DIVINE DWELLING (3)
[p. 31] DIVINE DWELLING (3)
2 Corinthians 6:11 - 18; 2 Corinthians 7:1; John 14:21 - 26
JT Our subject began with Exodus 20 and we went on to the covenant and the material for the dwelling. What is in mind tonight is just a continuation of that, the covenant being before us. The link with chapter 3 is maintained in these chapters, but the minister, as representative of Christ, is strongly prominent throughout as one (that is the apostle Paul) fitted of God to make divine thoughts intelligible and effective. So that we have here in chapter 6 a list of some thirty-seven items characterising Paul and leading up to the verses read, in which he indicates that his heart is expanded towards the saints, towards the Corinthians; this is all borne out in detail in the type, that is, in Moses. God directs that he, Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders should go up, and says no more. Moses immediately, in true mediatorship, brings the words of the Lord, Jehovah, to the people and tells them all that He said, as if he had in mind that in going up they must go up suitably in reconciliation, and to that end in the fulness of the covenant and in the fulness and understanding of what is implied in the whole position, that is, the unity of the tribes. And so he rehearses the words of Jehovah and the people say, “All the words that Jehovah has said will we do!” (Exodus 24:3) Then Moses builds the twelve pillars and the altar, and the youths are employed as priests, the blood is put into the basons and he sprinkles the blood on the altar and the people and the book, and says, using the word covenant, “Behold the blood of the covenant that Jehovah has made with you”,(Exodus 24:8) for all the people said, “All that Jehovah has said will we do, and obey!” (Exodus 24:7). So that on the ground of this Moses and Aaron and Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders go up and they see [p. 32] the God of Israel and eat and drink and are called nobles, and then Jehovah says that Moses is to come up higher, and be there, meaning that the mediator is now a heavenly thought as we are fit to go up. The heavenly thought is established and the mediator is to be there, that is, Christ on high; as the writer to the Hebrews, commenting on it, says, “For the Christ is not entered into holy places made with hand, figures of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us”, Hebrews 9:24. So Moses was there forty days and forty nights, the idea is Christ on high, and the tables are given there, although the commandments are already spoken, and the pattern all comes out of heaven; that is the principle of divine dwelling.
WJY Would the going up suggest our heavenly calling?
JT Well, I think that is the thought that the dispensation is heavenly. It is not exactly the millennium, it is a heavenly thing, the habitation of God is from heaven. The material is, as it were, from heaven; the pattern is received up there. Moses is there forty days and forty nights in a state of abstraction from natural conditions, because he did not eat or drink.
WJY Does the thought of a heavenly calling go beyond the letter of the covenant?
JT It does. The covenant enables you to take up that thought in liberty. That is why Moses, without any commandments as far as this record shows, brings in the thought of the covenant, brings in the volume of the blood and applies it to the altar and the book and the people, so that all are enveloped in the idea of love, the love of God in Christ. As Romans brings it out, no one can separate us from that, the love of God in Christ; we are sustained in it. That in itself, however, is not the heavenly position; but in the power of it we go up and are owned up there. The material all comes out consequent upon that, and I think we have the same order here in 2 Corinthians. The covenant is in [p. 33] chapter 3 and then we have much about eternal things and our house which is from heaven and new creation; that is, our souls are bathed, as it were, in these great eternal thoughts of God. But then, all is worked out in the servant, in the minister, and so in the end of chapter 5 he brings himself out in that way as an ambassador. Then this chapter shows how he commended himself in these items. These items, thirty-seven in all, a remarkable list, are mentioned to bring out what the minister was, and that he is thus because of what he had been engaged in. His mouth is opened; knowing, too, that they were affected by his first letter, he goes on here to call them his children. He establishes confidence in them and points out what is necessary, in view of all that he has been saying, to the dwelling-place of God. God is to dwell amongst us and walk amongst us.
WJY In measure we learn the importance of the message as we look at the messenger.
JT I think that is the idea. The mind of God comes out in qualified vessels; that is to say, not only is the truth spoken, but it is exemplified. The power is seen in a concrete way in the vessel.
EE Would his mouth being opened and his heart expanded show that on his side there is going to be no restriction in communication of these divine things nor lack of affection in the vessel?
