THE SAINTS AS HEAVENLY
[p. 47] THE SAINTS AS HEAVENLY
Exodus 24: 9 - 11; Exodus 25:1-9; Exodus 25:40; Numbers 15: 37 - 41; Exodus 1: 21
JT What is in view is that we might look at the heavenly side of our position. God in taking us up from the outset had this in view, laying the basis of it in our souls in His initial operations. So that in Exodus 1, the houses built for these women would have a distinctiveness that made them different. They would be different from the Egyptian houses. The principle of being different is worked out in the New Testament, the Lord Himself setting it out on the mount of transfiguration, for He became different (Luke 9: 29). And in the houses of these midwives we may see a principle as to our own houses.
Then in chapter 24 we see Moses and Aaron, and Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel going up, and they see what is up there. And then in the next chapter we have the request on the part of Jehovah that they should build Him a sanctuary, which we know from the New Testament was a figure, a representation of the things in the heavens (Hebrews 9: 23). So that we see set forth in type in this sanctuary what is up there; hence the injunction recorded that it should be according to the pattern shown in the mount, shown above, not simply the pattern shown, but the one shown up there.
Then in Numbers 15 the tassels were to be on the corners of their garments, attached to which was to be a lace of blue, the lace of blue also reminding us of what is above, what is heavenly brought down into our circumstances. The tassels were to be on the corners of their garments, that is to say, as we turn round in our life of responsibility down here there is a testimony to the heavenly colour, a testimony that we are different. In taking us up God began to lay [p. 48] the basis of the heavenly in our souls, and we are taken up out of one place in view of another. So that the teaching is one from the beginning, and the babes in Christ are to have the same kind of teaching as the fathers and they are taught by the same persons. The apostle John taught the fathers, the young men and the little children, and the spiritual thought as to the heavenly character of our calling is to be laid in the soul from the beginning. Only a spiritual man can do that. The teaching is to be one whole, hence this thought of the houses, a very familiar thought from the beginning. As children were born to the people of Israel there were those that cared for them and by these midwives Jehovah saved them in spite of the injunction of the king. So that it says that God made them houses, and these houses would be a standing testimony to His thought for His people in an adverse world.
JS What disastrous results there were from Jacob stopping at Succoth and building a house there prior to getting to Bethel where you get the true idea of a house from God’s house.
JT Yes, that is the greatest idea of a house. The houses which He made for these women bring His thought down to the level of our understanding. There is nothing said about the material out of which they were made, but there was attaching to them the idea that God made them. God teaches us by introducing suggestions and impressions as to what is in His mind, but He looks for observation on our side and moral results in us.
Rem It says, “because they feared God”.
JT They feared Him; that is important.
JT-y There is value in young life, God takes account of them, and saves the male children alive.
JT Any of these boys as they grew up and entered these houses would enquire who the architect was, and the women would have to say, God. God is the [p. 49] Architect of the universe. So He makes the universe for a purpose, and He made the houses of these women for a purpose, and He would make them with suitable material. These young boys would never become Egyptian in their thoughts, for they would learn what is superior in a moral sense to what is Egyptian and to what is worldly. Although they were in Egypt where there were houses, the idea conveyed in one of these houses of the midwives would be different from the idea set out in the pattern of Pharaoh’s house.
WS They moved under the hand of God, not under the hand of Pharaoh; they did not fear Pharaoh.
JT In the world, of course, the social world, all the ideas come down from the palace, that is the principle of the social world such as in this country. These women were detached from that, if they were ever attached to it; they were attached to another centre. They feared God and His thoughts would be in their mind to this extent, not yet to the extent that we have in chapter 5. One would not stress the thought too much; it is just an element in the education of the saints, how God teaches us morally. If He builds a house, it is to be looked at and considered as to the kind of house it is; it is sure to be different from all other houses.
Ques Is their fearing God a move on their side and then the houses referred to God’s coming in as you suggest?
