THE PLACE OF ISRAEL IN THE THOUGHTS OF GOD
THE PLACE OF ISRAEL IN THE THOUGHTS OF GOD
JT It might be very profitable for us to consider the place of Israel in the thoughts of God. The first few verses of Romans 9 seem to me to indicate the place of Israel in the thoughts of God.
JP I suppose the tendency with us has been to be so engaged with our own blessing that we have overlooked a great deal that belongs to the truth of God.
JT I have been thinking too that perhaps most of the things that we speak of as blessings which we have come into in christianity, we find in Scripture to be primarily connected with Israel.
Ques For instance, sonship?
JT Yes, that is the first thing mentioned: the adoption belongs to them.
JP And the adoption is sonship. I believe what is so important and so helpful to us is to apprehend the greatness of God’s purposes, not simply to take in our part, but to apprehend God’s purposes in their entirety. I think that everything then falls into its own place.
Rem Whether as regards Israel or the church.
JT Yes, and it is not only that these things are presented as a subject for faith (that is, as something to come in in the future) in the Scriptures, but I think that every element is available at the present time.
WCR What do you mean by that?
JT Well, take the first one here, the adoption; it is not simply represented as a matter of faith, but it is available, as is clearly shown in chapter 8. It is not simply that you are in the light of sonship, but that you have the spirit of sonship: “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God”.
JP What about the glory?
JT I suppose that also is connected with the Holy Spirit. He is the “Spirit of glory”, 1 Peter 4: 14.
Ques You mean that those things are available now?
JT Certainly; I think that this is exceedingly practical, because it shows that the thoughts of God have taken form, every one of them. Of course, where it says, “according to flesh”, you cannot apply that to the church; he is speaking here of the things that particularly distinguish Israel. What may be called blessings apply to the church now.
Ques Will Israel pass through death in the same manner in which the believer now does in order to enter into these blessings?
JT Israel is viewed as dead, and they come into resurrection. The figure in Ezekiel is very clear “These bones are the whole house of Israel”, Ezekiel 37: 11. That is what was said to the prophet, and verily they assume form and come to life.
GR It is national resurrection; they are not in view today.
JT They are only in view in the assembly now. In the assembly proper there is neither Jew nor gentile, but the remnant of Israel is maintained there. That is the point the apostle makes in chapter 11: he adduces himself as a proof of it. Indeed the apostle goes so far as to say elsewhere that not only the remnant shall be saved, but that the whole twelve tribes were “instantly serving God day and night” and that they hoped to come to the resurrection (Acts 26: 7).
Ques I do not quite understand how they are preserved in the assembly. You mean that there are Israelites coming into the light of God’s favour now?
JT I think so; a remnant of Israel is merged into the assembly; they are so taken account of.
Rem God added to the assembly such as should be [p. 3] saved.
JT Yes, the spared remnant of Israel.
Rem Then their place is far better than Israel nationally.
JT They come into heavenly glory in result. In spite of the national breakdown God preserves the true Israel in the church. Nothing that God introduces here can lapse.
JD-t It is always deeply interesting to me to see the work of God among the Israelites; the faithfulness of God is really what carries them through in the church.
JT That is the idea; the church is where things are preserved. Take the law; it is maintained, only that it reappears in a better form. The righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in those who walk not according to the flesh but according to Spirit (Romans 8 : 4).
JP I was just thinking how the Lord is causing the truth of the assembly to grow in our souls; it is really marvellous. You know all we think of is that we have got a little blessing for ourselves, but if it were not for the assembly, where would the character of God be maintained? Really everything is maintained in the assembly.
JT Everything. There is a very interesting point in Isaiah 8, where, in view of Jehovah hiding His face from the house of Jacob, it says, “Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples” (verse 16).
JP And does not the Spirit of God take up that scripture in Hebrews 2?
