MOUNTAINS AROUND JERUSALEM (4)
[p. 368] MOUNTAINS AROUND JERUSALEM (4)
Matthew 24:1 - 5; Matthew 26:30
JT What came before us yesterday afternoon requires, I believe, particular attention in connection with this inquiry in verse 3, that is, the order of things in heaven. For the heavenly is to be seen now in the assembly; it is to be marked as the heavenly Jerusalem in the millennium, and this is to be reflected now. So that chapter 17 deserves special attention, as bringing into view what exists in heaven. Paul was caught up, he says, to the third heaven, but it was not what he saw but what he heard; he heard things which are not allowed to man to utter. Whereas the mount of transfiguration is something to be seen and contemplated; and withal we have the thought of speaking, the speaking of One who is the Object of affection — the beloved Son; and then the faith in the disciples which should say to the mountain, Be thou removed and cast into the sea, and it should be removed — it should remove itself. The removal is by an unseen hand, of what stands in the way of the heavenly order of things, because the Lord is introducing this in that chapter; it is in those who form the assembly; they are sons, associates with Himself. Room has to be made for the assembly as thus composed, but faith is required for the removal of what stands in the way. It is not now simply to leave it; we can leave as the Lord did, He left them and went away (chapter 16), but the obstruction has to be removed. That brings in providential service, without which we could not hope to be here in testimony, as heavenly. Way is made, but it is through the faith of those who compose the assembly — the power of God through faith. Hence the importance of recognising “the powers that be” — through whom God operates angelically.
Then in this chapter 24 it is a question of the Spirit entirely; that is another phase which is of supreme [p. 369] importance. Olivet was not a high mount, not as high as the one in chapter 17; it is a low range really; but it is a question of what it represents. The Lord is seen here sitting on it; that is, taking up a position which involves the presence of the Spirit, as over against what had been — the temple. The Lord is sitting over against that, having left it. It says, “Jesus went forth and went away from the temple”, corresponding with chapter 16, where He left the Pharisees and the Sadducees, that is, the leaders; here He leaves the place in which they are.
HH All this would indicate how the Lord was set for the instruction of His own; various movements having that end in view.
JT Well, I thought that; for He takes up the position here as sitting. It indicates permanency, He is not to move away from it immediately; and in it He is inquired of. Our subject now, you might say, is the Spirit; not the Spirit exactly as in the believer in the way of life and enjoyment, but dispensationally.
HH Do you mean in contrast with all that we see breaking up around?
JT Yes; the Spirit here personally, but in a dispensational way. He is here to remain according to the Lord’s words; He is the Spirit of truth, and He dwells with us and in us; He abides with us for ever. So that it is a fixed position.
WH What do you mean by dispensationally?
JT Well, He is here throughout the dispensation and as here He gives character to it. It is in the power of this that you can look at the great religious organisations, and know that they are to be removed; they are to come down.
HH With Sardis you get the plain word in regard to the Spirit — Christ has “the seven Spirits of God”, (Revelation 3:1). Thinking of the word you gave the other day in regard to Peter being released, it was that the testimony might [p. 370] go on its way set free of man’s limitations. Say a word about that.
