LIFE OUT OF DEATH
LIFE OUT OF DEATH
JT The chapters from 13 to 24, treat of God’s judgment on the nations, ending with His judgment of the high ones on high and kings here on the earth. God clears the whole scene to make room for Christ to reign. Then we saw how in succeeding chapters God intervenes for the people, so that they are brought to Zion in everlasting joy and gladness in accord with what He is Himself: “The ransomed of the Lord shall return and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away;” chapter 35: 10. I think, that from chapter 40 God is taking up the controversy as to idolatry, and from this chapter to the end the leading thought is Jehovah’s servant. Jerusalem is to be comforted, and a way is to be made for the Lord. What is emphasised is that all flesh is grass, even flesh that may be in outward relationship to God. It is all grass. But before we get to that I think a very great deal lies in the chapters that precede, beginning with chapter 36.
I was saying that the section which treats of the Assyrian invasion and Hezekiah introduces a line of thought that is most important, namely, that if man is to be before God, it is on the principle of life from the dead. I think we have to look at the truth in this way, that God acts for Himself in the accomplishment of His counsels, and, that then He acts in love on our behalf, so that the saints are brought into line with His counsels; and then we have the principle on which man is to live with God. It introduces a subject of immense importance and of very wide bearing; that is, the order of man that is to live before God. I think that in Hezekiah’s [p. 448] sickness and recovery there is an allusion to the death and resurrection of Christ; and in connection with this the ground on which life is secured. Hezekiah’s life is given to him in answer to prayer.
RSS The last fifteen years of his life?
JT Yes. In the Lord’s case it was life for ever and ever, Psalm 21: 4, but it was on the principle of asking.
AFM Would you divide the book of Isaiah into two parts?
JT It is divided into several parts, but in the main it is divided into two parts, the first running on to chapter 39 and the second beginning with chapter 40; but then it is also sub-divided.
AFM I was wondering if the two thoughts, the Son and the Servant, would cover it.
JT I think the first is, “unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given”, whereas the second is, “Behold my servant whom I uphold”; that is, the second brings out what Christ was as a servant here. He really supersedes Israel, Israel having failed in God’s service. The end of chapter 40 is this; “I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no counsellor, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word. Behold, they are all vanity: their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion”. I think it shows the necessity for Christ.
AFM As superseding Israel?
JT Yes. I think this suggests what is of immense importance to us to understand, that is, on what principle man is to live before God. The kind of man to live before God was first demonstrated in Christ here. It was first set forth in Christ. It is a matter of the utmost importance that we should understand what Christ was for God here. All things are necessarily founded on that; what came out personally in [p. 449] the Lord.
WB Do you connect the prayer of Hezekiah with that?
JT Yes, it indicates, in a way, the kind of man that is to live; and when you apply it to Christ you see the wide bearing of it.
BTF Do you refer to what Christ was as man?
JT Yes. He was heard because of His piety; Hebrews 5:7. As a divine Person He had of course life in Himself; He had power to quicken. But all that God had sought in man was found in Christ, and in that way He established a title to live here.
RSS You said, referring to Hezekiah’s prayer, life according to God was on the principle of asking. Will you open that up a little? I do not quite understand your thought. I know that in Psalm 21 it is said of Christ, “he asked life of thee, thou givest it him, length of days for ever and ever”.
JT Life is held from God on that principle, but then Christ proved His title to it. I think that the Lord established here, in virtue of what He was as Man, a title to live, and on that ground He asked for life.
RSS You mean that so far as we are concerned our life is forfeited?
JT Yes, the testimony of the prophet Isaiah is that those who attacked Hezekiah all died under the judgment of God; see chapter 37: 36 - 38, but then, Hezekiah had to die also.
Ques And is it because of what Christ was as Man as wholly pleasing to God that He had title to live?
JT He took man’s place and established a title as Man here to live.
PHP As to Hezekiah, do you refer to verse 3 of chapter 38?
JT We get the idea there, Hezekiah asked God for life because he had walked before God “in truth and with a perfect heart”, and he received it. In Christ’s case it is not the sun dial being put back, it is a totally new beginning, but Hezekiah was allowed to live for fifteen years more on that principle.
Ques What is the significance of the sun going back?
JT I think it signifies that there was no new departure or development; it was the continuance of the old thing; but with regard to Christ it is the opening up of an entirely new order of things in resurrection.
AFM Here it is “ten degrees backwards”. The Lord rose on the eighth day; it was a new beginning.
JT Yes, but the eighth day is really the first day.
JS So with Hezekiah, it was really his responsibility lengthened.
JT Yes, but with Christ it was an entirely new beginning on the first day of the week.
PHP Would you say Hezekiah was dead in principle?
JT His life was forfeited, but of course you cannot refer that to Christ; all you can say as to the type is, that there was a man asking for life on account of his righteous walk, and he received it. There was no liability for Christ to die. He had title to live here as man in flesh and blood.
