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MOUNTAINS AROUND JERUSALEM (1)

JT I have been thinking of the gospel of Matthew, but not in a consecutive way. Jerusalem is mentioned peculiarly in Matthew. The introduction of the assembly in it implies that it supersedes Jerusalem, but carries forward the divine thoughts set out in Jerusalem. So that what has occurred to me is that we might look at several mountains that are mentioned in Matthew, which I hope we may be able to see correspond with Psalm 125, which speaks of mountains being round about Jerusalem, and “the Lord is round about his people”. That was what I had in mind, not only for this meeting but for the following readings. What do you say?

WHM I think it will be very good; it is a most helpful line; it is a grand thing to get up in the mountains!

JT There are several mountains mentioned in Matthew, each of which, I believe, sets out some feature intended to be defensive, intended to fortify the saints. This is the first mountain; the second one is in chapter 14, in which the Lord is said to go up to the mountain, and was there alone praying. The third is in chapter 15, in which He is again on the mountain, and the multitudes come to Him; the fourth is in chapter 17, the well-known mount of transfiguration; the fifth is in chapter 24 — the mount of Olives; and the sixth is in chapter 28, in which He meets with His disciples and commissions them. The Lord, I believe, will help us to see the bearing of each of these mountains. Taken together they are round about Jerusalem. The mention of Jerusalem in this gospel as “the holy city”, and “the city of the great King”, conveys something of the mind of God as to it (chapters 27:53 and 5:35).

RWG Do you mean that the mountains set forth some moral feature that would defend the people of God?

JT Yes; that is what I thought — the assembly taking the place of the literal Jerusalem, but representing all the divine features seen in it in the Old Testament. Matthew contemplates, not exactly God coming down as in Luke, but rather the exercise that is needed to take up the position involved in Jerusalem, or in the assembly, as that in which the divine thoughts are to be maintained; that in which the light of God, the influence of God and heaven, are to be set out.

RMcB Is that why the church is brought forward in the book of Revelation as coming down? John is taken up into an exceeding high mountain to see it.

JT Well, just so; that is the great end. It is the heavenly Jerusalem. What it is now is in view in Matthew; John presents what it shall be, but Matthew presents it according to God’s requirements in it now.

WH So that the defence is for the present time.

JT The Lord said, “The gates of hell shall not prevail against it”; He calls it “My assembly”, showing that it was something He would have (chapter 16:18).

WT The two verses in the psalm suggest eternal stability and security, as encircled by the Blesser.

JT Yes. “They that confide in Jehovah are as mount Zion, which cannot be moved; it abideth for ever”. The New Translation gives the name of the city as mentioned formally by itself with an exclamation mark; meaning that it is in the mind feelingly. The godly Israelite had it in his mind according to all that it meant to him. That is how we should understand the assembly, you have it in your mind feelingly; it cost Christ much to secure it. And then the defences: “mountains are round about her, ^[p. 313] and Jehovah is round about his people, from henceforth and for evermore”.

LM Is there a deeper thought in Jehovah being round about His people — in addition to the mountains?

JT I think so; it brings Himself in. God is there; not only the defence — the ramparts — but the presence of Jehovah Himself.

WH So that they “confide in Jehovah”; that brings in feeling too.

JT Quite so. “God is known in her palaces”, (Psalm 48:3); that is a deeper, a more intimate thought. Here He is “round about his people, from henceforth and for evermore”. Where it says that He is known in her palaces it shews that God is recognised in the residences of His people.

HH Do you think that, in connection with what God has established on the earth at any given time, there would be power here to defend it against what is adverse? Is that in your mind?