JT What we alluded to was the restriction of the ministry in Peter; he was in prison, and it was therefore a question of his release. So that the angel smote him on the side, which would remind him of the love of Christ. That is, the releasement of the ministry is in that; the start is the love of Christ and what He is to the church. His side is smitten. And the angel says to Peter, “follow me”, (Acts 12:8) It is angelic leading; that is, God intervening providentially to release the ministry. And so Peter passes the first and second guard, and then the iron gate that led into the city, which opened of itself. “The iron gate which leads into the city”, (verse 10) suggestively an order of things covered by the word ‘city’. And they went down one street, it says; which is another suggestion. And then the angel leaves him. Now Peter is on known ground, and he comes to himself. Hitherto he thought it was a vision; now he is come to himself. So that it is the releasement of the ministry. Then it says that he went to the house of Mary, where many were gathered together praying. But they did not believe that he was released. There was a lack of faith, as in chapter 17 of this book; but there was one there who discerned Peter’s voice; that is, there was a remnant. Rhoda discerned his voice and stood by her belief. It was surely the voice of Peter; it was Peter himself. So that there is a voice in the released ministry; the well-known voice of Peter that had often brought joy to the hearts as he ministered Christ. How often he had touched hearts as he spoke uniquely about Jesus! What touches he would give! And Rhoda stood firmly by the fact that it was he. And then he went to another place, he did not stop there; but he was free. Then the leading of the Lord is a further thing. There is angelic leading, and then the leading of the Lord, all of which covers the moral history of the church since the Reformation; the [p. 371] release of the ministry and then the way the Lord came in and made room for the Spirit. He “led them out as far as Bethany”; that is, where love is, where intelligent affection is. Then He went up and was parted from them, so that the link with heaven is seen there. And then the Spirit comes to take His place. So that in Romans 8:14 you have the leading of the Spirit: “as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God”. That is how the sons come to light. They are marked off as sons. Matthew 17 corresponds; there we have the sons, those who are ready to be led by the Spirit. All this links on with the ‘mount of Olives’.
RWG Do you mean that this angelic ministry goes on today?
JT Oh, surely. And we should pray therefore for all whom angels may use. We look to be used not by an angel, but by the Spirit. The angels may use ungodly men, they may use powers that can act at a distance, but they act with a definite end in view today, and that is to make room for the testimony. By and by they will act here in the whole scene of evil. They employ agencies such as wind, earthquake and fire. That is what we get in the book of Revelation: God acting at a distance, but acting effectively, so as to make room for ‘the world to come’. Those things appear in this chapter, that is, God’s providential dealings. But the position occupied by the Lord relates to the Spirit. The dispensation is founded on the presence of the Spirit. “Not a stone”, He says, “shall be left here upon a stone which shall not be thrown down”, but He does not say by whom; it is by an unseen hand, but it is done. That is why, I think, we should not overlook angelic service. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?” (Hebrews 1:14).
Rem There seems to be a link between Bethany and the mount of Olives.
JT [p. 372] Well, there is; it was just over the ridge, so that there is a strong link geographically. And there is a spiritual link, because according to the gospel of Luke He went up from Bethany, but according to Acts 1:12 it was Olivet.
Ques Why did you say the mount of Olives was a low range?
JT Well, the point is, not great eminence, like the high mount in chapter 17. That is to say, it is not what is in heaven, but what is down here. It is elevated, surely enough, morally, but yet on the earth so as to be available for faith. It is a power, but low — within our range. As a matter of fact, the Lord will come back there. He went up from Olivet, and He will come back to it (Zechariah 14:4). Leading them to Bethany is, I believe, to call attention to leading to a circle of intelligent affection for Christ, and immediately connected with that is the Spirit. And so in chapter 26 it is said they went to the mount of Olives, having sung a hymn.
WWW Was the Lord leaving the systems of men for the last time? He had the upper room in view.
JT Quite so; the upper room and the Spirit agree.
WWW The upper room is quite outside the systems of men.
JT Yes; so that you find in Acts 1 they go back to the city, having seen Him go up, and then “they went up to the upper chamber” (verse 13).
RMcB Would you say that the temple has to be laid waste for us to follow the Lord?
JT Well, I think it helps us to see that what corresponds with it today is to be effaced — these things that hold our brethren. Christendom is studded with immense buildings, each having its own history, antiquity and architecture. These are intended to buttress the religious position in this world. They are very imposing. Every effort is made to make them imposing, so as to command and hold the religious mind; because [p. 373] Satan acts on the religious mind of man. Music, stained-glass windows, choirs, religious habiliments, and hierarchical titles — these are all intended to hold a certain state of mind. Many of the people of God are held by these things. I think that is what is meant here, that the Lord leaves the temple. The word used here is not the inner shrine — He never was in that — but the system of buildings; these were imposing. He leaves all that, and He is sitting on Olivet. The disciples had drawn attention to the temple; evidently they were affected by these things, and that shews how our brethren are affected by them. The point, therefore, is to recognise and make use of the Spirit; that is the way of preservation from worldly religious greatness. It is not only simply what He is to one as an individual, but what He is here dispensationally in relation to the church.
