WITNESS TO NEIGHBOURS
[p. 267] WITNESS TO NEIGHBOURS
John 9:8 - 11; John 10:39 - 42; John 12:1 - 11
JT I thought these scriptures would help us as to local responsibility, and how the truth works out in the people of God in a locality in which they may be, especially towards what is more excellent — quality. John emphasises quality, what we should look for — increase, as it says, “with the increase of God”. Colossians 2:19. We should have quality in view. Chapter 12 shows the quality of those at Bethany. The dignity and the intelligence suited to service were there, so that the Lord went to the place in relation to what was there. And Lazarus was there, it says. Chapter 9 speaks of the works of God; it shows how the neighbours of the man whose eyes were opened by the Lord took account of him.
WS How would that apply spiritually?
JT Well, it indicates, I think, how the local assembly or that which answers to it was formed. The neighbours would inquire, and that would probably lead to conversion.
WS Our neighbours take notice of us.
JT They do. It says that the neighbours and those who had seen him before said, “Is not this he that was sitting and begging?” They knew him before, and they see the difference now.
RS He is not a beggar now.
JT No; he is not sitting and begging now. Anyone who is sitting begging in a locality is no testimony to God. The believer should be a giver. This gospel shows what God is: “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldst have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water”. John 4:10. Chapter 7 shows that the person who receives living water is [p. 268] wonderfully benefited, because out of him flow rivers of living water.
HH-s So that instead of being dependent upon others, such would be distributors.
JT That is the thought. They would be like God. The assembly is to be like God. It says that those who ministered are “deputed messengers of assemblies, Christ’s glory”, 2 Corinthians 8:23 and it all ends up with, “Thanks be to God for his unspeakable free gift”. 2 Corinthians 9:15. So that instead of being beggars, we are benefactors to the neighbourhood, to the locality.
AG It would be to their benefit for the neighbours to take account of the work of God in one.
JT Well, that is the thought. The chapter begins with the Lord passing on; it says, “as he passed on”. We are in a transitional period; we are passing on, but this man came under His notice, and His disciples inquired as to him, whether he had sinned or his parents. The Lord says, “Neither”. The works of God were manifested in him, and hence the change, and the neighbours took account of the change, of the evidence of the work of God in him. In the locality therefore those representative of God are to show evidence of the work of God, and instead of being a public charge, they become benefactors to the place. The neighbours began to take notice of this man; we cannot very well hide ourselves from them, but we do not wish to, if we are subjects of the work of God.
Ques Would this be an example of new birth?
JT It goes beyond new birth. The Spirit of God writes constructively, and this chapter sets forth another feature. New birth is in chapter 3. We get more than new birth here. We get a man with mud put on his eyes and going to Siloam. The Lord spat on the ground and made mud of the spittle, and sent him to Siloam to wash, and he says, “I went and washed, and I received sight”. It is an [p. 269] account of what happened. No one can say what happens in new birth, you could hardly define it; “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh or whither it goeth”, John 3:8 but you see the effect of it. But of what happened to this man, he gives an account. He tells about the Lord making clay of the spittle and applying that to his eyes — what Jesus did, and what he did.
HH-s The neighbours could not very well take account of new birth, but they could take account of the evidence of the work of God.
JT Well, new birth is the work of God, only it does not go so far as this. It is like a tree falling from the effect of the wind, but here it is a man’s eyes opened by mud put on them and by washing in Siloam.
Ques Do you regard this as the initial stage with regard to the work of God?
JT Well, it is included in the line of this gospel. The scripture is constructive; if you get a feature of the work of God in chapter 9 it assumes what is spoken of earlier. It assumes new birth and the gift of the Spirit. The gift of the Spirit as spoken of in chapter 4 is living water; in chapter 7 it flows out as rivers, so that the believer is intended to be a benefactor instead of a public charge. This man had been a public charge; he sat and begged. That described his previous history — he sat and begged, being blind.
RS Would you say that the clay the Lord made was an unnatural cure, what naturally would have blinded him?
