THE KINGDOM AS CONNECTED WITH THE CHURCH
[p. 332] THE KINGDOM AS CONNECTED WITH THE CHURCH
Reading, Revised by F.E.R.
1 Corinthians 12 Might I ask why you make so much of the assembly?
FER What else is there to make much of?
RSS I have heard the remark made that, perhaps, too much was made of the assembly, and not enough of Christ.
FER If you make much of the assembly you make much of Christ. The assembly is Christ here. If the assembly means anything it means that. The fault of people is in not making enough of the assembly.
GR I suppose it is through not seeing what the assembly is.
FER Exactly. They do not see the divine mind in the assembly. I think that kind of ignorance covers a great deal; for if saints saw more of the place of the assembly here, and its true character, it would test their ways.
JSA The real point is to understand what the assembly is in the mind of God.
FER I think so. Scripture makes a great deal of the assembly.
Ques You were speaking before the reading of the assembly in three connections; will you repeat those to us?
FER In its simplest aspect the assembly is connected with the kingdom. Then a little further on it is connected with reconciliation, that is seen in Colossians; and then in its own proper character it is connected with eternal life.
JT Where is the connection with the kingdom found?
FER [p. 333] I think this comes out in the Corinthians. You get there the elements of the kingdom and hence you get the assembly.
WHC Is it that the Corinthians were lacking in subjection to the Lord’s authority?
FER I think evil was allowed, and the consequence is that the lordship of Christ is pressed a good bit. Some had not the knowledge of God, and therefore in Corinthians the Lord is in a way distant. He holds Himself in that way, not coming out as Head. If you talk much about Christ as Lord, you hold Him at a distance.
GR There is no association with Him as Lord.
FER No; association with Him is on other ground. But if the assembly is going on with things offensive to the Lord, He holds Himself at a distance.
RSS How else would you talk about Him?
FER I would speak of Him as Head, and that is another matter. As Lord He is on the side of God, but as Head He is on our side.
RSS But you would always address Him as Lord.
FER The mode of addressing proves nothing, the point is the light in which He is apprehended.
GR While in intercourse with one another we would speak of Him as Lord, He is known in the heart in another way.
FER When He was here on earth the apostles recognised Him as Lord, but they had at the same time a sense that He was one with them. Sarah called Abraham lord, and yet he was not lord to her, it is a title of respect; Abraham was head to Sarah. The husband is not the lord to the wife; she might call him lord as a term of respect; it is a poor husband who is lord to his wife.
GR Is that where you bring in the thought of kingdom? That is the authority of God established in [p. 334] the soul?
FER I think so. As far as I understand it, the institution of the kingdom of necessity brings in the assembly.
Ques You said we had the elements of the assembly. What are they?
FER They are, to begin with, the Spirit in this chapter. In the next chapter it is love, which is the heart of the assembly; and in chapter 14 the important point is the mind. People sometimes think that in the assembly you are going to get on without mind. They have an idea akin to Quakerism, speaking under direct influence of the Spirit. They do not see the place of mind in the assembly; the Spirit of God makes a great deal of mind.
WM It is “five words with the understanding”.
FER Yes, with the mind. Mind is that faculty by which I can put myself in intelligent communication with others. I myself enter into a thing by the mind, and having entered into it I can communicate my thoughts intelligently to others, and that is what the apostle insists upon in chapter 14.
RSS Would you connect that scripture with “Be renewed in the spirit of your mind”?
FER Yes; but it is the mind.
JT So that “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets”.
GR You would say it is not only that I understand myself what I am saying in the assembly, but I speak so that others can understand it.
FER Just so.
Rem A good many have an idea that the mind belongs to the first man.
FER The natural mind belongs to the first man.
JT That is why the renewal is necessary.
FER It is not the renewal of the mind, but of the spirit of the mind.
JSA God has given to us the spirit of love and of power and [p. 335] of a sound mind.
WHC If all have not a mind of that character?
FER I would say it is likely they are not qualified to take part in the assembly.
WM Even praying and singing come in in that way.
FER The mind is the vehicle, else you may as well have a Quakers’ meeting.
WHC But is it necessary to possess a mind in order to receive the truth?
FER Yes; no one receives the truth except through the mind. A person might have been converted through a dream, but he does not receive the truth through a dream.