FI You were speaking yesterday in regard to Ephesians 2. That chapter speaks of the spiritual temple.
JT Yes, exactly; there is a habitation for God by the Spirit. The second part of that chapter treats of the spiritual building: “Ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God”. Christ Himself is the chief corner-stone, “in whom all the building fitted together increases to a holy temple in the Lord”, (Ephesians 2:19 - 21). That stands over against this; it is the dispensational position in regard to God’s dwelling here.
LES I suppose the solemn thing is that the prophetic word had now no place at all in Jerusalem or in the temple.
JT That is confirmed by the previous verses. The Lord said that a prophet must not suffer outside, as if that were the place of murderous opposition to the prophetic word. And then, in verse 37 of the previous chapter, it says, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those that are sent unto [p. 374] her, how often would I have gathered thy children as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” There is no possibility of room for the prophetic word there, and that is very solemn when you bring it down to our own times, that all these great systems shut out the prophetic word.
HH The prophetic word is against Jerusalem. She is prophesied against by the Lord.
LES This word is communicated privately. It says, “the disciples came to him privately”.
JT Quite so; shewing what our privilege is; we have access to Him in this position. That is, He is sitting in relation to the Spirit, and our inquiries will be answered accordingly. So that the chapter is really a prophetic outline of what should happen until the coming of the Lord, when He shall come publicly — “as the lightning goes forth from the east and shines to the west”, (verse 27).
RA In regard to making room for the Spirit, what shape does that take now amongst us?
JT Well, I think you see how the Lord’s remarks here would remove from the minds of the disciples the great place these buildings had. So long as any of these great buildings around — these systems — have a place with you, the Holy Spirit is hampered. I am speaking of that particular thing because the passage is, I believe, the bearing of the Spirit dispensationally. If we speak of the Spirit as the ‘well’ in the individual, then of course other things hinder; but what we are speaking of here is the presence of the Spirit dispensationally, and what it is that would hinder Him operating in this connection. I may be quite clear as to Romans 7 and 8, but am I equally clear as to the presence of the Spirit dispensationally — from the beginning of the dispensation until the end, because He remains until the end? As Revelation 22:17 says, “The Spirit and the bride say, Come”.
HH [p. 375] Would that not be in the sense of appreciating the light the Lord had previously given in regard to the assembly? That is, in taking account of a chapter like this, we do not overlook what the Lord previously communicated about the assembly.
JT It is all constructive; all these mountains are constructive. They link on with one another, a chain of instruction. This one suggests the Spirit, as said.
WHM “Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings”, (1 Thessalonians 5:19,20).
JT That is an important word; that you make room for any vessel whom the Holy Spirit may use, whether he be old or young, rich or poor, black or white; you do not despise the prophecies, nor quench the Spirit.
WHM What is the difference between quenching the Spirit and grieving the Spirit?
JT Quenching would, I think, put Him out altogether; He is extremely sensitive. I think that the symbol used, that is to say, the dove, is extremely sensitive. The dove will not push itself. So that if you consider the infinite value of the Spirit of God here, you are very concerned lest you might grieve Him, and, above all, lest you might quench Him. This implies that there is not a word at all from Him. I suppose if the clerical element arose, any person domineering in a meeting, that would be quenching. As you remarked, putting the fire out with a big piece of coal!
WHM I think that is right; it is very solemn to shut out the Spirit of God.
WWW The disciples here do not seem to be in the mind of the Lord, in drawing His attention to the temple which He was leaving.
JT Well, that is to shew what we are exposed to; I mean, our brethren who are in these systems. We have to make allowance for this sort of thing. Any of us who have been in these systems know how these [p. 376] things hold us, whether it be a large cathedral or the antiquity of the system, such as the Roman system or the Anglican system. They all have established reputations, and we know the power this can have over us. So we can see here that the disciples were not clear of the system, and the book of Acts shews that even Paul, under certain circumstances, was not altogether clear of the system.
