NEARNESS TO CHRIST AND PUBLIC SERVICE (10)
[p. 303] NEARNESS TO CHRIST AND PUBLIC SERVICE (10)
Rem Perhaps you would say a word about chapter 15 for those who were not present yesterday.
JT The Lord had said, in the end of chapter 14, “Arise, let us go hence”, as if a new position were coming into view, namely, our public position, which is seen in chapters 15 and 16. Chapters 13 and 14 are more private. Chapter 15 is our public position in relation to Christ as the true Vine, having fruitfulness in view. Much was said yesterday in regard to fruit-bearing, and then the attitude of the world as in that public position. For in fruit-bearing there is the continuation of Christ here, and that is hated. Hence the Lord says, If they have hated Me they will also hate you. We are taken into the most honourable and privileged relation — that of friends, in that He discloses His mind, He conceals nothing. To be in His secrets is wonderful. “Henceforth”, He says, “I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends”. “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you”. He has laid down His life for us, as His friends.
Then the next thing in chapter 15 is witness. The Holy Spirit is sent out by the Lord Himself as having been with the Father, to bear witness to Him. But the apostles should also bear witness because they had been with Him from the beginning. Chapter 16 is the continuation of the public side, and the opening verse tells us that the Lord said the previous things that they should not be stumbled. To be forewarned is to be forearmed; these conditions arising, we are [p. 304] prepared. I think we may be helped as to the place the Spirit has as the Comforter.
He is viewed in a different connection in each of these chapters. In chapter 14 it is what He is to us, as abiding with and in us, and bringing to remembrance what the Lord had said, and, as here, furnishing the Father and the Son a means of abiding with us. In chapter 15 He bears witness — sent out by the Son as having been with the Father, to bear witness. And in chapter 16 He brings demonstration to the world of certain things. That is, He is here to vindicate Christ, and so to vindicate the saints as here on His account — as having part with Him. It is important to bear in mind that there is a public corresponding position. They were to be put out of the synagogues, and He says, “The hour is coming that every one who kills you will think to render service to God”. That is, the Jews professedly regarded God — the issue was between them and Christ, and the presence of the Spirit justified Christ. The issue was decided in the presence of the Spirit, in the evidence — the demonstration — He brought in of righteousness, and sin, and judgment.
Ques Would you say that we have to be fortified inside to meet with the opposition in the world?
JT I think that is the way it is presented.
Rem Otherwise you could not cope with the difficulties, the testings.
JT You go out fortified. The Lord said, “The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me” (John 14:30); and then, “Arise, let us go hence”, (verse 31) as it were, into the field of conflict. But how wonderfully furnished they were as having the Comforter with them, and in them, involving visitations of the Son and of the Father!
Ques Does that suggest that there is no place on the earth that would be a compensation for the visitation of the Son and the [p. 305] Father?
JT Surely. It is what we have in a private way.
Ques Could not that be known by an individual — the visitations of the Father and the Son?
JT That is what is stated. The Lord says, “If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him”, (John 14:23). This chapter contemplates their position still in the synagogue; they would be put out, and any one killing them would consider that he did God service.
Ques Saul of Tarsus pursued that line, did he not?
JT Yes; he led in that. He was the chief agent of Satan in that very service. He did it thoroughly, too, not only ejecting from the synagogue, but entering into houses, he dragged men and women before tribunals; the persecution was very bitter.
Ques It was literally true of the apostle that he was the chief of sinners?
