THE GLORIFICATION OF CHRIST AND ITS RESULTS AS SEEN IN MEN
[p. 222] THE GLORIFICATION OF CHRIST AND ITS RESULTS AS SEEN IN MEN
John 7: 39; John 17: 1 - 3; John 12: 16
JT These scriptures are, of course, familiar to us, but I think we might profit by linking up the truth seen in each as resulting from the glorification of Christ. One has glorification in mind, both as to what is above and what is in heaven, and then as to this word ‘glorified’ alluding to the exaltation of Christ as Man. The thought is to show how the platform upon which we are is more than that of resurrection, that God is operating from a standpoint of elevation. The apostle Paul speaks of being caught up into heaven, also into paradise (2 Corinthians 12: 2 - 4), as if to enhance his position as witness here, to think of things from that altitude, far beyond the range of this world or this world’s ways. Being caught up to the third heaven would point to the proof of heaven, what it is. The third would be a suggestion of full proof of the thought rather than mere doctrine as regards the place Christ has taken. Heaven is proved now, proved by a creature; not only that Christ has gone up there, but Paul.
HFN Do you distinguish between the third heaven and paradise?
JT Yes, the passage does in 2 Corinthians 12. The first is as far as the third heaven; the other is “into paradise”, as if he entered the thing. The first is more the elevation reached, so that the thing is proved as being the third, involving increase in the thought of heaven.
HH Where it says Christ has ascended up far above all heavens (Ephesians 4: 10), does that go outside of the created sphere?
JT I understand so. The heavens are a most elevated part of the creation, but going beyond them would be a realm [p. 223] unknown.
HH Then He gives a reason — that He might fill all things. How would that fit in?
JT Well, that He can come into the creation from the highest point at any time.
AJG Is it the idea of a dominant position from which He will fill all things?
JT It seems so, one involving His deity. Only a divine Person can enter an uncreated sphere. We can hardly grasp the thought; we can just touch on it, but it is uncreated, it is beyond all the heavens. There is nothing mentioned in creation more elevated than the heavens; the meaning is, ‘raised up things’ — and He has gone beyond them, so that He can come in in His personal dignity and power and fill all things. Paul evidently does not convey that he went anything near that, but the idea of the third would mean full proof of the thing.
HH That is very helpful — a high point from which He can fill everything.
JT The heavens are said to be for height; they represent height. There is depth corresponding, but “the heavens for height” (Proverbs 25: 3), and He has gone beyond all that. The Son descended into the lowest parts, the heart of the earth, and He went far beyond all the heavens, answering to that, to bring out, I think, His deity. He ascended beyond all the heavens, but His glorification in the passages read is more what has taken place in relation to the purpose of God, the fulfilment of His thoughts, not necessarily to stress the deity of Christ, but what has happened so that the thoughts of God should be worked out from that point of view. The rivers of water here flowing out of the believer are linked up with that to show what christianity is. It is the Spirit here, of course, but the Spirit from that point of view.
Ques Do you regard the thought of creation as being a necessity to being glorified?
[p. 224] JT Yes, for the accomplishment of God’s purpose; creation is the sphere of divine purpose. If we have anything beyond it, it is to bring out the deity of Christ, I think.
Ques Would you contrast it with what the Lord says in John 20: 17, “I ascend to my Father and your Father”?
JT Yes. It is not there a question of elevation, but of the Person more — nothing could be greater than that.
AE So do you distinguish between His ascending, as His own act and the glorification?
JT I think so.
AE You attach particular significance to the fact that this occurs in relation to the feast of tabernacles. It is the glorification of Jesus here relative to the thoughts of God. I wondered if the setting in which these things appear would be important.
JT The feast of tabernacles was the best there was after the harvest had been gathered in, but there was not anything there — people were thirsting. The Lord speaks in figure. He speaks of rivers of water flowing out of the believer, but then the evangelist, or the Spirit of God, adding to that, says, “This he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”. That is to say, the evangelist, by the Spirit, brings in christianity. What do you say as to that?
HFN Yes. I would like to get a little clearer what you have definitely in view in the Lord being glorified.