JT He does: “I and the children which God has given me”. They are to be for signs and wonders to Israel. And then in the same chapter (Isaiah 8) the law and the testimony are the test of everything, and they are the test of everything today. For faith everything is intact.
ARS Suppose some person came to you and said, ‘But the church has failed’. What would you say to him? What about the shipwreck in Acts [p. 4] 27?
JT Well, the shipwreck did not take place until they got close enough to land to get ashore. Every single passenger on board that ship upon which Paul sailed got to land safely.
JP There are things connected with the church on the divine side according to the purposes of God which never fail.
JT In view of the breakdown of the assembly the guarantee for everything is in Christ, the faithful and true witness. Directly the breakdown of the assembly comes into evidence then Christ becomes prominent as the faithful and true witness.
Rem I was thinking with regard to the shipwreck that God said to Paul, “God hath given thee all them that sail with thee”. Their salvation was bound up with Paul.
JT Quite so. While the ship was at sea the only salvation for the passengers was to abide in the ship; but directly it got close to land, their salvation depended on leaving the ship and going on to land. I think Christ becomes the land.
JB-t I think that is a very important point for souls, because they have to learn to rest in Christ; everything is maintained in Christ.
JT Things are maintained down here at the present time for the reason that the Holy Spirit is here; they are not maintained in what is ecclesiastical. The ship refers to what is ecclesiastical.
Rem I have heard it said that too much is made of the assembly, and the assembly has been put in the place of Christ.
JT I do not think you can make too much of the assembly, because God has placed His testimony in the assembly, and so far as I see it will be there eternally; I do not think there will be any change. What God has placed in the assembly here will come out in it in the future. It is not the saints as dissociated from the Lord. If it is a question of [p. 5] ecclesiasticism, you may make too much of it, as in Rome. The idea is that the assembly is Christ morally. In 1 Corinthians 12 the term, “the Christ”, includes the assembly; it is His body.
JB-t I look upon it as the Person of Christ first, the assembly second.
JT But that is not it. It is all right in a way, but at the present moment Christ is expressed in the church; you cannot separate them. The Lord is not acting on different principles now than He did in the beginning.
OR God will never give up His thoughts.
JT You cannot dissociate Christ from His body.
Ques If everything is maintained in the church, how does that connect with chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation?
JT There it is the public, historical thing that is in view, that which was established to bear the light of Christ to the world during His absence. Then you must remember that Philadelphia comes into view, and I have no doubt that Philadelphia represents the church according to what it is to Christ. You get the overcomer, of course, in all the phases of the church, but what He says to the overcomer in Philadelphia is very different from what He says to the other overcomers. He speaks of the New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, and so on. The thing to see is that although the ecclesiastical and official thing has broken down, yet the Holy Spirit is here, and the saints are here, and if the Lord is acting down here at all He is acting in connection with these, and that is what the gates of Hades will not prevail against.
JP That about the overcomer is very beautiful.
There were the three ‘mys’ on their side, and He answered with all the ‘mys’ on His side.
JT And then as you proceed with the message to Laodicea, the Lord is standing outside; but where is [p. 6] He outside? What I understand is that He is outside the ecclesiastical system, and He is found among His people, those who are morally outside. I think Thyatira is the ecclesiastical system. The Lord recognised the assembly ecclesiastically until Thyatira; in that church a remnant is recognised, and that involves separation morally.
GR But I have heard it said that the church never was ecclesiastical; it was always in the power of the Spirit.
JT That is true, but there was that which was public and official, and with which the Lord had been identified, which had the place of the candlestick.
That is what I mean by ecclesiastical, the proper church position publicly. I think the Lord suffered the church up to Thyatira.
GR One would see it in the early chapters of the Acts outwardly.
JT That is the idea. But to return to Israel; God had reserved a remnant, and the apostle Paul was the testimony to it. He says, “I also am an Israelite ...”, Romans 11: 1.
Rem We get that in Ephesians 1, too: “We ... who first trusted in Christ”.
