, “Thy kingdom”. He belonged to the under-world and he suffered rightly; he did not justify himself.
Rem He was accepting the rule of the powers that be, admitting he was suffering justly.
JT Yes, and he told the other man. He virtually said to the Lord, You have a kingdom: “Remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom”, Luke 23:42. “In it”, that is, When You come and rule the world, remember me.
Rem These two men on either side of Jesus were really there rightly in regard of God’s government.
JT The government of God put them there. One man accepted it; he belonged to the under-world, and the under-world will not accept government if they can avoid it. He was accepting it, the rule of God’s kingdom in the sense of the four monarchies; but he saw another kingdom and he says to the Lord, When You come in Your kingdom, remember me. He came round to the right thought. The real thing is the accepting of the government that is, and this man recognised that whatever government put him on that cross was right.
Rem With regard to the discipline of the people of God, we were noticing recently how this worked out in connection with Hazael. Elisha tells him the king is going to die and that he is going to reign in his stead and do evil to the children of Israel (2 Kings 8:12). He is going to do all this damage but there was a reason for it, it was God. Hazael was only the instrumentality.
JT Yes, because Hazael was anointed of God according to the instruction to Elisha.
Rem So that in these matters it is not a dictator or a ruler, it is God, and the sooner the people of [p. 167] God recognise that the more quickly the door will be opened.
JT We cannot be sure whether they have rejected the government of God. Do they see the abstract idea of government that the thief saw?
“We receive the just recompense of what we have done”. (Luke 23:41) He recognises the Roman government. But here is another king, who put Him there? The same power. He, was not suffering justly. Pilate failed, because he justified Jesus at the beginning, showing what this government is in the four monarchies. Even the watchmen at the grave are made to do what is right.
Rem And then there was the inscription over the cross in three languages; it was Pilate who gave orders for this to be done.
JT God undoubtedly made him do it. These men in power are governed by bit and bridle. Pilate writes that Jesus is King of the Jews, there it is and he will not change it. God did that. The thief went further: he said, “When thou comest in thy kingdom”, Luke 23:42. He had light that that Man was a King and had a kingdom.
Ques Was the Lord subject to Pilate as representative of the powers that be?
JT He suffered first of all vicariously. We must see clearly that there is no suffering attaching to Him save what is vicarious. He suffered for righteousness personally, but not from God; He suffered from God in a vicarious sense only.
Rem So that suffering there is suffering for righteousness.
JT It is only when He is taking man’s place on the cross, we cannot say anything else.
Rem At the same time He was personally never more pleasurable to God.
Ques As to the tendency of some of us to be National — how would you balance the thought of the [p. 168] powers that be in the abstract sense with the tendency towards nationalism?
JT That has, of course, to be watched, because the national feeling is just natural and objectionable; hence we are told to pray for all those that are in authority. The whole government of the world is our interest.
Rem Then we are to respect the British power and the French and Italian and German too, as all one sort of thing, details of which are employed in the secret service system in order to work out God’s plan.
JT And you pray for them all. I was thinking just this week what a place of dignity the saints have. Here are these powers appearing one after another, but here are the saints, and heaven is looking down on the saints; God is looking at the saints and paying attention to them. So that “the Lord Jehovah will do nothing, but he revealeth his secrets unto his servants the prophets”, Amos 3:7. That gives you the idea that He has His people here and He is looking toward us and listening to us. That is what turns the scales.
Ques Would it be right to say that what God does in regard to the governments is not dependent upon the prayers of the saints, but rather that He is seeking that the prayers of the saints may be in accordance with His mind?
JT God intends that; but then, God can carry on His government by Himself. The living creatures and the elders in the midst of the throne are with God; but He looks towards us, and I think He has great pleasure in the meetings for prayer in all these matters.
Rem God said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?” (Genesis 18:17). This would seem to indicate that it was to be done whether Abraham knew or not, but that God would give the saints an [p. 169] indication of what He is doing so that there might be sympathy.