Ques Was it the Lord’s word to them, “Not a stone shall be left here upon a stone”, that led them to inquire privately?
JT Well, evidently they followed what the Lord said. We need to have our ears opened to take account of what He says. They came to Him privately; they wanted to know more. The Lord says, “Do ye not see all these things? Verily I say to you, Not a stone shall be left here upon a stone which shall not be thrown down. And as he was sitting upon the mount of Olives the disciples came to him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?” Now they are subjects for further instruction.
Ques I suppose that is what the Lord would do with us all — throw these things down in our minds, that we might go to Him privately on this mount?
JT Yes, because if things are thrown down others will be built up. You want to know about that; not that they are brought up here, but they are in the epistles. The epistle to the Ephesians is the answer positively to what is thrown down here. Besides the Lord had already announced that He would build His assembly.
PP Do you think the material things are only the shadow, while the spiritual things are the real things?
JT That is so; but I do not think the Lord is dealing with the temple here as a shadow, but as something that has become reprobate. The previous three verses shew what Jerusalem had become, there was a murderous state of things. The prophet should not [p. 377] suffer outside of it. So that the temple in Jerusalem ceased to be the shadow of anything; it represented a reprobate system. Not that one would say anything against our brethren, but that is what the worldly religious systems are today. They are human organisations, and have become in modern times saturated with much that is evil.
JG Is not the prophetic word in Revelation very valuable in regard to them; it shews what they will become — the habitation of demons?
JT One of them at least has become that. “Great Babylon has fallen, has fallen, and has become the habitation of demons, and a hold ... of every unclean and hated bird”, (Revelation 18:2). They are all there, but caged. In Protestantism they are not caged, but roost in the branches. But whether it be Rome or Protestantism, the demons have got a footing.
JT-L Reproach would be attached to the mount of Olives, as contrasted with the temple buildings?
JT Well, it would. In Acts 1 the reproach, I believe, is in the upper room. The disciples came into the city from the mount of Olives, and went to the upper room.
JT-L I was wondering if you would connect what 1 John 3:2 says, “Beloved, now are we children of God”, with the mount of Olives, in contrast with the mount of transfiguration, as giving the full thought of sonship?
JT Well, no doubt, as you say, the mount of Olives might be connected with the children. Romans 8:14 - 16 gives the two thoughts together: the sons of God and the children of God. The upper room is dispensationally the place of reproach. That is, it has no religious status whatever; and that is what we have to make up our minds to if we want to come out. There is no religious or ecclesiastical status whatever; we are simply outcast persons, like the man in John 9. There is [p. 378] the reproach of Christ, and, in keeping with this, room for the Spirit of God.
WH What are we going to do with our brethren in these systems; I suppose we have to pray for them?
JT Well, indeed, and speak to them as you have opportunity, because there is generally some light there, and you can reckon on God using it. The Lord goes there; He walks in the midst of the golden candlesticks, and He has His own way of reaching the true ones. “Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking” (Revelation 3:20); He never gives up that service. While the Lord definitely announces that He is about to spue Laodicea out of His mouth, the grace of His overtures to that church is most touching.
HH Seven times over it says, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”. I do not know any verse more repeated. It is very striking; it is so important that it is repeated seven times.
JT That shews the continual ministry of the Spirit. He is speaking to the churches, and the grace of His word to Laodicea should govern us in our relation with all our brethren in the religious bodies around us.
Ques Would you say that it is part of the Spirit’s ministry to expose these things to us, so that as judging them in our souls we might be here in defence of the testimony?
JT Well, if you do not judge them, you will not leave them. As we were saying yesterday, the Lord left the Pharisees and Sadducees, and went away; here He left the temple and went away. That means, He has put a distance between Himself and it. It is important to see that there is a moral distance between the believer and those human systems, if he really judges them.
JDS Are we to understand from what you called attention to in Revelation, that the voice of the Spirit never diminishes in its strength right through to the end?