JT That is it exactly. That is what all this would mean for us today, what the defences are now. First, as to whether we are feeling enough about the assembly, as the pious Israelites will be when they begin their ‘degrees’; when they begin to ascend, Jerusalem comes into their minds. So that now if God is working, there is the principle of ascension with us, and Jerusalem is in our minds, that is, the assembly, as that which is in the mind of God; He never loses sight of it. So that in the Songs of degrees you get “I rejoiced when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of Jehovah. Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem. Jerusalem, which art built as a city that is compact together, whither the tribes go up, the tribes of Jah, a testimony to Israel, to give thanks unto the name of Jehovah! For there are set thrones for judgment, the thrones of the house of David. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee. Peace be within thy bulwarks, prosperity within thy palaces. For my brethren and companions’ sakes I will say, Peace be within thee! Because of the house of Jehovah our God I will seek thy good”. (Psalm 122). You see there how the returning remnant in their ascent have the city in their minds feelingly.

HH It has ever been the object of the attack of the enemy, I suppose. In prophetic days antichrist will work from Jerusalem very much, and then in the recovery of the tribes the Assyrian will be there; there will be many adversaries at the gates, so that it is well to know how God defends things by the power established in His people here.

JT Exactly. I think we shall see as we go on how that each of these mountains sets out something which is to be worked into our souls. The returning remnant will go up whilst Jerusalem is in the hands of the enemy outwardly, but they take account of it abstractly; they know that the enemy will be dislodged. I think that is how we ought to take account of the assembly.

HH And things can only be met by what there is of God in the souls of the saints.

JT Quite so; that is the point. The defences are all worked out in our souls. Each believer has to come to it that he is to represent these mountains in all their features.

HH I think we are made to feel increasingly the importance of that, that it is not merely by the knowledge of divine principles, but all that which is connected with the work of God in us.

WHM Is that what Zion stands for in your mind?

JT Yes. I think that Zion, as has often been remarked, stands for the principle of sovereignty — God selecting it; Jerusalem, that is the other side — the concrete side, in which there is building. Zion is more a principle. Jerusalem is the concrete working out of the thing, and therefore the defences.

LES Would you say that the defences are ^[p. 315] consistent with the foundation, as in Psalm 87:1 - 3: “His foundation is in the holy mountains. The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob. Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah”?

JT Well, that is the thing; the solidity of the foundation, the holy mountains. You feel that that must allude to the foundation of God in our souls, hence it is laid in holiness. The ‘popular gospel’ does not touch the question of holiness, whereas Romans 1:4 begins with that. It says, “marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead”. That idea enters into the soul. The germ of everything for God ought to be conveyed in the presentation of the gospel, so that the foundation is right.

WHM And so where the apostle unfolds such wonderful things to the Ephesians, he says, “who first trusted in Christ”, (chapter 1:12). “They that trust in the Lord shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed”.

RDH Would Daniel suggest the idea of defences, when he went into his house and at the open windows prayed towards Jerusalem three times a day?

JT That would shew what place Jerusalem had in his mind; and his prayer would have the deliverance and defence of it in view, so that it is said to him, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city”. We have in chapter 9 that as he prayed the angel Gabriel moved towards him; deliverance comes about in this way.

HH Daniel knew that Babylon had not got any sound defences, I suppose?

JT Quite so. As Gabriel came to Daniel the prince of Persia contended with him; but there is Israel’s prince — Michael — he is the great military prince, and he will come in for the deliverance and defence of God’s people (chapter 10:13).

WW Jerusalem is an exalted place, it is in the mountains: “Whither the tribes go up”, (Psalm 122:4). Is there the thought of exaltation there?

JT Well, I thought that. The Songs of degrees are said to be songs of ascent. And I suppose the suggestion for us is moral elevation; that is, that if God is working with us we move to a level above the level of current religion, current religious customs. It is remarkable that it says of Jonah, when turning away from the will of God, that “he went down to Joppa”, and he “went down” into the ship, and he went “down into the sides of the ship” (Jonah 1:3,5). That is the descent, moral descent; whereas the godly Israelites in their recovery go up. Jerusalem is the great objective to them. They are assured from the very outset that their feet would stand within the gates of Jerusalem. You are not content with anything less than that — the moral height to be reached.

