THE LORD LIFTED UP
[p. 416] THE LORD LIFTED UP
John 3: 14, 15; John 8: 28; John 12: 31 - 33
JT The thought in view is to consider these three allusions by the Lord Himself to His death under the heading of being lifted up. The first alludes to Numbers 21, the Lord looking back to the position of the children of Israel in the wilderness, and making a present application of the type. The type is alluded to elsewhere, as in Romans 8, but the Lord Himself in alluding to it here, is setting out the great fundamental truth in conjunction with the truth of new birth; and in reverting to the type, what will have been observed by those conversant with it is that it comes in at the end of the wilderness journey; that is, abundant time had been given to discover the state of man as it shows itself in the believer, even in the believer who is advanced in the truth. Numbers 20 tells us that the people had drunk of the water from the rock, they and their cattle, for there was abundance of it; and subsequently they acted as advanced in the truth, collectively, as one, to Edom. Israel spoke as Edom’s brother and proposed to pass through his territory, and showed a brotherly spirit; so that typically we see the believer in Numbers 20 as advanced in the full light and understanding of objective truth. He understands his responsibilities, and can give an account of God’s ways with him; and he is ready to act the man in regard of Edom his brother. Yet in Numbers 21 the people are impatient because they had to go round another way; and they spoke against God and against Moses; indeed, they said that their soul loathed the light bread, alluding to the manna, manifesting a thorough despisal of Christ as presented in the manna. All this would remind us that though we may be advanced in knowledge from the standpoint [p. 417] of objective truth, that is, the truth as presented to us in Christ, yet, not having learnt what the flesh is in ourselves, we are capable of the most serious conduct. They spoke against God and against Moses, and despised the manna.
HEF What was it that brought out the flesh in that terrible character?
JT It says that they had to go round by the Red Sea to encompass the land of Edom. Typically it means that the brethren are unreasonable with me, and put me to unnecessary trouble or journeying, and I grow impatient. I have not learnt how easily I may be provoked, and that is because I have not learnt the state I am in, sin in the flesh. I have not learnt how to use the Spirit to hold it in check; I have not learnt how to control myself. I need to learn the truth of Romans 7. As I learn that, I see that it is the flesh that is active. Speaking against God and against Moses, and despising the manna means that the flesh is not controlled in me. I have not judged it, nor formed a true estimate of it, nor have I learnt to keep it in control.
WCP What is involved in the lifting up?
JT The first of the three allusions to it in this gospel brings out the fact of the lifting up, not who did it as in chapter 8. It involves reproach, and the most painful and ignominious death conceivable, expressing a curse; the person becomes a spectacle to heaven and earth. From the type we learn that, as lifted up, the serpent was in the view of everybody; the object of faith can be seen by all.
Ques Is it on account of the state you refer to, that they spoke against God? Is that why the serpent was lifted up?
JT Their speaking against God shows that the working of sin in the flesh is directed against God. The serpent said to Eve, “Yea, hath God said ... ?”, suggesting that God was not unselfish in proposing a [p. 418] limit on Adam and Eve. The attack was on God; so that the use of the serpent in the figure, first in the sending of the fiery serpents, is to remind us of the source or origin of sin, and that it has to be dealt with basically, that is, at its root, if the thing is to be dealt with effectively. It is not a question of mere restraining measures, but of the total judgment of it at its source.
TEW Have we to learn the aspect of the Lord’s death that would apply to the state to which you refer?
JT The fiery serpents sent among the people by God were to bring home to them the state they were in, typically, and the origin of it, that it arose from the devil. “The devil sinneth from the beginning” (1 John 3: 8); and we have to come to the solemn fact that he is actually operating through us, though we are believers and profess to love God and to love Christ.
PJB In referring to Edom have you in mind that it has a bearing on us in our relations with one another in our localities?
