READINGS ON EZEKIEL (2)
[p. 23] READINGS ON EZEKIEL (2)
Ezekiel 4: 1 - 8; Ezekiel 5: 1 - 4; Ezekiel 6: 9,10; Ezekiel 8: 1 - 6
JT At our first reading in Ezekiel, we considered chapters 1 - 3, which deal mainly with the fitting of the prophet for his great service. Chapters 4 - 7 (particularly chapter 4) depict his initial service, into which personal suffering entered. Chapters 8 - 11, taken together, are a subdivision of a great section which extends to chapter 19. In our two readings today we should cover, in a general way, the teaching of chapters 4 - 11, inclusive, so that we can begin with chapter 12 next time.
The first subject to be considered is the sign which portrays a siege against Jerusalem: “And thou, son of man, take thee a brick, and lay it before thee, and portray upon it a city, — Jerusalem: and lay siege against it, and build forts against it, and cast a mound against it, and set camps against it, and place battering-rams against it round about. And take unto thee an iron plate, and put it for a wall of iron between thee and the city; and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it: this shall be a sign to the house of Israel”, Ezekiel 4: 1 - 3. This is the first solemn lesson in relation to an apostate condition of things; how God has laid siege against it; the prophet being used to represent the besieging power, from which there is no possible escape. The city is completely circumvented for destruction. Then the prophet himself endures suffering during two periods of three hundred and ninety days, and forty days, respectively.
Ques What is suggested in the character of the testimony rendered in Ezekiel? God is not as yet speaking directly to the people.
JT It is a testimony that is presented to them by signs. It was for the people, however. God finds a way of causing such testimony as He gives to reach those concerned in it.
[p. 24] Rem Later on, he speaks by word of mouth to the rebellious house; but here, the prophet himself is to be a sign.
JT That is the thought. It brings those who serve into the character of signs, for God employs signs; and He employs His people as signs. This book is very much marked by that; indeed, all the prophets are marked by it, more or less; and the Lord Jesus brings in the same idea Himself. The book of Revelation was written on this basis, for it is “signified”; that is, it is set out by signs; so that evidently those whom God uses should be ready to be employed in this way. The people later ask the prophet what he means by these things, and he tells them. Something which happens in the way of a sign from God would occasion inquiry, which gives opportunity to bring in the mind of God in detail. So that Ezekiel’s portrayal of the city would be that: the apostate condition of things was to be entirely circumvented. There was to be no escape; utter destruction is in mind. In like manner, the book of Revelation shows that utter destruction will fall upon the present apostate state of things.
Ques Would Mr. Darby’s writings apply here?
JT Well, his prophetic writings certainly help as to these signs, because they open up the truth. Prophetic ministry was a great feature of the recovery of the truth; not simply prophetic ministry in the sense that we have had it before us recently, as bringing to us the mind of God on current conditions, but opening up the detail of future events.
ANW Does this run on concurrently with preaching the glad tidings to the world?
JT I think it does. The book of Revelation helps in that regard. The Lord addressed Himself to the assemblies judicially, but His final word, addressed to Laodicea, is, “I ... have sat down with my Father in his throne” (Revelation 3: 21); meaning that whatever [p. 25] happens in the history of the assembly, the Lord retains His place on the throne of grace — the Father’s throne — and the gospel goes on accordingly.
It is important that we have the force of the word as to the siege clearly in our minds, first, that God is dealing with the apostate condition that exists, and will deal with it thoroughly. There is no possibility of escape. This sign shows that. It was a siege. The forts are built against it. Notice the word “against”. “Cast a mound against it, and set camps against it, and place battering-rams against it round about. And take thou unto thee an iron plate, and put it for a wall of iron between thee and the city” (it would be a protection for the besieging power); “and set thy face against it ... and thou shalt lay siege against it” (Ezekiel 4: 2, 3). It is very remarkable language, showing the thoroughness of the judgment that God announced. The system is to be completely destroyed.
JS Would the fact that Jehovah reverts to a sign indicate that the ears of the people had become dull of hearing; so that He would now show them something to reach their conscience through their eyes?