WW And when they reach it they find that the mountains are round about still.

JT That is the thing, that God is the defence of His people. However timidly they go up, when they reach the place they find that it is impregnable.

WW What marks the position is stability — something that cannot be moved.

RWG That is divine elevation.

PP Would what you refer to come out in Paul and Silas? Would the earthquake be the deliverance?

JT Just so. You see how God comes in in answer to prayer. In Psalm 121 they begin, you will observe: “I lift up mine eyes unto the mountains: whence shall my help come? My help cometh from Jehovah, who made the heavens and the earth. He will not suffer thy foot to be moved; he that keepeth thee will not slumber. Behold, he that keepeth Israel will neither slumber nor sleep. Jehovah is thy keeper, Jehovah is thy shade upon thy right hand; the sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night. Jehovah will keep thee from all ^[p. 317] evil; he will keep thy soul. Jehovah will keep thy going out and thy coming in, from henceforth and for evermore”. That is an immense thing to have in one’s soul in starting out — what God is to it.

WH There is to be no defeat on that line.

JT We do well to have these things clearly in view. There is constant pressure to lead us to moral descent, not being able or energetic enough to hold the ground on moral lines, on moral elevation; you get down to lower ground where there is less pressure, and gradually it is down, down, down! Whereas in the Songs of degrees it is up, up, up! The point is reached where God is known, He is in the palaces, He is round about His people; there is immovableness there, and security.

Ques Would there be the same thought in Psalm 48:13, “Mark ye well her bulwarks, consider her palaces; that ye may tell it to the generation following”?

JT That is the same idea.

HH Do you not think that the Psalms are prefaced in a kind of way by the book of Job? The godly man is in a sense produced there, and God raises with him the question of foundations, and in the last chapter He brings him into His own presence. So that whatever might be said about Job, he really did not know himself until he got into the presence of God. Is not that an important thing with us, a proper start in regard to divine interests?

JT Quite so; to get into the presence of God, as you say.

HH “I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes”, (Job 42:5,6). And then the Psalms begin with the godly man, and go on to the lines you have been drawing attention to. I thought it was all prefaced by a proper apprehension in our souls of the judgment of the flesh, and the knowledge of God in ^[p. 318] grace.

JT The book of Job begins with the sons of God going up before Jehovah, “and Satan came also among them”. That is, we are let into the secret of satanic ways. How bold he is, coming up with the sons of God! But God challenges him, and that really underlies the whole book. It is a question of the battle between God and Satan as to God’s people, and how God’s people are delivered — set up before Him in liberty.

HH Would you say we get that also in the Psalms?

JT Quite so. The battle is really between God and Satan, man is the battle-ground, and hence the experience of the godly man in the Psalms. The battle goes on inside of him between God and Satan, but he learns in the process what God is and what he is himself. When the people come to Psalm 125 the heart is restful; there is stability in the sense that God has elected Zion, “which cannot be moved; it abideth for ever”.

JRS Is that the result of the conflict? You said that the conflict is between God and Satan, and the result of it is that Jerusalem has its place in the heart.

JT That is, that you come not simply to think of yourself, but of Jerusalem. It is a question now of the deliverance of that in which the thoughts and principles of God are set. We want to see that, and it is what Psalm 125 indicates. Psalm 133 is the full result — brethren dwelling together in unity — where the blessing is; now the blessing of God comes out. Psalm 134 is the last of the Songs of degrees; it is the priestly attitude of the saints in the sanctuary by night.

In Matthew 5 the Lord begins to teach on the mountain. The closing paragraph of chapter 4 shews the comprehensiveness of His service, given in a compressed way. “And Jesus went round the whole of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every bodily weakness among the people. And his fame went out into the whole of Syria, and they ^[p. 319] brought to him all that were ill, suffering under various diseases and pains, and those possessed by demons, and lunatics, and paralytics; and he healed them”. That is His general service, as you might say, put down without regard for historical details. It is just the facts governing His service, and that service brought out the multitudes. So that this first verse of chapter 5 says, “But seeing the crowds, he went up into the mountain, and having sat down, his disciples came to him; and, having opened his mouth, he taught them”. There were some now known as His disciples, and they came to Him; that is a special touch in Matthew. They came to Him in this position, in this mountain in which He was sitting.