JT It is remarkable that our treatment of one another brings out this sort of thing more than anything else. Any unreasonable attitude on the part of the brethren, or any reasonable attitude which I am not ready to understand, is calculated to draw out this feature in us more effectually than anything else; and that is why Edom is mentioned in Numbers 21.
JI Is the remedy being occupied with the object lifted up?
JT It shows the extreme way in which God was obliged to deal with sin in the flesh. The Lord was lifted up as a spectacle to heaven and earth. It was to be understood universally, in heaven and in earth, what sin in the flesh is: “Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree”. The Lord used the expression “lifted up” in another feature in chapter 8, and with [p. 419] still another bearing in chapter 12; but this first one is the most important practically, because of the need with all of us, and especially with the young ones, of understanding the vicious nature of sin in the flesh. Even though one may love the Lord, and may have been a believer for a long time, certain elements bring out this venomous condition. So one has to see how God has taken account of it, and dealt with it thoroughly; as it says, “God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh” (Romans 8: 3); He condemned it.
HEF Does it help us to get clear of this matter when we can trace it to the source of the trouble, which is not in the circumstances through which Israel passes, but in Satan as the source of it?
JT It is a most terrible thing to wake up to the fact that I am being actually used of Satan in sinning; not simply that I am doing it, but that the root of the thing is Satan, and I am actually in his hands for the moment. Moses, at the beginning of his ministry, had to do with the serpent as a figure of this: “The Lord said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod”, Exodus 4: 2. God tells him to cast it on the ground, and when he does so it becomes a serpent, pointing to the fact that if I take myself out of the hands of God or, in measure, out of the hands of the brethren, I fall into the hands of the enemy, and he has power over me. I do not mean nor wish to be a tool of the devil, but I may be; and this radical type is to teach me that God has foreseen this, and has dealt with it thoroughly in this extreme way, so that sin in the flesh should not be active, and so that Satan should not have a footing among the people of God.
HEF Is there another feature of the truth running alongside our being able to trace this matter up to the source? I mean that God has condemned the thing in its source, in order to make way for the [p. 420] Spirit, and that is the positive power by which we are going to be set free in regard to this matter.
JT The first thing is that it is condemned; but as you say, the Lord has in mind that the believer “should not perish, but have everlasting life”. That is the first result according to John 3, but Romans 8: 4 connects it with the path in the wilderness: “That the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit”.
GP Does the Lord’s authority normally find expression amongst the brethren?
JT That is the normal way in which the Lord’s authority works out amongst us; that is, as we are in His hand rather than in the enemy’s hand. The rod as cast on the ground becomes a serpent; as under the enemy’s hand it is detached; but the brethren held under the hand of Christ are usable; so that henceforth the rod becomes the symbol in the wilderness of divine rule and authority. But how dreadful it is, if instead of being in the Lord’s hand as the expression of His authority, I am in the hands of the enemy; and yet I may be far advanced in my spiritual history, for Numbers 20 involves the end of the wilderness.
Ques Is it significant that the Lord says this to Nicodemus who was a most refined man as to religious flesh, “the teacher of Israel”?
JT Yes, he had to learn this truth. But the type contemplates the end of the wilderness; it contemplates the saints as having advanced in the truth on the objective side, but as never having learnt their terrible state and that one is liable at any time to come into the hands of the devil. As never having learnt the terrible fact that comes out here, one is liable to speak against Moses and against God, and to despise the manna. I think we ought to bear in mind [p. 421] the length of time Israel had been in the desert before this type is introduced, and compare it with our own histories since we believed in the Lord Jesus, to see if we have learnt to judge sin in the flesh, and have resolved that we shall never be released from the Lord’s hold. As soon as I allow fleshly motives in my relations with the brethren, I shall withdraw myself from the Lord’s hold to that extent; I may be still outwardly retaining my status, but to that extent I am serving the devil. It is very serious.
HD'AC Nicodemus was a ruler; possibly his rod of rule had become a serpent.
