ASSEMBLY SERVICES
[p. 59] ASSEMBLY SERVICES
1 Corinthians 5:3 - 5; 1 Corinthians 11:17 - 22; 1 Corinthians 14:23 - 25; 2 Corinthians 8:23, 24
JT What is in mind is to show the services in which the assembly is employed by God as seen in these epistles, that is, as in the Pauline ordering, involving subdivisions of the assembly or, in other words, local assemblies so-called. The assembly is to be used in the future, as we all know, in a great and universal way as one unit. It is seen coming down from God out of heaven in immense proportions representing the full divine thought in the sense of administrative services, but at the present time the administrative services of the assembly are in various localities. Each assembly is constituted to act for God, not independently of the others, but still to act authoritatively for God so as to be representative of Him in what is needed during this period of testimony.
In the scriptures read the first service executed by the assembly is that of discipline, the second is celebrating the Lord’s supper, then prophetic ministry and then in connection with the administration of the bounty of the saints in material things. These and other services are maintained in the way of testimony in the assembly. The apostle presents the assembly to us in both epistles as the assembly of God in Corinth; that is, the assembly of God in any city or town or place as representative of Him; it is that which He has in view of these needed administrative services. That is what is in mind at this time.
RST All these services are carried out on an equally high level. You were saying that the assembly is representative of God in a city.
JT That is a very important side of the matter. Assembly functioning therefore would exclude all [p. 60] that would be unsuitable to the anointing, and all such activities or administrative services are in the dignity of the anointing.
HW Are they intended to set forth something of God here?
JT I think that is obvious. It ought to be before us in coming together in assembly for any of these services that we are representative of God. Sometimes assembly meetings, so-called, lose their dignity and character because of the introduction of discussion and deliberation and investigation. The assembly is for administration and whatever service it may render it does it in the dignity of the anointing.
HW Recognition of that would help us to see the importance of the place the Spirit is given at the beginning of this epistle. The whole of the second chapter is mainly taken up with the Spirit.
JT Quite so. The apostle had led the way in that, because he shows that his services were by the Spirit, as he says, “And my word and my preaching, not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power”, 1 Corinthians 2:4 Do you distinguish between coming together in assembly and the whole assembly coming together in one place?
JT Yes. The whole assembly coming together in one place is not exactly that it should function in a collective sense, but that it should afford a suitable sphere for prophetic ministry or ministry by the Spirit, so that the point is “the whole assembly”, that is, all the saints in the place, so that God has full strength, as it were, in what is on hand, whereas a subdivision in a locality would come together in assembly to partake of the Lord’s supper according to 1 Corinthians 11. It is not the assembly but the character of the gathering as in assembly.
Rem An assembly meeting for discipline would [p. 61] necessitate all the saints being together from the various subdivisions, would it not?
JT That is what I would understand. In the verses read he was writing to the whole assembly and saying, “Ye and my spirit being gathered together”. I would take the ‘ye’ there to imply all, but as gathered together the word ‘assembly’ is not brought in but it is clearly implied. Is that your thought?
Rem Yes. I wondered whether you would say more as to the fact that it is not intended to be a deliberative meeting where discussions take place. All the facts would be thoroughly sifted and arrived at before the assembly meeting was called.
JT Yes. So that a mere precise statement of the established facts is all that is needed for the assembly’s conscience. The assembly will accept testimony. The whole tenor of Scripture is that it should. It accepts accredited testimony and acts accordingly.
Rem So that any action that follows the establishment of the matter in the mouth of two or three witnesses becomes authoritative and binding.
JT That is what Matthew 18 clearly sets out and it is set out here, too, and later Paul alludes directly to that and to Deuteronomy which lays down as basic in regard to disciplinary matters that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word is established. It makes the position clear and dignified as accredited testimony is presented by those who have examined into the matter. The assembly acts on that.
ESH Would you say something about “with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ”?