JT Well, it would have made him worse, were it not for the pool of Siloam. The spittle of Christ refers to Him essentially, to what He was essentially; as mixed with the clay, or earth. It refers to Him as become flesh — the Word became flesh. He became [p. 270] flesh, so that He could thus affect men. The application was made to the man as he was. Those who did not wash at the pool of Siloam remained worse than ever; but those who did, got their eyes opened. Then it is a question of being brought into accord with the position of Christ here, and we are to be brought into that. He was the sent One. The moral element is in His being sent. The man went; he tells the neighbours that he went; “A man called Jesus made mud and anointed mine eyes, and said to me, Go to Siloam and wash: and having gone and washed, I saw”. The same idea is in the going and the washing. Later on he says to the Pharisees that he went and washed and came seeing.
WS Would that refer to his apprehension of Jesus as the Son of God?
JT It would be leading up to it. He apprehended the position of Christ. He acted at least instinctively in relation to the position of Christ as the sent One. We cannot always give an account of our actions when they are spiritual, but ultimately we see what has actuated us, that we were governed by right instincts. The blind man did what he was told to do. He was obedient.
Ques Is that the obedience of faith?
JT Exactly. We can never appear in the local company as representatives of God without the principle of obedience.
Ques In John 17 the Lord says, “They have believed that thou didst send me”. John 17:8 Is that a product of the work of God?
JT Yes; they came to apprehend that He was sent.
Ques Is that the material then, of which the assembly is formed to represent God here?
JT I believe that is so. You are here in a locality as, so to say, sent. You are here on God’s account; it is not that you have adopted some [p. 271] worldly religion or set of doctrines; you are here on account of God as representatives.
Ques Would you say that that is not quite public, it is the spiritual side, but seen by the movements of the man?
JT The movements of the man show what is going on inside him, like the hands of a clock. The neighbourhood is affected; we can specially note the neighbours take account of that which works out in the local setting of the believer. I have to come under the eyes of my neighbours.
Rem So it is the same person, but his movements are quite different now. He said, “I am he”. John 18:8.
JT That is the idea; it is what you were before and what you are now. So the local company is not formed of persons who come and go, but of persons who have grown up in the place, who are known in the place, as some of us were saying elsewhere, they were staying there in the upper room in Acts. The Thessalonians are addressed as “the church of the Thessalonians”, 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:1 not the assembly of God in Thessalonica. This man was known as in the place by the neighbours, both what he was before and now. They know what he is now, so that it is the testimony that is in view in giving an account to them of the change, and how it happened. He became, therefore, a witness to the works of God, as the Lord says, “that the works of God should be manifested in him”. John 9:3.
Rem He does not call attention to himself, but to what the Lord did, and then they say, “Where is he?” He is absent, but they ask where He is. He says, “I do not know”.
JT Yes; he is not yet ready to say where He is, but he finds out later. The point here is what had happened; he will be able to tell the other later. The Lord’s supper as we partake of it every Lord’s day, calls attention to where He is, that is, He is not here. He is absent. He is in heaven.
[p. 272] Ques Would this be more the movement of His power in relation to the individual?
JT Yes; it is the works of God. It says in the beginning of the chapter, “as he passed on he saw a man blind from birth” John 9:1; not only that he was blind, but blind from his birth. He never saw. And then the Lord answers His disciples that neither the man nor his parents had sinned; it was not a question here of the governmental action of God, it is the state of the man, his nature, and God has compassion on him in it without charging him anything.
Rem Having got light into his soul, the man is faithful to it.
JT Well, that is what the chapter brings out. The thing particularly is how he answered the neighbours, because they deserved great patience and grace. They are just neighbours, and so deserve special attention; God puts us in localities on their account to be a witness.
RS It was not a hard task for him to tell them.
JT No. And he goes over the ground. You will note later on that they bring him to the Pharisees. That is another matter. The neighbours may bring you to the local religious leaders, and you have to answer them, too, but you do not answer them just as you answer the neighbours; you look at the Pharisees in a different way; he does not tell them all he told the neighbours, but he answers them intelligently.
HH-s Do you think he would like to gain the neighbours in order that they might become the subjects of the work of God?