BTF What is your point in bringing before us the Lord’s title to live?
JT To show the kind of man that He was.
Rem “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God”.
JT Christ is our life, but you must have a title to live; Christ established it for Himself by living here absolutely for God, and established it for you [p. 451] by dying.
BTF Open out about the title to live; the point before me is that scripture — “Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die it bringeth forth much fruit”, John 12.
JT The point there is to bring in others of His own order. It is not a question of living there. The corn of wheat abides alone if it does not die. You get in the end of Isaiah 41, “there was no man”, but in chapter 42 you get, “my servant whom I uphold, mine elect in whom my soul delighteth”.
JS So that He established a title to live in the years of His private life here?
JT And when He appears in public life He is praying and God puts His Spirit on Him; Luke 3: 21,22.
AFM I suppose what we learn in the writing of Hezekiah is that everything is to be on the principle of life out of death. It is “the living” who praise God.
JT I think the writing indicates how man is to be with God as made to live, He praises God. “The living, he shall praise thee as I do this day”, and then he goes on to speak of singing to stringed instruments. All that indicates how man is to be before God.
WLP Christ having established His title to live, is it on that ground that His death becomes available for us?
JT He took up our responsibility on the cross, and by dying He has established a title for us to live.
JS There was a moral necessity for Him to establish a title to live. All that God had sought in man must be answered to in Christ.
BTF Did you say that must be true before He could establish things for others?
JT In His life He shows Himself qualified to take up the vicarious [p. 452] work.
CM The title to live on account of piety could only be applied to Christ personally, and we come into the good of it by what Christ did vicariously.
JT Exactly; I think the epistle to the Romans is the adjustment of all that pertains to the earth, and it is due to God that it should be adjusted before relationship and heavenly position are taken up, so that the two great fundamental Christian epistles are Romans and Ephesians. In the epistle to the Romans the questions of righteousness and life are solved before relationship is touched on in regard to us; righteousness is solved in chapters 3 and 4, and life is solved in chapters 5 and 6; chapter 8 develops sonship. Sonship being introduced, the basis is laid for the heavenly side, for Ephesians.
RSS Has the latter part of Romans any special reference to what you were saying just now?
JT Chapters 9, 10 and 11 show how the testimony as to Israel is adjusted. The promises made to the fathers and God’s purpose as to the nation are adjusted.
RSS Adjusted in regard to God’s dealings in the first part of the epistle. So that the epistle to the Romans is God vindicating Himself and then justifying men; that He may be “just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus”; and even in chapters 9, 10 and 11 the same is true.
JT Chapters 9, 10 and 11 show how God is faithful; so that if you understand Romans your soul is perfectly clear as to everything that exists on the earth; and you have, therefore, deliverance in regard to things here; but then the heavenly side is to be entered on: the spirit of sonship is a link between the earthly and the heavenly. Romans 8 shows how the saints are brought into accord with the ark of the covenant. The ark of the covenant was that in which the law was kept and cherished. The righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in [p. 453] those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
ARS Do I understand aright, that what we are setting out is this, that all flesh is as grass, but that here is God’s Man who proved His title to live, and if we want to get life we must get it in connection with Him?
JT What we have been saying is rather connected with Hezekiah. I think, that Hezekiah’s case is brought in typically to show how man is to live before God, and the kind of man that is to live. With Hezekiah the thought is not the servant, but “the living ... . he shall praise thee”; a man living to God.
ARS Hezekiah passed through death in his soul, and then the Lord gave him life.
JT He got life because he asked for it in regard to what he had been. Hezekiah had no title to live, but it is the figure we have here. It was in love to his soul that God came in and then Hezekiah says, “The living, the living, he shall praise thee”. Hezekiah has the right thought. As made to live, man is for God. When you come to the next section beginning with chapter 40, it is a question of the Servant.
AS What is necessary in order to praise God?
JT A person must live to be able to worship God. Death is removed from the spirit. Your spirit is free. The pressure of death is gone, and more than that, you are quickened in your affections. Hezekiah recognises the love of God, and then he speaks of praising God.
RSS It would seem that he desired not to die because in death he could not praise God.
JT He says that God in love to his soul delivered him, and he answers to that. He responds to it because he praises God.
ARS When he is delivered from death and all [p. 454] its fear In 2 Corinthians 5 the apostle is so in the apprehension of God that were he free from all care he would be entirely for God. He says further, that they which live should not live to themselves, but unto Him who died for them and rose again, and he also says that he did not know anyone after the flesh. Living to God is outside of all ordinary natural relationships. Hence the apostle says he did not know even Christ after the flesh. He was so in the life of Christ that he desired to know only the relationships formed outside of death. Then, further, “if any man be in Christ ... old things are passed away; behold all things are become new”. I think that is what you get in Christianity.
RSS Paul said, “whether we be beside ourselves it is to God, or whether we be sober it is for your cause”. What do you say in that connection?
