THE GLORY OF THE SON OF GOD (1)
[p. 389] THE GLORY OF THE SON OF GOD (1)
John 12: 1, 2; John 20: 11 - 18.
JT I think we have to distinguish between the announcement made by the Father as to the Lord’s Person, in the earlier chapters of the first three gospels, and the attestation that He is the Son of God by the fact of His resurrection.
RSS That was alluded to yesterday and was very interesting.
JT The announcement was made at the outset by the Father, and attention was called to Him by the gift of the Spirit, so that the Baptist and Nathanael recognised Him to be the Son of God; but it is another thing to have the declaration of it by the fact of resurrection.
RSS That is what Romans begins with.
JT Yes. He is presented in the gospel as “declared to be the Son of God with power”, and it is as such that faith rests upon Him.
RSS It is very interesting that the gospel narrative begins by the announcement on the part of God, and the gospel as it is preached begins by the declaration of Him as the Son of God by resurrection.
JT As an object of faith presented in the gospel He has been declared to be the Son of God with power by resurrection of the dead. John says, “this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith”. And then he says, “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” Then he proceeds to say, “This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth”, 1 John 5. So that the faith of Christians is in Christ, known to be the Son {390} [p. 390] of God, having come in by death, not simply as having become incarnate, but as having come in by death.
RSS And that is the signification of coming by water and blood, It suggests the thought of His death.
JT Surely, because He was dead when the blood and water flowed from His side. Then John says, “this is the witness, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”. It is in the Person who is declared to be God’s Son. It is not in Adam, but in the Person who has come by water and blood.
RSS It is in Christ, but in Christ as the Son.
JT As an Object of faith His Person as Son of God is presented to us, He having brought eternal life into form for us. In order that eternal life should be available, His death and resurrection were necessary, but that does not in any way militate against the thought that we were dwelling on yesterday, that He is the true man. It was needful that a man should answer in every way to God if men were to be entitled to live, and there must be the abolition of idolatry and lawlessness.
AFM Where do you get the expression the true man?
JT In 1 John 5: 20. “In him that is true”. It is involved in the expression, “whom thou hast sent;” John 17:3. As the sent One the Lord answered infinitely to God’s will.
WCR In John 17 you get the true God presented, and then in 1 John 5: 20 you get the “sent one” spoken of as the “true God”.
JT “He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me [He does not say he who believes on God or the Father, but” on him that sent me “], has eternal life”.
WB-t In 1 John 5: 20 it says, “And we [p. 391] know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, in, his Son Jesus Christ”. Would that answer to it?
JT Yes. The Person is God’s Son, but He is Jesus Christ, the sent One. That gives the thought of man, I think. It expresses His humanity.
WB-t And then immediately afterwards it is said, “Little children, keep yourselves from idols”.
JT What one sees is, that in that Person is presented the true God and the true Man.
BTF Are you speaking of eternal life as something here on earth? We had looked at it before as an out-of-the-world, heavenly condition. Now you speak of the true Man, and as walking down here in responsibility.
JT I think it is true that eternal life is in an out-of-the-world order of things, for it cannot be realised where lawlessness and idolatry are. But in what Christ was here you see how title to it has been established, in the sense that He carried out God’s will fully. How does Israel come into eternal life in the future, for instance? God had laid claim to their affections; that is, that He was to be recognised as the only true God. He says, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord thy God is one Lord. And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might”. There God asserts His title to their affection. The question is whether they answered to it. Instead of answering to it they made the golden calf, and other gods; that is what Israel was after the flesh. They were not true to God’s demand. They were like a deceitful bow. Now the covenant He made with them was altogether from His own side. They were not equal to it, but the mediator, Moses, was there, but he was only mediator in figure. There is one God and one Mediator. Moses was the [p. 392] mediator in figure, but not in reality. He could not bring the tables of the law into the camp, and he broke them. If Christ had been there, what would He have done? He would not have broken them; He had them in His heart. Moses had to break the tables of the covenant; they had become null and void. If Christ had been there, the law would have been in His heart; and more than that, He would have effected the covenant by dying. Moses says, “Peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin”. He goes up, but it was with a “peradventure”; but Christ makes the atonement; hence in His death you have the true “blood of the covenant”. He effectuates the covenant by dying, and then God says, “I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel ... I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people”. Now it is in that way that eternal life is Secured with Israel; God brings in a law-abiding people, a people who recognise His claims as the “true God”, the God who alone has title to man’s affections. He puts His law in their hearts and minds and their sins are remitted, and therefore they are to be a “true” people, recognising fully the “true God”.