JT No, it does not. “He that has an ear, let him [p. 379] hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”. He is always speaking. But leaving it — putting a distance between yourself and it — is one thing; and then carrying any of the leaven with you is another thing. So that in chapter 16 the Lord “left them and went away”, and then He says, “beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees”, verse 6. You may leave the persons and carry their leaven with you.
JPG You were speaking some time ago as to what the Spirit spoke of expressly as to the last days. Does the Spirit speak expressly now?
JT Yes. The Spirit speaks expressly now, and I should hear what He says.
WHM It is still the same thing for us; and we are to hear the Lord s voice — “This is my beloved Son ... hear ye him”.
JT Yes; the authoritative speaking is by the Lord. And so in Revelation 2 and 3 you get recorded what the Lord said in each case. The addresses are brief. What I think is most interesting is the power of compression that is with God, or with Christ, and yet leaving nothing needed out. So that you have in Revelation 10:2 “a little opened book”, it is a little one. God never intended to make a very large volume. He has got the power of compression, so that He can say all that He has to say in a small compass. And hence the Lord’s addresses to the churches are very brief, you get all seven in two chapters.
RWG That is very interesting, because we often have so much to say about little!
JT John 21:25 says that if all were written “even the world itself could not contain the books”, so that there is plenty; there is abundance, and not a word will fall to the ground. The presence of the Holy Spirit here dispensationally implies that we have got all the wealth of these holy communications of Christ; nothing falls to the ground. But the power of compression is, I think,
[p. 380] a great matter for us in ministry. It is illustrated very beautifully in David’s ten young men that he sent to Nabal; they went and spoke to him. David told them what to say, and they spoke to him after the tenor of David’s words, and it says, they ceased (1 Samuel 25:9). It is the power of being able to cease — to stop — when I have finished.
EG You referred to Revelation 10 — the “little opened book”.
JT There is no thought of large volume. It refers no doubt to Western history. Take Gibbon’s history of Rome — see how large it is. The ‘little opened book’ is for a man to eat; and having eaten it he understands it. He feels the consequences of what it contains, and so John should prophesy again as to peoples, nations, tongues and many kings.
FI Does what you have said correspond with the dispensation of the Spirit — that the Spirit of truth does not speak “from himself”? (John 16:13).
JT Well, that shews the wonderful place of subjection the Holy Spirit has taken up in relation to Christ. He has taken up a mediatorial place, so that what He hears He speaks. God is the source of all.
LES That would correspond with the thought you have indicated in regard to the mount of Olives being low.
JT And so from that point the Lord brings down all high things; everything that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ is brought down. He looks over on the city, and says that all those imposing buildings must come down. I think you can see how the mount of Olives corresponds with the upper room. If you were looking from the mount of Olives you could hardly find that upper room, It would be so obscure; I mean, it was not religiously or ecclesiastically prominent; considered thus it means reproach.
HH There would be a link between what the Lord [p. 381] would say and what the Spirit says. The Spirit would have regard for the summary — how the Lord would summarise things.
JT I think that each of the Lord’s addresses to the churches is like a text. Take, for instance, that to Ephesus: the Holy Spirit might use you — He might use any number of vessels to speak on that text. That is the principle; it is small but may be greatly expanded by the Spirit. It covers the whole position of Ephesus.
JG So that the Spirit is essential as well as the Scriptures.
JT Surely, it is what He says we are called upon to hear.
JG I was thinking of the law — the books of Moses — there was that which answers to the New Testament; but then there were the prophets throughout the dispensation.
JT Just so; they continued on. Many of the prophets did not write at all; Elijah, for instance. As far as I know the only writing we have of Elijah’s is the letter he sent to Jehoram (2 Chronicles 21:12). And yet he is the leading prophet. And so with Elisha and many others. All this shews that there is an immense volume of ministry unwritten. On the other hand many books are referred to in the Old Testament that are not extant.
OG Do you think it is the thought in ministry of opening out what is compressed?