JT Abraham really is a foreshadowing of this particular period in which we are, the period of the world’s reconciliation. It is held on the principle of reconciliation, and Abraham prays for the king; that gives you the clue. God is on His way, as it were. He and the two men, three men it says, and they come by Abraham’s tent. He is not the objective, because it is the time of government and God is appealed to as the Judge of all the earth. He is on His way somewhere and He comes by Abraham: that is the position, and then it is a question of what He finds. He will go on by Himself, because three would mean completeness. But what did He find? If He were to come by this city what would He find. He might not find anything He could use. We may be able to preach the gospel, but we may not be able to enter into these thoughts about the government of this world. If we are not equal to that He will have to go on. If He finds only intelligence enough for preachings and readings, etc., He will make the most of that. He did not say anything to Abraham about Sodom at first, it is a question of what He finds. Will He find Abraham at his tent door ready to do everything that was right? He asks for Sarah, as if to say, I will say something about her, and that is often what God does; He will tell us something about the church and pass on. He asks about Sarah and tells something about Sarah, that is, the church; and then about Isaac, that is, Christ, He says something about Him; but then He goes on. Abraham says, I will go with you. To go with Him, that is the secret of the disclosure as to what God is going to do. And Jehovah says, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?”, Genesis 18:17. Why did He not say that before? I think it is because Abraham went with Him and interceded for the world.
[p. 170] Rem There was prayer for Peter but there is no reference to any for James.
JT That is a good illustration, but with Peter the assembly was not equal to the thing. It was a poor situation. You recall that when Peter came there was nobody to open the door; and the one that understands and would open comes in for persecution. But here is a striking case because Genesis 18 is a record of the earth. “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing? Since Abraham shall indeed become a great and mighty nation; and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him. For I know him that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice, in order that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham what he hath spoken of him”, Genesis 18:17 - 19. So that God does not hide from Abraham what He is going to do; this man must be brought into the matter; he is worthy of it and he is equal to it.
Rem Abraham is able to intercede for Sodom and Gomorrah but he does not succeed.
JT But destruction would have been deferred a long time if there had been only ten righteous men. There is hope that God will continue to intervene in matters today.
Rem The prayer meeting really becomes a test. Certain brethren do not come. You wonder what the gospel really means to them.
JT They do not come to meetings like these either, where God gives light. They are not going with Him at all.
Rem So it says here: “Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grievous, I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come to me; and if not, I will know it”, Genesis 18:20,21. And then there is a long conversation there, as if [p. 171] Jehovah does not move from the place until that prayer meeting is over. He is not going to move in regard to these national events until the prayer meeting is over. We are praying for fourteen hours, almost continuously, I suppose.
JT Yes, seventeen hours, the world round.
Ques Would you say a little more about sonship? In this case that seems to be the test that Jehovah applied.
JT Yes, He enquires about Sarah and gives a promise about Isaac. Sarah is hardly equal to things, but she is there ready, within hearing. She does not bring the cakes and she laughs about Isaac, but Abraham still stood before Jehovah and Jehovah went on. Abraham has the place of intercessor for the whole world. And why not? He is heir of the world! Why should not we have that place? It is a question of the brethren seeing the position. The time of these four monarchies is under God. Daniel gets the mind of God and the first ruler becomes a converted man so as to enhance the position.
Rem As over against the kind of rulers to whom the apostles had to say: “If it be righteous before God to listen to you rather than to God, judge ye”, Acts 4:19.
JT Yes; they are really dealing with the high priest and his family according to verses 6 and 7. The position of Annas and those with him was the authorised position, but they were really against the Roman Government, while the Roman representative was for Christ. Their position was untenable. They were under judgment and wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.
Ques “Be in subjection therefore to every human institution for the Lord’s sake”, 1 Peter 2:13. How far does that go?
JT That would have to be read in the light of [p. 172] the passage. The same passage tells us to honour the king as supreme.
Ques I would like to ask about the prayers of three different classes: of the wicked, of nominal believers, and then of those whom these five men would represent, as to God hearing them. One noticed in the recent crisis how everybody seemed to be praying, and there were those who seemed to be intelligent about it. What do you think would be the effect of the prayers of these various persons?
JT I am not inclined to attach much importance to the prayers of persons who, in a crisis, turn to God and forget Him otherwise.
Rem It says in Ezekiel that He does not hear them, these wicked people.
JT The prayer of the wicked is an abomination. It is almost entirely a matter of religious feeling, as the heathen would pray to their deity in a crisis. Abraham “is a prophet, and he will pray for thee”, we get in Genesis 20: 7.
Rem The saints pray in view of God’s interests.