Ques Has not the mind a large place in the epistle to the Philippians, it speaks there, “If in anything ye be otherwise minded”.
FER There is more the sense of purpose in that expression; if ye are otherwise purposed, it is not exactly that which we are speaking of.
JT What remark did you make in regard to this chapter? What is the point in chapter 12?
FER The point in chapter 12 is the one Spirit, and what depends on the Spirit. The Spirit can only bring Christ into the scene from which He has been rejected. It is only Christ who can be in the eye of God down here. You have to take the fact into account that Christ has been here; and hence it is you cannot have anything but Christ under the eye of God down here. Till Christ came God did in a sense bear with other things, but, Christ having come, you must admit that nothing inferior to Christ will do for God. Hence if the Spirit comes in the name of Christ, He comes to bring Christ in. Therefore it is, “So also is the Christ”.
RSS Where it says, “So also is the Christ”, that is not Christ personally?
FER No, it is characteristic; Christ in the saints [p. 336] here.
WM The principle that God never gives up anything is true of all that God brings in.
FER God never could; it would practically admit that He had been defeated by man and Satan. The temple was here and it continues; no longer a material temple; and so in regard to the Christ. Christ has been under the eye of God here, and nothing can set Christ aside; the Holy Spirit has come to maintain Christ here. That is where the church comes in, and the great importance of the church.
Ques Is that what is referred to in Colossians 1 as the mystery? Christ in you the hope of glory.
FER Quite so; it is the only thing the Holy Spirit will maintain here.
WM Because Christ was under the eye of God here thirty-three years, and He will not give it up.
FER No; so when the Spirit leaves the world, and the house of God is judged, it is in view of bringing Christ again in. It is referred to in the first of Hebrews, “when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world”.
JP Does not the connection between the kingdom and the assembly lie in the Spirit?
FER Precisely. The Spirit came to give effect to the kingdom; but in the fact of the Spirit’s presence the one body is formed, and the only thing the Spirit .will maintain here is Christ, for Christ is the truth, and the Spirit is the Spirit of truth.
JT I see that principle in the first part of this chapter. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Spirit”.
FER Quite so. He came here to effectuate the kingdom.
WM Would you say those three things take place simultaneously, yet, in the order of apprehension, we begin with the kingdom?
FER Yes. I was speaking of things in [p. 337] the mind of God.
Ques Is the word ‘kingdom’ the rule of Christ?
FER It means the moral sway of God. It is important to look at all things morally rather than dispensationally. Dispensationally they are future, morally they are present.
RSS Is the body a necessary consequence on the coming of the Spirit into the world?
FER Yes. I think the Lord brings that out, “He continues with you and shall be in you”. If He is in us He must make one body.
RSS Is the house a necessity also?
FER Yes, because the Spirit is not incarnate, if He is in us He must make one body.
RSS And the kingdom is a necessity of His coming?
FER I think the kingdom was established in Christ being exalted to the right hand of God; but the kingdom was hardly effectuated upon earth till the Holy Spirit came.
JP Hence the statement, It is “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit”.
WM And yet the king was crowned with glory and honour.
FER That was one step, and the Holy Spirit was sent down to effectuate the kingdom here.
Rem The kingdom is associated with the Person of Christ.
JT It seems that the presence of the Spirit here is an important feature in connection with the kingdom.
FER I think the Spirit is connected with the kingdom all through the Acts of the apostles. The subject of the apostles was Christ exalted, and the Holy Spirit present here.
WM What did you mean last night by saying that the kingdom was the great moral security for man?
FER In the kingdom you get salvation from the authority of evil.
JSA [p. 338] A man receives the kingdom individually, but when in the kingdom the Holy Spirit puts him in his place in the house of God and the body of Christ.
FER Of necessity he comes into the dwelling-place of the Spirit, and is baptised into the body of Christ at the outset; all that is consequent on the presence of the Spirit.
WM Is that why in this epistle the apostle takes up the Corinthians in spite of their state, and says that they are the body of Christ?
FER Yes, and that “Your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost”, so also in this chapter, “Ye are Christ’s body”; you have that place.
RSS What is the difference in thought between the temple and the house?
FER I think the house refers to profession, the temple is more local. The temple and the body are spoken of a church locally; the house is never so spoken of.
WHC So it is baptism into the house?
FER Yes.
Ques What do you mean by locally?