Ques As a principle, do not the remnant always come in for the best?
JT They do. They always come in for what is better than that to which they were previously attached.
The remnant of Israel came into the church. But then in these chapters it is not the church in its heavenly character as connected with the divine counsels, but as the gentiles occupying properly the place of Israel down here. Israel is set aside, and it contemplates the setting aside of the gentiles also.
GR But they are grafted in. I think this chapter is very wonderful; it is most important to see the consistency of God with [p. 7] Himself.
JT So you get the doxology in the end of chapter 11: “O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! ...”.
FL It looks as though the apostle, when he got to the end of the theme, was overpowered with the grandeur of it and he breaks out with the doxology.
JT It is the glory of God that is in view, and the glory of God is in resurrection. What is really involved is the bringing in of Israel into resurrection, and in that way God’s glory is brought to pass.
Rem Can you say a word comparing the place of Israel and the place of the church? Will not the church enter into more than Israel will enter into?
JT The church has its distinct place in the divine scheme, but it is not so contemplated here; it is not even called the church. It is simply the gentiles that are in view here and they are occupying the place of Israel, so that Israel is cut off. But the point is to show the faithfulness of God in regard to promise “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance”, and so it says, “All Israel shall be saved”,
JP There is a divine needs-be for these chapters; we get to the middle of chapter 3 and it looks as though Israel’s fate is hopeless; then another line is followed out and the Spirit of God takes up the threads, unites them, interweaves them and brings them out in the fulness of time.
JT You get the gentiles here coming into the goodness of God; their salvation depends on their continuing in this goodness, and if they do not continue they also will be cut off.
JB-t What a wonderful chapter this is!
JT How contracted our minds are! We are so accustomed to what we regard as distinctive to ourselves that we have lost sight very largely of the divine scheme, whereas it was God’s thought that all [p. 8] His plans should be preserved and cherished in the affections of His people at the present time.
JP Do you not think that the verses from 11 to 16 inclusive in chapter 11 are very wonderful? They show what a wonderful place Israel as such has in the purposes of God. God has taken occasion from their fall to accomplish certain purposes in regard of the nations, and the force of the apostle’s argument here is that if in connection with their fall certain things have taken place, how much more when God takes them up again!
JT What will it be? “Life from among the dead”.
JP “Have they stumbled in order that they might fall? Far be the thought: but by their fall there is salvation to the nations to provoke them to jealousy. But if their fall be the world’s wealth, and their loss the wealth of the nations, how much rather their fulness? For I speak to you, the nations, inasmuch as I am apostle of nations, I glorify my ministry; if by any means I shall provoke to jealousy them which are my flesh, and shall save some from among them. For if their casting away be the world’s reconciliation, what their reception but life from among the dead?”.
JT I think it brings in the wonderful resources of God. It might appear that in the breakdown of Israel God was defeated. I have no doubt at all that Satan’s intent was to set Israel aside, for he knew perfectly well that thus the testimony of God would be set aside. He could not effect through Balaam what he could through the corrupting influences of the Moabites, and his point was that God would be puzzled to save His character; to do so He would have to destroy the people as thus corrupted. Phinehas saved the day and the plague was stayed. In rejecting Christ and the Spirit Israel is set aside. But in setting Israel aside the nations are enriched in the wealth of God, so that Satan did not gain his point; all that [p. 9] which God intended for Israel is preserved in living power among the gentiles.
JB-t It is all spoiled now.
JT It is in a public sense, so that the nations themselves come under the judgment of God, because they continued not in the divine goodness. It does not say the church; it is the gentiles in contrast to Israel. At the same time the remnant of Israel is included; they are grafted in among them.
GR There is a very interesting passage of scripture where Jehovah asks, “Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, whom I have put away?”.
JT Christ has never given up His affection for Israel; He feels the loss of Israel just as Isaac felt the loss of his mother; but He got comfort in the church.