JT Well, that is what I think. The text is what the Lord says, that is recorded; it is compressed, but the Holy Spirit enlarges it to any extent needed. Not that everything He says is written; it is written on the hearts of the saints. The great writing book is the hearts of the saints. That comes out by and by in the heavenly city. There is no compression there.
Rem Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. I was wondering if the ministry would adapt itself to different [p. 382] states.
JT It does. Therefore you depend on the Spirit in your ministry.
RMcB Referring to Matthew 16 again, the leaven is what you carry with you.
JT Yes. We may leave these systems and yet carry their leaven with us, and so leaven what we come to.
Ques Is it not important that everything that is said and ministered ought to be supported by Scripture?
JT Well, that is why we read the Scriptures before we speak. You are not ministering Scripture, but Christ — you minister Christ. You have a conception of Christ, and you read a Scripture because it supports what you have in mind to present. But the ministry is Christ, not the Scriptures.
WHM The Scriptures are of course the writings of the Holy Spirit; you cannot separate the one from the other. Our brother asked if the Spirit of God was not as important as the Scriptures; you cannot separate them.
JT The Scriptures, as has been said, are like the banks of a river; but then the river is very great. Ezekiel shews how deep it is, and that refers to the Spirit and what He effects. The Spirit writes on the hearts of the saints. There is not a single thought of Christ lost. Samuel’s words should not fall to the ground, how much less Christ’s! But nobody would say that every word of Christ is in the gospels. What He said is infinitely voluminous — enough to fill the world, and will fill the world.
Ques Hence the necessity of an alert ear. Is not that the point in what the Spirit says?
JT Yes, quite. “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”. If you let it in, it will become written in your heart; you will be permanently impressed by it.
JH This is all very important, for sometimes ministry is refused because persons want things in ‘the letter’; they do not see what underlies the ministry of the Spirit.
JT Quite so. The Spirit makes application of what is written, as needed. I do not think, for instance, that the second epistle to Timothy was understood in Paul’s day as it is understood now. There is no evidence that it was ever acted upon as it is being acted upon in our day; it was intended specially for the last days.
JH It is ministered now by the Spirit.
JT The great book will be the heavenly city, and there will not be a thought of Christ left out of it; it will be there, I believe.
WW So that the whole beauty of Christ, so to speak, will be seen in His church.
JT And His mind too — intelligence according to Him will be there. The new man is “renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him”, (Colossians 3:10).
WP “Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things”, (2 Timothy 2:7).
JT That is the idea. Not a thought or word of Christ will be lost. The Holy Spirit is here, a divine Person, to maintain all (John 14:26).
HB Is that which is written in the heavenly city that which is written on the hearts of the saints today?
JT Yes. The writing goes on now.
JRS Is that where Israel will read it?
JT I think so; I think everything will be learnt through the church. It is growing unto a holy temple in the Lord. The temple is that in which the mind of God is set out; all is made intelligible by the temple, and this bears towards the millennium.
HH Does the thought of the temple stand in contrast to man’s mind, which is so profane?
JT I think it does. So whilst Corinthians is a local thought, Ephesians is general — a holy temple in [p. 384] the Lord.
HH Would you say that the Lord, when sitting on the mount of Olives, was drawing attention to that which had become profane — today, men’s libraries and so on; they are not spiritual or holy; but in the temple of God His things are held reverently in relation to Him and to Christ?
JT The religious systems today, and from the very outset, are all dependent on man’s mind; colleges, seminaries, divinity lectures, books, etc. There is no idea of the holy temple of God, that in which we get His mind. That is what God has so graciously brought us to in the Spirit. “Know ye not that ... the Spirit of God dwelleth in you”, and, “ye are the temple of God”; the mind of God is developed amongst the people of God as they recognise the Spirit, and themselves as of the temple (1 Corinthians 3:16).
FI Would you say that the Spirit does not speak apart from those walking in the light of the assembly?
JT Well, you would look for that; of course you get extraordinary things, such as an ass speaking, and that the stones cry out. It is what God can do to convey His mind, to afford some light in dark days; but I think the mind of God normally comes through those who recognise the temple and the Spirit.