JT That was how Paul lived. If he were free from ordinary responsibility in this world it would be for God; if he had to return to responsibility it was for the saints; and then I think he shows how that was reached.
RSS That was all that Paul really had before him. God and the saints.
JT What a point to reach, where old things are passed away!
WBr What about the thought of life being communicated to you?
JT Life is only communicated in the sense that the Spirit is given to you.
ARS How do we get title to live?
JT It is by faith. A believer has title, but it is an entirely different thing to take up your title and enjoy the life. I think eternal life has reference to what you are with God. Your spirit is relieved of death and you are quickened in your affections and in your mind, so that God is before you. The [p. 455] question of how a man is to be with God comes in before his place in the testimony.
Ques On what ground will Israel be in the future?
JT I think they will be on the same ground as we as regards life. The Lord will have removed the pressure of death off their spirits. He will swallow up death in victory and the law will be written in their minds and in their hearts.
RSS Hezekiah said, “What is the sign that. I shall go up to the house of the Lord?”
JT Going up to the house of the Lord is the result of being made to live; but the house involves relationship formed.
WLP You could not know life without understanding the house of the Lord could you?
JT The two are very intimately connected. As to God’s house the greatest thought is, what is to be for God there?
B “They that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee”.
JT You may depend upon it that what is set forth here in Hezekiah is of great importance to us as testimony as indicating in type the kind of man who is to live before God. You see how he appreciates the love of God and how he answers to it. It is remarkable how much is said in the Old Testament about singing.
ANW It is largely connected with redemption or salvation.
JT I think a song is generally a celebration of a divine intervention. God intervenes for you in some way, and you celebrate that. A psalm is rather the expression of experiences.
RSS Where does a spiritual song come in?
JT A spiritual song is the only kind of song that will be acceptable to God. It is free from sentimentality and materialism. A hymn, I think,
[p. 456] has God more especially as the object before us. I think that is borne out by the fact that the Lord joined in one.
In this section beginning with chapter 40, the question of idolatry is very largely in view. The prophet begins by speaking of comfort. “Comfort ye my people”. I suppose, that that, in a way, is the end to be reached, but we have to see how it is reached. It is the announcement of glad tidings to Jerusalem, but it is as yet only anticipatory; it is what is in God’s heart for them. This chapter is the beginning of a new section, and these two verses indicate what it is in the mind of God to bring about. Jerusalem is to be comforted and that can only be brought about by room being made for Christ.
WBr Is it a question here of removing the idolatry?
JT That is the question that had to be raised with the people; God was coming in and a way was to be made for Him. Then a new formative power was there, namely, “the word of the Lord”; verse 8. It is referred to in the New Testament, and is spoken of as that by which we are begotten again; 1 Peter 1:21,22. The word of God involves the introduction of a new generation. The word Servant is not introduced here; it is what God does. Of course, it is done through Christ, but it is Jehovah acting. A new principle is brought in here, the word of God. You have the means by which God brings in a new generation. All flesh is as grass, “but the word of our God abides for ever”.
CM In what way is the word expressed?
JT “This is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you”.
CM Would it be right to say that God expressed Himself in that way.
JT Yes, the revelation of God brings in a new [p. 457] generation. John the baptist did not produce anything. The gospel is that which produces the new generation. The negative testimony is to be accepted. It might be assumed that some flesh is better, but the emphasis is on all flesh. But a new generation is brought in by the word.
AFM I suppose John was practically bringing that out when he spoke to the Pharisees in his preaching; he called them a generation of vipers.
WBr What has the Spirit of God in view in this chapter?
JT I think the Spirit now has the new generation in view, and Christ is the pattern of that. It is very interesting to see how comfort is brought in. The testimony to Jerusalem is “Comfort ye”. The first epistle to the Corinthians teaches that all flesh is as grass; the second brings in comfort. Comfort supposes that there has been the judgment of the flesh in us; then God comforts us.
BTP Is idolatry referred to?
JT That is a question that God has to raise with each of us. There are many questions that God has to raise with us, but He has to settle the matter of idolatry with us before comfort can be introduced. It is a question of what your motives are, what you have before you. So you will find that in this chapter God emphasises what He is — His greatness.
RSS What answers to idolatry at the present time, and especially for Christians?
JT Idolatry is anything that would govern the affections. Idolatry is anything in us here that disputes God’s title to us; and God is sure to enter into controversy with us if there is anything of this kind. The point here is not what Christ was exactly, but what God is.
BTF If you come under the power of something, does that become an [p. 458] idol?
JT Yes, anything that disputes God’s title to your affections is an idol, and hence it is the knowledge of God in the heart that overthrows idolatry.
RSS We are to be influenced by God only.
Rem Christ is said to be the true God, and then comes the exhortation, “Little children, keep yourselves from idols”. To be kept from idols must be a continual exercise with believers.
JT It is remarkable how much you find about idolatry in this section of Isaiah.