JT If people do not hear, they may see, in spite of themselves, and this extraordinary intervention did cause them to inquire what it meant, as we see later on. In view of the current thought in the world that there will be continual evolution to a perfect state of things, it is well to see that complete destruction is in the mind of God for the whole system. There is no possibility of escape! It is a very solemn matter, because we are in the midst of a state that is doomed, in this sense; so that Jeremiah, whose ministry corresponds to this testimony, was in the very midst of the city, and the gospel to those in it called upon them to go out from it. That is the gospel that Jeremiah preached. It was a very sorrowful service, for he had to announce the destruction of what he loved — the city of Jerusalem — and likewise with Ezekiel too, for the city is called [p. 26] an ornament (Ezekiel 7: 20). We shall see this reference as we pursue our subject.
So that is the position. It is, of course, a spiritual matter, and to be understood in a spiritual way, and the testimony concerning it is to be presented in a spiritual way; nevertheless, it is a fact; all pretension to the development of a better state of things in the future is simply fallacious. The whole system around us is doomed to unmitigated destruction.
AR In the addresses to the seven churches, a way of escape is offered for the overcomer in each one; whereas it says, great Babylon has fallen, as if the thing had already happened.
JT There is no escape for her; she is doomed. People are called upon to come out of her: “Come out of her, my people”, Revelation 18: 4. She represents the whole current moral system. The Lord says, “And I gave her time that she should repent, and she will not repent”, Revelation 2: 21.
AR Does the city of Jerusalem in our chapter in Ezekiel represent the whole professing system?
JT Yes; that is clearly how it would apply today.
RWS The people are not said to inquire here, but at least the prophet is sympathetic with God. Is he not particularly before us in the way of suffering?
JT That is what we shall see, particularly in the next chapter. There is one man who corresponds to Christ. God could portray in Ezekiel beforehand, the spirit and attitude of Christ in suffering, for it is a vicarious position that he takes on; not simply that he is suffering from the hands of man. He is suffering under divine direction, and typically, in a vicarious way, that is, for others.
CAM It is a great privilege to be among those who stand for God. Those men are signs in themselves. Jonah, for instance, or Joshua, standing before the angel, and so too with Ezekiel.
JT [p. 27] Quite so; each one is to be concerned as to himself, as to how far he is a sign. The Lord says through Isaiah, in spirit, “Behold, I and the children that Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel” (Isaiah 8: 18); not only are the prophets signs, but the children also.
AFM Was Ezekiel, in this position, suffering in his own person as with bands upon him, three hundred and ninety days, and forty days, protected by the iron plate for a wall, until the end of the siege?
JT Yes; the iron plate in verse 3 would signify protection for the besiegers against counter-attacks. If we are for God in ministering the truth, we shall be attacked. “Take thou unto thee an iron plate, and put it for a wall of iron between thee and the city” Ezekiel 4: 3. That would be protection for him, enabling him to carry on his definite attitude of attack. “Set thy face against it, ... and thou shalt lay siege against it”. Thus the besieger is protected and continues his attack.
Ques Would the materials symbolise the condition? Brick is a substance that can be broken in upon. The iron plate would probably represent impregnability?
JT Yes; it is said to be “a wall of iron” Ezekiel 4: 3. The other would be the condition of the city, I suppose; and the battering-rams being amongst the besiegers’ equipment would be very powerful against walls of brick. We are protected by the iron plate so that our eyes may continue on in the right direction. “Set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it” Ezekiel 4: 3; so that the besiegers are protected, and their faces are set in the right direction. We do not turn away from any. The lion is said to be marked by that; he “turneth not away for any”, Proverbs 30: 30. You set your face in that direction and maintain that attitude.
AR Do the first three verses represent God’s judgment relative to the city, in order to bring us into correspondence with His judgment? “For God has judged your judgment upon her”, Revelation 18: 20. Does it bring in sympathy in that sense?
JT Thus we come out with Christ finally in the armies of heaven. We have learned to set our faces against the apostate system. We do not turn aside.
Rem In Zechariah, reference is made to the wall around Jerusalem in a symbolic way. It is a protection of this kind, is it not? It says, “and I, saith Jehovah, I will be unto her a wall of fire round about” (Zechariah 2: 5). That, of course, speaks of Jerusalem in a favourable position.
JT That is right; and she is protected by mountains. “Jerusalem! — mountains are round about her, and Jehovah is round about his people”, Psalm 125: 2. Here, the position is that of attacking, and you may be sure that there will be a counter-attack. How to meet that is in mind, so that your face is kept in the right direction.