JT Exactly. We are here in relation to all men. We take account of our neighbours; they are men and God is thinking of them; we are not to despise them. “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all”, 1 Timothy 2:5,6 and if I am next door to a man, it [p. 273] is quite right that I should be courteous and gracious, and talk to him, and let him know that I am seeking his soul, and the best way to help is to tell him just how God helped me.
Rem The chapter as a whole sets forth soul history.
JT It shows what the work of God is. It is a question of its manifestation. The word ‘manifestation’ is to be noted. “That the works of God should be manifested in him”. John 9:3.
HH-B Would you say that in that way the man arrives at the more excellent way that you spoke of at the beginning?
JT Well, he arrives at the Son of God. All this would culminate in chapter 12, where we find Lazarus and those who were with him at Bethany, for that is what we are leading up to here — a locality — Lazarus of Bethany. He is of a place, and the change came about in him, and the Lord comes to the place on account of him, or in relation to him. That is the setting of what we find in chapter 12.
Rem They do Him honour in chapter 12.
JT They made Him a supper. It shows the quality of the work of God there. What is here all leads up to that.
WS Do these different circles that the man is confronted with help him?
JT I think they do. He waxes bold, you will observe, in speaking to them. When they called him a second time (verse 24) they say, “Give glory to God: we know that this man is sinful”. He answered them, “If he is sinful I know not. One thing I know, that, being blind before, now I see”. John 9:24,25. Then they said to him again, “How opened he thine eyes?” He answered them, “I told you already and ye did not hear: why do ye desire to hear again?” John 9:26,27. He had told the neighbours, and then he had told the Pharisees. In verse 15 he says to them, “He put mud upon mine eyes, and I washed, and I see”. John 9:15.
[p. 274] He said to the neighbours, he washed and he saw — the historical fact; but in speaking to the leaders he says, “I washed, and I see”. John 9:15. That is important. While you are talking to them you see; if they do not, you do, that is, it is what I am now; not simply that I was converted on a certain day. If you are talking to these men, the way to meet them is to bring forward what you are now as a subject of the work of God. Of course, things may come in between my conversion and the present time; the point is, what I am now, “I washed, and I see”. John 9:15. And now they ask him again to go over the ground. He said, “I told you before”. John 9:26. That is another point. He is answering them now. You have to answer questions. When the neighbours ask you, treat them as neighbours; it is only right to go over the ground historically and give them the facts.
GT I suppose if our testimony is to have power, it must be a matter of intelligence.
JT The question is, do I see? If a person says, Now I see, you can easily test that. If you bring up a colour card before his eyes he can distinguish colours. The neighbours were different; they treated this man with inquiries, and he goes over the ground historically, but when he comes to the religious leaders it has to be more than what is historical; it is then the present workings of the power of God, which are undeniable — “Now I see”. They cannot go beyond that; they may question it, but when they ask him the second time he does not answer them; “I told you already”, he says. He is waxing bold. Well, that is the thing we need in all these localities, because we have the neighbours, also the religious leaders who oppose, and we have to be ready for them; we have to get the mind of God.
Ques Would you say that what is done to us through the power of God is done for ever, it cannot [p. 275] be undone, but in this case of the blind man the thing that was done to him was only done for the time he would be here?
JT What God does is done for ever. The opening of the blind man’s eyes represents what God is doing now in a spiritual way.
Ques In chapter 4 the woman says, “Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did”. John 4:29. How do you distinguish between her testimony and this here?
JT I think she alluded to her public history; what the men knew. It was a great deal to say, “Told me all things that ever I did”. It is very similar to the man here, only that she alludes to her conduct, whereas with this man it is not a question of his conduct, but of his state. Her conduct the Lord knew all about; that is the point in her. He told her all about it; He did not tell others, He told her; He went over the ground; her statement was the effect of His word on the conscience.
HH-s So that you would be sympathetic with your neighbours, but when it is a question of religious leaders who oppose the truth, you have to be very definite in your testimony.
JT Yes; and you have to be a present evidence of the work of God as effective in you. “I see”, he says.
AI You spoke of not being a public charge. In what way would you speak of that today?
JT Well, it is a state that people are in religiously. Anything that is of God around us comes through a certain channel, and they have to get it. It is on the principle of begging; they do not get it direct. They get it second-hand.
Ques In what way do we come in contact with religious leaders today?