JT It certainly had in the case of the Pharisees; but I should say that Nicodemus was moving on toward the truth, and the Lord recognises that, and had in mind that Nicodemus should go the whole road into eternal life; but the history would indicate that he was hindered. In chapter 19, however, he comes out as identifying himself with the Lord in His death, so that at the end he made some headway. In chapter 7 he is seen sitting in the council; that is, he had never learnt to leave his class. Christianity involves that I must leave my class. Whether it be a learned class, a socially elevated class, or a socially degraded class, class spirit is always wrong. We often identify the word ‘class’ with those who are educated or have a status in this world, but it refers also to those who have no status, and it is as harmful in them as in the others. We have to leave our class. The rich has to glory in his humiliation, and the brother of low degree in his elevation (James 1: 10); that means that each gets out of his class. If I am a Radical, a Trade Unionist, or a Bolshevik, I am belonging to a class; I may pretend that I do not, but I do; and they are as harmful as any other class. Nicodemus had not left his class in John 7: 50, “being one of themselves”, it says.
WCP Does the overcoming of this become a [p. 422] matter of faith, having our hearts set on the Son of man lifted up?
JT That comes out in chapter 12; but here the Lord is Himself dealing with the thing, making it fit in with the teaching He is setting forth, so that we may learn at the very beginning, as believers, to judge the flesh. The Lord does not leave it to the end of His teaching in chapter 12; He brings it in here as fundamental truth. Chapter 3 is foundational teaching according to John’s ministry. It is not truth for us to leave to the end of our journey; it is truth to be learnt at the beginning.
Ques Why does the Lord speak as “the Son of man” in each of these cases?
JT It is a title that the Lord takes as rejected by Israel. He uses it more sparingly in John than in the synoptic gospels; but in each case you find some particular truth connected with it, and here He is dealing with sin in the flesh-in the flesh of man; not simply in the Jew (though it comes out in the Jewish profession) but in man as such. So when the Lord says, “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness”, He does not say which part of the wilderness, but reminds us that it is for the wilderness, whether the beginning or the end of it; as soon as I enter the wilderness it should be before me.
AG What we are as after the flesh can never enter into the land of divine purpose.
JT If this state is unjudged and allowed to act in me, it effectively hinders my entrance into eternal life; because the Lord says that He was lifted up in order that whosoever believed in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
COB What is the thought of perishing in this verse?
JT I think the allusion is to falling in the wilderness; it is used elsewhere with reference to perishing [p. 423] in the wilderness (see 1 Corinthians 10: 5); it really means perishing, that I am lost.
HEF Do you think Satan acts on the flesh to hinder us from coming into the purpose of God for us? Is that his object?
JT That is what he does. The Lord has that in mind. In alluding to Numbers 21 here, He does not bring in the fact that they spoke against Moses and against God; it is a question of the love of God; verse 16 comes in immediately after: “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”. It is a question of everlasting life; the Lord has that in His mind.
HEF I think you have said that we have the two sources here; the question of sin traced up to its source, and the love of God traced up to its source.
JT I think it is very instructive and searching to keep in mind the two sources. “The devil sinneth from the beginning”, as John says; he is the author of it; but then love has its source in God; so that the two things stand over against each other: the source of sin in Satan, and the source of love in God. Which do I prefer? Romans shows that my heart is to be the vessel of the love of God, and I am to enter on eternal life.
Ques Is it important that the Lord refers to heavenly things just before the reference to the lifting up of the serpent in the wilderness?
JT It is what He has in mind. The Spirit of God indited John’s gospel after Paul’s ministry was introduced, and it involves Paul’s ministry. It brings out what supports Paul’s ministry, from the Lord’s ministry when here in flesh. So the conversation with Nicodemus and what follows has the whole of Christianity in mind, the heavenly thing. The Lord says further, “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven”. The heavenly things are developed in Paul’s ministry; so that John includes the whole truth of christianity in his gospel.
HEF Do you put eternal life in the heavenly things or not?