JT That is the idea. The first letter, of course, had done a certain amount of work, but there was much more required, and he points out now that he is set free himself. He had gone through much and his heart was engaged with much, with these great things, the covenant and eternal things. He calls them things unseen, our bodies which are from heaven, new creation and reconciliation. All these things necessarily affected him inwardly. Now it is your turn, he says, “Be ye also enlarged”, also. What we are aiming at, of course, is conditions for the divine [p. 34] dwelling.
EE We see the same things in type in Moses. All he received in the way of light on the mount, he communicated to the people in love.
JT Yes. The writer to the Hebrews tells us he communicated everything, he made known every word of the covenant and he spoke about the blood, too, in volume.
HW In connection with the divine dwelling, you spoke about tabernacle conditions. In this chapter we have the thought of the temple. Would you distinguish and help us as to the difference?
JT The word ‘temple’ has to be understood, like other words, in the context in which you find it. The context in these two epistles is a wilderness setting, because the tabernacle had the idea of the temple as much as what is called the temple. What Solomon built, of course, was the house.
HW Is that more in line with Ephesians — “Increases to a holy temple in the Lord”? Ephesians 2:21.
JT You have to connect that with Solomon’s temple. In these two references in chapter 3 of the first epistle and chapter 6 of the second epistle, the allusion is to the wilderness because walking among them (verse 16) is in the wilderness. The building of Solomon’s temple is a fixed thing in view of the millennium and eternity. This is a movable idea. So that the Corinthians were temple of God locally. “Ye are [the] temple of God (1 Corinthians 3:16)”. The word of course is the real word for temple. “Ye are [the] living God’s temple”. The omission of the article in the Greek is somewhat characteristic of these epistles. It is to bring out the character of the thing without assuming that it is the whole idea.
HW At the same time, is it not so that the two thoughts are to be reached in the apprehension and enjoyment of the saints?
JT Quite so. On the one hand it is the wilderness position and on the other our position in the land.
[p. 35] The wilderness position is movable and provisional; the other is fixed, looking on to eternity. Not that the movable condition ceases, I mean the thing itself, because what we have is the same as what is fixed. So that in Chronicles the tabernacle is merged in the temple; the whole thing is brought in to the temple.
HW Would you connect the tabernacle idea with the position of the saints in the early part of the Supper and the temple with the end?
JT That is exactly the thought. We begin with the local setting and then pass on to the universal and eternal setting.
WJY Would it bear the thought that the tabernacle is more God approaching us and the temple what is dedicated to Him?
JT I think so. The tabernacle is that God is with us, that is “that I may dwell among them” (Exodus 25:8), but earlier it says, “Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, the place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling, the Sanctuary, Lord, that thy hands have prepared”, Exodus 15:17. That is the other side, which God Himself builds. In the Psalms it says, “And he built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth which he hath founded for ever”, Psalm 78:69. It is fixed in the Psalms.
HW The apostle John in his ministry dwells much on the tabernacle side of things — “The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us”, John 1:14, He carries it on to the final thought that God will tabernacle with men.
JT The idea is that God will be near us in lowly circumstances. We begin with that in Adelaide; we come together in assembly, that is the local setting, the position that comes under man’s eye, and God comes there. “In all places where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and bless thee”, Exodus 20:24, That is not the end. The end is to draw us over to His own side, that is Ephesians.
HW [p. 36] Do you think that, in effect, when the saints come together in that way there is the setting up of the tabernacle, and then there is the carrying through the week?
JT That is the thought. It is a public thing and therefore there is the anointing. In the first epistle, the assembly is called the Christ, “So also is the Christ”, 1 Corinthians 12:12. That is, it is the anointed position here. It is the testimony here where things are contrary. It is the dignity that comes under man’s eye, so that the anointing is to begin in our houses; I mean the dignity that attaches to us as having the Spirit. As we move out to the assembly, everything is in dignity and holiness, even our deportment, the way we sit, the announcements: everything is in the power of the anointing. They are not common things. If you announce anything that is to be done amongst the saints, it is not common; it is anointed and God respects that. The Lord comes there to lead us over to His own side. Hence you have the idea of the love of Christ, and of calling Him Lord Jesus, by the Spirit; everything is by the Spirit. And then you go on to the other side. The covenant comes in to set us free, and what marks the covenant is glory. It is not only the anointing but glory.