JT You see here how it happened. They bring him who was before blind to the Pharisees; today [p. 276] the neighbours would tell the local religious leaders about it. They bring him (the neighbours doubtless) to the Pharisees. That is the sort of thing that is going on today.
Rem They thought the Pharisees could decide the matter. It has been often done in the case of a person seeking the divine path.
JT Oh, yes; they go to the clergyman. Such a thing has happened, and it may be their conscience is working, but they go to the leader and miss what was available to them. It often happens thus.
Ques What is there in the seeing?
JT Well, is it not important to see? The man here needed to see. He was blind from birth. It is a question of his need. We must see or we do not know where we are going. “If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch”. Matthew 15:14, Luke 6:39. It is not a question here of what he saw, that comes in later, but it is the state of the man. Believing on the Son of God shows what he saw, and he says, “I believe Lord” John 9:38: and he did Him homage.
RP Was all that on the line of the manifestation of the works of God, and the various apprehensions that he has of the Lord?
JT Exactly; a man named Jesus, then a prophet, and then he waxes bold. The second time he says to them, “In this is a wonderful thing, that ye do not know whence he is, and he has opened mine eyes. But we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone be God-fearing and do his will, him he hears”. John 9:30,31.
RP Is it that the work is going on?
JT Yes. You see the power of all this in the neighbourhood, in the locality, and God is working in others that they may come in in truth, and that thus the representation of God may spring up.
HH-s It is not only that he receives light, but he answered to every test that that light was put to.
[p. 277] Is not that the way that we get the real gain of things experimentally?
JT Quite. In the next chapter we see how the Jews surrounded Jesus; they surrounded Him, and sought to take Him. It says, “They sought therefore again to take him; and he went away from out of their hand and departed again beyond the Jordan to the place where John was baptising at the first: and he abode there”. What one is impressed with in this gospel is the deepening hostility of the enemy against the Lord. In the end of chapter 8 it says, “They took up therefore stones that they might cast them at him”. John 8:59. And here in verse 39, “They sought therefore again to take him”.
Ques Would you say that the Lord’s object in opening this man’s eyes was to set forth the power of God?
JT Yes — the works of God. The invisible things of Him are said to be seen in the physical creation, His eternal power and divinity, but here the works of God are made manifest in one person. It is a greater thought morally than the forming of the physical universe. It is what God is Himself coming out in His works in a man.
Ques Is that the goodness of God shining out?
JT Surely, but God would show His works; He has pleasure in His own works. That He would manifest His works is a very important thing to take note of; God loves to manifest them that they may be seen in our localities. But then there is the way of being shut up in chapter 10 with the hostility of Satan, and what are we to do? The Lord, it says, went away and departed again beyond Jordan to the place where John was baptising at the first; that is, you go back to first principles. It is said in the beginning of Acts that the one who was to be an apostle instead of Judas was one who had assembled with the disciples all the time when the Lord Jesus [p. 278] went in and out among them, beginning from the baptism of John until He was received up, that is, during all the Lord’s ministry. Acts 1:21,22. You go back to first principles.
Ques Do you think it was to show the state of things that He goes beyond Jordan?
JT Well, it reminds us of the beginning. Anything that has come in since does not alter that. We go back to first principles, and it says, “Many believed on him”. Many came to Him and said, “John did no sign; but all things that John said of this man were true. And many believed on him there”, that is, if you are a testimony in a locality you bring the believers back to first principles; you want them to believe on Him there. You do not want them to carry any current religious customs and practices or feelings, but to see that they have got a beginning with Christ, according to what marked Him at the beginning.
Rem God always resorted to the way He took the people out of the land of Egypt; He goes back to how He began.
JT Well, that is good, so that if anyone seek to walk with us, we are to make a point of bringing that one first to apprehend the Lord as at the beginning. He is unchanged, and the principles current now He set out at the beginning.
HH-s And they would be unchanging, no matter what the changed conditions may be.
JT Yes; there are many who believe on Him in the various denominations; there are thousands and thousands of people who believe on Him there; they believe on Him among the Presbyterians or among the Roman Catholics, but they believe on Him there, and thus they are at a great disadvantage. They need to believe on Him “where John was baptising at the first”.