JT That comes in if the brethren are all clear as to the position established in ‘ye’, that is, the saints coming together. “Ye and my spirit being gathered together, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ”. These elements are the saints and Paul’s spirit and the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a very strong position, an irresistible one, one implying [p. 62] judgment that would be effective, for that is what is in mind. A person is to be delivered to Satan. Not that we would apply that in any literal way now but still the principle enters into all discipline. There is an act of God through this instrumentality.
CSS Does coming together in assembly suggest that the individual side is lost sight of entirely?
JT You mean the individuals forming the assembly? Yes, it is a collective thought. Matthew 18 would show that it is very authoritative and dignified. “Tell it to the assembly; and if also he will not listen to the assembly ...”, Matthew 18:17. All that is collective.
FI Judgment arrived at can only be arrived at in the assembly, not by the respective witnesses. Witnesses bring their evidence which would enable the conscience of the assembly to come to a judgment. It is the assembly that comes to a judgment.
JT That is right; that is how the thing stands. Judgment is by the assembly.
HW Why does the apostle say “and my spirit”? Why not just “the power of the Lord”?
JT I suppose the allusion to Paul’s spirit in this way would imply the organism underlying all assembly services, but the local assembly acts in relation to what is elsewhere, and in the measure in which the action is known there is support for it. These epistles provide for the general fellowship as well as the local fellowship. A local action is really an action of the whole assembly in principle and carries with it what there is on earth. I think it enlarges the position, bringing into it what God has. Paul’s spirit, of course, would be special, being who he was and having been used to gather and convert the saints at Corinth, but still he represents what there is in a general way.
HW I wondered if in our day it would involve that we come together in the light of the apostle’s teaching as governed by [p. 63] it.
JT That is good, too. It is his spirit. All that a man is would enter into what his spirit is. It alludes, I think, to the organism and the possibility of the Spirit being there.
PD Would the spirits of just men enter into it?
JT In the sense that Paul was one? Yes, quite so. The spirit of any just man on earth would be with an action such as is contemplated here.
HW That would teach us it would be a very serious thing to be out of accord with such a judgment.
JT Indeed. It does away with local independency.
SW Would such a judgment be based upon and supported by a specific scripture?
JT Scripture may be brought in, and ought to be. No judgment, I am sure, should be publicly announced without the direct authority of Scripture or it may be invalid, because after all we may come together and make mistakes. It brings out, I think, the delicacy of the matter, that the organism underlies it, that is, Paul’s spirit representing the organism. His spirit could be present although he was not there literally and bodily. Of course, the Lord was there. “The power of our Lord Jesus Christ”. So that the position is extremely delicate and solemn and I believe it should impress us with the need of being there in the recognition of the organism and that no element should be active other than operates in the organism normally.
FWW That is what you meant just now when you spoke of the Pauline assemblies. Does it take character from Paul?
JT Yes, they are contemplated in these epistles as directly his.
FWW I thought so. That is the basis upon which we move today.
JT Quite so. It is that or it is nothing. We are moving in the light of these things now in any cases [p. 64] of discipline. It is very solemn, so that we should be impressed with the need of righteousness to the exclusion of all other elements because that enters into the holiness of God’s house.
PD They that are spiritual are to recognise that what he says is the commandment of the Lord.
JT That is right, and they will, too.
RST What is involved in the expression “for I ... have already judged?”
JT That, of course, is apostolic. He accepted the testimony that came to him as true. Ordinarily we might say, How did he know? But he is an apostle and was used of the Lord to set up this economy. He understood its workings perfectly. He himself knew by the testimony presented that the facts were as he stated here for he sets down the facts himself. What he says here should be followed in any case of discipline. The facts are very clearly stated in verses 1 and 2, and it is a good example, too, for he is very brief in what he says and yet it is a most heinous sort of thing, a terrible crime. He will not admit of any controversy about it in the assembly; it is there.
SW Is it not important that he did not judge as at a distance, but as present in spirit?
JT Quite so, very good.
NKMcL Would you say a word as to the bearing of the day of the Lord Jesus upon assembly discipline?
JT It refers to the judgment. The word ‘day’ would be suggestive of the time when everything is manifest and clear. Other things would enter into the day of the Lord’s coming, but ‘the day’ would imply perfect clarity as to everything and judgment in it, too. What would you say yourself?