JT Yes; he persecuted the church. As knowing the love of Christ and what the church was to Him, he felt that sin with terrible poignancy. I suppose no one had gone so far in sin, in direct opposition to Christ. His whole spirit was in it, “Breathing out”, it says, “threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord”, (Acts 9:1). “Breathing out”, that means that the inner man was in it thoroughly. And then the Lord says, “Why persecutest thou me?” The spirit of Jesus was evidenced in His disciples, they did not resist him; they were led as sheep to the slaughter, as the Lord had been. But he came to the same position himself, “For thy sake we are killed all the day long”, (Romans 8:36). “All the day long”, shows how enduring he was. And so it is in this position in chapter 16, it is a military position; but, as the apostle says to Timothy, “Take thy share in suffering as a good soldier of Jesus Christ”, (2 Timothy 2:3). A feature of the conflict is suffering. He does not say there, Take thy share in fighting, but, “Take thy share in suffering”. It is the ability to suffer that marks off the disciple; it marked the Master. Peter was “a witness of the sufferings of Christ”, (1 Peter 5:1). The ability to suffer was there as nowhere else. The apostle Paul shared in that peculiarly, but the Lord called him for that very reason, to show how much he should suffer. He knew how to inflict suffering, but now he came to it himself, and he is concerned that the sufferings of Christ should not be behind: “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake”, (Colossians 1:24). As if he were concerned that the assembly should not be behind, it should be in keeping with Christ, in the way of suffering.
Ques What is the force of “that which is behind”?
JT I think that the saints were remiss; I understand that the quantity of suffering was not there that should be there. It is given to you on behalf of Christ, “not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also”, (Philippians 1:29). The book of Revelation brings before us the Lamb — a title that points to the Sufferer, and the assembly is brought out at the end as the “Lamb’s” wife, not ‘Christ’s’ wife, or the ‘Lord’s’ wife, but the Lamb’s wife; and I apprehend that she bears evidence of correspondence with Him in suffering — she is thus suitable to be His wife.
Ques Do you mean that the force of the word ‘behind’ was that they had come behind in suffering?
JT The apostle spoke of the filling up of “that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ ... for his body’s sake” — the whole assembly is in view.
Rem Some were reigning as kings, not suffering.
JT God set the apostles last, as appointed unto death. They were extraordinary in that way. God set them out as a spectacle to all men, so that up to that hour, Paul said he suffered reproach (1 Corinthians 4:9);
[p. 307] it was the order of the day, in regard to him. And hence he enjoins Timothy to take his share in it. The thing is there; each one has got his share. The apostle, I think, took more than his share in filling up that which was behind. “Take thy share in suffering as a good soldier of Jesus Christ”.
Ques Do you think it would be well, that when souls desire to take their place of privilege, you present the suffering side to them?
JT I think they should be made aware “that through much tribulation” we must enter; not that we should be brought in, but that we should enter; (Acts 14:22). It is by way of suffering. It is not kindness to hide from people the consequences of identification with the rejected Christ. Current religious organisations would assume that He is not rejected, that the position is not a suffering one, but it is. And it is not kindness to hide from believers the consequences of identification with a rejected Christ.
Rem Otherwise they will be offended or stumbled afterwards.
JT That is what it means; it means that they turn away because the trial is so severe, as we know often happens.
Rem I suppose the Lord did not want them to be taken by surprise.
JT Well, that is what I think. To be forewarned is to be forearmed; as He pointed out in the sowing of the seed, that persecution arises and they become offended. You do not want to have people come into the fellowship to become offended and turn away from it.
Rem Suffering here seems to be of a religious character.
JT I think that is the bitterest of all. As we were saying, Saul thought he did God service; his [p. 308] mandate was from the high priest, not from the governor.
Rem It shows that we are really blind, naturally.
JT Yes; we want to be watchful about persons being offended — to warn them. That is to say, to bring it before them, as the Lord enables you, that suffering goes with identification with the rejected Christ. Chapter 15 shows that the world essentially hates Christ, and it hates those who bear fruit as He did. The world hates that. They have “both seen and hated both me and my Father” (verse 24), and hence the disciples. And so He says, “These things I have spoken unto you that ye may not be offended”. You are in honourable connections if you are suffering; you are on the side of the Father and the Son. “And these things”, He says, “they will do because they have not known the Father nor me. But I have spoken these things to you, that when their hour shall have come, ye may remember them, that I have said them unto you”. Notice, He reverts to that — why He had spoken these things — to forewarn us.