BTF The revelation of God to Israel was that of Jehovah; and in Christianity we have the revelation of God as Father. I thought that in Christianity we come into eternal life by getting the revelation of God as Father in our souls, and ourselves as companions with the Son of God beyond the power of death.
JT I do not think that is the thought in eternal life; that goes beyond it. I think the idea of eternal life is to bring in life where death had been, and it is brought in by God making Himself known in the covenant. There is one Man, the Mediator between [p. 393] God and men, and that Man is Christ. He effectuates the covenant by dying; and then God writes His laws in men’s hearts and in their minds. So that instead of their going after other gods, God has secured His place as the “true God” in their affections, and hence Israel lives. They do not die as in the wilderness, because His law is in their hearts.
RSS I think, that what you have been saying is borne out by what we find in the gospels; in such scriptures, for instance, as Luke 10, and again in chapter 18. We find there, two persons coming to the Lord with the inquiry as to how eternal life was to be obtained, and in both cases the Lord refers to the first covenant.
JT “What is written in the law? how readest thou?” There it was put on its true basis in regard of Israel; but in John 6 the Lord says, “Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you; for him hath God the Father sealed”. And then they raise the question as to how they can work the works of God, and He says, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent”. That was the point to get hold of. There was the sent One, the One who would carry out God’s will, and what they were to do was to believe on Him.
RSS In that connection, as the One sent of God in order to accomplish His will?
JT Yes; “him has the Father sealed, even God”. Then the Jews refer to the manna, and the Lord opens up His great position as Man, so that He should be food for men; that men should not die, but live.
AFM Do you think, that the way Israel is brought into eternal life in the future illustrates the way we are brought into it?
JT [p. 394] Yes, the covenant is the great thought. The new covenant lays the ground for eternal life.
WB The testimony in Israel was connected with the “one God”, and the testimony in Christianity is connected with God as one, the true God.
JT That is a very important consideration. I think, that unity was implied in the Old Testament as well as in the New.
WB I thought that in the Old Testament it was one God in contrast to the many gods.
JT I think that is true, but then the fact of the one God is the basis of unity. Unity flows from it. There are not two or many gods, but one;and in Christianity, in the gospel, the truth presented is, that God is one, and the Mediator between God and man is one, the Man Christ Jesus. There is one God and one Mediator. This is the basis of unity.
RSS How would you indicate that?
JT If you take Christendom as it stands, with its sects and bodies, it is a denial that God is one, because if God is one, why are His people divided? There is no division in eternal life. The sphere of eternal life depends on unity.
AMcB That is Psalm 133.
JT Yes; but before you can have that you must have the true idea of the one true God in your soul. That lays the ground for unity.
BTF Is what you have been saying on the same line as what is presented in John 3; first, the kingdom is spoken of as an earthly thing, and then the Lord says, “If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?” Eternal life is developed as a heavenly thing.
JT Eternal life is morally out of heaven, as the second Man is out of heaven. It has come in by the second Man. It comes in by Man.
JLJ [p. 395] Eternal life is practically connected with the earth, and ends at the end of the kingdom.
JT That is, as to the term. The thing itself remains, but the term is relative; it has reference to idolatry and lawlessness. Life was lost by idolatry and lawlessness, and before you can have eternal life their opposite must be reinstated; in your soul you must know the true God and the true Man.