NKMcL I wondered whether the bearing would be that the rights of the Lord had been infringed in the assembly and everything would come out in [p. 65] connection with those rights in the day of the Lord Jesus.
JT The man is fit for that day. He is cleared through discipline. It is to bring out the service which discipline renders to a person disciplined. It constitutes him fit for the day of the Lord Jesus, that is, that his spirit should be saved. He would therefore, as we see in the next epistle, as the flesh is destroyed, be ready for restoration. It is complete destruction of the flesh that is in mind, Satan being employed. It is a remarkable state of things. Satan is brought into it.
Rem He is made to serve God’s end.
JT Just so. He is fit for the day of the Lord Jesus. His spirit is saved. It is a very striking statement of what discipline may effect. This is an outstanding case, but still it is the principle of all discipline, that it is not punitive, although Paul does use punitive expressions, but still it is not to destroy the man but to destroy the flesh, to do the best service that could be rendered to him at the time.
FWW Would Job be an example of this?
JT The book of Job is intended to unfold to us the principles governing discipline and the end of the Lord. How completely Job was saved in his spirit and personally, too!
FWW Satan was used as the tool, was he not?
JT Jehovah would have Job come under discipline in this way, and Satan was ready, showing that although he would damage the assembly, as there, God would use him. It is a very fine testimony to the supremacy of God in all circumstances, and that supremacy is what belongs to the assembly, too, over all circumstances, that even Satan, although near us, may be turned to good account.
HW “That the spirit may be saved”, is the object of all this.
JT That is what is stated, “... him that hath so [p. 66] wrought this: to deliver him, I say, being such, to Satan for the destruction of the flesh”, 1 Corinthians 5:4,5. There is no admission of any possibility of it being wrong, because it is “being such”. First we read “him that hath so wrought this”, and again “being such”. The matter is definitely so. There is no question about it that it is so.
Rem And the witness should be able to state that it is so.
JT That is the idea exactly, so that every conscience is carried that it is so.
Rem In point of practice, you would expect the brother who would be voicing the judgment of the assembly to refer to a scripture that would name the thing as God saw it.
JT I am sure that is a right and convicting procedure. It is a definite statement of the facts. The use of Scripture to confirm and guide is certainly to be desired, and should be followed, too.
Ques Would you think it necessary that the facts should be corroborated by a second brother?
JT I think it might, but that brings in another matter, that is of confidence. No doubt one should state the facts and another corroborate them, but confidence would accept that the findings stated by the one brother had come from the brethren who had investigated the matter, because they would be all there and silence would give consent, but the less cumbersome the better these things are. There is no need for formalities. If the statement is made plainly, the conscience is carried. All the brethren who investigated the matter would be there, and there would be no doubt about it. But still two witnesses would be right.
FWW Is it important to keep the organism in view?
JT I think it is. The brothers and sisters present are all in the thing and have already learnt how [p. 67] to hold themselves bodywise, not as so many units present but they are present bodywise. That comes out more in the Lord’s supper but still the organism must be present in the assembly services, even in discipline.
CSS Would you say another word with regard to “the power of our Lord Jesus Christ?” This is God’s assembly, is it not? It is not exactly the power of God that we have in Ephesians, for instance. Twice he mentions “our Lord Jesus Christ”.
JT It is the power of God used mediatorially. The Lord is given His full title in connection with the execution of such matters, implying that they are all in his hands. I think that is about all it could be, to bring in the authority of Christ, for that is most important. The apostle himself represented that.
NBS Would you think if we were under the hand of the Lord that two or three scriptures would be all that is required on the line of a prophetic word from the Lord to deal with the matter? Sometimes we have a large number of scriptures.
JT As far as I know generally disciplinary affairs and judgments are made unduly cumbersome. Scripture of course, is always Scripture, but this chapter deals with a very outstanding matter in eight verses. I am not saying that these verses should not be amplified in their application but brevity and dignity, I think, should mark disciplinary matters. What do you say yourself?