JT It is to bring out, I think, the full moral elevation on which christianity stands as compared with millennial glory and blessing, that the saints might be imbued with that in their outlook and service. So that “this he said concerning the Spirit” is a comment of the Spirit by the evangelist to make the position clear, that if the rivers of water are flowing out, they are flowing out from that source.
HH I suppose it would refer back to Ezekiel’s river.
JT No doubt. “As the scripture has said” — the Lord uses that word Himself.
HH Is it not rather millennial there? Here it is christianity.
JT Yes. We can hardly confine it to Ezekiel because it is what the Scripture says in effect that is in mind. You cannot find exactly where it says this of the believer; it is what you gather up from the expressions and figures in the Old Testament.
HH It does seem a little singular that the writer should comment on this particular point of the truth and say, “This he said concerning the Spirit”, for is there not a sense in which we take all the gospels as governed by the incoming of the Spirit?
JT Quite so. This particular allusion to the Old Testament by the Lord is enlarged on by the Spirit. Verse 39 is not what the Lord says, but what the Spirit, through the apostle, says, I think, to link up the great thought that is given expression to by the Lord with the great elevation to which He has gone. So we should have to search the Scriptures, as indeed He enjoins us to do in this very gospel. If He says, “As the scripture has said”, and you say, ‘I cannot find it’, it is obvious we have not searched enough; that is, I think, what is meant. Because the Lord knew what was there, therefore it would be a question of searching from Genesis onwards as to this thought of water; what is the great general thought as to rivers in the scripture. It is rivers here. The first great thought of rivers is in Genesis 2, and it says a river went out of Eden to water the garden. The garden [p. 226] would be the spot of special blessedness; indeed it is the paradise of God. The river watered the garden, and from thence it was parted into four heads, as it says. That is, the idea was a universal watering, a general watering of the earth. We are told of the different heads by name, and there can be no doubt that the Lord had that great thought in His mind. It is not simply one river, as in Ezekiel, but rivers.
HH There would be a great deal of holy refreshment in the soul to bring about a result like this, the taking in of divine thoughts so that they would flow out from one’s inward parts.
JT It shows how thoroughly the believer is purified, how throughout the idea of the water of purification is effective, for John uses water in two senses, one as purifying, and the other as refreshing. The believer as a vessel could not be used for rivers of refreshment to flow out of him unless he is purified. It is the believer purified.
Ques Have you any thought that God has created and is going to morally elevate it? The Lord Jesus, as coming into His own creation and as Man, has been so morally elevated.
JT Yes, He is in the supreme place designed by God for His thoughts. I believe the allusion is to Genesis 2; the garden is an elevated spot morally; the river went out to water it, and thence parted; it passed through that elevated spot.
Ques Carrying what was there further — is that what you have in mind?
JT Carrying the thought of that spot, the paradise of God, the most elevated thoughts of God, and all that enters into the thoughts of God as to a believer’s service in the wilderness — how great it is!
Ques Would this be subsequent upon chapter 4 of this gospel, “The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life”?
JT Yes, there it is springing up; chapter 4 is antecedent to this in the believer’s history. Before you can touch the idea of a believer being a vessel of living water, there must be the idea of purification, for it is the inward parts that need purifying; the affections must be purified, so that in all my ministry and service I am not thinking of myself — that would be impure — but there is unselfishness, the affections rendered entirely unselfish, the mind freed of any ambition so that I am entirely unselfish — as indeed a river would suggest. A river is suggestive of things coming to you in volume, with great refreshment and fructifying power accompanying its flowing out.
Rem It gives a very exalted thought to the ministry, the thought of its flowing out from Christ glorified.
JT I think that is the suggestion. Paul speaks of a third heaven and then being caught up into paradise, paradise being suggestive of supreme blessedness. Paul is dealing with the idea of the river going that way; the Holy Spirit was in Jesus down here, but it is the Holy Spirit going that way, coming down.
AJG Does it involve that God has the very best things that His love could devise for man?
JT That is what it seems to me. You take Euphrates. Well, one might explore it and ascend to the source without having the slightest thought of what was in the mind of God, and morally that river has come from the garden, from paradise; that was the idea, the four heads with one source only, universal in the bearing of it.