WJY So the covenant produces the conditions in which God can come to us.
JT Well, yes. The anointing, I think, suffices. “In all places where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and bless thee” (Exodus 20:24). That is in chapter 20; but the glory is a further thought, that is, it is the Spirit making the idea to shine, to permeate all. The glory is there.
HW The effect of the covenant here in Exodus 24 would seem to be to liberate Moses and the nobles who went up.
JT Yes. And it is above that you get the glory, in that chapter. The glory of the Lord abode on [p. 37] Mount Sinai for seven days. That was where it belonged for the moment, but in the end of the book it comes into the tabernacle and fills the tabernacle because of the conditions. The glory is distinct from the anointing. The tabernacle is anointed and every part of it set up, but the glory is distinct from that; it is an advance on that. I think the glory involves the covenant. It is a further thought but it is not the final thought; the final thought is the family. You have to go to David and Solomon for the final thought.
HW That is what I thought in connection with the effect of the covenant. It is liberating with this other side in view.
JT With the other side in view, that we might go on to the eternal thought, and for that you must have David and Solomon. Joshua does not help on that at all. The book of Joshua is not the service of God in the way you get it in David and Solomon; so that if we cut out time, we have to add on David and Solomon to the end of Exodus. After all, time is only connected with the ways of God. When He reaches His end in our souls, everything merges and we are able to pass on to Ephesians. That is the divine thought. God has raised us up together and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies.
WJY Would not Joshua be a link between Exodus and Chronicles?
JT Not with regard to service. There is a link as regards passing out of death into life; there is a link there which is probably Colossians.
AJD It is necessary for us to understand the glory of the covenant before we can move to the other sphere.
JT That is the thought. The covenant comes in properly in the force of it after we drink the cup; after they all drank out of it, the Lord told them what it was. Then they sang a hymn, that is, they were liberated. That is the order.
HW [p. 38] Was teaching connected with it?
JT Certainly there was teaching connected with it. It is the Mediator that makes it effective.
AJD Is it to put glory upon us that we may be free to move?
JT We go up gloriously. Two men appeared in glory, that is, their dress.
RST Would you say a word as to glory?
JT I think it is the thing that shines out. It is what God is, not in His eternal thoughts, but in His covenant thoughts. It is what He is in love, that is, in the sacrifice He made. He “has not spared his own Son, but delivered him up for us all”, Romans 8:32. The sacrifice is made. How He would let His heart flow out to us!
EG Is the way Stephen presents things in Acts 7 what you were saying, the testimony of Joshua, David and Solomon?
JT Quite so. He goes through the course in a beautiful way, he even tells us about Moses in the assembly in the wilderness. That is a good thought: Moses in the assembly in the wilderness, what he did there.
HW Think of the glory filling the house! In the end of Exodus it says that Moses could not enter the tent of meeting because of the glory, but in Chronicles the priests could not stand. Would you help us as to the difference?
JT The first alludes to what we are at now — the necessity for obedience. That is really what it means, that I am fitting in my place in glory. I am anointed. Chapter 40 is just the saints in type, that is ourselves at any given time, as having learned to be subject. They said, “All that Jehovah has said will we do, and obey!” (Exodus 24:7) We are sanctified unto the obedience of Christ. Sanctified unto — it is that kind of obedience, and nothing less than that will fit in the tabernacle.
[p. 39] H,W. Do you suggest in speaking of chapter 40 as the saints that they provide the furniture in that way?
JT Surely that is the thought. Every item fits; there is no suggestion of any incongruity whatever. It is all perfect, and that must involve the obedience of the Christ. We are sanctified unto that and the Holy Spirit in us would imply the anointing. It would enable us to be in that, not only in a passive way but in a living way, so that each knows how to function; as any item is set up it is functioning. It is not passive, it is active; it is active in its own place. Each of us is in the sense of the power of the Spirit, ready to function, each in his own place. That is what God has in mind. He says, I want all that, Moses does not need to say anything more, it is all met.
AJD “He came unto his own” (John 1:11).
JT That is exactly my thought. He would say, I want all that. His glory fills it.
WJY If you sought to touch the eternal side of things without travelling the way you bring before us, it would be disastrous.