Ques “These things” — are they the things He speaks in these chapters, from the 13th?
JT Yes; particularly chapter 15, I think.
Rem “When their hour shall have come”, the time would come when these things would apply.
Ques Does He suggest that His telling them these things should arouse exercise?
JT Yes. They are spoken of to forearm us, as well as to forewarn us. When the hour is come for persecution, you are not taken by surprise, nor turned away by it; you understand what it means.
Ques What has He in His mind when He says, “None of you demands of me, Where goest thou?”
JT I think He touches their indifference to His interests. He said in chapter 14, “If ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father” (verse 28). They were thinking of their own side altogether. As we [p. 309] know, it is innate in us to think of our own side, so here He felt it that they did not ask Him, “Where goest thou?” They were so preoccupied with their own side that they lost sight entirely of what He was going into. He was going into much that He valued.
Ques “These things will they do because they have not known the Father nor me” — does that refer to the visitations of the Father and the Son?
JT No; it refers, I think, to what came out here. He said, “They have both seen and hated both me and my Father”. It refers to what God is as seen in Jesus. They hated both. Now they should see holy corresponding traits in His disciples, and they would persecute them accordingly. It was really because they did not know God.
Ques Would you say that this spirit was in Diotrephes?
JT Just so; only that he wanted to have the “first place among them”, (3 John 9). It is the same kind of thing, only arising in the very bosom of the assembly — where one wishes to be pre-eminent.
Ques What is the difference in the thought expressed in chapter 1, where it says, “Where dwellest thou?” (verse 38) and here, “Where goest thou?”
JT I suppose chapter 1 referred to the retreat He had while here; it was in the Father’s bosom as we often speak of it. That is, He would retire to be with the Father, He would have to say to the Father. As they said, “We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father”. They saw that. He invited them to come and see, and they came and saw where He abode. In that abode they would see what He was to the Father. But here He is literally going to the Father; the Father had given all things into His hands, and He was going to the Father. He was going away to the Father. He alludes here to His literal going into heaven, as He says later, “I ascend unto my Father, and your Father”. That is literal, but whilst He was here upon earth it was more like what we have now, what we can retire into in a spiritual way. They were not interested in His side at all, and it comes home to you as to how much you are interested in the Lord’s side of things.
And, hence, the coming of the Lord has been so much restricted to what we speak of as the catching up of the saints. The catching up of the saints is our side, whereas the coming of the Lord is what He comes into. The crown of righteousness belongs to those who love His appearing, because it is a question of what He comes into. He upbraids them here as to not asking. It is much greater to think of what He comes into, than to think of what we come into.
Rem The bride (Ephesians 5) is what He gets.
JT “He that hath the bride is the bridegroom”, (John 3:29); and besides, He comes into all His rights.
Rem “Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing”, (Ephesians 5:25 - 27). That is what you called attention to; it is what He gets.
JT That is what He gets in the rapture — He gets that, but then He also comes into wider glory — all His rights, as I said. Thus, those who love His appearing think of what He comes into in taking up things on earth, His rights in Israel and the nations.
Rem “Ye do show the Lord’s death till he come”, 1 Corinthians 11:26.
JT Yes; you are thinking of His coming — the public thing.
Rem So that compensation for the suffering is to be in unison with the heart of the Lord, as to what He is coming into.
JT Quite so. Here He says, “If ye loved me, ye [p. 311] would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father for my Father is greater than I”, (chapter 14:28). If they had been thinking of His side, that is how it would have been. How He would have loved to have opened up to them things about the Father, and the heavenly position. Not that everything is not opened up now, for the coming in of the Spirit opens it all up. They did not inquire about that; if they had inquired about it, doubtless He would have told them much more.
Ques Would you say that if we stop short of His side we miss the compensation, and also we shall not have the suffering in the same way?
JT Yes; if you are concerned about His side, you will get something about it. Whatever feature of the truth you are exercised about, you will get light about it.