[p. 279] Ques What principle does that bring out, I mean, “where John was baptising at the first”?
JT It is first principles that are called attention to; the things that were set out at the beginning. John the apostle himself said, “that which was from the beginning”. 1 John 1:1. It is not ‘He that was from the beginning’, but “That which was from the beginning”. There was life there; but whatever it may be, we must go back to the beginning to get the right thought. If I believe on the Lord in relation to false principles, I am to that extent disadvantaged, and many are like that. Thousands and thousands of people are believers in Christ, but they believe on Him in relation to religious organisations which have no sanction in Scripture.
Rem It would include believing on Him according to Mark, “Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God”. Mark 1:1.
JT Just so, and I would go back to Acts and see what is there, also to the first epistle to Corinthians to get the Lord’s commandments as governing the assembly, at the beginning. These are the things that are to rule us. It is an immense thing to believe on Him ‘there’, because you have nothing to unlearn afterwards.
Ques Does it involve the acceptance of death?
JT Quite. Where John baptised at the first. This gospel, of course, shows that he baptised again in another place, but that does not have the same moral value; it is what he did at the first. In connection with the second baptism, there was there a dispute between the disciples of John and a Jew about purification. There are many arguments like that going on, but they do not lead to anything. But a believer converted under circumstances of first principles has an immense advantage. He has not the same things to unlearn that others have. “Many believed on him there”, it says.
[p. 280] Ques Is it the place where those were baptised who were confessing their sins?
JT That is where the remnant confessed their sins. It was a wonderful time to see the whole country moving down to that place; it was a great movement of God. Where John baptised at the first they had a wonderful day with the Lord Jesus. All the people were baptised, it says; then the Lord came in, as it were last, and He was baptised, and heaven’s voice announced that He was God’s beloved Son in whom He was well pleased. Jesus was praying. What a wonderful set of circumstances in which to be converted, to believe on the Lord there!
Ques Does that answer to Acts 19, where the twelve men who had known nothing but John’s baptism got a good start?
JT Well, it was a good start, but they were missing out what John said to the people, that they should believe on Him that was coming after him, that is, on Jesus. They had not got an apprehension of Him. Paul spoke of Him to them, and they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus.
AG This man not only believed on Him but he had his eyes opened to see Him as the Son of God.
Ques Would you say that all the assumed advance that has come in in christendom is really a departure from the truth?
JT It is so; hence it is a great disadvantage to people who believe on the Lord in those circumstances. When you believe on Him there, then all things come to light; you come to know the Lord Himself, and the things you have heard about Him you find are true. If you believe on Him there you prove that everything that is said about Him is true. “All things which John said of this man were true”.
RS Hence the importance of sound doctrine, and of preaching a sound [p. 281] gospel.
JT If you get converts to believe on the Lord ‘there’, that is, in relation to the truth of first principles, they are better converts. Bring in the truth. The Romans obeyed from the heart the form of teaching that was delivered to them; note the teaching, not only the gospel, but the teaching.
WS It would include such a scripture as the beginning of Mark in connection with John the baptist.
JT Quite; you emphasise the word ‘beginning’.
HH-s You get a wonderful company brought out in Acts 2 the result of Peter’s preaching first principles, and in these “they continued”. Acts 2:42.
JT That shows how they believed on Him in the right place. “They continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers”. The Lord ‘added’ to them in these circumstances.
RP Is all this in the line of formation of material for the assembly as seen figuratively in chapter 12?
JT What we get in chapter 11 brings the family in. The family is under the pressure of death, but the glory of God is seen: “Thou shouldest see the glory of God”. John 11:40. Well, this man in chapter 9 leads up to that; he is a person who can see. The Lord says, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby”. John 11:4. The believer who sees the glory of God represents another feature in the local company; if you see the glory, you reflect not only the works of God, but the glory of God. Then you get further hostility to Christ. In chapter 11 they took counsel, it says — a terrible thing — how to kill Him. Think of taking counsel that they might kill Him! Then it says in verse 54, “Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples”. John 11:53. Now, you see, He has disciples; He has a company [p. 282] of disciples in Ephraim, near a desert — an outward position where there is nothing for the flesh and they are known as disciples.