NBS I want help. If we are together in dependence on the Lord He would give the needed word as you say, in brevity, and sometimes the multiplicity of scriptures referred to does not conduce to help in the matter.
FI Going back a bit, in regard to the organism, you do not view the organism as confined to the local company but the local company as moving in view of the whole assembly.
JT [p. 68] Yes, only that the thought of the organism is applied to the local assembly, too, but without the article preceding it. “Ye are Christ’s body”, that is, they were that in character and that brings the thing in specially to that local position, whilst including by extension the whole assembly on earth, and I think Paul’s spirit being present would suggest that it is well to keep that in mind.
FI I was thinking that. One was feeling that in the judgment come to in a local assembly it should be in view that it should be a judgment which should be accredited by the whole assembly universally.
JT Yes, you can see how the rendering of authoritative decisions by brothers alone is contrary to Scripture.
HW I wondered if you would go on to that. Do you mean in the care meeting?
JT Yes.
HW You spoke about the organism being more distinctly connected with the celebration of the Lord’s supper.
JT It comes in there and we are formally said to be one body in 1 Corinthians 10. I think it can be readily understood that the features of the assembly itself would come into more evidence when we come to the celebration of the Lord’s supper than it would in 1 Corinthians 5 which stresses their being gathered together without mentioning the body. “For I, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged ...” and then “ye and my spirit being gathered together, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ”. It is a question of accuracy and established facts and power in chapter 5 but in 1 Corinthians 11, beginning indeed with 1 Corinthians 10:15, we get the organism produced; it is represented in the bread. It is a very touching thing that we should correspond with the bread which is the Lord’s body, so that it would be a love matter as permeating [p. 69] the saints.
PD Would you connect the thought of organism with the body as seen in the loaf?
JT Well, it is stated in connection with the loaf, “The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of the Christ? Because we, being many, are one loaf, one body; for we all partake of that one loaf”, 1 Corinthians 10:17 That is what I was alluding to. It is very elementary and, in the service that attaches to it, whilst we may have all the light of Scripture as to the body in our minds, we should confine ourselves to what is applicable at that particular time in the service, not bring in all that relates to the body which Colossians and Ephesians teach, but confine ourselves to what is applicable at that time. It bears on what we are as together, whether we are there bodywise. It does not say we are the body of Christ; it is one body. It is the idea of unity and affection; although we are many we are one body.
HW Is that the prominent thought in your mind when you speak about the assembly of God being here in testimony with regard to these various features, that there is the setting forth of Christ here in connection with the Lord’s supper?
JT Yes. I thought these two chapters show how this great service, perhaps the greatest of all the services rendered by the assembly here on earth, is the service of the celebration of the Lord’s supper. The apostle formally detaches the Lord’s supper from the houses of the saints. Evidently it had been attached to them according to Acts 2, but now it is in the assembly. “When ye come therefore together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s supper”. It means that their conduct excluded the Lord’s supper, but normally it should have been to eat the Lord’s supper.
Ques Is there anything more than party spirit that would interfere with that? It is the great way in which that service would be interrupted by [p. 70] the introduction of what is divisional amongst the saints.
JT It seems to be the leading thought in what the apostle says. It is more than what is said in 1 Corinthians 1:12 — “I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas”. It is more than that here; it is that greatly accentuated. They actually carried divisions and partisan feelings into the assembly. It is more serious because he says, “when ye come therefore together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s supper. For each one in eating takes his own supper before others, and one is hungry and another drinks to excess. Have ye not then houses for eating and drinking? Or do ye despise the assembly of God, and put to shame them who have not?” It would seem that they were eating in coteries together as professedly gathered in assembly and thus nullifying what they professed to do. It was not the Lord’s supper. They were eating in companies and the poor ones who had no houses or no means were left out. It was distressing. You marvel at the length to which partisan feeling can go.
Rem It may extend to this if it is not judged earlier.
JT Just so. It will be carried into the assembly in some way or other, and in that sense will nullify what we come together for, so that we may come together and fail in the object for which we come together.
FWW Would the partisan spirit, the independent spirit, break up the feature of the organism?