GFW I was thinking as to how Israel comes into eternal life under the covenant; it says further on, that it depended on having His statutes and keeping them.
WB-t Yesterday you were referring to the garden of Eden and the condition that was there. Death came in, and in contrast to death you have eternal life. I would not speak of a free black man, because now there are no slaves in this country. It is in contrast that such would be said.
JT Whilst slavery existed, the idea of a free man was in evidence. The term now has scarcely any force. But in the thought of eternal life we have very much more than Adam could have had; we have the full revelation of God. The God who is the “true God” is to us the Father, and may be known to us as such, but the point is that you have no other God but He, and you do not admit of another.
WCR Does not the end of Romans 5 develop it?
JT I think it does. “By the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life”. And then he goes on to develop it on the ground of obedience, “the obedience of one”. So that grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
WB The principle is the same both as to [p. 396] Israel and in Christianity, but the revelation is somewhat different.
JT The principle is exactly the same, but we have in Christianity more. The true God is reinstated in man’s heart and man abides in righteousness; idolatry and lawlessness are terminated in that man. John’s epistle is based on these things.
GFW That is the reason why John’s statements are so pungent.
WLP What is the force of eternal life?
JT It is not momentary as our life here is.
WLP The life we have is in the Son.
JT Quite so, and then also eternal life.
WLP Then eternal life must go on.
JT I think the term eternal is used in the way of contrast. It is also used in regard of Christ’s priesthood and in other connections. But it is a relative term, showing that there is nothing to follow after it.
RSS We read of the “everlasting kingdom”, and yet the kingdom will be delivered up.
R If there was not death, the word eternal life would not be used at all. It would not be necessary.
JT That is it. Life here is so brief that it is easy to understand the contrast in the term eternal life. No one felt it more than the Jew; for instance, Hezekiah. He clung to life; he had an addition of fifteen years added to his life; but when you come to the thought of eternal life how grand that is! The Jews sought it, and looked for it, and the Lord says, “ye will not come to me, that ye might have life”.
EHT Is your thought that the term eternal life is only used as things are now?
JT As long as death exists. When death has disappeared, the force of the term ceases, though the thing itself may remain, and will remain.
AFM Will you give us in a simple way how [p. 397] We are brought into eternal life and where the sphere of eternal life is?
JT The first great thought is the presentation of the true God; that is, God is presented to you in the gospel. Then the next thing is that your heart and conscience are affected by the light of God revealed in the death of Christ. The full revelation of God rightly received leads to the production of a true man. Now you are formed in righteousness and you come to apprehend what Jesus was. If we abide in Him we walk even as He walked. He is the true Man, so that you have brought together in that way in your soul the two realities. God has His place in your soul as the true God, and man is before Him in you as formed after Christ. Thus in you there is practically the abolition of idolatry and lawlessness.
AFM Then is there a sphere? With Israel there will be a sphere of enjoyment which will be the land. Is there a sphere in which we enjoy eternal life?
JT I think so. Psalm 133 is very helpful. God has brought to pass a sphere for man. I think it was brought to pass before men were invited to it. God had brought in the testimony to His Son in the presence of life manifestly here in the circle of the saints. That circle existed before the proclamation of the gospel went out. The Lord says in John 12 that the Father’s commandment is life eternal. Israel rejected Him as to all that He did and said, but the Father’s commandment held good. If they did not account themselves worthy of everlasting life the Gentiles are regarded as worthy of it.
WLP How did the circle exist before the proclamation of the gospel?
JT In the one hundred and twenty in Acts 1. They were all constituted true men by the ministry of Christ. The Spirit came down to these men, so [p. 398] that in Acts 1 you have the true God in evidence. God had His rightful place there. They spoke of the wonderful works of God. He had His full place in their hearts and they were all righteous, and the effect of that was that they loved one another.
AAT Would you distinguish between eternal life and sonship?
JT Sonship, as has often been said, goes beyond eternal life; the fulness of the privilege of sonship leads us into heavenly places. They should not be confused. They are on parallel lines, to a certain extent; but sonship goes further. God is leading many sons to glory.