HFN Why does it say, in reference to the first river, that “the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone” (Genesis 2: 12)? Would that have any bearing on what you are speaking of?
JT I think so, I have often thought of that as showing what is in mind here. “The gold of that land is good” — it would allude to the thought of christianity, I think, to the superior quality of the things that are worked out in connection with Christ glorified.
HFN One had connected it a little with John 1: 16. The river Pison means ‘Fulness’, does it not? “Of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace”. Would that indicate the first river?
JT Very good: and “The gold of that land is good:” what fine gold you get in the first chapter of John’s gospel, the beautiful traits that come out in the first chapter, and then in the two disciples that followed Him; indeed, all down that chapter it is remarkable how continuous is the chain of results; and then the Lord says, “Thou shalt see greater things than these”.
Ques So does John, at the beginning, bring before us what men look up to as the best and most elevated belonging to this world, in the marriage in Cana of Galilee? Then in Nicodemus and in the nobleman does he show how Christ supersedes the very best of men’s thoughts?
JT Yes, I think that is good. Throughout the gospel, from the very outset, it is the fulness of Christ, “Of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace”. It is one wave after another; so as you go on, in chapter after chapter, I think you have the gold brought out.
WC There were two rivers mentioned in the scripture you read last night — the river of Egypt and the river Euphrates.
JT Boundaries of the inheritance, you mean. I think that John’s gospel would work it out. “The gold of that land is good”. One after another come in; take the woman in chapter 4 — you have the idea of water developed in her. The developments in John lift us up above the Jewish limitations; John works it out in a positive way here, and while [p. 229] it is here, he connects it with what is up there — coming down.
Ques How does this fit in with the thought of the river flowing out from the throne in Revelation 22: 1?
JT You have what has been alluded to in Ezekiel 47, the waters flowing out from beneath the altar, and what strikes you is the fructifying power of it and that there is everything that conduces to life, even flowing to the east, a sterile district of the Dead Sea, all is turning to life, life in power there. And I suppose John in Revelation 22 alludes to that, only he makes it flow out of the throne, really out of the heavenly city, and what he stresses there are its crystal-like qualities, over against the qualities of the statesmanship in this world, all that has developed under christian influence, the corrupt darkening influences of diplomacy and that sort of thing. He enlarges on Ezekiel’s river, I think, in that way causing it to flow from the throne instead of the altar. And he speaks of the street of it, and the tree of life on either side — a very fine allusion to the millennial state of things.
Ques Is it rather a lower idea bringing in the thought of authority?
JT Yes, I think it is over against diplomacy amongst men, showing what influences will flow out in the millennium from the heavenly city. A river is very largely a question of influence.
HH Might I ask you as to the thought of Son of man in relation to being glorified? What relation has that to what you are saying?
JT It is all of the same piece, only in John 13, when Judas went out, the Lord said, “Now is the Son of man glorified”, meaning He would be glorified morally as to what He did on the cross: “And God is glorified in him”, it says — that all alludes to what He did at the cross; it is a question of moral glory. Then He says, “If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself” — that is, He would give Him such distinction, and He would do it immediately.
Ques Do you think that refers to God Himself or to Christ Himself?
JT I think God Himself; it is very personal. But then it says He will glorify Him immediately; what is immediate would be the present glory Christ has in the assembly.
Ques Would you link that with what we have in chapter 7?
JT Well, glorifying Christ in chapter 7 is more official, I think, in order to effect the counsels and the thoughts of God, but chapter 13 is more personal; that is, because of the moral glory that shone out in doing the will of God, God would glorify the Son Himself and glorify Him immediately. But in chapter 17 you have the Lord saying to the Father, “Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee”. Now we have glory in relation to His Person, His place with the Father, and that works out in glorifying God, the carrying out of all the divine thoughts here inclusive of eternal life, “As to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal”. It is a question of the Son, not the anointed Man as in chapter 7; it is a question of the Son, that Person, engaged in carrying out the divine thoughts, glorifying God in that way, specially in the gift of eternal life.