JT Clearly so. It is the sphere of the devil where persons are eating in several coteries and others not. He has a place in such a condition. They were despising the assembly of God, although the apostle does not say so here.
HW Whilst we are sitting down together in one circle are we in danger of doing this in a spiritual [p. 71] way and there being divisions or discord amongst the saints?
JT Yes, we may not be sitting in companies but inwardly we may be just as divided and even carry feelings of animosity into the assembly.
Ques Would the allowance of that deprive us of the Lord’s presence with us?
JT It does. It breaks up the organism and, of course, there is evil in it, too; there is leaven in it. So that we are enjoined to purge out the old leaven, whatever it may be. There is no time to enlarge on any of these subjects but only to bring out how they all fit into the assembly. The matter of prophetic ministry is the next service rendered. The assembly becomes the sphere of it, but it is the whole assembly in a place. “If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place ...”
Ques Do you mean that the success of prophetic meetings is not only dependent upon the presence of the prophets but the saints together in that character?
JT That is a good way to put it and a very important way. It ought to appeal to us to be present at such a meeting; everyone should be present; the more there are the greater the power.
HW That would show the importance of the opening verses — “Follow after love”. Love is to be seen actively working amongst the saints.
JT In touching the matter of gift in chapter 12 he says, “... and yet show I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence”. So that the saints themselves are greater than the gift or gifts present. The way of surpassing excellence is in the saints. It is not a question in that statement of the gifts but of the whole assembly. The whole assembly is a sphere of love — the way of surpassing excellence. Think of what it is to God when we all come together actuated by love — the more excellent way. What a sphere there is for gift, how much liberty there is, and the [p. 72] Spirit of God can unfold the mind of God to the gifts.
PD Spiritual conditions amongst the saints would make way for the prophetic word.
JT Clearly, it involves all the saints according to Acts 2:1, “they were all together in one place”. They were there of one accord and the Spirit came in as if to honour that and that should be in our minds in an assembly meeting.
ELG Does “all together in one place” provide a better atmosphere for a prophetic word than coming together in separate subdivisions?
JT I am sure it is so. Whatever proportion a city may take on God has his best in all the saints together. That is what He has in the way of public testimony here, and the way that love is brought in in these chapters as making way for gift is very striking. It is delightful to heaven to see the saints all together and in the more excellent way, and way of surpassing excellence, that is, the way of love.
HW The working of this organism that you spoke of is greatly hampered on account of the conditions we are found in. I was wondering how it worked in these broken days.
JT Broken conditions, of course, interfere. We cannot get all the saints in Adelaide together, nor in any town or city in the world, and hence God has not His best in our meetings now, but still He recognises what there is and according to the Scriptures all Israel that are present come in for things only they are in lesser power because the Lord says to Philadelphia, “Thou hast a little power”.
CSS Does it take in the recognition of what God has set in the assembly?
JT That is the idea. Chapter 12 shows that God has set gifts in the assembly; chapters 13 and 14 are to bring out the love. That is the great thing. Love abides and goes through. “And the greater of these is love”, 1 Corinthians 13:13. It is called the way of surpassing [p. 73] excellence. What a thought that is — that we can furnish that under God’s eye in any town! That is the way of love, and then the gifts have scope. Of course the gifts themselves may be hampered in themselves as to who should take part, but what is in mind in the end of chapters 12 and 13 is the way of love which includes all the saints.
Ques Does the effect of prophetic ministry depend on what has gone before in connection with discipline and in connection with the breaking of bread?
JT I think these things are in their order. If discipline is not attended to and the breaking of bread is not maintained in its true sense, then we cannot expect a ministry according to this chapter. We cannot expect the way of surpassing excellence.
JPSr You spoke of chapter 11 as representing the unity and affection. Would this bring in unity and dependence as to God’s mind for His people in this city?
JT Very good, that is just what I would say. Love makes the way for it, love in all the saints. I am sure we should pay attention to that. The whole assembly come together in one place and love being there, there is an opportunity for the Spirit to unfold the mind of God. It is a question of intelligence.
Rem Where those conditions existed you would expect the Spirit of God to come upon a prophet.