CN Will you say a little more about how this siege would apply today?
JT It is a very striking picture. You have a besieger’s complete equipment, so that victory is assured, and the person who is besieging has his face in the right direction unalterably. We do not turn aside. The wall of iron is to protect you. It is a sort of armour, so that you are kept looking on as a true warrior, in the right direction.
CN Did I understand you to say that the gospel would apply, in any sense?
JT No doubt it does. The gospel goes on concurrently with what would correspond with this siege today. We were remarking that the book of Revelation opens with the Lord speaking to the assemblies; and to the last one He says that He is about to spue it out of His mouth: the setting aside of the whole public christian profession is intimated, which implies what we have been speaking about; the attack on the whole system. In the meantime, Christ is on His Father’s [p. 29] throne, and therefore the continuation of the testimony of grace goes on. But still, there is this city — this system of apostasy — that is now developing rapidly. It is all heading up; so the attack would be of a moral kind, for the moment. It would be in testimony, and that is what God is doing and has been doing for many years — bringing out His thoughts as to His system of things — which really is what is most effective in pulling down what man has built up. There is also in the ministry an exposure of the apostasy.
AC If Ezekiel was so secured and protected against the forces of evil, would it not serve as an encouragement and incentive to the people of God today?
JT Well, you can understand how impregnable the position is as seen here; there is no letting up of the attack: “and thou shalt lay siege against it” Ezekiel 4: 3. The thing goes on. And then, “This shall be a sign to the house of Israel” Ezekiel 4: 3. There is a testimony in it.
JS And would the fact that the city is being besieged show the severity of the judgment of God, for it would compel those besieged to pass through a period of great privation? It is not simply being laid waste, but being besieged in this manner.
JT That is right; there is nothing more harrowing or distressing than a siege rightly pressed. And the picture here supposes complete besieging equipment, so that there is no possible escape for those besieged.
Ques And is there an object lesson in this for us? Should we be prepared to besiege what is apostate today; and, on the other hand, to take on the feelings of those who are in the midst of it in a priestly way?
JT Quite so; it is worthy of note that while the siege is going on, the testimony of grace is going on, too — the testimony of vicarious atonement — one (Ezekiel) typically bearing the sin. “And thou, lie upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: the number of the days that thou liest [p. 30] upon it, thou shalt bear their iniquity. And I have appointed thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days; and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, thou shalt lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year” (Ezekiel 4: 4 - 6). So that it would look as if the second sign in the chapter is one of grace; how God, while proposing to destroy the apostate state of things, has yet a foundation on which He will introduce another state of things; another world, you might say. So that it is very touching to see how God, beforehand, portrayed Christ in Ezekiel, in causing him to lie those three hundred and ninety days on his left side, and forty days on his right side. It is a very remarkable sign.
CAM So that there would seem to be two things that would work for the blessing of the world around: the starvation condition of things that you get with the siege, and the sufferings and spirit of Christ in grace. Is that the thought?
JT Yes. There does not seem to be any suffering for the prophet in the portraying of the siege; but in what suggests vicarious sufferings and atonement, there is suffering. He suffers beyond mere human endurance, I apprehend; for really no human strength could go through this. It could only be gone through in the power of God.
ANW So the apostle says, “I have wished, I myself, to be a curse from the Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to flesh; who are Israelites”, Romans 9: 3.
JT And Moses, too, wishing to be blotted out. It is that same spirit, but here it is a superhuman experience. No one, I am sure, in mere natural strength, could endure this; being bound down with bands for three hundred and ninety days on one side and forty [p. 31] days on the other. He was not to turn from one side to the other.
JS Have we here the vicarious sufferings of Christ portrayed?
JT That is what I understand. It is a very important thing, that God’s testimony to man is not only of judgment. Whilst God has judgment in mind for the apostate system, He has His own purposes in mind, too.
CAM When Stephen so beautifully portrayed the suffering side, he also went into all the history of the apostate nation. Saul of Tarsus must have seen in him a wonderful portrayal of this in the spirit of it!