FER I mean it is never stated to any particular assembly, ‘Ye are the house of God’. So far as I know, the house of God is spoken of in a general way, like in 1 Timothy. It is spoken of in epistles like those to the Hebrews and to Timothy, but you do not find the apostle telling any particular assembly, ‘Ye are the house of God’, that I know of.
P What connection have chapters 10 and 11 with this?
FER I think chapter 10 is simple, the point is fellowship. If you do not maintain fellowship you are not fit for the assembly. If you are not separate from what is contrary to Christ you are not fit for the presence of Christ; that is chapter 10. Then in chapter 11 it is the presence of Christ, in connection [p. 339] with the Supper. Then chapter 12 brings in the assembly in the unity of the Spirit, that is, “by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body”. Then chapter 13 brings in the heart of the assembly, and chapter 14 the mind. We have thus the proper elements of the assembly. No one can come happily to the Supper if not separate from what is unsuitable to Christ; that is the obligation of fellowship. For instance, we are in fellowship, and if there is anybody with us going on with what is unsuitable to Christ, we have to deal with that person; the person does not regard the obligation of fellowship. It is in maintaining the obligations of fellowship that we are really fit to come into the assembly, and the first point in assembly is the place of Christ, and He gets His place through the Spirit. Then we get our place as baptised by one Spirit into one body.
JP It is not only that these things are stated to the Corinthians, but they are illustrated in the condition of the Corinthians.
FER With the exception of chapters 13 and 14.
JP Yes, that is the picture hung on the wall.
FER He does say in chapter 12, “ye are the body of Christ and members in particular”, but chapter 13 is to my mind a disappointing picture, for I see how distant it is.
JT How do you mean distant?
FER Distant from them, and I am afraid very often distant from us. Do you think there is love amongst us? Take what is going on among those with whom we have been once in fellowship; do you think there is love?
JT No, I do not think there is a bit.
FER I think there is something very different from love.
WHC Biting and devouring one another.
FER Pretty much that; talking and vituperating,
[p. 340] and readily taking up any expression that can be made an occasion of attack, and putting the worst application on it. Is that love?
R Do you connect fellowship with the Lord’s table?
FER Yes; the Lord’s table is fellowship; that is the force of it.
R A sister asked me some time ago if we thought we were the only people at the Lord’s table.
FER The fact is I think of myself, I have not to begin at you.
RSS That is, in that connection?
FER Yes.
JT You would not object to caring for the saints; you do not mean that?
FER Well, I have come over to America to do the best I can in that way.
WHC But you can only speak positively for yourself in that sense, that you are at the Lord’s table.
FER I object to any kind of pretension. Our path is a good deal individual, but I am glad to go on with you if you are going on in the truth, or with anybody else.
Ques Then you would say the place is to be found individually?
FER What is to be found is the truth. What everybody ought to be concerned about is the truth. I would rather have the truth than the place, because if you find the one you find the other.
JT The whole thing in that connection is to a large extent moral. In Timothy, for instance, the individual is first cleared, and then he follows “righteousness, faith, charity, peace with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart”.
FER Yes, he purges himself. See how the apostle speaks to Timothy, “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them, for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself” — you have to look after saving thyself — “and them that hear thee”. If a man does not save himself he will not save others.
WM You mean by saving yourself, that one gets disentangled from everything that hinders here?
FER I think the apostle speaks in view of what was coming into the church.
JSA And what you are has a greater effect on people than what you say.
FER I have no doubt whatever that Mr. Darby’s influence was as much owing to what he was, as to what he said. I have said that nothing affected me so much in Mr. Darby as his prayers, because by them I felt what he was. I was greatly affected by his doctrine, but also by the man.
RSS I suppose what a man really is comes out when he gets into God’s presence.
FER I think so.
JT In Timothy, the apostle refers to what he had been: “Thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life”, etc.
WM Did you say once that the truth in this chapter checks clericalism?
FER I think that is why it is brought in; there can be no sort of pre-eminence in the body.
WM So that the head is not the pre-eminent member.
FER Such an idea is impossible.
Rem In this chapter the headship of Christ is not brought in.
FER No, I do not think so. Christ is only brought into the chapter as in the saints; and that subjectively by the Spirit. “For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one body”, and that body is Christ’s body.
Rem In the natural body you may get along without some members, but not without the head.