JT You would. To go back to Acts 2, the standard is that all the saints are there. You say, it is one hundred and twenty; there may have been others. We do not know, but they were all there; they were there of one accord and in one place; then heaven began to move. They heard a sound. It is fine when you hear a rustling among the brethren. You feel in your spirit that something is going to be said; everyone is aglow and you do hear something because the Holy Spirit has scope. The right conditions are there.
[p. 74] Rem It is set forth prophetically in many a scripture, but we see in 2 Chronicles 20 how Jehoshaphat called a fast and it says “all Judah stood before the Lord ... Then ... came the Spirit of the Lord in the midst of the congregation; and he said, Hearken ye, all Judah”, 2 Chronicles 20:15. In principle you would expect that in a prophetic meeting.
JT Very good indeed, for “all Judah” there would be the whole kingdom. Many stay at home for a trifle, you know, but really they are interfering with this matter; they are interfering with the organism and they are not functioning when they are not there.
HW Many, alas, only look upon the assembly as a place of the celebration of the Lord’s supper and do not consider these other important aspects.
JT No.
EWC How frequent should such meetings be? Weekly or monthly?
JT As far as my experience goes, monthly, and God seems to honour them and they are not allowed to displace other meetings. They ought to be additional to other meetings.
EK Are they connected with the thought of the new moon? It says, “Blow up the trumpet in the new moon”, Psalm 81:3. Would that suggest that there should be a distinctive note in the meeting for ministry?
JT Yes, but it is just a question of the word ‘month’; it does not enter into church economy. I think it is properly Jewish, Israelitish. Ours is the weekly. The scope for the services seems to include the week. That is John 20 would show that the Lord came in on the first day of the week and came in eight days afterwards. What intervened would be the development of what came out of the first incoming of Christ, and then there is another incoming a week afterwards and that seems to set up the principle governing our dispensation. But the month and the new moon are Jewish so that making it monthly [p. 75] would be more a matter of convenience, I think. The Lord recognises what we do; He is with us in what we do. “I am with you all the days”, He says, Matthew 28:20. If we come together, if it is convenient, for an additional meeting in a month, the Lord is with us in that. I am not ignoring what you say as to the new moon, but strictly it is an Israelitish symbol, I think. The remnant of Israel which had once been lost to view has come back again.
Ques Do you mean that it is a matter of wisdom rather than principle?
JT I think it is a matter of wisdom, the Lord leaving these things to us. He does not tell us to have a reading on Wednesday and a prayer meeting on Monday; He leaves these things. There is latitude in that way in our services.
Rem So that if we are not wilful we will soon find what God honours and supports amongst the saints.
JT That is just it. One has often suggested that our procedure at such a meeting as this and other meetings may not exactly correspond with what they did at the beginning but the Lord is manifestly with the brethren and they are not out of keeping with what is mentioned at the beginning. Whether the meetings then took the same form, I do not know. It would be questionable.
CSS Do you suggest that all localities should be alive to this matter of coming together in one place for these meetings? Sometimes there does not seem the power for it.
JT The power is supposed to be when they come together. It is when we come together that power is realised. In truth it is a matter of faith. The Lord says, “According to your faith be it unto you”, Matthew 9:29 I was going to enquire the difference between “whenever ye come together” in 1 Corinthians 14:26 and “if then the whole assembly come together” in 1 Corinthians 14:23.
JT I think the “if” in verse 23 bears out what we were saying. It is left open, as if the Lord would say, ‘If you do it, whenever you do it I am with you’. Then verse 26 is enlarging on the matter as to the procedure. “What is it then, brethren? whenever ye come together”. There again it is “whenever”. It is not a stated time like a weekly meeting. He indicates the order in which the service is to be carried on. But in chapter 11 it says, “when ye come together in assembly”. It is not ‘if’ but “when” as if it were a definite thing and practice; that he is dealing with a definite thing that went on amongst them. The “if” and the “whenever”, I think, suggest a little more openness and elasticity as regards this meeting than what we have stated as regards the Lord’s supper. What do you say yourself?