JT That is just what happens, it would be mental without the glory. We go via the anointing, via the covenant, the anointing and the covenant and the glory; the glory is the outcome of the covenant — so that we go up glorious.
JS What you have been bringing before us has a wilderness setting?
JT That is the idea exactly. It is in a scene of contrariety that this comes about. Think of a number of saints sitting down together in perfect subjection to the Lord, each in his place as anointed, as having the Spirit! If a person is anointed he says. Lord Jesus. He says it in the power of the anointing and that affects everybody present; it has a powerful effect. That is the note to keep on until you get another note.
PD To go back again to the covenant after having addressed the Father would be out of [p. 40] order.
JT I think so. It is better just to go on. Sometimes we take up the thought of the Father too soon, we have not the glory. You need the glory. If you look through Exodus you will be impressed with the idea of the glory.
HW I was impressed with the great dignity that marks the saints as coming together in that way, but as together we require to be controlled.
JT That is what the Lord is seeking to bring about, to bring us into the dignity of the position, that things are not common. We should not sit together in any common way. We should learn how to sit bodywise, involving the Spirit.
JS So that there is great dignity connected with us even in the wilderness setting?
JT Certainly that is the thought. There is this before men.
HW Would you amplify that — sitting bodywise?
JT Well, it implies the light in which we sit down together. “Because we, being many, are one loaf, one body; for we all partake of that one loaf”, 1 Corinthians 10:17. So that as the emblems go round, we are not restless, we are not waiting for something in a common way; we are in dignity and affection together. We look at each other as one, as one body. There is enjoyment and increased power in sitting together even in silence.
AJD Is that merging by the Spirit?
JT That is the thought. That is where you realise that in the power of the Spirit we have all been baptised into one body.
HW So that there will be no independent action.
JT That is the thought exactly. That is what Exodus 40 means. God says as it were, ‘That is all suitable to Me; that is delightful. It is all Mine; I will take it all over’.
HW That makes Exodus 40 very wonderful.
JT Ephesians 2:6 touches on what we were and what we are. “And has raised us up together” — it is [p. 41] not together with Christ, but together with one another. Really, sat down together in the heavenlies, that thought comes into it. That is what is meant. You do not wish to go to heaven without the brethren. You want the brethren. If you want them up there you want them down here in the body.
WJY He has made us drink into one Spirit. Is that a present thought here preparatory to passing over to the other side?
JT That is right. I think drinking is for satisfaction, that you are not irritable or finding the position irksome, you are satisfied in the position. A great many are not. A great many are very irritable and find things irksome, if they would only say so, but the idea is to be satisfied. “The trees of Jehovah are satisfied”, Psalm 104:16.
EB Is that what the Lord has in mind when He says, “Drink ye all of it” (Matthew 26:27)?
JT That is right. It does not mean to drink all the wine, but that all the saints should drink what is there.
ARG What do you mean by ‘finding things irksome’? What have you in mind?
JT Any discontent with the brethren. Naturally, of course, we may be in a position that we are not equal to. The anointing makes me equal to the position and the drinking makes me enjoy it. I am satisfied in it. And the merging, the baptism, is God putting me there as fit for the place. “For also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body”, 1 Corinthians 12:13. It all bears on unity, that we are satisfied together in any setting in which God places us, and God comes in. So here we have in our chapter the idea of the danger of all this being spoilt by evil associations, by unequal alliances, which are most baneful. The enemy is working in a most concerted way to cause young people to make alliances ignoring the fellowship, ignoring the Lord. The apostle stresses it here, the contrast between [p. 42] righteousness and lawlessness, light and darkness, Christ and Belial, the believer and an unbeliever, and the temple of God and idols. These are all very strong statements, the Spirit of God presenting the natural disposition with us to form unholy alliances.
HW You are speaking of marriage now?
JT That is the principal one. But there are also partnerships or even companionships.
RST It would help us to see that these are definite statements — light and darkness. There is no middle course.
JT Quite so. He brings in the precious thought that you are God’s temple. “Ye are the living God’s temple”. The living God’s temple, what a thing that is! The word here is the inner shrine, but it is not here a question of getting light out of it, as in chapter 3 of the first epistle, but of God dwelling in that and walking in that.