Ques Would this present the glory of the last Adam in chapter 17?
JT Just so, it is the quickening Spirit who gives eternal life.
HH Say a word as to what you have in mind with regard to eternal life.
JT It is connected here with knowledge; elsewhere it is connected with an order of things into which one enters, or in which one has part. “This [p. 231] is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. That is, it is a question of having things on earth here in persons who know, not rivers flowing out in the wilderness, but intelligent persons, persons who know the true God and Jesus Christ. It is the kind of person God intends to have here upon earth, persons who know and have eternal life in that way, who can give an account of things.
AJG So John closes his epistle on that note, “We know that the Son of God is come”, and so on.
JT Yes, and the more we think of it, the more we can see the moral greatness of it that He brings about a race like that, for it is no question of heaven, but of what He effects down here where sin and idolatry are.
HFN Is not that true of every scripture in the New Testament that presents the glory of Christ, you have always a corresponding answer to it down here?
JT I think that could be worked out very profitably. I only suggest these two passages to show, in a general way, how John deals with the matter, that what we are engaged with is a question of moral elevation.
HFN I do not think there is an exception throughout the New Testament but where you can trace a corresponding answer down here to the Lord as glorified.
JT Will you tell us a little more.
HFN I was only thinking that perhaps Philippians 2 would substantiate that; after the Lord is presented as glorified, the saints come out as lights in the world. Then John 13: 35 would bring them out, “By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves”. You get a circle of love, do you not?
JT [p. 232] Very beautiful, and it brings out what christianity is, the quality and the extent of it. This brings out a race of men here on earth who know God, “That they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. That is what I think we have here, the race of men He affects. Paul says, “One Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him” (1 Corinthians 8: 6), whoever we are, it is “by him”. Here it is what we are here in the place of death and ignorance, resulting in idolatry and superstition, that He effects this by Him in that way, and that is a very great matter at the present time.
AJG In John’s epistle Christ is spoken of Himself as the eternal life; would you say what is the bearing of it? “He is the true God and eternal life” (1 John 5: 20).
JT I suppose it links up with this passage. It is what He is as a representative; the fulness is there, for in truth it is in Him that we have to do with God. I think our minds are very vague as to God; our thoughts are very scattered in speaking to God. Our created minds require something to centre on, something that we can, as it were, compass — that is, a Man, and that is, I think, how John would help us and bring us to know God in Christ. He does not give us the least suggestion that he fears contradiction; here it is ‘Thee’, that is the Father, there it is the Son who is the true God, a remarkable way of bringing out the Deity, whether in one Person or another, never seen in the Two severally — I mean we have not two Gods — but in the Father or in the Son, or maybe, in the Spirit. But when Jesus is said to be the true God that settles our minds, it makes them restful. I can compass something of Jesus. If I think of the Father, I think of His voice — I have never seen Him; but, when I think of Jesus, then I have a Person who is compassable, in a measure at [p. 233] least. How that steadies the mind in prayer, in worship, that it is there that God is!
HH “He is the true God and eternal life”. Does that not agree with what you have been saying? That is, it is what is true of Christ now as glorified — not that it was not true before. Is not that the setting of the scripture?
JT I think so. John’s epistle is what He is now. He uses ‘was’ too: “That which was from the beginning;” but “He is” is the present. But the eternal life means what He is as Man as pattern for the race.
E The second verse of chapter 17 seems to be prior to the first in a sense. “As thou hast given him authority”, the Lord then prays that the Father might glorify Him. “Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee; as thou hast given him authority over all flesh”. That seems prior to the glorification, does it?
JT I think it is in view of the glorification. He is the Head of every man, of course; He has authority, but I think it is in the glorified position that He effects everything. “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand”. But, as far as one can see it, He never finished anything down here. He finished the work of redemption, but all that He did, as here in the flesh, was preliminary, the finishing of everything is in the glory — here is nothing finished down here really. “I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it” is spoken here anticipatively of the work of redemption.
Ques Does John’s presentation of Christ glorified stand over against the attitude of the world in rejecting Him, not recognising who He was?