JT Exactly, their action was to fear God and preserve the children, which is a great matter. God gives recognition to persons who watch over the young.
Ques Is it like wisdom’s house in Proverbs 9?
JT We have instructions about believer’s houses in Deuteronomy in order that there may be no loss of life caused by want of thought, nothing that would [p. 50] mislead another, nothing that would be a stumbling block to another in our houses.
Rem While the house itself would be a testimony, the moral influence in it would likewise be a testimony.
JT We may be sure that there was nothing wanting in these houses to make them what was needed. God would leave nothing out, but He would not conform in any respect to the Egyptian design.
PL Would such houses have their windows like the ark of Noah?
JT By and by in the world to come when death is removed, the windows will be all round. Solomon’s great house, called the house of the forest, had rows of windows affording plenty of opportunity to see out. But in the ark when death was upon all, it was a question of looking up, not looking out. As in the case of Eutychus, it was a dangerous thing to look out.
Ques Would the houses be the place where there was light as in the houses of Israel (Exodus 10: 23)?
JT That is the idea. Israel had light in their dwellings. The light in the home would suggest that the light was there searching them out, not simply that the light was there complacently, as you might say.
Ques Will you please say a word as to the sapphire?
JT It was under the feet of Jehovah. It is a question now of God, what is under His feet and what was going to be under His feet. He was going to walk with Israel in the wilderness in a tent without any flooring. The idea morally is that every place where His feet stood in the wilderness was hallowed so that the dust of the floor of the tabernacle was used. Every spot where the tabernacle was placed was hallowed, the place of the soles of His feet, the very dust was hallowed. The houses of Israel being places of light suggest [p. 51] the moral side.
LDM The book opens with the sons of Israel. Is it that these great moral features are to be worked out familywise?
JT Yes, the book opens in that definite way. The great family thought stands out at the very outset, involving the recognition of parental authority. So that the sons of Israel are specifically mentioned and you can see the spiritual import of that. Pharaoh would destroy the males but the Lord would preserve them, and these women who were used to that end are honoured.
PL Is it something akin to Lois, the preservation of young life?
JT You are speaking of the mother and grandmother of Timothy?
PL Yes, there was an Egyptian suggestion in his father being a Greek.
JT Showing how faith operates in spite of the conditions, a principle that runs through Scripture. We get running through the principle of God’s activities in spite of conditions, or we may say the activities because of conditions, because faith is at work. It is seen specially in women and wives where the husbands are not very spiritual. But faith operates and they are carried through and God supports it, like He did with Rebecca. It was her faith, and the divine thought is carried through in spite of the father. Isaac wanted it otherwise. And so with these two women Paul honours, what a fine result there was in Timothy on account of faith operating, in spite of the fact that his father is said to be a Greek.
Genesis is the great patriarchal book, and Exodus is to show how the paternal thought runs through in the children, and runs through in spite of difficulties, the king of the land doing all he could to destroy the males. How is the thing to be carried through? Exodus is a book of exploits in face of difficulties.
LDM “Every son that is born”. God was bearing in mind the thought of continuance.
JT You can see that the position of these women was very difficult, but they acted notwithstanding the difficulties as not fearing the wrath of the king.
WS Is Moses himself the result of the faithfulness of the midwives?
JT His mother hid him and his sister also came into it. Then as if God would augment this He brings in Pharaoh’s daughter to help, and she takes on Moses and becomes his saviour. God works with faith. When we face the difficulties, however great they may be, God will work with us and enable us to overcome them.
Ques Is it important that the generation is being preserved?
JT They are called sons, which is very suggestive. “These are the names of the sons of Israel who had come into Egypt; with Jacob had they come, each with his household” (Exodus 1: 1). The patriarchal thought is in Jacob, each one with his household. Each one had a household and they brought them along. That is the great thought in the beginning and Satan would overthrow that. These midwives are just persons in a difficult position and in spite of the difficulties they overcame them and God honours them.
Rem These influences are for the preservation of life.