JT Quite so; Stephen’s sufferings were not vicarious; yet it was the spirit of Christ suffering in him; so that he was like Christ in his suffering — kneeling down and praying for his murderers. Whether the portrayal is before the atoning sufferings of Christ, or after, it is the same thing. Paul said “to whom, as before your very eyes, Jesus Christ has been portrayed, crucified among you”, Galatians 3: 1. That must have been in himself; he portrayed Christ crucified among the Galatians.
Ques Would the three hundred and ninety days go back to the time that they departed from God, rather than to the time they went into captivity?
JT The forty days would allude to Solomon’s reign. It would allude particularly to Judah, and the choice part of the history of Israel. The three hundred and ninety days would be Israel, including Judah later; meaning that there is a sinful condition to be dealt with in the very best and brightest days of Israel, as well as the darkest. That is a very solemn suggestion.
CB How do christians press the siege today? Is it done by heeding Paul’s word to Timothy: “The Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity”, 2 Timothy 2: [p. 32] 19?
JT Well, that would be a testimony to it negatively, but then there is the wonderful ministry that God has given to those who have departed from iniquity; the Collected Writings, for instance, and what the Lord has given since. There is the positive side in the ministry, as well as the negative side in withdrawing.
Ques And would you say that the feelings expressed in withdrawing from iniquity in the assembly should be of this character?
JT I think so; you are judging that which you are leaving, and that means that God presently will judge it.
Rem We really take upon ourselves, as judging it, the occasion of the siege.
AR Would you say that the Lord’s service in Matthew’s gospel was, in principle, a siege against Jerusalem? He operated outside of Jerusalem, according to Matthew.
JT Yes. His ministry in the synoptic gospels was mainly outside of Jerusalem. John gives us more in Jerusalem than the others, but He operated outside of it; and His ministry invariably pointed to the destruction of the current system, and when He drew near to Jerusalem, He formally stated that her enemies would come and build a palisaded mound against her; “these are days of avenging”, Luke 21: 22. But then He was about to die in the midst of it, as Ezekiel was here, in type; so that the besieging was really in the ministry of Christ. The atoning sufferings typified in chapter 4 of Ezekiel were also fulfilled in Him.
RWS Is this extended time compressed in the three hours of forsaking on the cross which the Lord Jesus went through?
JT That is the idea, I think; the atoning sufferings were there as well as the testimony to the siege. The Lord could say, “for if these things are done in the green tree, what shall take place in the dry?” Luke 23: 31. That was the testimony to the siege; the destruction of [p. 33] the city.
JS So that the food supply would have been entirely cut off from the religious leaders of the city, according to Matthew: “Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11: 25).
JT Just so. It is remarkable how Matthew exposes the religious system at Jerusalem, and shows the Lord preaching to the city, and indicating its doom; but He was also going to die in it.
Ques What would you say about the bands: “I lay bands upon thee, and thou shalt not turn thyself from one side to the other” (Ezekiel 4: 8)?
JT It was really the finality of death, setting forth how the Lord Jesus was held in death, as we have often remarked — the bands of death were there — real death; the grave was real to Him. So that the “bands” accentuate the type.
CN It says of Ezekiel, chapter 4: 7, “thine arm shall be uncovered, and thou shalt prophesy against it” Ezekiel 4: 7.
JT That would refer to the time when the days were completed; his arm would be uncovered. I suppose that would be a sign of release, like the resurrection. There is testimony after Christ rises from the dead. And then, the besieging would mean that there would be a scarcity of food in the city, but Ezekiel, in going through these sufferings, has food, and a variety of it; but measured food. It says, “thou, take unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentils, and millet, and spelt, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou liest upon thy side: three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof. And thy meat which thou shalt eat shall be by weight, twenty shekels a day: from time to time shalt thou eat it. And thou shalt drink water by measure, the sixth part of a hin: from time to time shalt thou drink” (Ezekiel 4: 9 - 11). It is very instructive, I think, to consider what typifies Christ as going through the atoning sufferings; how the thought of [p. 34] food is introduced; a variety of food is under Ezekiel’s hand, yet everything according to measure. It is not for enjoyment; just enough to sustain life. No doubt there is allusion to siege conditions, but the reference to food goes further.
AFM But was not the food distasteful to the prophet?