JT Eternal life is evidently for the earth as to actual enjoyment; but with regard to ourselves as the heavenly saints, it belongs to our blessings; as it says, we are blessed “with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ” (Ephesians 1: 3); that is where they all he for us. That does not mean that the relations in which eternal life in the millennium as enjoyed by Israel will be there; that will be on earth, but with us the setting of every relation is heavenly, clearly, for the church’s place is heavenly, and we have part in eternal life thus.
HEF You mean that the church will enjoy it as no other family will?
JT Yes, it has its own fulness with us.
HD'AC There will be a similarity in eternal life on earth to the way in which we have it now in the enjoyment of the love of God, the love of Christ, and love one to another.
JT Quite so; only anything that the church has it has uniquely in view of its great intelligence and formation. What it has is enhanced on account of the knowledge and intelligence and formation that the assembly has as superior to all other families. So the Lord in John 10: 10 speaks of it in the sense of abundance, “I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly”. Everything we have, I apprehend, takes character from what we are as superior in intelligence and formation and dignity. I think that could be easily illustrated in human affairs: “The king himself is dependent upon the field”, Ecclesiastes s: g. He has to eat vegetables like the poorest man, but you see how the product of the field is enhanced on his table. That and other illustrations [p. 425] indicate that while Israel and the nations have everlasting life on earth by and by, they have it in a different way; it has not the same dignity and lustre that it has as enjoyed by the heavenly saints today; for after all, though our place is in heaven, we are made to live on earth; but what we enjoy there is enhanced in the church, so that I think eternal life may be included in the heavenly things of which the Lord speaks. It is Paul’s fine; he speaks of eternal life, and links it on with the great system that he has in mind.
SB Is the truth in connection with this lifting up important for us in view of our getting the gain of the Spirit?
JT That is what is taught in Romans 8, which alludes to the brazen serpent, only the bearing of that is our continuance in the wilderness, fulfilling the righteous requirement of the law; whereas the bearing of John 3 is the land, that is, that the believer might have everlasting life. God is concerned that we should not miss what He has for us, that we should not be hindered in our enjoyment of it by allowing this poisonous thing called sin in the flesh, which He has dealt with so radically and effectively in His own Son as lifted up.
HEF Would you say that while Romans 8 has in view that we should be in victory in the wilderness, John 3 has in view that we should enter now on the purpose of God for us?
JT That is exactly the point; hence we get the love of God immediately following, “For God so loved the world”. That verse indicates what His love would bring us into. “The world” there, I apprehend, is abstract; it refers to an ordered system which God ever had in His mind, that which is indicated in Genesis 1, and which will again take form; it is “the world” in that sense, that He loves.
HEF And He will never give up the thought of [p. 426] it.
JT He will have men in it, alive and living; death will be removed.
WCP Does the expression here stand in contrast to what we have in other passages, such as, “The prince of this world”?
JT That refers to the moral system. The Lord Jesus came into this world. John 1 speaks of it as having been made by Him. That is not the moral system; that is the ornamental system that God had in His mind in creation, and with men in it. That is what God loves. The world was made by Him, but it has come under the power of the devil, so that it says, “The world knew him not”. But that is dealt with, and sin is removed, so that the world might answer to the mind of God.
HD'AC “The world was made by him”, does not refer to a world of wicked men.
JT No; I think it is an allusion to what God loved.
HD'AC That is very fine; the world was made by Him, and God loved the world that was made by Him.
JT Quite so; He will revert to it too; the Lord takes away the sin of it, so it will answer to the mind of God, filled with life; death will be there no more.
HEF When it says, “Again, when he brings in the firstborn into the habitable world” (Hebrews 1: 6), is that when the world is brought into accordance with God’s mind?
JT Yes, “He formed it to be inhabited”, Isaiah 45: 18. He expended great thought on the world in those six days referred to in Genesis 1 in order to bring it about as it was then. He said it was “very good”, but He did not say that until man was in it. How delightful that world was to God, to Him who came into the garden to walk in it! But sin invaded the world and spoilt it; hence the need of redemption, and the dealing with sin [p. 427] at its source.