Ques Should we not also escape a good deal of suffering if we were only concerned with our own side?
JT The Lord values greatly our thinking of His side. If you are interested in it, you will get light about it, I have never known that to fail. And hence, if they had been occupied with His side, doubtless He would have occupied them much with that; but the Holy Spirit would bring all that to them. This would include Paul’s ministry.
He enlarges here on what the Holy Spirit would be, as coming out. He alone can witness to what is heavenly. The apostles could witness to what He was here, the Holy Spirit is a witness to what is there. And I think, therefore, that the witness of the Holy Spirit, being based on the fact that He was with the Father (”the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father”) would bring out what the Father thought about Christ. What the Father thinks about Him would be indicated in that; and what a place man has there in Christ, what a reception he has in heaven. It is the Holy Spirit that brings the tidings of all that [p. 312] to us, and hence, I think, the ministry of Paul is specially in view.
Ques Ought there to be a distinct exercise with us on the line you have indicated?
JT Certainly; the Lord would lay it upon us that He is coming into things: “None of you demands of me, Where goest thou?”He feels it now if we are not concerned about His side. What is the assembly coming into? That is a fine inquiry, but then, What is Christ coming into? The whole of Revelation 21 is taken up with what He is coming into. First, the bride is adorned, she is new, and she is adorned as a bride for her husband. And then, in verse 9, it is “the bride, the Lamb’s wife”. That is to say, she is in keeping with Him as suffering. But in the first part it is “her husband”, and there is full suitability to Him. She is “new”, “holy”, and “adorned”.
Ques Has the feet-washing that in view — part with Him, that they might be interested in His side?
JT I think so; they should have part in all that He was going into. So that He says to Laodicea, “Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking; if any one hear my voice and open the door, I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me”, (Revelation 3:20). He leads us on to His own side, and that is really what the assembly has properly. He is Head over all things to the assembly, but then He is Head over all things.
Ques Does chapter 16 suggest the saints coming out in testimony towards the world?
JT That is right. Our position here in testimony is in view in this chapter; it is testimony — the suffering and conflict occasioned by it.
Rem Then in chapter 15 it is more fruit-bearing — what God gets in the saints.
JT That is right. Chapters 13 and 14 are the inner position — what we have inside.
Now the Lord goes on, “I go to him that has sent me, and none of you demands of me, Where goest thou? But because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. But I say the truth to you, It is profitable for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you”. He says, “I go to him that has sent me”; that would be His portion. They did not ask Him anything about that. But He says, “It is profitable for you”; that also comes in, it was necessary for them that He should go, so that the present dispensation is devised in wisdom. Christ is absent and the Spirit is here. The presence of the Spirit is more effective than if the Lord had remained here; more is secured for God by the presence of the Spirit than if the Lord had remained here as in the days of His flesh.
Ques. Why is that?
JT Well, it is seen in the Spirit coming in — not in a bodily form, as the Lord necessarily had — He is more universal. The power is more extended, and as He says, “Greater works ... shall he do; because I go unto my Father”, (chapter 14:12). It is the whole power of God operative in a divine Person on earth, who is here in such wise as to be everywhere, as we may say. He is in all the saints; hence the power is more extended, and in that way more restful. Christ wrought by the Spirit as a testimony, but the full divine scheme depended on redemption, Christ in heaven and the Spirit here. The Spirit being here, the system devised in divine wisdom is in full universal operation.
Ques Has the death of Christ, so to speak, cleared the ground for the Spirit’s operations?
JT Well, it did; and there were vessels formed in order that He should come in and operate. There were “about an hundred and twenty” (Acts 1:15); and He came in in the form of cloven tongues of fire, and sat [p. 314] on each of them. Think of the influence that is involved in that! God is able to speak everywhere. As far as we know, the Lord did not go much beyond a very small area of the earth, whereas the Spirit of God is here in such wise as to be active everywhere.
Rem So we are better off in a way than the disciples.