RST I was thinking of that. If we take these things up in exercise in the light of God’s dwelling, it becomes a much more important thing than our own blessing.
JT Yes. God dwelling and walking. Well, if He walks He will come round to see what is going on. He will take note of what is going on. In the types He was very particular, not only as to what was in the tabernacle but as to what was in the camp. There was to be nothing at all contrary to His mind, that would offend Him.
P There is no room for a difference of opinion and such a thing as agreeing to differ.
JT No. There is no room for agreement to differ at all.
WJY Separation has a very great reward here.
JT Quite so. It is put in that way as worth while.
CSS It says that Jehoshaphat allied himself in marriage and in business and the Lord broke his works.
JT [p. 43] Quite so. The word to him was that he loved those that hated the Lord, and many of us do that. We love ungodly companions, ungodly people.
CSS You were speaking of the Christ. It follows on to say that “God has set certain in the assembly” (1 Corinthians 12:28). It is the recognition of that which we need as being together. God has set in the assembly.
JT Yes, it is a place where He can put things. You might say that, as with a diamond, the surroundings enhance the thing He sets there.
CSS That is where the glory is.
JT Exactly. What a great idea! It is the vessel of divine residence, the residence of divine glory in a world of contrariety. But the enemy is constantly aiming at reducing the standard amongst us, to destroy the Lord’s authority. He would say, ‘If I can get those two young people to unite, if I can get them into fellowship, they will lower the standard and weaken the position. The more I can do that, the more I can destroy the divine thought’. What Satan had in mind in Ananias and Sapphira was to destroy the divine thought, and make it appear that God was not there.
PD Your thought as to ‘in the Lord’ would be borne out by the daughters of Zelophehad. “Let them marry whom they please; only they shall marry one of the tribe of their father”. Numbers 36:6.
JT That is the thought. The preposition ‘in’ is a strong word. It implies God’s power. It is not a mere question of a person being a nominal Christian, but a question here of a real believer. The authority of the Lord is involved in it, active authority. ‘In’ is a preposition of power.
HW Would you say there might be a marriage with a believer and yet it not be in the Lord?
JT Certainly. “In the Lord” involves His authority; it involves the fellowship.
AJD It is important for us to get the divine [p. 44] standard.
JT Quite so. I thought we might see in John 14 how all this fits in with remnant times. What we are speaking of here is normal conditions at the beginning, but John after verse 20 in this chapter records what the Lord says, speaking of one person, “He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me; but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him”. Then it goes on in verse 23, “Jesus answered and said to him. If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him”. I think that is the idea of tabernacle conditions. That brings the thing down to one person and, of course, to any number of such persons, alluding to remnant times, that we may have tabernacle conditions.
WJY This applies when everything official has broken down.
JT I think that is the way; it merges somewhat with Matthew 18. There is a division at the end of verse 20. Up till then there is normality. The beginning of verse 21, I think, alludes to a time when many who professed to be the Lord’s did not love Him. “He that has my commandments and keeps them”, he is the one; he is qualifying as a lover of Christ, and hence the Lord says, “He that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him”. I think we can see how tabernacle conditions and privileges are coming in. Then in answer to Judas, He says, “If any one love me, he will keep my word”, meaning the whole disclosure of the divine thoughts. I apprehend that is what the word means. The keeping of that implies conditions that God can own. The Father and Son abide with such an one as that.
HW Do you think that John’s gospel is intended especially for the overcomer, to enable the saints to be overcomers [p. 45] here?
JT I think so. You can see how this would fit in with the addresses to the assemblies.
HW It has often been said it was written after he got the light of the Revelation.
JT I think that is true. You can see how it furnishes a lover of Christ with everything they had at the beginning.
PD The Lord says to Philadelphia, “Thou ... hast kept my word” Revelation 3:8.
JT Well, that fits in here, and the Spirit in verse 26, I think, is in that connection. It contemplates forgetfulness, that things have been forgotten and brings in the idea of remembrance linking on with the Lord’s supper. There is the idea of remembrance; the Spirit causes remembrance of what has been forgotten, and how much has been forgotten of all that He said! Certainly the whole history of the church is built up on ignoring what He said, but now things are brought back to us; they are brought to light.
CSS What would be the difference between the abode in this verse and in the second verse? Does one lead on to the other?