HD'AC God never gives up His original thought.
JT No, He comes back to it now in redemption.
Ques Do we get an illustration of it in the Israel over which Solomon ruled according to Chronicles?
JT That is right. We see in 1 Chronicles how Solomon came into dominance in Israel. He does not begin to act until David dies, as far as the record goes, but he “sat on the throne of Jehovah” (1 Chronicles 29: 23); and then the opening of 2 Chronicles shows what he did, how he filled the scene with glory; in the type there was nothing to set aside: there was “neither adversary nor evil event”, 1 Kings 5: 4. That is typical of what we come to by and by, when there will be no adversary nor evil event. The adversary and evil having been dealt with, the scene will be filled with glory, life and joy. That is a good type of what we have here, what God loves and what He will effect and bring into being.
HEF So that God would set us free from the flesh now in order that we might have present entrance into that world?
JT That is right. Romans is intended to open that up to us. But it is well to point out that while eternal life may be regarded as heavenly in character, as one of the blessings with which we are blessed in the heavenlies, for we cannot exclude eternal life from “every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies” because it is definitely called “the blessing” in the Old Testament (Psalm 133: 3), yet it is not the idea of the life of heaven, but rather that which the triumph of God has effected here in which we have part. We have what is higher and goes beyond that in sonship.
HEF Would you say that every family that comes into blessing will have part in eternal life?
JT Obviously-every family that comes into blessing under the heading of redemption. It is not applicable to the angels who did not fall. The light of Christ as having become Man is for men: “In him [p. 428] was life, and the life was the light of men”, John 1: 4. It is a question of men, and it does not go beyond them. Angels can never lay any claim to it. Unfallen angels stand in their original state; eternal life has no force with regard to them.
HEF But the assembly has entrance into blessings both now and eternally which no other family can ever touch.
APB How are we to take up practically this aspect of the lifting up?
JT It is what has been done: “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life”. That is a thing for the believer to grasp clearly. In order to grasp it I have to be taught. The type in Numbers 21 is intended to help us in regard to this. I find myself in the midst of the brethren as one of them, and certain things arise which provoke my soul. I am forced to do something by some unreasonable act of others, as Israel was forced by Edom, and my soul is provoked; I complain bitterly. Why is all this? It is because I have never seen that this thing called sin in the flesh has been dealt with in the cross. I have seen my sins dealt with, but I may have never seen my state dealt with. God has gone to the extreme to do so in this figure of crucifixion; for that is what is in mind, the most hideous form of death or penalty, the most ignominious, the most painful; for a person might hang on a cross for days without dying, a spectacle to heaven and earth. God has resorted to that in the death of Christ so that I might see how He abominates the thing, and has dealt with it most effectively. I take sides with Him in that, and now He says, ‘I have given you the Spirit so that you might maintain that judgment, so that sin in the flesh might not hinder you in entering your purposed portion, that is, eternal life’. There is nothing to hinder [p. 429] in Romans 8; there is the fulfilment of the righteous requirement of the law, and the enjoyment of life and peace. That is the setting of it. It is a solemn lesson for every one of us, and that the attitude of the brethren towards me brings this out in me is very humbling. It was Edom’s unreasonable conduct that brought this out in Israel’s case.
HEF It helps, too, to see that from this point in their history the children of Israel began to move definitely with the land in view.