FER I question if you would get along without [p. 342] the members in the natural body. I would not like to be without a leg.
JT I think the idea of the headship of Christ is misunderstood, and that the head of the natural body is taken to be representative of Christ, while as a matter of fact the thought here is of the head as one of the members, each dependent on the other.
FER Christ is, so to say, the mind or spirit of the body. The body is the vehicle in which the mind is expressed. The Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit does not give character to the body, He gives the body the character of Christ. My mind expresses itself in my body. My hand does not lift itself without my mind, nor does a limb move without the mind. The mind gives character to every member of the body, and that is what Christ is to His body, it is that in which He is expressed.
WHC So that if the hand move without the mind, there is a defect in the mind.
FER It is paralysis.
JP Then in this chapter you would not expect to find the head of the body; the chapter presents what we are.
FER Chapter 11 brings Christ in.
Ques You say the body is the expression of Christ here by the Holy Spirit. Is it the vessel of expression?
FER I think the body is the expression of Christ, that is, His mind comes out in the body.
WM Would the thought be that Christ, having been here in a body once, God has never given up His thought, but has Him here in His body still?
FER Quite so; even the gifts are the expression of Christ in the church. What He did here upon earth is now distributed; what comes out in the body is what Christ Himself did here upon earth. If you speak of the gifts of healing, or of the word of wisdom, or the word of knowledge; of the apostle, the evangelist,
[p. 343] the pastor, and the teacher, all came out in Christ. He was the evangelist, and the pastor, and teacher, and the apostle; now these qualities are distributed by the Holy Spirit in the church.
WM So the gifts are simply impressions of Christ.
FER They are impressions and expressions. They are an expression of Christ by the distribution of the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit distributes to every man severally as He will.
WHC In the way in which each one knows the Lord Himself.
FER Gift is first an impression, and in its operation it is an expression.
Ques In the close of chapter 2, it says, “we have the mind of Christ”. Is this true in all believers, or is it only apostolic?
FER I think it is true in all believers properly; it is the spiritual man who has the mind of Christ.
RSS What is the difference between the way the gifts are spoken of in this chapter and in Ephesians?
FER They are spoken of here as in the way of testimony. They have the character of signs, they have not that character in Ephesians; the miracles of Christ had that character, in connection with the kingdom.
RSS With reference rather to that which was without?
FER Yes; there was the testimony to the glory of Christ. The Holy Spirit came as witness to the exaltation of Christ, and the gifts were evidence of His presence. You get proof of that in Acts 3, in the lame man who lay at the beautiful gate of the temple; his healing was a witness to the glory of Christ and the same thing was true of the tongues. All were by the distribution of the Holy Spirit and witnesses of the glory of Christ; the burden of the testimony of Peter and John was that Christ [p. 344] was exalted.
JSA And in that sense the Spirit was the Spirit of power.
Ques In Ephesians is it the building up of the body?
FER Quite so. You get the foundation gifts, apostles, and prophets, then the gifts which continue for the perfecting of the body.
WHC Is there any difference in Stephen’s testimony from that, or was it the same thing?
FER Testimony had been given in the way of signs; but Stephen’s testimony was more moral; they saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.
WM What is the meaning of that?
FER I think his face bore a reflection of heavenly light.
JT Would you say that in the gifts the voice of Christ was heard.
FER Yes.
RSS When the chapter closes does the apostle turn from that which is outward to that which should be inward, “and yet show I unto you a more excellent way”?
FER Yes. It is a great thing for us that when these gifts have largely passed away, there is left the more excellent way. These sign gifts have passed away, for when once the kingdom was established, and the church here, there was no longer occasion for sign gifts.
RSS So you have the best thing left.
Ques What is the more excellent way?
FER Love. So in chapter 14, it says, “Follow after love”, not follow after gifts.
GR What answers to the miracles of healing, etc., in the Lord’s ministry, and the apostle’s at the beginning, is moral now.
FER Yes, christianity is there; it does not need re-establishing. Christianity is a standing witness to Christ and [p. 345] God.
WM You mean the Holy Spirit is here?
FER Yes. The effort of the present day is not to deny christianity, but to make out that it is no better than anything else.
RSS So we had some time ago a parliament of religions in this country.
FER I do not know what they said, but probably they came to the conclusion that there was a bit more in favour of christianity than in the other religions.