JT The many abodes, you mean? Well, that is the heavenly side; of course, it is the same word; the heavenly side which is here is future in this second verse, but Ephesians makes it a present thing: “Has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies”, Ephesians 2:6.
CSS You are drawing our attention to conditions necessary for this verse. Would that help us in regard to the second?
JT Well, the second is what has been prepared by the Lord for us up there — a wonderful thing!
CSS Sometimes we sing, ‘There no stranger — God shall meet thee!’ (76:10)
JT Well, quite so. It is what He has done up there. “I go to prepare you a place (John 14:2)”. What we have below is a place for Him [p. 46] here.
EE I would like a little more help on this. This is as they were seated at the Supper table, is it not? Would the beginning of John 14 set out what the Lord has in His mind as a kind of climax? Would what you have been speaking of in the individual set out how we should be concerned to respond to such love, what the Lord is seeking to lead us to in regard of the Spirit?
JT It is a future thought. So when He comes, He takes us up there. What we are engaged with here is what lies in the Spirit. In this section of the chapter it is what lies in the Spirit.
GMcK It says, “If any one love me”. Do we profess each one of us to be lovers of Christ as we take the Supper?
JT Yes. Tell us more of what is in your mind.
GMcK You were speaking of the dignity of our position; this would not only strengthen us in regard to the dignity of the position, but it brings out the link of affection that is proved by keeping the Lord’s word. The Lord distinctly connects the thought of professing to love Him with keeping His word.
JT Yes, keeping His commandments and then His word. Verse 23 is an enlargement, an advance on verse 21. What we remember helps. The time had come when many were professing to love the Lord but did not. Of course, that is our own time. Well, He gives us a test here: “He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me”. He makes the keeping of the commandments a qualification for a lover. No one else has a place. Every other person is questionable. If a person professes to love Christ and does not keep His commandments, he is questionable. He may love Him, but it is questionable, and of course it is a very humbling thing for this to be questioned amongst us. If a person is questionable there is a sort of cloud over him. That is what that passage would indicate. John is very abstract, that is to say, he makes things acute in contrast. He does not want [p. 47] any middle way at all. That is how he quotes the Lord here. The time would come when many would be professing to love Him and yet ignoring His commandments.
HV Is that in order that there would be suitable conditions among the people generally?
JT Exactly. How can you expect divine Persons to come in if the commandments are ignored?
WJY Any one who professed to love the Lord and refused to break bread would be very questionable.
JT Very. And even if they were breaking bread and disregarding the authority of the Lord they would be very questionable.
JS So that keeping the commandments is so important that the Spirit would bring the word to remembrance.
JT That is the idea. The commandments are a sort of clearing; the keeping of the commandments takes you out of any sect, any relations that are contrary or unwarranted. This is seen in 2 Timothy 2. But then there is the positive thing, that is, the word, the disclosure of the mind of God, what He wants, what He requires. It is a further thought involving more intelligence.
CSS Keeping that word would lead up to the thought of dwelling that you have in your mind, and would not that be a sample of what we have at the commencement? “Days of heaven upon the earth” (Deuteronomy 11:21) — as we sing, ‘Eternity’s begun’.
JT You come on to that. Here it is divine Persons coming to us and making Their abode with us, which of course is not final. It can only be provisional.
AJD It depends on our observance of the covenant.
JT And conditions here amongst us, one, two or three or however many, where divine Persons come in. First the Lord says, I “will manifest myself”, and then “my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him”. The next thing is the [p. 48] place the Spirit has. The three Persons are brought in. The three Persons are seen here.
GMcK Why does it say ‘We’?
JT The Lord associates Himself with the Father. It is a wonderful thought. Their coming unto you. Verse 26 is to make scope for the Spirit in these new conditions. In the earlier verses, in the beginning of verse 16, we have the Spirit here in relation to normal conditions; but verse 21 begins abnormal conditions, and verse 26 brings the Spirit in in relation to abnormal conditions, and abnormal conditions require that He is here in the Lord’s name, because that is then the test. He is sent here in the Lord’s name, and as here in the Lord’s name He will teach us everything. It is important at the beginning to see how everything is to be learnt in any circumstances, by the Spirit as sent in the Lord’s name, and the first thing He will do is to establish the Lord’s authority. I do not believe that anything at all is rightly understood save by a person who has the Spirit of God, even making due allowance for the scientific men. I do not believe anything is understood unless we begin with God. The Spirit teaches all things; we get the divine view of them. Then He brings things back to us, because Christendom is really marked by disregard of what the Lord says, whether it be forgetfulness or wilful disregard. “The Holy Spirit ... will bring to your remembrance”.