JT That is what you get in this chapter; they immediately begin to journey from point to point until we get the remarkable statement, “the book of the wars of the Lord”. I am in the midst of enemies; the geographical setting of Numbers 21 is full of enemies. How am I to overcome? It is Edom that is specially mentioned; that is, the brethren. How am I to overcome? There is “the book of the wars of the Lord”: what kind of entry is going to be made in that book? Some war is on, whatever it may be. The book has its entries, and what entry is going to be made in this skirmish or this battle, or whatever conflict it is? An entry is going to be made, whether I figure in it as a man of war or not. Then the next thing is that they reach the well of which the Lord had already spoken. It was something which had been already in the mind of God: “That is the well of which Jehovah spoke to Moses, Assemble the people, and I will give them water” (verse 16). That is what they needed; and hence the digging of the well. It is the recognition of the Spirit. They sing unto it; and then they proceed further and reach the top of Pisgah. So that there is steady progress in soul after this is learnt.
SB Is there not a danger of our not realising the working of this form of the flesh?
JT It is a great disadvantage if you do not locate the enemy in any warfare. It is a great matter to [p. 430] locate the enemy, and to discern the kind of power he is using.
TW Is the sphere of eternal life on earth the circle of the brethren?
JT Yes, that is where it is realised and enjoyed. “We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren”, 1 John 3:14.
TW And is this conflict also amongst the brethren?
JT That is exactly what is in view in Numbers 21. Of course there is a Canaanitish conflict referred to at the beginning of the chapter in which Israel was completely successful. Israel vowed a vow, as you remember, to effect their utter destruction. The word ‘Hormah’ gets its meaning there. There is no difficulty on that line, but the difficulty is with Edom. It is what takes place among the brethren that brings out this poisonous condition in me.
T W. You spoke of the authority that is found with the brethren as helping.
JT We were speaking of the rod of Moses. It was cast on the ground and became a serpent; that means that if we pull ourselves away from the Lord’s hold, from the hand of God, we immediately come under the power of the devil. But the serpent was taken by the tail, and it became a rod; that means if I am in the Lord’s hand I become usable for the maintenance of His authority. Conflict among the brethren usually brings out this activity of the flesh; and the great thing is that there should be no casualties.
HD'AC What is to be learnt from the fact that it was a serpent of brass? There was no poison there; nor could it be charged with anything; it had done no harm whatever.
JT It is an allusion to Christ viewed in that way, brass denoting judgment, as One in whom judgment could be effectively [p. 431] carried out.
HD'AC If we really took that in, what a great result it would have in us.
JT That is the point. When any man was bitten by a serpent, he looked to the serpent of brass. It was lifted up to be seen by all.
HD'AC “This man hath done nothing amiss”, Luke 23: 41.
JT Exactly; but as the antitype of the serpent of brass the judgment was carried out in Him.
HEF He became absolutely the thing that had to be dealt with.
JT Yes, He was made sin.
RP Have you any sympathy with pious christians who, in wearing a crucifix, think they are pleasing to God?
JT It is idolatry; it is like Nehushtan. You remember how the brazen serpent had been made an idol in Israel afterwards, and Hezekiah called it Nehushtan, meaning that after all it was nothing but a bit of brass, or a piece of metal (2 Kings 18: 4). A person who carries a crucifix about is idolatrous to that extent. It comes under the heading of “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge”, Hosea 4: 6. It is ignorance.
JHB Will you give us a word as to the other two scriptures in John referring to the lifting up of the Son of man?
JT Yes, they are so important. In John 8 it is the Lord saying that they would lift Him up; whereas in chapter 3 it is that He must be lifted up, and it is a foundational matter in regard of our souls’ deliverance. But chapter 8 has not that in view. The Lord puts the onus of it on the Jews, the Pharisees: “When ye shall have lifted up the Son of man, then ye shall know that I am he”; that is, Israel’s guilt is implied, and the result would be that they should know who He is: “that I am he”. I apprehend that His deity,
[p. 432] His Person, is involved in what would be known as a consequence of their act.
JHB Has that been fulfilled yet?