GR To look for signs of healing and that kind of thing today is laying yourself open to the enemy.
FER People who go in for that take up healing for healing’s sake; but it came out in early days as a sign. The man who was healed at the gate of the temple was healed not simply for the sake of healing, but that man was a sign.
Ques Is that in the same way as the raising of Lazarus?
FER Yes, it was a sign.
JSA And the gifts are looked at as a sample of the power of the world to come.
FER It is no good establishing a kind of Bethshan; if you see a man sick in the streets let us see you raise that man up. Peter said, “Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk”. Make that man to rise up and walk. But starting houses and getting credulous people into them is not the thing that is presented in Scripture.
WM It is doing the thing in a corner.
FER Yes, and not a sign in that sense.
RSS It is for the good of man and not for the glory of God.
WM What you said last night was helpful, that when Christ wrought miracles of healing it was to open an avenue to man’s heart.
FER I think that was the reason. Miracles were so many expressions of the goodness of God, and [p. 346] the goodness of God was bent on reaching the heart of man. That is the way with the gospel; it has come into the world in order that God may get an avenue into the heart of man.
WM He makes Himself known as love.
JP Would you say that in 1 Corinthians 12 we have the assembly in its simplest form?
FER The chapter shows the consequences of the presence of the Spirit. It is very important to see how one thing hangs upon another. In order to effectuate the kingdom you must have the Spirit, else there is no kingdom at all; and a necessary consequence of the Spirit being here is the house and the body.
JP Would you say the foundation was laid in the cross, and the kingdom was inaugurated when Christ was exalted at the right hand of God?
FER Yes; you get three steps as regards the foundation. In the death of Christ righteousness was accomplished; in the resurrection of Christ righteousness was testified, and in the glory of Christ righteousness was celebrated, that is, in the establishment of the kingdom. The kingdom is the celebration of righteousness and from that fact it means security to man.
JP The glad tidings of the kingdom are now going out, and faith receives the kingdom; the Holy Spirit is given and thus we are in and of the body.
FER A believer is brought into the circle of christian affections by the baptism of the Spirit and at the same time he is become a member of Christ’s body.
Ques When you speak of security you mean for the one who submits himself to the moral sway of God in Christ.
FER Because that moral sway is made good in man in a power superior to every power here, “greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world”.
[p. 347] Rem That is how it is that one comes into the kingdom individually.
FER Quite so, we receive it.
Rem And the Holy Spirit puts you into your place in the body.
FER But the Spirit of God makes good the kingdom in you individually. “Righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost”, is individual. There is an aspect in which the Spirit of God is looked at in connection with the individual christian.
Ques What relation has the baptism of saints by the Spirit into one body with the work of the Lord in building the church on the living Stone?
FER That brings in the thought of Christ’s assembly, which He builds. Christ cannot build until the Holy Spirit is there; you never come to Christ as the living Stone until the Holy Spirit is received.
JSA Do you make a distinction between Christ’s assembly and the assembly in an abstract way?
FER Yes, there is the assembly of God and Christ’s assembly; they are different thoughts. You see the house of God as the church of the living God, but the house of God is not built by Christ. It is not His assembly. Christ’s assembly is what He builds. You must distinguish between the house and the body; and yet the house is the assembly of the living God, but what Christ builds is His assembly.
WHC Will you explain what the rock is?
FER I think it is that which Peter speaks of; you come to Christ the living Stone, “disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious”. It is the consequence of apprehension of Him in the soul as the living Stone. There is the confession of Him as the Son of the living God.
Ques Does that constitute the assembly of the first begotten?
FER I think so.
JT The house of God is here as the effect of the [p. 348] presence of the Holy Spirit, but what is connected with the assembly of Christ is the fruit of His moral work in the saints.
FER You can see the difference in a moment; the house of God comes under judgment; the body of Christ never will.
JT Did I understand you to mean that Christ’s assembly is a thought in advance of the body of Christ, that is, the body is here in virtue of the Spirit?
FER It is not exactly a thought in advance; the body of Christ is simply dependent on the Spirit, but in Christ’s assembly you get His work and it is more in connection with the apprehension of Christ personally.
WM So apart from growth the actual presence of the Spirit constitutes the house and the body and growth comes afterwards.