JT It was, in the sense of what he had to prepare it with; that is, I think, the awful feelings the Lord had to endure as bearing our sins in His own body on the tree. It represents what He felt when He was made sin. Think of the feelings that arose in connection with Ezekiel taking this food and preparing it with dung; but at the same time there was food, and a variety of it; not animal food, but vegetable food, and water. The point in it, I think, is that He does not succumb. The allusion would be to the power there was in Christ. He was able to cry with a loud voice twice while on the cross.
Ques And was He able to rise in the same power?
JT Yes; but what is stressed is the endurance, going through the unspeakable ordeal; as He was forsaken He cried with a loud voice, and as He was about to die, He cried again with a loud voice; that is, His strength as a Man was maintained. He did not succumb to the terrible pressure; He rose again from the dead. He rose of Himself, although His resurrection is generally presented as by the power of God.
CAM Do you think the food would refer in any way to the effect that the awful atmosphere and happenings of Calvary had on others, such as the thief and the centurion? The “dung” was the fuel used for baking, I understand.
JT But it would enter into the food, whatever it was. That is the way you have to look at it, as part of the food; whether it was for fuel for baking or preparation; it was there! Verse 14 shows this. It was mitigated on Ezekiel’s complaint, but not in the antitype. The [p. 35] prophet having to do in this way with what came out of man is a suggestion of what Christ dealt with on the cross and what He had to terminate judicially, for He was made sin.
AFM During the whole period of suffering that the prophet passed through, was there not an activity of a constant kind, whether prophesying or enduring the trial as being bound? The bands were laid upon him. It seemed to be an experience which designated that he was going through some deep exercise through the whole period, from beginning to end.
JT It has been remarked that time is condensed; on the cross the condensation was infinite. There were three hours of darkness. He was actually on the cross longer; nevertheless the three hours of darkness and the three days and three nights in the heart of the earth would all be real, but how much was compressed into it! In a divine Person, compression may be infinite, as is suggested in the size of the ark of the covenant.
CAM I suppose it must have been infinite in the case of Christ because the cross involved all the eternal darkness of the judgment of the lost.
JT It was dealing with the judgment of God, and who could measure that? Only He could do it!
Ques Do you think His consciousness would have entered into the grave? I would like to know how the thought of His death, burial, and resurrection, and what entered into that, would connect with His words, “I lay down my life that I may take it again” John 10: 17. Just where does His consciousness come into His death and burial?
JT It is not easy to say much about consciousness in the grave; but we read of the pains of death, which were loosed. In this as always we have to think and speak according to the language of Scripture. He says to the thief, “To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise”, Luke 23: 43. His death in that way is like that of believers; He departed from the body for the moment.
But, “Come, see the place where the Lord lay”, Matthew 28: 6. He was there, and in coming in and taking His body in resurrection, of course, there was that feeling, however brief. Death was there, and it was felt by Him: the pains of death were loosed. It was not possible that He should be held by death’s power; the allusion to the pains of death is very solemn and touching; they were real pains.
JS So that we must go to various scriptures in the Old Testament to see what He went through in those three days and three nights?
JT Yes; the thought of burial attaches to the atonement. The apostle said, “I delivered to you ... that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures”, 1 Corinthians 15: 3, 4. All that is included in the thought of atonement.
AR Would entering into death and rising the third day be for the breaking of the power of death?
JT Yes; the three days would mean the actuality of the Lord’s death. How actual it was, and prolonged! He tasted death; it was a real thing; not only on the cross, but in the grave.
CAM As I understand it, the expression “pains” used by Peter, that you alluded to, is the pain that brings life into the world.
JT Quite so; that would be Himself coming into resurrection.
Ques You connect the three hours of darkness with the abandonment?
JT Quite so; it was a period of realisation of God’s abandonment of Him; so that He really endured the full weight of divine wrath. The first cry with a loud voice, I have thought, is that He had exhausted the judgment of God; and the second, I think, is that He was terminating the man that caused all the dishonour and sorrow. I believe that is the significance of the two [p. 37] cries.
AR And would you also say that He terminated all that is religious in a pretentious way against God?
JT Exactly; all was involved in that.
Ques At what point does the abandonment cease and God enter into the matter again?
JT Well, of course, there is nothing said as to God’s intervention until He raised Him from the dead; that is, the idea of atonement runs through. The Lord would not be in death for an instant, were it not that He was suffering vicariously. You could not apply death to Him personally, except in a vicarious sense. It would be derogatory to connect death with Him for the smallest possible space of time, save in a vicarious sense.