WH They had got relieved of all their own matters, now they are free to come to Him.

JT That is it exactly; now they come to Him. Going up to the mountain implies that it cost them something. It is not a matter of pleasure exactly; it is a matter of exercise; it requires a strong heart.

I think that this action of the disciples points to what the Lord would look for in His people, as relieved severally through the gospel. He has taken up a position that is morally elevated, and it requires exercise to reach it. So that the disciples came to Him. That was the position. I think the Lord has helped us in recent times in coming to Him in this position. “His disciples came to him; and, having opened his mouth, he taught them”; well worth while going up for that!

CMJ Would that indicate spiritual ascent?

JT Yes; and that it requires exercise; it is not something very easy. In Luke He goes down and stands on the level place, meaning that He would go to where men are; but He takes a position here in view of the crowds. Who will go to Him there? Well, it says, “His disciples came to him”; and they are rewarded. He ever rewards His people as they are exercised, and move accordingly. “Having opened his mouth, he taught them”.

JH ^[p. 320] Is this like a starting-point in Matthew’s gospel, a starting-point in regard to elevation?

JT Well, this is the first mountain. There is an earlier mountain, the one Satan employed, but we do not want that, although we may learn there too. This is one that the Lord selects; it is a vantage point. Who will go there? His disciples came to Him, and He opened His mouth and taught them. And then what I think we may see in chapters 5, 6 and 7 is the perspective that you get — a wide spiritual perspective. In these three chapters things that hitherto may have been a puzzle become clarified from this point of view. The teaching here in these three chapters makes the whole environment simple to you — the position is clarified. The Lord mentions the kind of people who inherit the earth. It is an important thing to know what kind of people will inherit the earth. They are unlike the present occupants of it! It is a relief to know that they are not going to stay.

There are nine different classes who are called Blessed. The first is, “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens”. That is the first thing. Satan had taken Him to the mountain, and had said that all the kingdoms of the earth were his, and that he would give them to Him if He bowed down and worshipped him. The Lord says here that the kingdom of the heavens belongs to the poor in spirit. That settles the political question.

HH Do you think all that is consistent with the thought of the light in which Christ is presented in Matthew’s gospel, namely, as King? And then He enunciates the principles of the kingdom of the heavens from the mount, and, as you say, draws attention to the kind of people who will inherit the earth.

JT That is right; so that it begins with the kingdom — the kind of people who have the kingdom of the ^[p. 321] heavens.

HB-T What are we to understand by being poor in spirit?

JT I think one is not filled with the riches of this world. It is not a question of having nothing materially, but how you regard these things. They are not your riches. You are poor in spirit in regard to them. The Lord was, of course, the exemplification of it. He is really seeking to bring out that those who are to come into the occupation of things here are to be like Himself.

WH That is what He appreciates.

JT Yes; so that He begins with the kingdom. Who is going to have it? That is the point on every election day. In earlier times men set out as warriors to have kingdoms; that was their objective. The Lord shews here who is to be in the position of rule; the poor in spirit have the kingdom of the heavens.

EG In Psalm 110:6 it says, “He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies”. Would that refer to the present occupants of this scene?

JT Just so. They have all got to go, and the Lord takes up the obligation of removing them; He will remove them.

RSW Were poverty of spirit and other features in this chapter seen in the disciples early in the Acts in the beginning of the church’s history?

JT Quite so. Although applicable to the Jewish remnant, the spirit of it applies to us. We want to be poor in spirit, and not as though enjoying things of this world.

JRS Is such a spirit impressionable?