JT I think it has. They should know. Certainly if you take one of them, Saul of Tarsus, it is evident that he knew. It is abstract in that sense; it does not mean that all the Pharisees should know, for the natural mind is incapable of taking in these things. “Ye shall know” implies that they did, and that they came into this great light of the Person of the Son of God; for chapter 8 is wonderful: the Lord is, as it were, forced-for it was not a voluntary admission — to bring out the truth of His Person, and that this wicked act of the Jews should become the means of the great truth of His Person coming to light. That is a great moral victory. It always is so. God overcomes; and the wickedness of man only serves His ends. The truth of the Lord’s Person comes to light.
HD'AC When He says, “Then shall ye know that I am he”, does it refer to His being Jehovah?
JT I think so: “Unless ye shall believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins” (verse 24). It is “I AM” there, of course.
HD'AC And He says again later on, “I AM”.
JT Yes, “Before Abraham was, I am” (verse 58). “Jesus therefore said to them, When ye shall have lifted up the Son of man, then ye shall know that I am”. The expression occurring throughout this chapter alludes, I believe, to His deity.
JI In what way would they know Him because of His being lifted up?
JT The truth of His deity, and of His Person, would come to light, referring to Calvary and the cross, and what happened there. It looks on to the full result of it, for instance as He says, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”, Matthew 27: 46. In saying that He cried with a loud voice, and He cried again with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost,
[p. 433] denoting that it was a divine Person who was there. The centurion, having seen it, said, “Truly this man was Son of God” (verse 54). That is one point; it is really what the Lord is alluding to, only there is much more. Take Saul of Tarsus as one of them; he was a Pharisee who came into the full knowledge of the Son of God, into the apprehension of His Person, “I am he”, involving absolute Deity. “Before Abraham was, I am”, and in this verse 28, where it is literally “I am”.
HEF Have you in mind that the opposition of the enemy in recent years has brought out more clearly who this Person is?
JT Exactly. There has been something, I am afraid, which corresponds to the ‘lifting up’ in the opposition, and the disposition to hurl reproach at certain persons and to hold them up to scorn. It is the same sort of thing, holding up to scorn and ridicule. Let anyone unbiased read the literature that has been printed so profusely, and they will see that it is full of that sort of thing. But the Lord has turned it to account and gain; He is better known now than before. It is “Then ye shall know that I am”: how great and glorious it is for our souls to take in: “Ye shall know that I am”.
Ques Do you mean that the deity of Christ is presented in God’s final answer to the onslaught of the enemy in that way?
JT What could be greater? God Himself was presented to them in that Person. He came into the world, into the world that was made by Him. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being ... . He was in the world, and the world had its being through him, and the world knew him not. He came to his own, and his [p. 434] own received him not; but as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name”, John 1: 1 - 12. That is the point in John, to bring that out. The crucifixion has brought all that out. What a complete victory it is over all the malice of man and Satan that this lowly Man, held up to scorn and ridicule and taunted on the cross, was God Himself! It was man’s heart exposed in hatred to God: “Now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father”, John 15: 24.
Ques Would it be the full development of men speaking against God?
JT Exactly. In John 8 the scribes and Pharisees are exposed as speaking against God, for the Lord speaks of the Father and Himself in relation to the testimony rendered; He says, quoting from their law, “The testimony of two men is true”. He condescends to bring in the thought of the Father’s testimony and His own testimony as being adequate. He condescends to do it, and they are exposed.
Ques Will you say a word in relation to the passage in chapter 12: “I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me”?
JT That is the final thought. You observe a little change in the phraseology of the Lord’s comment He says, “I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me”. And it is formally stated, “This he said signifying by what death he was about to die”. He is most specific here as to the cross, the kind of death He was about to die, calling attention to the ignominy of it, as Paul alludes to his own position “We have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and men”, 1 Corinthians 4: 9. The Lord was held up in scorn in that way deliberately by men. He points out here that in spite of that effort of the devil, as lifted up He is attractive. The enemy would make that a hindrance to the attractiveness of Christ; it is “the Nazarene”: but where God works we are not [p. 435] ashamed of the cross. 1 Corinthians shows how Paul regarded it, and he says to the Galatians, “God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world”, Galatians 6: 14. Christ was all to Paul; He was attractive to Paul; he says, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain”, Philippians 1: 21.