BTF Where do we see a company in the present dispensation in the good of eternal life?
JT In Acts 2.
BTF In what is described in 1 Corinthians 15 we are completely beyond death?
JT Death is swallowed up in victory. Resurrection takes place necessarily on earth. Translation is stated afterwards.
BTF In the early part of 1 Corinthians 15 we have: “Now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept”. Then at the end of the chapter we get the rest of the company and God’s vindication. Does that fit in with the thought you have been bringing before us?
JT I think so. Only there it is a question of the power of God over death. There is a day coming when He will destroy the veil that covers the nations and swallow up death in victory.
GH Do you connect eternal life with the kingdom, and sonship with the house?
JT I am certain that sonship is connected with the house. The son abides in the house for ever, Eternal life is definitely called “the blessing”, and is greater than the kingdom, but the enjoyment of it is dependent on the kingdom. The kingdom is [p. 399] essential to it, but it is something more definite as “blessing” than the kingdom.
RSS It was in view before the kingdom.
JT The kingdom came in as a necessity, so as to secure it.
WB-t The thought of eternal life searches us tremendously. For instance, there is Adam in the garden of Eden. He had the true God, but the true God and His arrangements were not sufficient for Adam. He was not of the true man. If we take the place of being true men the next question that comes up is that of idolatry. We must refuse it. The true God must have His place with us.
JT The effect of the gospel when rightly received is to give God His place in your heart; and that leads to unity, because God is one; and the gift of the Spirit in you is the same as in me, and we have received the Spirit from the God who is revealed to us in the gospel as the one God, so that the Holy Spirit in us leads to unity, and thus there is the circle in which righteousness is maintained. It is an immense thing in the presence of sin to have a circle where the rights of God are fully maintained.
EHT Is that the sphere?
JT Yes.
WB-t And all that stands in contrast with idolatry?
JT Yes, in contrast to the idolatrous world without.
GFW I think we have sometimes thought that what is commonly called salvation and eternal life are the same, but now I think that eternal life in a certain sense is subjective, a sphere that we are brought into the enjoyment of by the Spirit; that is not the same thing as salvation.
JT Salvation is from the enemy: “that we might be saved from our enemies”. The kingdom secures that for you. I think baptism comes in in [p. 400] connection with that. You recognise the Lord, and as recognising Him you come into the benefit of the power that He wields which secures salvation to you. But then there is the pressure of death on man; eternal life is brought in in contrast to that.
GFW Does not the way you have been speaking of it make it rather subjective?
JT It is a question of knowledge. “This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”.
GFW It is not quickening?
JT Quickening is essential. You need the actual work of the Spirit in you. But the Lord speaks of eternal life as knowledge. “To know thee”. He says to the Father, “As thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal”. That is how He administers the authority that the Father has given to Him. Then He says, “And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. Now as far as I see the statement corresponds in a sense with what Israel will have when the covenant is fully effectuated in them.
RSS I think what is contained in 1 John 3 is very striking in this connection, because the epistle of John shows how we come into eternal life. “For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil”. That refers to the garden of Eden and what you have been speaking of as lawlessness, and then Cain is introduced, who hates his brother, so that it would indicate, I should think, that what is characteristic of eternal life is the reverse, obedience and affection.
JT That is very good. I think the opening of John’s first epistle is calculated to bring to the attention of the saints what Christ was as Man with the Father here on earth. “That which was from [p. 401] the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (for the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)”. And then he closes by saying, “That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ”, and he adds, “And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full”. I believe, that what the apostle had in his mind was to bring to the attention of the saints the true Man as set forth in Christ, so that there should be the reproduction of that Man in them, and as that was reproduced you have eternal life practically.
RSS In what does it consist practically? In righteousness and in affection and in joy?
JT Yes. I think joy is there to the full, if God has His place in the heart. See what the Lord says in Psalm 16, “I have set the Lord always before me”. “Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god”. He had God always before Him, and I think the apostle laboured to bring to pass, that that order of Man should reappear in the saints.