LM Would this be in Peter’s word: “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God”? (1 Peter 4:11).
JT That contemplates a man who recognises the temple, where the oracles are.
The temple of God is most practical; you get saints together, sisters and brothers, and the work of God in their souls involves a reservoir of spiritual power and light. And when the Holy Spirit begins to move in that setting you get something you could never get alone; you get an expansion of things. That is the idea of the temple, what lies in the work of God in His people gathered in the light of Christ, and the recognition of [p. 385] the Spirit. The temple is in 1 Corinthians 3, and the anointed vessel is in 1 Corinthians 12. The anointing is to bring out what is there — to qualify persons to dispense what is in the temple. It shines out in the power of the anointing, but what shines out is there.
SL So that we should be on the look-out for impressions of Christ in a meeting like this?
JT Yes. It is not a question simply of expounding Scripture, but of bringing in Christ. The Holy Spirit being recognised will bring in what is of Christ. You do not get that anywhere save where saints are gathered in the recognition of the Lord, and the Spirit, and the church.
RW Could we get it through written ministry?
JT Oh, it helps you — it helps the mind, but it never can be the living voice for us. The Holy Spirit works, of course, in the written ministry. The writing of Elijah to Jehoram is very interesting; and of course we have many books from the prophets.
LES In regard to temple conditions, would you say a word on the thought of leadership? Would there be the recognition of what is of God?
JT Well, there would. So that you have the temple, which is inclusive of all the saints; but when you come to the radiation of the light, that depends on the gifts very largely. God has set certain in the assembly — not in the body, but in the assembly; it involves the intelligence and order seen in the assembly. So that I respect others that are present and make room for them, the Holy Spirit is thus free. If you are speaking and something is revealed to one sitting by, you are sensitive enough to know that it is revealed, and you sit down. That makes room for the Spirit, and there is thus the radiation of the light in the assembly.
GFG Do you get the confirmation of what you have said in the fact that the wording of the hymn is not given? (chapter 26:30).
JT “They went out to the mount of Olives”. You have a beautiful touch there in the fact that it does not say He led them out. They went out after the hymn. I think it is a mutual thing. We had before us the mutual thing in heaven in chapter 17, but I think here we have the mutual thing on earth. It is a most beautiful expression of mutuality. The finest feelings would be brought out in singing the hymn.
Their private inquiry (chapter 24:5) brought out an important word from the Lord: “See that no one mislead you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they shall mislead many”. There is the danger of being misled by men; that is the first thing the Lord says, for if we are to get the good of the Spirit we must be on our guard against false leaders. Then chapter 26 is, as said already, the mutuality that lies in the Spirit. They sang a hymn and went out to the mount of Olives, which looks as if what the mount of Olives represents is essential if this hymn-singing is to continue. That is to say, if we get another hymn-book it must be on that principle. The revision must have in view the mutual feature, and the wealth that lies in the saints by the Spirit. If there is to be a continuation of singing, I must sing with the Spirit, but I must sing with the understanding also. A hymn is spiritual substance set in poetic mould. The substance is the important thing; if the substance be not there the poetry is nothing.
FI Is the substance brought in to produce mutuality — what has preceded — the passover and the Supper?
JT They were brought together. “Take, eat: this is my body. And having taken the cup and given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it. For this is my blood, that of the new covenant, that shed for many”, (verses 26 - 28). It was intended to touch their hearts in the profoundest manner, and it is such hearts that join in the singing. So that if we are to have a hymn book, it is a question of spiritual substance put into poetic form. David is a [p. 387] model for us; he makes much of the music equally with the words.
EBG You referred just now to the fact that they went out. Do you distinguish between that and being led out?
JT Yes, it is a question of mutuality, not of leading; it is a question of moving together to the mount of Olives. Later on it is said, “Then Jesus comes with them to a place called Gethsemane”, (verse 36). There He was coming with them, but the moving to the mount of Olives is what they did; He was included of course, as Paul was included at Troas when they broke bread: “we being assembled to break bread”, (Acts 20:7).