JB-t I was telling a Jew on board the boat last week how greatly God loves His people and what their prospects are in the days to come, but it did not seem feasible to him.
JT If he had had any idea that you were in a sense the custodian of Israel’s blessing for the moment, he would no doubt have been quite interested; and it really is true.
JB-t It is very feasible that there is nothing failing at all; it is all being carried on divinely, although it is not manifested outwardly, but by and by it will be manifested and then all will see it.
JT But I think we should bear in mind that God wants it cherished here where the defeat came to pass. Every christian at the present time should be deeply concerned in regard to the divine counsels.
JP Is it not a wonderful thing when you come to take account of an epistle like this? It is written by appointment of the Holy Spirit; hence we are bound to believe that everything is in divine order. I think we have had a wrong thought about the three chapters, the 9th, 10th and 11th; we have regarded them almost [p. 10] as though they were an intervention, but it is the perfect order of the Spirit of God.
JT Unquestionably. In the first chapter it is, “The gospel of God ... concerning his Son ... made of the seed of David according to the flesh”. Do not forget that He is made of David’s seed according to flesh, and if He is of David’s seed according to flesh, it means a great deal. Look at the end of Revelation: in that last presentation of Himself, He says, “I am the root and the offspring of David”. Does that look like ever giving up things here? Never.
JP A man that can speak like the apostle does in the closing verses of chapter 8 of Romans certainly is interested in the divine counsels: nothing “shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord”.
JT Hence those chapters are in perfect order; they are what affection looks for, what a man looks for who is in the good of chapter 8. Those who love God want all His counsels and thoughts maintained. A man who can speak as the apostle does in chapter 8 is concerned about every single thought of God. The apostle could wish that he were accursed from Christ for the sake of Israel.
Rem Moses wished himself blotted out, but not the people.
JB-t It is a proof to me of the wonderful grace of God that He should be communicating His counsels to His people now.
JT It is wonderful favour on the part of God.
JP I think we ought greatly to appreciate it.
JT He communicates to affection; it is people that love Him that He speaks to.
Rem I think these chapters are not a break but a link with what you get after chapter 11.
JP Yes, we are educated in the love of God to the end of chapter 8, then comes the link, and then [p. 11] you get the chapters that really bring out the characteristics of the kingdom.
JT Affection ever looks for divine thoughts; affection is in sympathy with every divine thought, and God looks for it. The Lord looked for friends.
GR It is just the difference between a servant and a friend.
JT A friend is one whom God takes into His confidence.
GR Abraham was God’s friend.
OR Hence what you find is that christendom is filled with servants and not with friends.
Rem They are in the world, like Lot sitting in the gate of Sodom. The angels were sent to Sodom; but Jehovah says, “Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do?”. At Sodom the angels wanted to stay outside; Abraham was outside.
GR Is it not interesting that He gives a moral reason for it with regard to telling Abraham, for He says, “I know him that he will command his children and his household after him”?
JB-t It is a proof of God’s confidence in His friends. You communicate what is in your mind to your friend, because you take for granted that he is interested in all that you are interested in.
JT I hope that the Lord will revive an inquiry into prophetic subjects, for interest in prophecy indicates affection for the Lord. Prophetic subjects may be taken up as a matter of theory, but prophecy is for those who love God. The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. Directly the Lord presents Himself as the root and offspring of David and the bright and morning star, then the bride says, “Come”; she is engaged in all that with which He is connected.
JP We should be asking more about the security of divine thoughts. I ceased preaching about the believer’s security a good while ago. I do not believe in rocking the devil’s cradle. It is people who do not know God who want all this to be sure and secure.
JT I am sure what should engage every christian at the present moment is the security and maintenance of divine thoughts; that is to say, all the testimony of God in the assembly.
Rem The time is drawing near when all these things will become actual.
JT But it is a wonderful thing for God that they should be maintained and cherished in the affections of His people now.
OR Divine thoughts are not far off at all.