RSS Quite so. But we have been accustomed to speak and think of eternal life as a life of relationship.
JT I do not like to appear to deny what may be true, but if anything is asserted, I would ask what scripture is it based upon? I am not denying that relationship is involved in it, but what I would like is, that we should get hold of it as it is in the setting of Scripture, so that there might be practical deliverance from the spirit of idolatry and lawlessness. I am not denying that there is relationship in it, because “we know that we have passed from death [p. 402] unto life, because we love the brethren”. That is the proof of it, but then that in principle was also demanded in the law; “thou shalt love .. thy neighbour as thyself”.
BTF Is your thought that before there could be the enjoyment of the relationship there must be the knowledge in your heart of the true God and the true Man?
J.T. Quite so!
AFM I think what has been brought before us in this connection is not only helpful but it has a very practical turn, because it will make us search ourselves as to how far we are in relation to the true God and the true Man in our daily lives; and such an exercise is beneficial to us all.
JT That the Christian’s place is heaven is very clear in Scripture; it is the pleasure of God’s love that we should have this place. But it was due to God morally that His thought as to the earth and men on it should be established first. The question of righteousness and life have reference to the earth. Christ established the title for man to live on earth and in heaven.
BTF I thought we never would be entitled to live on earth, but that our justification would be in the day of display.
JT But the testimony of title to live is already in the saints here. Who is entitled to live? He who recognises the true God and who works righteousness. Of course, title to live as to us could only be established by Christ’s death, but I refer to what corresponds to this in us.
JF In regard to the people of God, their life had been dependent on what was conditional.
JT The practical enjoyment of it did, but God brings in the testimony. What was it? It was this, that there was a circle of people that recognised Him [p. 403] as the true God, and who followed righteousness. It was a practical testimony under the eyes of men, and we want to see to it that we are in that. We must not confound it with sonship and the heavenly position.
WB-t The Lord Himself calls attention to the fact that all the law and the prophets hung on the first two commandments; “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind”, and “thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself”. The Lord did that; He was the true Man.
JT Do you think for a moment God is going to let the testimony of the law and the prophets fall to the ground? It must be maintained. The Lord effected this by His death. He made it possible for God to introduce His testimony; that is, to bring in a company that recognised Him as the true God, and at the same time were true themselves; their sins were remitted and they accomplished righteousness. Instead of the law being written in their hearts, they had the Holy Spirit. Israel will not have that, but we have the Spirit, and we are the epistle of Christ. If we are the epistle of Christ, there must be the reproduction of the true Man in the saints.
AFM Is that somewhat parallel with the end of John 5, where you are brought to the “witness”?
JT I think so. “This is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life”. I suppose it refers to what has been effected in the saints in this world.
JLJ What is the true application of 1 John 3: “We know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him”?
JT The lawless man has not got it. Cain was the lawless man typically; he represents the lawless family, whereas Abel represents the law-abiding family, and we come into that in Christ.
[p. 404] R Does not 1 John 5: 13 answer the question: “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God?”
JT That was the object of the writing of the epistle, to call attention to the subjective evidence of the presence of eternal life; so that the Christian might know by this evidence that he has eternal life. In the gospel of John the object of these things being written is said to be that “ye may believe”. You cannot have anything without believing; that is the primary necessity, and hence John in his gospel makes a great deal of believing in the Son — in the Person. “These are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name”.
RSS The epistle was written that we might “know” that we have it.
JT “Who believe on the name of the Son of God”. The gospel presents life in His name to faith, but the epistle shows that as believing on that name you have it. The epistle dwells on the subjective proofs of the possession of eternal life.
AFM When you speak of believing that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God would you speak of it as elementary faith or advanced faith, if we may so speak?
JT I think it is advanced faith. It is what the saints needed when John wrote; when the official order of things had given way. His thought was to establish the saints in the light of the Son of God as the immutable foundation on which eternal life rests.