JT No doubt, but I think in chapter 7 it is official; He had come here and the Holy Spirit was here in Him, but nothing could be effected from that [p. 234] point of view until redemption was accomplished and He was glorified. So that now He is officially there and the Holy Spirit is here. That is, the position of christianity is fixed, and then the work goes on, I think that is what is in mind in chapter 7. In chapter 17 it is the Son, to bring about a race suitable to God, not yet for heaven — that is not the point in the earlier verses. Lower down, when He touches the idea of “the men whom thou gavest me”, His mind is on the heavenly side, but here it is for the earth, that there should be such persons here — who else could understand?
HH That is why F.E.R. used to say that eternal life was in contrast to a spirit of death down here now.
JT Quite so. The idea of eternal life earlier in the gospel is almost invariably in view of blessing.
Rem So that you have a moral foundation there for the entrance into what is spiritual in the earlier part of the chapter. These verses bring out an order of man that stands; the point is to glorify God, “That thy Son may glorify thee”. It is not our blessing here, it is more to glorify God, that there is such a race of men who can stand the test in the presence of death and of idolatry.
HB Would this knowledge then be knowledge given from the glorified Son of God, thus making eternal life a very glorious thing?
JT Yes, from the glorified position. I should like that we should get into our minds the thought of this race of men, men who know God as the only true God, for it is over against the ignorance there is in the Establishment and in Rome, and in all these man-made things, and, of course, in heathendom and Judaism, which is all darkness and superstition. Well, what a thing it is to have men here who know God, the only true God; that is what the Lord has in mind, to have such men as that here in this world.
[p. 235] Ques Would it be like the last verse of chapter 16, “I have overcome the world”? He would have us here as overcomers.
JT That is how it works out. “Jesus Christ”, not ‘Christ Jesus’ nor ‘God’s Son’ in this particular statement, but “Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. I have no doubt that John’s epistle opens it up in a fuller way.
Ques Would Paul and Silas in prison, in Acts 16, superior to every element with which they were surrounded, be an example of men in the good of eternal life?
JT Quite so.
Ques Is there a difference between ‘life eternal’ and ‘eternal life’?
JT “The eternal life” — the Lord had in His mind the whole idea of it, that is, that we should know God, know the Person to whom He is speaking, and know Jesus according to what He was down here.
HFN Would you mind opening up a little more what you referred to as the difference between eternal life as on the ground of blessing, and then as producing this race of men?
JT I think the former is an order of being, an order of things, as the end of our exercises before God. As to entering into it, the Lord says in Matthew 25: 46, “These shall go away into eternal punishment, and the righteous into life eternal”. It is an order of things which is described, I think, in the Lord when He left Jerusalem at night and went to the mount of Olives; He lived there with God — I think that is a description of it.
HFN I think it is a point we should all like to have some help about.
JT Eternal life is a sphere and order of things that takes us out of the world. “There hath Jehovah commanded the blessing” (Psalm 133: 3). But what He has in mind is a race of men here in the presence [p. 236] of idolatry.
HFN In the Songs of degrees you have the thought of brethren dwelling together in unity (Psalm 133) and then the Lord commanded the blessing; would the men standing by night in the house of the Lord (Psalm 134) represent what you are speaking of?
JT Quite so. The blessing is one thing, but coming out in the good of it is another thing. What can we do in these days unless we know “the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”?
HFN Would you mind just contrasting your thought of the knowledge of God in the way you have been speaking of it and what is involved in the message the Lord sent by Mary? What is the difference between our knowledge of God in relation to eternal life and our knowledge of God as opened up in chapter 20, “My Father and your Father ... my God and your God”?
JT The latter is an eternal setting. “This is the true God” is, of course, a relative term over against idolatry; and “Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent” is a relative thought. But the bearing of “my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God” is eternal; it is not the ‘true God’, it is “my God”. Beautiful delivering thought to get alongside of Jesus, so to speak, and see how He would speak to God! What an advantage the apostles had in listening to Him speaking to God — what a wonderful thing it was! You would never forget it if you heard the Lord Jesus speak to God; you would get a grasp of God you could not have otherwise.
Rem The Athenians had an altar to the unknown God (Acts 17).