JT Yes, especially the sons. So that when Moses was grown, not simply when he was a man, but when he was grown, the idea is carried on; he has grown and become a man. Adam did not grow, there is no evidence that he grew, he was made a man. When Moses was grown he went out to see his brethren and so forth. Now he is the great product [p. 53] of all this.
Ques Would the growing suggest the work of God?
JT That is the idea. He has grown under these circumstances and the result is perfect so far. He regarded the people of Israel as his brethren, although they were slaves. He did not look down upon them as a prince, seeing them as slaves; he chose to suffer affliction with the people of God accepting the reproach of Egypt. They were slaves, or as it is said, Hebrews, and he was ostensibly a child of the princess.
Ques Do you regard the midwives as special features in the assembly caring for the interests of God and for the preservation of life on the line of faithful men?
JT I think so. It is to bring out how faith operates in difficulties, one of the greatest lessons we have to learn. We cannot hope to evade difficulties; this book is to teach us how to go through.
Ques Would the order of Herod in Matthew’s gospel be in keeping with this?
JT A very good comparison, Matthew is very like Exodus, it is a question of the assembly, what is being built. We have an excellent example in Joseph: he was a righteous man in a difficult situation, but he came through, God working with him. It is always the way, God works with faith in the presence of difficulties. So that the Child is preserved. The Lord Jesus is called a Child in chapter 2 of Matthew’s gospel, He is taken away into Egypt and then brought back, then He is called a Son.
JWH What is the principle for us today in the Lord building these houses for these women who feared Him?
JT To show how He provides an answer to faith, how He would mark them off, they would be marked by their houses. No one in Israel had houses like theirs, they would certainly be very special houses [p. 54] and if anyone enquired of them they would say, God built those houses. I have to learn something from those houses, God has not built them merely to shelter these women. He intends to convey something in them; they are His own handiwork.
JWH There would be the exclusion of every Egyptian principle.
PL Is this preservation of life in contrast to the Egyptians; they would preserve mummies and so on?
JT Yes, relic makers. You would never have heard of anyone looking for relics in these houses. They are not there; these houses do not belong to Egypt, they were brought in for a testimony. God brought in something better in these houses than would be found in the houses the Egyptians built. These houses are not ruins, and they do not belong to Egypt. They are houses that can be brought into the testimony.
Rem “I will receive you ... and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty” (2 Corinthians 6: 17, 18).
JT You feel how fitting that word would be in relation to those houses, faithfulness in difficult circumstances. We shall never have anything else but difficulties, as the apostle says, “Difficult times shall be there” (2 Timothy 3: 1), and they have come.
JS Will you say a word as to the shittim wood and the various things mentioned in chapter 25?
JT All the things spoken of in chapter 25 really have a spiritual beginning here. It is a question of love to God worked out in ourselves and seen in these various features. Things are carried through.
JS What is the thought of chapter 24 coming in before this?
JT To bring in the great accession of wealth. The greatest source of wealth is the covenant. In Romans righteousness is upon us but then love is in [p. 55] the heart. All this material implies that it is a heart matter. Love is in the heart and God has put it there by the Spirit. That is what is meant in chapter 24. I think it is like Romans 5. In Romans 3 we have a righteousness provided that makes us suitable for God; we are before Him in righteousness, but we need wealth as well, and the Holy Spirit puts it into our hearts as seen in Romans 5. I believe that is what we get in Exodus 24, that is, the covenant, the faithfulness of the love of God towards us. God commends His love. God is so concerned that His love should be in our hearts that He commends it to us. God’s love comes into our hearts, but our love towards Him is seen in Romans 8 and that is material for the tabernacle, for His dwelling.
JS Is that why the blood is spoken of in Exodus 24?
JT And then the going up to see what is up there, because we cannot be down here as a dwelling-place for God without understanding what is up there. We have the testimony of what is in heaven and we are said to be built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit (Ephesians 2: 22).
Rem I was rather struck with your reference to the covenant in the light of wealth: could you say a word or two in connection with Noah’s covenant in that light?