AJD Is that the whole light of the truth brought to us in that setting?
JT That is the idea. The Holy Spirit is sent here by the Father in the Lord’s name, Christ’s name. In the next chapter, the Son sends Him from the Father. He comes as having been with the Father, as having first-hand knowledge, as it were, of what is in heaven.
WM The character He takes as Comforter is very striking.
JT It is. The word of course means that He is here to take charge of everything. It is a wonderful [p. 49] thought that we can trust in the Lord in a meeting like this. The Holy Spirit takes charge of things in a meeting like this. He keeps Himself out of sight, but He is here in power.
WM So every holy emotion that passes through our hearts and minds is the result of the work of the Comforter.
JT Quite so. You are conscious of that. Room is made here for the Lord, and you are conscious that there is some power keeping things right. Things are kept right in what we say.
RST Would you run over those three things again in regard to the Spirit? The name of the Lord, and the Son, and coming from the Father. You referred to Him here in this verse, bringing to remembrance in connection with the Lord; and then you said in the next chapter that the Son sends Him.
JT In the end of chapter 15 we have “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, he shall bear witness concerning me” (John 15:26). Now the Lord is sending Him Himself, but sending Him as having been with the Father. In other words, speaking reverently, there is a new experience in heaven, which is a thing to be borne in mind, that it is, so to speak, the history of heaven coming into creation. In coming into the heavenly regions He is coming into creation. He has His own realm. There is a history there; a Man is now in heaven. That is history and God enjoys that, and the Holy Spirit being there with the Father brings down here all that which is felt up there about the Son.
RST Does that involve the ten days?
JT Exactly.
HJM Is that why He speaks of the Father’s word in verse 24?
JT Yes. He says, “He that loves me not does not keep my words; and the word which ye hear is not [p. 50] mine, but that of the Father who has sent me”. That is what He was saying down here Himself. That is the Father’s word. As down here the Lord was the expression of the Father, but now He has gone up there. The coming of the Spirit contemplates Him up there, and His presence up there means history and new conditions up there. The Holy Spirit is presented here as having been with the Father, meaning that He is fully cognisant of all that. He brings all that down to our understanding. The Lord says to the twelve in addition to that, “ye too ... because ye are with me from the beginning”, John 15:27. They can bring in order on earth. ‘I will be up there with the Father’. Of course, it can be called the ministry to bring out the place that Man has up there.
EE I think that is very wonderful. It says in the end of chapter 15, “He shall bear witness concerning me” (Verse 26). Would that be to the disciples first?
JT Well, it is “He shall bear witness” and “Ye too”. That is, the Spirit is viewed as bearing witness as distinct from them. It means an additional testimony to the twelve.
HW Does that continue throughout the dispensation?
JT Certainly.
EE That must give a power of dignity to the twelve.
JT It does. It gives them a great place. “Because ye are with me from the beginning”;(John 15:27) they beheld all occurrences on earth. The Holy Spirit alone can tell us of the occurrences up there.
JS Would it be too much to say that the Holy Spirit is so jealous of the word of God that it is His work today to bring the words of the Lord to remembrance that nothing may be lost?
JT That is right. This is a wonderful time. Things are coming out. For us it means that the Spirit may use this or that one, but things are constantly coming to [p. 51] you. But they have been there all the time. They have been forgotten, but they are there, and the Spirit is operating to bring them all out.
HW Were you going to say anything further about “whom I will send to you from the Father” (John 15:26)?
JT It brings out the great place He has there, and He is here. “Whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father” (John 15:26). I suppose the preposition implies that the Spirit is in that relation with the Father, and can bring out here the conditions, the enjoyment of things here. It is the Father’s house.
CSS Is it the expression of divine joy that is wanted to be made known down here?
JT I think so. I think the Spirit brings all that down here. Luke 15 shows the Father’s joy.