JT Yes. In Psalm 41:1 it says, “Blessed is he that considereth the poor”, that is to say, Christ Himself. There never was a man more poor in spirit than He as regards this world, though not as regards the Father. When He thought of the Father He rejoiced in spirit, all was wealth there; but as regards this world all ^[p. 322] was poverty.

JRS I asked that question because it stands at the outset of what He had to say.

JT I think the poor man is impressionable. But I do not wish to occupy the brethren with all these details; only it is very interesting to see the kind of people who are blessed. It helps you in your perspective to get to know from the Lord as to the kind of people who are blessed. Do you want to be amongst them? That is the resolve of the heart.

Then He goes on to other things that might have baffled the godly, such as the law, Matthew 5:17. How does it comport with this new order of things? We know how men have endeavoured to make it fit in literally with christianity. So that you want to know from the Lord, and He lets you know here what the relation of the law is to this new order of things. And then as regards other matters, how I am to be in relation with the brother. And then the question of marriage, and the question of giving, and the question of prayer. All these questions that often baffle the believer as coming into the new order of things from the old, are adjusted, so that his perspective is perfectly clarified; he sees all things clearly. That is an important feature of the first mountain.

JRS Do you link this mountain with the word the Lord so often uses here, “I say unto you”?

JT There you have some One who knows. What can be more important for us today than to have some one who knows — one who speaks with authority? It is not ‘I think’ with the Lord, it is “I say unto you”; it is definite. The saints need that, they need definiteness, so that they may be sure of their ground.

HH The “word of a king”?

JT Exactly; there is power in it (Ecclesiastes 8:4).

RWG Do you mean that we get clear on these moral questions, these various things that are spoken of ^[p. 323] here?

JT That is it exactly. To make it simple, if you question our brethren in the systems, you will find that they are not clear on these points; they are beclouded. Well, the person so beclouded is not material for the church; he is of no use to Jerusalem; his vision has to be clarified. That is the great gain of teaching as in meetings like this. The Lord opened His mouth and taught them, and first as to the kinds of people who are blessed.

RWG I suppose it is not only that you are clear in your mind, but that it has laid hold of you with feeling.

JT Just so. It is said here that the Lord opened His mouth. What a mouth that was! Luke 4:22 enlarges on it; they “wondered at the words of grace which were coming out of his mouth”. And the psalmist says, “the law of thy mouth”, (Psalm 119:72); it is calculated to touch the affections.

RWG Paul says, “he said unto me”, (2 Corinthians 12:9).

JT Just so; the Lord’s own mouth.

HH I thought that what you have just drawn attention to was important — the thought of the kingdom being clearly understood and entered into before there can be any proper appreciation of the assembly. Some of our church difficulties, if I may so say, are traceable to defectiveness as to the kingdom.

JT In seeking to help souls in these organisations, you are immediately up against a befogged state. All these problems, or questions, that the Lord touches on here are in their mind, but in the most distorted way. What about the people who are being blessed? Well, people will assume to be liberal and make room for all; but the Lord settles the matter; He gives you definitely the kinds of people who are blessed. Your mind is thus settled as to the people that are blessed, and you want to be amongst them. You question yourself as to whether you are like these ^[p. 324] people.

JG Is it what the Lord says in “I say unto you” that clarifies the position? I was wondering if for us today the “I say unto you” would be continued in the gifts that are spoken of in Ephesians?

JT Just so; He sends them down. One of the most important things in a gift is that he should represent Christ. If he does not represent Christ in some way he should not minister. The Lord was definite, and He said positively what He knew — “I say unto you” — “We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen”, (John 3:11). But all around us there is no such thing except with the heretics. They claim to know, but they speak lies. They are emphatic enough, alas! but those who are regarded as christians are today generally strangely indefinite and uncertain. That is the point in these chapters, that the whole perspective of the believer is clarified. He is certain now, having got the truth from the Lord’s own mouth.