JT We are speaking of the new covenant now. The Lord’s supper carries it through to us, it involved wealth. You do not get the princely thought so much in Exodus. When you come to 1 Chronicles the wealth is more royal, you get the princes brought in; it is another side to bring out the greatness of the persons who have access up there. Here it is more what God is Himself up there. It says, “They saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness. And on [p. 56] the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: they saw God, and ate and drank”.
Rem You were speaking just now of the dust of the tabernacle.
JT I was alluding to the fact that there was no flooring in the tabernacle; there was in the temple. The very dust, the very wilderness itself, was the flooring. God was pleased to place His feet there. The place was hallowed. The very dust put into the water caused “the bitter water that bringeth the curse” (Numbers 5: 18). Sin had to be discovered in the unfaithfulness of the woman to her husband. The dust that was on the floor of the tabernacle was taken and put into the water. The dust of that part of the tabernacle was different because of the presence of God.
JS Will you say a word as to the God of Israel and what was under His feet?
JT It is what He was accustomed to up there and alludes to His love in coming down. It was a sacrifice to God to come down and walk with them and be with them, to have the wilderness to walk in.
Ques Do you get the thought in the incarnation, the Lord walking in this thorny world?
JT In Exodus the dew fell round the camp (Exodus 16: 13), but in Numbers 11: 9 it fell on the camp. It really refers to the people, the dew fell on the people; that is, it falls on us, the grace of heaven affects us, that we receive the manna here.
When you come to Exodus 25 the material is suggested, the kind of material that is used and the specification of the ark, the length and breadth and height. As far as I know we do not get formally the length and breadth of the tabernacle given to us. The tabernacle is to be learnt by the size of its parts; it occupies us with one whole in the various parts. The things are so valuable, they all suggest something spiritual and help us to arrive at the full thought.
[p. 57] With the temple you get the breadth and length and height given.
Moses was on the mount, the mountain of Jehovah. The mountain is always in view, for things are up there where they belong. In christendom things are brought down to man’s level: the mountain is left out and it is a question of man’s level and man’s architecture. Moses was shown the pattern on the mount and he made all things according to that pattern.
Ques What is the thought of eating and drinking in chapter 24?
JT They continued their life up there. God shows how considerate He is for them under these circumstances. The Lord ate and drank before the apostles to show them that He was a real Man. He only could use what we call meat and drink, the fish and the bread, in His new condition. We shall not eat fish in heaven, we shall be in a new condition. The Lord came down to the level of the apostles to show that His humanity was so real that He could eat fish. The eating and drinking here is more than that and is connected with what is above.
WS It says they saw God. In what state did they see God?
JT In some way He showed Himself to them; it is left open. Chapter 12 of Numbers shows that Moses had to do with God more than did any other man. It is inscrutable; no one can penetrate and say what it is.
Ques Would they see God in the covenant? It is not a question of seeing Deity.
JT What can we say? We are taught of God. We cannot force God to say what He does not say. He says enough to teach us; we are in the presence of the inscrutable, and yet they saw something. In this chapter the Person is speaking and the people are responding. It is the covenant here, the grace side.
[p. 58] Ques Does the substance of this heave offering, the gold and the silver and the other things, suggest the glory of the Lord?
JT They had seen the glory of the Lord, what God is, now shining for us in the face of Jesus Christ. The saints thus become the material as bringing in the features of Christ. “But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory” (2 Corinthians 3: 18). That is the material.
Ques Does chapter 25 as coming in after the 24th indicate that God is counting that the wealth is there?
JT That is the idea, every man whose heart prompts him. With David it was more himself and the princes, more the royal side. Here it is every man.
Ques Would you give us your thought as to purpose? Are these scenes on the mount connected with the purpose of God?
JT It is Christ, but seen in that setting above, not what He was down here, although it shone out here. It is like the mount of transfiguration — a figure, a representation of things in the heavens. So that the pattern would denote that; man has nothing to do with it, it is outside his range.