FER Yes, for instance, in the Corinthians there was not much of the building of Christ. A good foundation had been laid, but there was the building with wood, hay, and stubble; and yet the apostle says to them, “Ye are Christ’s body”.
GR We have had before us this morning that the body is for the expression of Christ here; that is the great thought of it, whereas in His assembly it is more the thought of association with Himself.
FER I think so. The thought in 1 Peter is, “Ye ... are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ”.
Rem The character of that of which you were speaking yesterday morning; He called them unto Him, and they came unto Him, and He then sent them out.
FER He sends them out but they were with Him in the first instance.
GR Do you not think we are very apt to make more of the going out than of association with Himself?
FER [p. 349] If that is the case, people do not carry much of the character of Christ. It is in being with Him you are fitted to go out from Him. Take the principle in a larger sense, we are being fitted by suffering to reign with Christ.
GR If we were more in company with the Lord as in the assembly, there would be the holding forth of the word of life, not preaching exactly.
FER Yes, that would come out in the church. You get in Romans and 1 Corinthians simply the elements.
JT You get the body mentioned in both.
FER The body in Romans is not mentioned in the doctrinal part, only in the exhortations. Romans never takes you over Jordan, all is individual.
WM Is that why, if one is in the power of the kingdom, he can overcome evil with good?
FER Exactly, the christian has a power in him superior to every adverse power here, and therefore the kingdom is the greatest possible security. Imagine a man who has received the Holy Spirit coming under the power of evil here; it seems a most strange thing.
WM Would not that involve a divine work in the soul? The mere presence of the Spirit does not necessarily give power.
FER No, but antecedent to the Spirit there is light, for the Holy Spirit never comes where there is not light. The first thing a man gets from God is light, and then the Holy Spirit comes to make it good.
WHC Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.
RSS On what scripture would you base the statement that the Spirit comes where there is light?
FER “In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise”.
RSS [p. 350] Faith is light.
FER Yes, there is not power, but light, in faith. People make mistakes in that way about faith.
JT They had heard a good deal in that passage you quote; having “heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation”.
FER Quite so; no person gets the Holy Spirit until they have received the light of the gospel. Men may be born again, but even that does not in itself bring to them the Holy Spirit. Man is enlightened by the gospel, and that is the work of the evangelist, “to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God”. Peter was sent to enlighten Cornelius; then it is, when enlightened, the Holy Spirit is given. “The Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word”. They were enlightened first, and then the Holy Spirit was poured out.
Rem Of course the divine work of new birth is always there first.
FER Quite so, but the communication of the Holy Spirit does not connect itself exactly with new birth, but with enlightenment.
JT You would say that that man is morally suitable to receive the Holy Spirit?
FER That was the work of Christ; He accomplished redemption, and prepared a company here on earth for the reception of the Holy Spirit.
JT There were two marks in the company in the Acts, they were gazing up after Christ and were in prayer, and then the Holy Spirit came.
FER Yes, but they had been enlightened, and then the Holy Spirit came, and that has been the principle ever since; a man is first enlightened, and then the Holy Spirit is given him.
HC What really fits a man for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the blood of Christ.
FER Exactly, that is light, because it is the blood of Christ that reveals God to you.
[p. 351] JSA There was not much of an ecclesiastical formation there, but a real thing.
WM It is a great thing to get behind the mere terms of Scripture and see the force of it spiritually.
Ques I suppose that was the order with the leper and the priests, the blood first and then the oil?
FER Exactly.
WM So that in that sense you could say that in connection with the blood, which is the witness of the end of man after the flesh, God is free to communicate His Spirit?
FER Because the blood is the declaration of God’s righteousness. You get the value of the blood in its application to us, but there is a much larger meaning in the blood than that, and that is in the declaration of God’s righteousness; and consequent on the apprehension of that the Holy Spirit is given.
WM God vindicates Himself before man in the blood of Christ.
FER Yes.
WHC Is there not the declaration of God’s love?
FER I think that comes in later; people do not at first see the full meaning of the work of God, they look at everything on man’s side and for man’s benefit. God’s point is to make Himself known, and the first thing that God comes in to do is to lay a moral foundation in man; man has been sinful, and the first element of moral foundation must be righteousness. A man is not prepared for love when he is in his sins. What he wants to apprehend is the righteousness of God, because he has been sinful; and hence this is the first light in which God comes in. He comes in in grace to lay a foundation in man’s soul of righteousness. Imagine a man getting a sense of the love of God without apprehending the righteousness of God; the thing would be rotten.