JT No, they are in the sphere where the Holy Spirit is.
BTF You get the will of God mentioned in chapter 12; what would you say it refers to there, that perfect and acceptable will of God?
JT It refers to the christian’s walk down here that he might prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God; the point is to prove it.
JB-t Experimentally, that is after our own will is gone in the living sacrifice.
JT Yes. I think it would be a good thing for us to enquire whether we have paid our vows. We have all taken the ground of giving ourselves up to Christ; really we do it in a sense in our baptism; the question is whether we have paid them. It says, “God ... hath no pleasure in fools”, Ecclesiastes 5: 4. If you have made a vow, Scripture exhorts you to pay it: and that means that you recognise God’s claim over you; that you present your body “a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your intelligent service”, Romans 12: 1.
BTF What do you think chapter 12 is based on? In the beginning of the chapter you get the word: “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the compassions of God, to present your bodies ...”. What do you think that [p. 13] refers to?
JT I suppose it refers to what is developed in the earlier chapters, inclusive of the 9th, 10th and 11th. If you follow these chapters out, that is, the 12th to the 15th, you get pretty much what came out in Christ as Man down here.
JP Do you not think there is a very distinct moral order to be seen in chapter 12? You see, it begins with God; as you say, there is the paying of the vow; you present your body a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your intelligent service. The second verse no doubt is connected with the first, and then he goes on in the third verse, “For I say, through the grace which has been given to me, to every one that is among you, not to have high thoughts above what he should think; but to think so as to be wise, as God has dealt to each a measure of faith”. Then he proceeds to our relationship to each other as in the one body. I think there is a clear moral order here in this chapter.
JT I have no doubt that the idea is that the saints are to be here for the will of God, and that involves the body. God would bring out publicly in the wilderness what His will is, but that means that every other will has to be given up. Baptism involves the renouncement of our own wills. Heretofore you yielded your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin; now they are to be yielded to God. The question is, what will God do with them? He will set forth His will down here in them.
JP And that in the sphere of relationships where He has placed us.
JT It is a wonderful triumph on the part of God.
Rem The idea is practically to set forth in the body of Christ what was set forth in Christ. On the coming of Christ it appeared that in sacrifices for sin and in burnt-offerings God had no pleasure: “Lo, I come ... to do ... thy will”. A living sacrifice is what God finds pleasure in, and He was going to find [p. 14] in the body of Christ (the saints) the sweet delights that He had found in the Person of His Son.
JT Quite so. Take a dozen men and women and put them together, their own wills gone, and see what God will do with them. You will find a wonderful delineation of the divine mind in them. The thought of God for the moment is not to take us out of this scene, but to delineate His will in us, and that means that you give up your own will.
Rem And so the thought in Hebrews 10 is, “I delight to do thy will, O my God”.
JT What are we here for? For the will of God.
You yield your body. If you let God take up your body, you will prove what is that good, acceptable and perfect will of God. That is the true road to happiness. If anybody wants happiness, that is the idea.
There was never anything in the universe like the assembly. Here is a company of men and women who were going on after the course of this world in whom God began to work; He transformed them into a vehicle of His power.
Rem When every thought of God had failed in the flesh, He takes up a people for the delineation of His will.
OR God will get true service.
JT God will do wonderful things when He gets a company of people like that. There are many members in the body, and all the members have not the same office, but all are members one of another. That is how the will of God is delineated. God’s intention is to put us in relation to one another and every one is to serve according to his measure of faith.
Rem In the first verse it is acceptable unto God, and in the second acceptable unto us.
JT You prove the goodness of God’s will by giving yourself up to God. Every member is occupied with the good of the whole body.
[p. 15] Rem It really brings us to the point of Romans 6.
TA Does not this chapter bring out that each and every one takes his true place; no one is seeking to be here and there, but each one just finds the place that God has put him in?
JT God’s thought is that His will should be expressed down here and I think all these wonderful traits put together form a delineation of this.