Rem In every feature of the tabernacle some feature of Christ would be seen.
JT Yes, but Christ in heaven. Paul said, “We henceforth know no one according to flesh; but if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer” (2 Corinthians 5: 16). It is another state and condition now. That is the idea of the wealth here, the features of what is above brought in, heaven upon earth.
Ques Would the variety of things here have any relation to the variety of ways in which the Lord is spoken of in Revelation, the number of titles accredited to Him, and the way in which He is [p. 59] described?
JT These different materials are varied features of Christ worked out in us because they come out of our hearts. “This is the heave-offering that ye shall take of them” — gold, that is, what is for God; silver and copper, elements of redemption and judgment; blue is heavenly; purple is royal; scarlet is earthly glory; and byssus, indicating fineness and beauty; goat’s hair is separation; rams’ skins denote protectiveness and dyed red would mean that they are different; badgers’ skins speak of the exclusion of evil; oil for the light, and so on; all these things are just varied features of Christ worked out in us.
Ques Would they mark the local company?
JT If there is to be an assembly according to God we must look for these things. These features ought to enter into every local gathering; they are what God looks for. They have to be looked into to see what they mean. It is not simply so many believers, but these varied features of Christ are seen, and can only be seen by the power of the Spirit working in us.
Rem So you would get the idea of the Christ in the heart.
JS Would you say that suffering comes into the purple colour? In Mark they clothed the Lord with purple.
JT I think when purple is alluded to it is a royal colour, but that is seen now in suffering. “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him;” they inscribed on the cross, “The King of the Jews”. I think scarlet is earthly glory, it is put into the fire with the hyssop. Purple is a mixture in colouring which I think would be heavenly and earthly combined, a mixture which involved suffering. It was put over the altar, “If we suffer, we shall also reign”. Suffering is the answer to it now.
Ques Will you say a word as to Nadab and Abihu and the seventy elders?
[p. 60] JT They would stand for full representation, Moses and these two and seventy of the elders.
Ques Is there any difference between the God of Israel in chapter 24 and the God whose glory Moses asked to see in chapter 33?
JT They saw the God of Israel, we cannot say what they saw, we cannot define it. But the glory referred to in chapter 33 would suggest the full shining out of God, although that could not be seen until Christ became Man. He was the glory of God and we see that glory now in the face of Jesus.
Just a word as to Numbers. It is the full thought of the heavenly as seen in the saints in their circumstances here. So there are to be tassels on the corners of our garments throughout our generations, and then the injunction that we attach to the tassel of the corners a lace of blue, which I think means that as we turn round the corner, maybe on the Monday after the Lord’s day, we do not lose the heavenly blue; we are not one thing on Sunday and another thing on Monday, we are heavenly on both days.
Ques Would you say that what met Moses when he came to the bottom of the mount in Exodus 32 corresponds somewhat to what we might meet on Monday?
JT Well, you come into contrary scenes, something that might irritate you on Monday. You leave your house and instead of going to the meeting you go into a cold atmosphere. The idea is that you retain the heavenly spirit, it is on the corners of your garment.
Rem So that a difference would be seen.
JT Yes, you do not drop down to man’s level, you maintain the heavenly colour, the dignity that is proper to the saints. Then it goes on “And that ye seek not after the lusts of your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye go a whoring; that ye may remember and do all my commandments”. That is the principle, you do not lower the standard. “I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt to be your God: I am Jehovah your God”.
Rem Things are worked out during the week, would you say, the fringe and the tassels being what is worked out?
JT They are on the corners, they are distinctive. Then besides these tassels you have the lace of blue, which is a fine piece of work and can be easily torn off. If you have a quarrel with a man that will all go. You retain the blue, this fineness denoted in the lace of blue.
Rem What would govern us in our circumstances? Would what we have on the Lord’s day maintain us through the week?
JT Yes, it is worked out in the finest lace, this fine work, it is ornamental.