JG So that we are no longer “tossed to and fro”, as the result of attention to the gifts (Ephesians 4:14).

JT That is right; we are no longer babes. That is an important point — what gifts are. The Lord has given gifts as ascended, having overcome all evil power.

CMJ Would you say that the disciples would partake of the character of teachers?

JT That was in view. Everything He spoke He was: “altogether that which I say unto you”. (John 8:25). So He gives you a list of the people who are blessed: the poor in spirit, they that mourn, the meek, those that hunger and thirst after righteousness, the merciful, the pure in heart, the peace-makers, the persecuted on account of righteousness. He bore all these features Himself. Then He brings it down to themselves, “Blessed are ye”. That is to say, He brings it down finally to known persons, to persons that were there before Him. Then He brings out that these very persons were the salt of the earth, and the light of the world. We are to be like ^[p. 325] that; not only that I am blessed, but I become the salt of the earth and the light of the world.

WH A preserving element is there.

JT Yes; light and preservation, how much they are needed!

OG Do you not think that one of the features of the opposition of Satan today is to shew that such people cannot get on in the world?

JT He would convey that, whereas the Songs of degrees shew that you can rely on the Lord. There is no doubt that such people are at a great disadvantage, as men speak, but that disadvantage is more than outweighed by the help you get from the Lord. God sees that you get enough.

HH They are the only people who know how to get through in the right way.

WW J.N.D.’s hymn says, ‘Well proved in secret help’.

RW Would you say that we have, or ought to have, present compensation in the assembly?

JT The Lord speaks of a hundredfold compensation now, and in the coming age life eternal (Mark 10:30).

Rem Praise and prosperity would thus mark us.

JT Then you want to have preservation of the things of God, and this required salt; thus the Lord regards the disciples as the salt of the earth.

JRS Do you connect that with what preceded — the principles spoken of before? Is that where the salt would be found?

JT Exactly; the truth never contemplates that it is not to be exemplified here, and the Lord brings it down to the persons before Him, and tells them what they were, not what they should be.

And then there is the question of the law. How many thousands of God’s people have been baffled by the law — as to how it stands related to christianity! The ^[p. 326] epistle to the Romans develops the truth of it, but the Lord in principle does it here. The law is not abrogated by His coming in, not a jot or tittle of it would be left unfulfilled. It is important to bear that in mind.

WMcC I was wondering if what we have in Isaiah 25:7 helps us, “he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations”. You see things clearly from that standpoint.

JT Quite so. God will begin at Jerusalem to remove the darkness from all nations, “in this mountain”. I think that holds good, in the principle of it, in the assembly — God’s centre — whence the light emanates.

The next thing after the law here is the question of the brother. Referring to the law verse 21 says, “Ye have heard that it was said to the ancients, Thou shalt not kill; but whosoever shall kill shall be subject to the judgment. But I say unto you, that every one that is lightly angry with his brother shall be subject to the judgment; but whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be subject to be called before the sanhedrim; but whosoever shall say, Fool, shall be subject to the penalty of the hell of fire. If therefore thou shouldest offer thy gift at the altar, and there shouldest remember that thy brother has something against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and first go, be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift”. I think that this section of the chapter helps us in regard to our brother. You cannot speak lightly about a brother.

JRS In your mind are you going beyond those we are immediately connected with?

JT Oh, yes; I am speaking now of all christians. This is the first mountain. We shall never understand the others without this; you want to see all things clearly. All these matters are baffling the people of God. We never get clear of them in human organisations; to get clear you must come out to where the Lord is — ^[p. 327] where He speaks to His people about them, and teaches them.

GFG Approach by the altar would be prevented by relationships between brothers being strained.

HH Would you say that in Matthew 18, in relation to one’s brother, the thought of the assembly comes in, but here it is more on the line of the kingdom?