NBS I thought that. But I wondered if “whenever” left it open where the whole assembly together in one place is in view.
JT We can only act in the light of these things, as we always say, but the Lord is with us. What can anyone say if the Lord is with us? And every Christian sensitive in the organism knows when He is there. That is one of the features of the organism that you discern that He is with us.
JPSr We would delight to come together for such occasions to know the presence of God amongst us.
JT Just so. It is a question of God at His strength, so to speak, in this passage, that He has got the full strength of what He has in the place under His hand and hence the great results in the ministry of prophecy.
FI Do you think that a meeting like this would be helpful in times of crisis or difficulty amongst us locally?
JT Very much so. 1 Samuel 19 brings that out most strikingly. It was a time of great crisis [p. 77] because Saul was endeavouring to slay David — a terrible state of things. Jonathan saves David and Michael saves David, but then this final attack seems to be irresistible. Saul sends messengers to where David was and when they come, instead of taking David they find the prophets prophesying under the presidency of Samuel. It is the full thought of the thing, and the messengers come under the power of ministry and they do not attack David. Other messengers of Saul come and the same thing happens. It is the power of ministry. Finally Saul himself comes and the same thing happens. That brings out in a most striking manner what prophecy is as meeting a crisis. The enemy is completely defeated.
SW Prophetic ministry is not limited to a meeting of this character.
JT Indeed no, but it ought to enter into a meeting like this.
Ques Would we get a greater sense that God is for us in prophetic ministry?
JT Yes. You can see how the assembly would be established at Corinth in occurrences like this — the occurrences that are described in verses 24 and 25. “But if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or simple person come in, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all; the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you”, 1 Corinthians 14:24 - 25. It is said of that man that he reports things and he falls down and worships God which is the great thought. It secures the worship of God, but then he reports things. You can understand how he would go home to his house and say, I have a wonderful experience today. I have never been in a company like that. I have been in the Jewish synagogue and the idol house but I went into the Christian assembly today and it was a wonderful time. That is what God has. And that man comes into the benefit of what God [p. 78] has, and now he is reporting it, so that the assembly is enhanced immensely by the power of God expressed in prophetic ministry.
EB Is this really the answer to the first chapter in regard to God’s assembly? It is the testimony rendered now and God is indeed there.
JT Quite so. “That God is indeed amongst you”. The man is convicted and would tell the truth.
EB All these matters cause us great exercise at the present moment in view of making room for God to come in, which He desires. Every one of us should be greatly concerned to provide these occasions for divine Persons to operate.
JT That is the point, that all were present, the whole assembly, and then all prophesying. The idea of prophecy is to be in our minds, not simply teaching, but prophesying.
Ques Does it mean that every brother should learn to hold himself available on such an occasion?
JT That I think is what is in mind, so that you have in the procedure described, that if one is speaking something may be revealed to another sitting by and the one that is speaking is to know that and that brings out that the organism underlies this, the sensitiveness by which we discern that another has something from God and you sit down immediately to make room for that other.
EWC What would be the character of what is prophetic in such a meeting as that?
JT The effect of it on the soul of this man we read about is that he is convicted of all. That is, all that are present are brought into the conviction. It is a collective matter and he is judged of all; they are brought into it. And then the secrets of his heart are manifested and thus falling upon his face he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you. That, I think, illustrates what the prophetic ministry is. It is bringing God to his [p. 79] conscience so that he worships God as convicted of sin. But all the others convicted him, too; they are all in it.
NKMcL That would include brothers and sisters as well.
JT Yes, it is the whole assembly.
FI Would you say that although you may get prophetic ministry in our comings together generally, yet in normal conditions there will be more power in a meeting of this description of which we are speaking?
JT That is evidently what God had in mind, to bring out what He had in Corinth as over against all else that was there. God was in the assembly and here is a man completely secured for God. He is securing men for Himself and they are worshippers to worship God.
FI That is, the meeting primarily is not for the man but for believers. As the result of the prophetic word it showed the power there was there by the man being brought under conviction.