JT We are. This is the greatest day of all; it is the Spirit’s day. The millennium will be marked by the Lord coming out personally. Revelation 19 is the Lord’s own part in the thing, coming out on a white horse, and the armies of heaven following Him, and His name is called The Word of God. He is King of kings, and Lord of lords. That is, He comes out in that way, and takes up His rights here; but in the meantime it is the Spirit, and it is more effective in bringing about results for God — the assembly is formed.
Ques And would you not say that it is greater, too, because the Spirit has brought the knowledge of the Father?
JT He has brought in the knowledge of all that is involved in Christ ascending into heaven. He has ascended up to His Father and our Father, His God and our God. The Holy Spirit has brought in tidings of what that means. It is a marvellous thing, He has brought in tidings and impressions that are in keeping with the order of things up there — a Man gone up into heaven. “I ascend”, He says, “to my Father and your Father” (John 20:17); He has brought in here not only the light but the feelings and affections that exist up there, so that you have a reflex of heaven here, by the Spirit.
Rem Verse 7 says, “It is profitable for you that I go”.
JT That is what He has in mind, the testimony of what is there, so that it is heavenly things on earth.
[p. 315] Ques Is that the answer to verse 12 — they could not then bear things: “I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now”?
JT That is right. “When he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth, for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming”.
Rem It is the atmosphere of heaven brought down.
JT Just so. The assembly is not far away from heaven; Jacob called the house of God “the gate of heaven”, (Genesis 28:17).
You see in Genesis how it is forecast in the dream of Jacob. He saw the Lord on the top of the ladder, and the angels ascending and descending upon himself. That is to say, there was constant communication between heaven and earth. Well, how much greater that is in the Spirit being here now. That is in Genesis 28; but in chapter 35 God Himself comes down and stands by Jacob — that is like the Spirit here. The full thought of the house is that God is here; God is here by the Spirit.
Rem We should be getting to know the Spirit better every day.
JT Getting to know heaven, so that when we get there we shall not be strangers in it.
Ques What is the thought in the “Comforter”?
JT The word is paraclete, as we have seen; One who takes up all your affairs. He omits nothing; that is the idea. As Christ in heaven omits nothing there, so the Holy Spirit omits nothing here. It is an immense thing to have such an One here.
The term is employed in each of the chapters, 14 to 16. In the epistle of John it is applied to Christ in heaven. The Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment; or, as it reads in the New Translation, “Having come, he will bring demonstration to the world, of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe on me; of righteousness, because I go away to my Father, and ye behold me no longer; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged”. That is what the Holy Spirit does. Bringing in demonstration of these things is not simply speaking about them, but He shows them convictively.
Ques Is this demonstration to the saints?
JT The saints are the only ones capable of seeing it, but it is there for all. The presence of the Spirit at Pentecost was a public evidence of sin in the world; the Jews did not believe on Jesus; now God gave the Spirit to His followers.
Rem The Spirit came to the disciples, not to the Jews.
JT That is it; therefore Christ was vindicated — God vindicated Him. The issue was in God’s hands, and He justified Christ in giving the Spirit to His disciples. The Jews were convicted of sin, in that they did not believe on Him.
Rem It is, “I will send him to you”.
JT Yes, that is important. He is not sent into the world, as Jesus was, but sent to the disciples.
Ques What about the judgment?
JT There is the demonstration of judgment, Satan is judged, the prince of this world is judged. I suppose it came out in a moral sense. The judicial punitive side is in Revelation. Now it is a moral issue which is known by the brethren; we understand it by the presence of the Spirit, we understand that the prince of this world is judged; he understands it, too. The judgment is arrived at; it awaits execution (see Revelation 12 and 20).
Rem All this would enable us to keep clear of the world-[p. 317] system.
JT Just so. And in regard to Babylon, “God has judged your judgment upon her”, (Revelation 18:20). That is to say, the saints have formed a judgment of her. There is also, by the Spirit, conviction of righteousness — “Because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more”. How infinitely right that that Man should go to the Father!