JT That is it. Abraham represents the thing: “He is a prophet and he will pray for thee”. Psalm 105 opens up what such men were in those days: “Touch not mine anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm”, Psalm 105:15. They represented God, and that is the position now. It is the anointed priests and prophets, the saints viewed in that way, who have access to God. Abraham was the friend of God.
Rem Perhaps more royalty enters into our prayer meetings than we are aware of. We are before God in kingly dignity and royalty.
JT We are said to be a royal priesthood.
Rem The prayer of the righteous man has much power. It is in operation already.
Rem In Revelation 5 it says, “Thou ... hast ... made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth”, Revelation 5:10.
JT [p. 173] Who are the speakers there? The living creatures and the elders. “And they sing a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open its seals; because thou hast been slain, and hast redeemed to God”, Revelation 5:9. That includes all of us here; the elders and the living creatures refer to the saints.
Ques What about the expression, “a kingdom, priests to his God and Father”, Revelation 1:6?
JT That is another thought. The one we have just read is “kings and priests”, but the other is “a kingdom”, which, I suppose, would mean that the saints exercise rule in the kingdom. The kingdom is in the hands of the assembly now, our care meetings and all that are on kingdom lines; it is the government of God worked out among us.
Ques Does 1 Timothy 2 include all that we have been saying about prayer, assembly prayer and household prayer?
JT I think so. “I exhort therefore, first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made for all men”, 1 Timothy 2:1. That is the assembly. But it is the men that do it audibly. “I will therefore that the men pray in every place” (1 Timothy 2:8).
Rem Intercession on high is for the saints, and we in turn pray and intercede for the powers that be.
JT Quite so. This passage is very important. You might say that the intercessory position of the assembly is seen in Timothy.
Ques In the households where there are husband and wife, do both pray?
JT Not audibly. “I will therefore that the men pray in every place, lifting up pious hands”, 1 Timothy 2:8. I take that to be in the house and out of it, wherever men are. Of course, women can pray secretly, and with the husband to a certain extent. But that passage in Timothy means that wherever prayer is openly made and brothers and sisters are there, the men do it.
[p. 174] Ques That does not set aside the scripture, “that your prayers be not hindered”, 1 Peter 3:7?
JT The wife is with the husband, of course. The idea is that men are to pray publicly.
Ques What is the function of the kingly priesthood?
JT The holy priesthood is to offer up sacrifices, but the kingly is to “set forth the excellencies of him who has called you”, 1 Peter 2:9. It is more our attitude towards men in blessing; we bless and curse not.
The priest blessed Israel.
Rem Jacob blessed Pharaoh, the greater blesses the lesser.
JT That is what we are as representative of God.
Ques Where does the wife pray?
JT She prays with her husband in spirit, and the whole family, but not audibly. That is the way I read that passage.
Rem In these things there is always confirmation in Scripture; Hannah prayed, but there was no sound.
Ques Do you think that the wisdom from above and the hidden wisdom are equivalent thoughts?
JT Quite so. James stresses the side that, “If any one of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God”, James 1:5. The hidden wisdom is a very exalted thought, “that hidden wisdom which God had predetermined before the ages for our glory”, 1 Corinthians 2:7. We are to be enveloped in that, marked by that. I have been impressed with that this week. There are the powers that be, God has appointed them too, but we are the ones that He is attending to; He will listen to us.
Rem “In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed”, Genesis 12:3; that is a remarkable setting. Would that apply to ourselves?
JT We will suppose that you know that you are going to rule a country; well, everything in that country is of interest to you from that point onward.
[p. 175] And Abraham had the mind of God, he was heir to the world, he would think of the world from that standpoint; and that is what is meant by the world being in reconciliation.
Rem Reconciliation in that sense can really only be understood by sons.
Ques Is the kingdom of the heavens hidden?
JT You see how the Lord looks at the field as having purchased it in that way. That is how He is operating today in the world because the treasure is there.
Rem The world held in reconciliation would mean that God is favourable to it.
Ques Does James indicate that the title “friend of God” was earned, so to speak, through the exercise of faith in offering up Isaac?
JT I suppose that would come into it, but I think Genesis 18 brings out the concrete position more than any other: “Shall I hide from Abraham”, verse 17. You get the idea that he is equal to this as God’s friend. I am sure that what we have had before us as to the secret service and the public service of God needs to be impressed upon our minds.