JT I should say that every person present would feel the thing that brought that man to confess his secrets, that every person present would also be searched by the same thing. The others had judged themselves normally but this man had not till now. He is convicted of all and judged of all, which means that we are all judged by the same ministry. You say, It searched my soul; I understand that man because it searched my soul. That is the idea. God comes to us in prophecy and searches the secrets of our hearts like the woman in John 4:29, who said, “He told me all things that ever I did”. That is the thing that she stresses in her testimony to the men.
Ques Do you think as having gone through this process there would be more bounty available?
JT That is the next thing. The subject begins in the first epistle, “Put by at home”, 1 Corinthians 16:2. You can understand that when a man is converted like this and [p. 80] he is a worshipper of God that he tells his wife and family and what happens? They are all converted. If we worship God we should bring all our material things to God, too, because they are included, they are needed for the service of God. In our verses it is said that the messengers carried this bounty. That is, Titus and others are “messengers of assemblies, Christ’s glory”, 2 Corinthians 8:23 There is a peculiar feature then about assembly giving that bears that character.
JT It seems to me that is how the giving of the saints will work out. Other things, of course, affect us, but the prophetic word ought to affect us. God has needs in the testimony for such as we have materially, and we should in a balanced way prepare for the collection as God has prospered us. That is the way to put it. Here the bounty was actually accumulated and passed through assembly hands, so that these messengers are messengers of assemblies and they are Christ’s glory.
HW This thought of glory is very beautiful coming in here. Is it the thought that the messengers are Christ’s glory or the assemblies?
JT I think the immediate reference is to the messengers, but of course, it involves the assemblies because they are messengers of the assemblies, but what a thought that a man travelling from Corinth, we will say, to Jerusalem, carrying this money is an expression of Christ’s glory. What an attractive thought that is.
HW Because it was an expression of what God is — the bounty of the saints.
JT Exactly.
EI Does the laying aside at home bring into view the family idea, that which is a support in relation to the assembly?
JT I would think so. Wife and children are [p. 81] brought into it. From my understanding of it it is a household matter, in the sense of budgeting.
Rem So that the matter of giving is always presented as on the basis of calculation and sobriety. Although the first day of the week is brought in to give the right sentiment to free us, there is no question of mere sentiment.
JT It is not a mere sentiment, but it is remarkable that it is brought in there. It is not brought in in relation to the Lord’s supper but it is brought in in relation to the giving.
Rem The laying up at home is in relation to how God has prospered you and what you give in relation to the assembly would be on the principle of calculation.
JT That is what is stated. A man comes in with his salary on Saturday and takes his wife into account and they talk about matters. They have their expenses to meet. It is a question of how the Lord has prospered him. It would be simple mathematics. But on Lord’s day morning he would discuss the matter again and say, We must be liberal, you know; this is the first day of the week; and the Lord was rich and He became poor for our sakes that we through His poverty might become rich, so that he would be apt to give a little more. Still the principle of mathematics or counting or weighing comes into it because it is according to the prospering, whether he has made more that week or not. He is supposed to know and give accordingly. Paul is very particular on that line, so that we should budget what we have to give. We know each other and know pretty well what we can do on the principle of counting, so that the budget is to be on that principle — we can do so much.
RST How would the question of present need bear upon our giving weekly? I mean, you were speaking of budgeting. Most of us do that locally.
[p. 82] Some months there is need for more than others. Do you think we take that into account in our giving?
JT There ought to be increase. The announcement of a need ought to bring out the excess. We should sacrifice a little more to meet it. Budgeting has that in mind. The need is to be met.
PD Would the thought of the first day of the week appeal to the affections of the saints and cause them to respond?
JT That is what I was thinking. A spiritual man would refer to that, how the Lord sacrificed everything, not only that He accomplished redemption, but He was continuous in His love. He sought out the loved ones and looked after them. That is the idea — you continue in the thing.
NBS The brother conveying the bounty was admitted to a very dignified service.
JT It is remarkable how Paul Himself had been used in it. It tells us in Romans and in Acts 11 that he himself and Barnabas and now Titus had been used in it. It is no ordinary matter. The glory of Christ is in it.