JT Yes; and Jewish terms are taken up, so that it is rather a person coming out of the maze of what corresponds with Judaism now, as to how he is to act in relation to his brother. He wants to know about his brother; he wants also to know about the kind of people who are blessed; and he wants to know about the law. And then there is the subject of divorce and marriage; that is another matter he wants to understand. The Lord makes all these things plain. And then in chapter 6 you have other things, such as almsgiving and prayer. In these three chapters, if rightly understood, a brother coming out of any darkened organisation gets clarified as to all these matters; and then he is ready for the next mountain.

HH I was wondering if you would say a word about marriage and divorce. You have just referred to it.

JT Well, it is left very vaguely, but there is enough here to satisfy any tender conscience. The subject is dealt with very vaguely, designedly so, in the New Testament. The instruction in the main is for the priests; the priest’s lips should keep “knowledge”, (Malachi 2:7). The priest does not have to tell everything; he does not have to relate openly all that governed him in his judgment, but he has an inward judgment.

JC Do you think this is to give us a wholesome fear as to that which we are coming to, as coming out of the maze, and coming into that which is in itself holy, so that these things should be taken account of in ourselves?

JT I think that is right. As regards the matter of divorce, as the world has become so impregnated with ^[p. 328] looseness, it is important that the saints of God should have a right inward knowledge of the mind of God. Scripture does not think it wise to be very explicit on this subject. Even the apostle Paul in dealing with a feature of it says, that it was his own judgment, and not the Lord’s; as if the Lord had conveyed to him that He was withholding His mind (1 Corinthians 7:12,25). It is a question of the spiritual state of people, so that you have no positive license for divorce in Scripture. You have the allowance of it somewhat vaguely in mercy, but not a positive license.

LM Would that be why the Lord said, “from the beginning it was not so”? (Matthew 19:8).

JT That is right; the Lord would put you back to the beginning on this point. But He gives a clue to those who are spiritual, it seems to me. On account of a low spiritual state it may have to be allowed, but it is not a positive law. “All cannot receive this word”, the Lord says, (Matthew 19:11).

JRS Do not the righteous requirements of the law go deeper than the letter?

JT They do indeed! They are “fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”, (Romans 8:4). It is the fulfilment of things that exemplifies them, and that is in those who have the Spirit. And so you often hear the inquiry, What do the brethren hold? But that is a false suggestion. Brethren have no specific tenets at all; it is a question of the truth, and every case has to be dealt with on its own facts. What we are speaking of is a question of priestly discernment, peculiarly a matter for the priests, whose lips keep knowledge and at whose mouths the law is sought.

FS Your concern is that we should be in accord with this, so that we may help those who are coming out of current religious organisations.

JT I think the Lord, in these chapters, would settle all these questions for any one who is subject.

CWE “When it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away”, (2 Corinthians 3:16). Is not that the principle?

JT That is very good. “When it shall turn to the Lord”, that is subjection, is it not?

GFG What is involved in swearing by Jerusalem?

JT Well, people got into the habit of swearing, and the Lord checks it here, saying, “it has been said to the ancients, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt render to the Lord what thou hast sworn. But I say unto you, Do not swear at all; neither by the heaven, because it is the throne of God; nor by the earth, because it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your word be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; but what is more than these is from evil”. That is a very fine moral principle! It is really weakness in man to resort to swearing, to say nothing about the profanity that enters into it. It is weakness. If a man knows what he is saying, and says it, that is all; there is power in what he says. Paul’s word was not Yea and Nay; he said Yea, and he meant it (2 Corinthians 1:17 - 20).

JH You would say that the principles set forth in this chapter are elementary; they must be learnt if the saints are to move on to further truth, so that they are exercising.

JT Quite so. And I would say, therefore, that this mountain is for young christians, or for those who are emerging from the darkness of human systems, and who are exercised to take this journey up the mount, and to the Lord as sitting there. What a thing it is to get into touch with Christ! He does not teach like other teachers.

JH It was with authority; and He would assure such an one who went up.

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