HH-s A fruitful land for Him.
JT Yes, indeed. That is what the word ‘Ephraim’ means. Although rejected in this world, like Joseph, He is fruitful. He has disciples: “Behold, I and the children which God has given me”. Genesis 48:9. They are to be for signs and wonders in Israel. That is the position here. Christ is rejected, and we are waiting for His coming, and in the meanwhile we have a testimony bound up among His disciples.
HH-s Something very refreshing for His heart.
JT That is what He has reaped in the land of His affliction, like Joseph.
RP Is it the thought that the disciples are unsympathetic with the world which has rejected Him?
JT Yes, quite; and they are going to be like Him, servants like their Master, for that is the force of the word: “And there he sojourned with the disciples”. John 11:54. We are His disciples. Then in verse 55 the Jews are all going up to Jerusalem to be purified, but in chapter 12 the Lord goes six days before the passover to Bethany, where Lazarus was, because all that was there is now to be seen. Lazarus is to represent the best of it, the best feature of it in the way of dignity, and Mary, the best in the way of intelligence — intelligent worship. That is what there was for Him and what there was for God there. It is a question of quality. That is what He gets in the assembly. What dignity and intelligence should mark us there!
HH-s Do you think Martha would have been a better servant here than she was in Luke 10?
JT Yes; she is in her place here. Everything is recalled now in the light of the glory of God. Then there is the testimony of Lazarus. Many came [p. 283] and believed on Jesus on account of him. Persons may believe on Christ on account of any of us. He was going to be killed, too; he was to come in for the same treatment as the Lord. That is the position. They wanted to kill Lazarus, too, because on his account many believed on Jesus.
Ques In what way can we make Him a supper now?
JT I think it is in providing the conditions. There must be the same kind of persons in view; the dignity is indicated in Lazarus, he who had been dead and whom He raised from the dead. Then the Supper; it does not say who had it. It says, “They made him a supper, and Martha served”, because service is needed at a supper. She was not ‘cumbered’ about much service here. Mary is not doing anything as far as we read, but Martha is not complaining against her. Service was Martha’s line, that was what she was qualified for, serving, and providing food, but Mary was occupied with a higher thing. She had “a pound of ointment of pure nard of great price”.
HH-s It is a kind of Colossian position.
JT Yes. It is what the Lord would bring about in every locality, that which would be for Him, and they in such wise as to make Him what He would delight in — a supper.
Ques What do you mean by service being needed at the Supper?
JT Well, it is a general thought; all I said was that service is needed at a supper, or meal. You need someone to provide and to wait, that is the thought in it.
WS Would it in any way be a culmination of what you said at the beginning at to being sent, being identified with the Lord in the pool of Siloam?
JT Well, I think it is; you come to an apprehension of what would suit Him; you know what [p. 284] would suit Him. There they made Him a supper; they were concerned as to what suited Him, and what they did shows that they had a knowledge of Him, and what His thoughts were.
GT Would you say that in John 11 there is a testimony of life? Many believed on Him here also.
JT Yes. You have a risen man here, whom He raised — “where was the dead man Lazarus, whom Jesus raised”. He is dead as regards this world, but he is raised as regards God’s world. Lazarus represents the dignity of the company.
G T. Lazarus does not speak, whereas the man in chapter 9 does speak.
JT As far as I know Scripture never speaks of Lazarus saying anything; he represents what the saints are in dignity. A christian has dignity — silent dignity — that should mark him. We do not need to be always speaking, because speaking is not everything. There is a certain dignity which goes with a person who is raised; we are raised with Him by faith in the working of God, which raised him from the dead. Lazarus was one of those who sat at table with Him; there were others, but he represented them in dignity.
Ques Would you say that when we are gathered together as in the morning meeting the Lord is in the midst of His assembly?
JT Not exactly. The principle of our coming together is that He is there, and we are here. He is absent and so we come together to break bread, by which we call Him to mind.
Rem It says, “Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them”. Matthew 18:20.
JT Yes; but you are speaking of the morning meeting, I understand. Matthew 18 is not [p. 285] that.
Rem No. That is so.