JT Quite so; this is over against that. Paul begins with the thought, we are all His offspring; that is one element in the knowledge of the true God.
AJG It greatly enhances the idea to connect with it the thought of God being glorified here in the [p. 237] midst of actual conditions, that this thought of eternal life has that in view.
JT The one would be an out-of-the-world condition of things, as Mr. Darby said, which is described in the Lord’s position on the mount of Olives at night; and then the turning round and coming into conditions here as representing the order of man who will do the will of God, I think that is what is in mind. One who will glorify God in those circumstances.
Rem Mr. Darby spoke of the relationship and being in which eternal life consists. How do you understand that relationship?
JT Well, it is set up here in relationship to God who is revealed to us there; you speak to God as your Father.
HH Then, if you do not allow that eternal life comes to an end, what is its relation to that verse in John 20, “my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”?
JT It is a question of what the Lord has in His mind, that is, an eternal state of things. There is no need to talk of eternal life where there is no death to be faced. Not that the idea of life is not always present in eternity, we are made to live with Christ, but eternal life is obviously a relative term.
Rem So “in him was life” is simply a way of expressing life in manhood.
JT Well, that means, of course, more than saying you have eternal life; it is in a divine Person, only of Him could it be spoken in that way.
Rem The last time the Lord speaks of death in John’s gospel is to say the saint should glorify God in dying. We should think He might have said, ‘By what death he should die;’ but He says, “By what death he should glorify God” (John 21: 19).
JT Very good. How could we glorify God in death aside from the knowledge of eternal life?
[p. 238] I am glad you referred to that. “Thou shalt stretch forth thy hands:” that is the idea of true man; it is Jesus, perfect resignation to the will of God.
Rem Had Peter died earlier he might have glorified himself, in his own strength and devotion.
JT Quite so.
Well, the last passage shows how knowledge is connected with the glorification of Jesus. “Now his disciples knew not these things at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things to him”. I referred to it just to bring out the idea of knowledge, knowing things. In chapter 2: 22 we have the disciples knowing after He was risen; that is, knowing the power that was there after He was risen; but here it is not that, it is after He was glorified they know these things.
Ques Is that what the Lord refers to in John 12: 50 before He goes to die? “I know that his commandment is life eternal”. Would you say a word as to “this is” in chapter 17 in connection with this “know” in chapter 12?
JT “This is the eternal life”, you mean. In chapter 12 the Lord says, “I know that his commandment is life eternal;” that is the will of God, alluding to Psalm 133. I suppose the commandment is there; the commandment is eternal life. But in chapter 17, “This is the eternal life” is the full thought of it, the article being before it. We have the true thought of it now; the Lord intends to glorify God in manhood.
Ques Would you say the Lord names the thing for the first time, “This is”? It takes a new character here.
JT It is very remarkable that He should say to His Father what eternal life is. You are dealing with the most exalted thought of it, I believe, for these are the words that passed between the Father and [p. 239] the Son about it. It is a question of the knowledge of God and of Jesus Himself.
AJG What is in your mind as regards knowing in connection with Christ glorified in this chapter?
JT Well, a good deal could be said about it, as to how this range of things is linked up with the knowledge of Jesus. Now in chapter 2 they understood a certain thing when He was risen; it is not that here, but when He was glorified; that is the full thought; so that we should learn things from that point of view.
Ques Was it that knowledge that carried the testimony through in such power in the Acts?
JT John has Paul in mind and he speaks from that altitude. The Holy Spirit come down from that point is the Source of true knowledge now. We see everything clearly, ‘Heavenly light makes all things bright, seen in that blissful gaze;’ it is the heavenly position that dominates everything.
HB Would it be the operations of the Spirit in the saints?
JT That is what is in mind, but he is stressing the idea of the glory of Jesus.
HB Stephen saw the outshining of the glory of God, but he saw a Man standing. He was able to focus his mind upon a living Man, the expression of all the glory of God that to him was inscrutable.
JT The idea of the Man is to fix your thoughts.
Rem As Peter says, “God ... the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus” (Acts 3: 13). God has come within our range in that way in Jesus.