JHB What is the difference between the two figures used by the Lord in this part of chapter 12? He speaks of Himself as the corn of wheat falling into the ground; then He speaks of Himself as lifted up out of the earth.
JT The first, of course, is not man’s act at all; it is not a question of man’s doing; it is the necessity from the divine side, if there is to be a crop. It is an agricultural figure which the Lord graciously uses to show that He had to fall into the ground and die. In His being lifted up it is more a question of the ignominy of the cross; but that He had to fall into the ground and die was so that He might bring forth a crop like Himself. So the brethren are like the Lord, the fruit of His death. The being lifted up “out of the earth” calls attention to His being taken up out of it.
HD'AC How far does the word “all” go, “draw all to me”? Does it refer to everyone in the sense of God making everyone see what He has done in the cross, facing them with it? Or does it apply to those who actually believe?
JT It applies to the latter according to John’s way of presenting things; it is only those who are really drawn. The full force of it will be seen by and by when the Lord comes, and the whole universe will be centred in Him, not held merely by arbitrary authority but by His attractiveness. He is so attractive! It is an astronomical figure. He holds all by the power of attraction. It is now true for those who are believers; in spite of the ignominy, He holds us.
E Does “out of the earth” suggest resurrection?
JT No; it is the death He should die; because He was taken down from the cross and buried. It tells us that He alluded to the death He should die. He says, “Now is the judgment of this world”. The judgment seemed to be on Him outwardly, but God completely turned the tables so that the world is judged by that act, and faith understands it, and is drawn to Christ.
E Is it as risen in that way that He draws to Himself?
JT It is rather that He is presented as the crucified One, so that at Corinth Paul said that he was determined to know nothing “save Jesus Christ, and him crucified”, 1 Corinthians 2: 2. Paul also presented Him to them in resurrection, but he presented His crucifixion because the Corinthians needed to have that side presented. The fact that I am drawn to Him as thus presented means that I am ready to be with Christ in spite of the ignominy.
Ques Would the brazen altar answer to it?
JT The allusion is really to the court of the tabernacle, an area or space between heaven and earth. “Out of the earth” involves His being a spectacle to heaven and earth; everybody sees it. There is no attempt to hide the shame of the cross in the gospel; it is exposed to the view of everyone.
COB Is this the closing up of the Lord’s public testimony in this gospel?
JT Chapter 12 is that; so that you get Isaiah quoted twice. John quotes Isaiah 53 first as the final testimony to Israel, and then Isaiah 6. After that the Lord is occupied with His own. Of course the crucifixion actually happened afterwards.
HEF So would you say that the more ignominy is poured out upon Him, the more attractive He is to those who love [p. 437] Him?
JT Yes. No attempt is made to hide it. I am afraid that hinders many; they try to evade the shame. According to John’s way of presenting things the effect of the work of God is that a person who is the subject of it would be drawn, in spite of the shame.
WCP Does the lifting up out of the earth suggest that such an one is fit for neither heaven nor earth?
JT Yes; the jeers and gibes hurled at Him would indicate what men felt about Him.
GS Is that why John stood by the cross of Jesus at the end?
JT That is a good reference, and there were a good number of women there, too, standing by the cross of Jesus. John gives it great prominence, more than any of the other writers. John was near enough to the cross, in spite of the shame, to become usable to the Lord in regard of what was most precious to Him; He entrusted His mother to John. Had John been ashamed of the cross he could not have been used of the Lord in such a great and privileged service as that of caring for His mother.
JI The Lord shows His disciples His hands and His side at the end of John’s gospel.
JT That would be the testimony to His love; His feet are not mentioned in this connection in John’s gospel, but His hands and His side; it is the love side. In Canticles the hand is referred to as expressing love.
JI He was effective in that way in drawing them to Himself.
JT Quite so.