JT I mean you have to take the thing in its setting. Matthew 18 deals with a brother who has been trespassed against by another, and failing himself to gain him he has to bring two others with him, and if that fail, he has to tell it to the assembly, and if he does not hear the assembly, he has to be to him as a heathen man and a publican. Then He says, “Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them”. Matthew 18:18 - 20. That is the standpoint in that chapter, and it is in keeping with Matthew, because Matthew does not record the ascension of Christ; that is not in view. The Lord would not becloud what He has in view. In Matthew He sets His people here to exercise administration according to His principles, and promises support as in their midst. Luke records for us the Lord’s supper as a memorial. Matthew does not record it as a memorial, nor does Mark. Luke only records it as a memorial, and John does not record it at all. Luke is the only one who records the Lord’s supper as a memorial, and who tells us that He was carried up to heaven. He begins in chapter 9 to tell us that the time “of his receiving up” Luke 9:51 was nigh, so that it is in view all the way afterwards in Luke, and that is the setting of the Lord’s supper. Matthew 18 is not the breaking of bread.
Rem In Matthew the verse preceding has reference to prayer.
JT We have the Lord’s day, that is to say, the meeting for the breaking of bread; that is a question of memorial, and as we were saying, this man in [p. 286] John 9, when the neighbours ask him where Jesus was, said he did not know. But when we sit down to break bread we do know. We would not say He is here. We know where He is; although rejected by the world, He is in heaven. Thus as we come together to break bread, which is for calling Him to mind, we recognise that He is there and we here. But we expect Him to come to us, and He does.
Rem The point I wanted to know was, if it was the Spirit that was with us or Himself.
JT Well, I think what we are saying is important. We know the actual position, and if anyone were to ask me on Lord’s day morning where the Lord is, I would never say the Lord is here. What would you say?
Rem Well, I would say the Spirit of God is here, and we are recalling the Lord while He is absent, until He comes.
JT During the forty days those in Acts 1 took no account of the Supper, there was not a word about it then. After He ascended it is said they continued in the breaking of bread. It is because He is up there that we remember Him in the Supper.
AG I think I once heard you say in connection with the Lord’s day morning meeting that you cannot make the Lord work automatically.
JT No, you cannot. The position is, He is there, and we are here. What He may do we have to leave with Him; He comes in undoubtedly; 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that He appeared six different times to the saints. It is what He does. He comes to His own; He promised to do it, but the general position is that He is there and we are here, and we are breaking bread as a memorial because of this.
Ques Would you say that John 20 is [p. 287] after the Supper?
JT Yes; the setting of that comes in after the Lord’s supper; the doors were shut. It is the spiritual side of the thing. Luke gives us the public side of it. This in John 12 is not a public thing, it is what we are and do for Him.
Ques What would this answer to in our case? You were referring to Colossians, in what way?
JT It is not the Lord’s supper here, nor indeed is it the assembly at all. It is strictly the Jewish remnant, but it is a picture of what we have as the Lord is known among us — the dignity of the saints, their service, and their worship.
CL Such conditions as these would give a public testimony, would they not?
JT Well, the effect would be seen. The Jews come (verse 9) and then Lazarus himself is a testimony, and many believed on the Lord because of him.
RP Would what we have in these three chapters suggest the formation of spiritual elements which the Lord can appreciate?
JT That is the thing, the spiritual elements. Luke from chapter 9 to chapter 11 deals with furnishings — public furnishings, hence the Lord appoints seventy and sends them into every city and place, where He Himself would go. He sent them before His face so that the furnishing, the public order of things, should be right. Here in John 12 it is more the spiritual side.
Rem We would recognise the Lord when He comes.
JT We should know what to do, and what would be suitable to Him; in chapter 21 John says, “It is the Lord”. John 21:7. If He is apprehended spiritually as among us, we know what to do; we do not continue as we were before; we see a change coming about. It is not now a question of numbers, it is our spiritual enjoyment of His presence.
[p. 288] AG This chapter 12 would really show the place the Lord would have where conditions were normal.
JT That is right. He does not do anything; but they knew what to do — they made Him a supper.
RP Affection knows what to do.
JT Yes. Quite.