[p. 352] WM God puts Himself before man in a way that makes man praise Him.
FER And in a sense suitable to man’s moral condition.
WM Then he learns the teaching of the death of Christ afterwards.
FER Quite so; he apprehends in the covenant, which follows on the kingdom, what the disposition of God is toward him.
RSS That shows us that John 3: 16 is not the beginning of the gospel.
FER No.
Ques It is the apprehension of the Son of God, is it not?
FER Yes, it is in view of eternal life. When you get the kingdom in Scripture, the next thing is the habitation of God; it follows on the kingdom, “Jehovah shall reign for ever and ever”, and then, “I will prepare him an habitation”. There are three great thoughts in the Old Testament, blessing, dwelling, and ruling. The first comes out in Abraham, the second in Israel, and the third in David. Now in the establishment and application of these things, they come out in reverse order; the first thing is ruling, that is the kingdom; the next is God dwelling, which is consequent on the kingdom; and then the blessing comes in, because the blessing is the fruit of God dwelling. When God comes in to dwell it is evident He comes in to bless. He rules that He may dwell, and He dwells that He may bless; that is the way with God. It is thus that eternal life comes in, for the blessing is eternal life.
WHC The blessing is heavenly.
FER No, I think the blessing refers to earth.
GR At the present time it is heavenly things on earth.
FER That is because the time has not yet come for the blessing in the literal meaning of it, but you [p. 353] get it, as you say, by the introduction of heavenly things upon earth.
WHC That is what I meant.
JP You see very plainly 1 Corinthians 12 is not final, there is something better further on; look at the way it ends, “and yet show I unto you a more excellent way”.
FER Exactly.
JSA It is a great thing to have the heart well established in what the kingdom of God is.
WM Is that why grace is made so prominent? “It is a good thing that the heart be established with grace”, that is the kingdom.
FER Yes. In chapter 13 the point is the effect of love; you reach God, and that outside of knowledge and faith and everything else.
GR We are very apt to make a great deal of knowledge. I think Mr. Darby once said every bit of knowledge is a proof of ignorance.
FER Every bit of knowledge gained shows there is something more to know. There is no knowledge in heaven.
GR I thought we should know as we are known.
FER That is not knowledge, but intelligence.
RSS These three things, reigning, dwelling, and blessing, we have now.
FER Yes, because the kingdom of God makes good David’s kingdom. It is a principle that comes out in the prophets. You get in the psalms and the prophets, “Jehovah reigneth”. Now a Jew could not put together how David’s kingdom was to be Jehovah’s kingdom. We get the mystery explained in Christ. Christ is David’s seed, while at the same time He is Jehovah; so that you get the identification of Jehovah’s kingdom and David’s kingdom.
GR And as you were saying, God having established His kingdom in the true David it has gone on [p. 354] ever since.
FER I admit that Christ has not taken David’s throne, but He is at the right hand of God. When His foes are made His footstool He will take David’s throne.
GR Is not that really seen at the end of Ephesians 1? He is Head over all things to the church, not to the world; you get the word in Haggai, the latter glory of this house; that is, it is the same house.
FER The same house, a most interesting point. St. Paul’s cathedral may be burnt down half a dozen times, but it is St. Paul’s cathedral still. God’s house may be burnt down, but it is God’s house still.
HC Is it right to say there is a break in the display of the kingdom?
FER It has never been displayed, it is hid.
JSA I think we have taken things up too dispensationally; all this is morally true now, not dispensationally.
FER Certainly, it is important to see that this age is still the age of law and prophets; this age has not yet passed away. In the coming age eternal life comes in; the kingdom has not yet come into display. What is coming to pass dispensationally has come to pass to us morally, and that is a greater thing, because it has in it a formative power. When it comes to pass dispensationally, it will not be a question of formative power, it will be in actuality. Saints are being formed at the present time to reign with Christ.
RSS In that way we have received the kingdom, and have come under the sway of grace.
FER So as to the dwelling of God. The way in which God dwells now is that Jew and gentile are built together for a habitation of God by the Spirit; and the blessing of eternal life is brought within the reach of saints, but you can only touch it in association with Christ; the fact is not yet brought to pass.