ANW Would you care to distinguish, as a matter of time, His bearing sins, and His being made sin, or are they entirely concurrent?
JT I think they are concurrent. He actually took on man’s condition, and no doubt that is what is alluded to in Ezekiel, in the reference to what came from man. It refers to what His experience was in being made sin; how awful it was to Him! He did not ask for any mitigation of it. Ezekiel did, and got it; but Christ did not. He experienced the thing in being made sin. So I suppose the final cry would be the termination of that; although man had to go into the grave, as well. The first penalty included, “For dust thou art; and unto dust shalt thou return”, Genesis 3: 19. So that the Lord had to go into the grave and enter into the full extent of God’s judgment on man. It is important to keep the grave in mind as part of the vicarious sufferings of Christ in connection with the judgment of God.
AFM At what time were the sufferings completed? The Lord said, “It is finished” John 19: 30. But then He went into the grave, and He was there three days and three nights; would that [p. 38] be vicarious?
JT It was; it would be negative or passive on His part, but still it was part of the whole thing. The three days and three nights had to do with atonement.
JS Do we not have to see what is positive in regard to the overthrowing of the powers of evil — death and hades; so that He is seen coming out as having the keys of death and hades?
JT Implying administrative power as to them. I believe this type is to impress upon us how real the Lord’s death and burial were as atoning suffering.
GMacP What would be in the mind of the Spirit of God giving this detailed testimony to the death of Christ before it came to pass?
JT From the very beginning of Scripture we have testimony to it, but here we have a remarkable testimony in the sense of this sign; a man lying on his side three hundred and ninety days and forty days. What a remarkable thing that a man should experience this in testimony long before the Lord Jesus died!
Rem And there was no release from this, the prophet not turning until the periods were completed. We sometimes try to swerve out of difficulties, but Ezekiel was, as it were, bound in it.
WB-w Will you say something about the barley-cake in verse 12? Does that connect with the second cry, in that it was baked with what comes out of man?
JT Well, I suppose so. The barley was the first-fruits of the cereals. The variety of vegetables mentioned here is striking, and the measurements are instructive, too. It is no question of feasting, but enough to sustain life; it suggests what the Lord Jesus went through as Man, having divine power, but nevertheless a Man going through and bearing this awful load, and coming out of it as Man.
RWS He refused the draught given Him which might tend to stupefy the sensibilities.
JT That is right; He retained Man’s sensibilities right through, so that the last cry is Man’s cry. He is [p. 39] laying down His life, but He has power. No creature can do that because there is positive weakness with us as one is about to die.
JS What do you have in mind in respect of variety?
JT I think it is the deliberateness that was seen in Christ as Man; He was never overcome by circumstances, no matter how varied. The deliberateness with which Ezekiel was to draw on this variety of vegetable food is suggestive. The remnant will go through all this too, only in a limited way.
AR And would you say that the four hundred and thirty days represent not only the history of man, but of the apostate system and its failure before God?
JT Yes; and how the Lord felt things; how He went through Israel’s history as working out atonement. The whole history would be in His mind. Think of the sins! How they were all counted! As we contemplate the deliberateness with which Christ faced the question of atonement in Gethsemane, it becomes food for us; how deliberate He was about everything, but feeling things profoundly; yet He was never overwhelmed. He was deliberate and His senses were always with Him. Even on the cross, He refused, as has been remarked, to take the vinegar, having tasted it. He retained His taste and power of discrimination to refuse what might be an opiate to Him. Although a divine Person, He is a real Man going through all these sufferings.
JS Showing the greatness of the Man!
JT I think it should bring Him before us as food, because in pressure we are so apt to be irritated, like Moses, and be flustered and not know what to say, like Peter on the mountain. The Lord was never anything but Himself.
Ques I want to ask about the blood of the bullock in Leviticus 16, being taken in and put on the mercy-seat, by the priest. What does that place refer to?
JT The mercy-seat was under the eyes of the cherubim, but it was the mercy-seat. It denoted mercy.
[p. 40] The blood was sprinkled on the mercy-seat and then seven times before it, meaning I suppose, that there was testimony under the eye of God as to the atoning death of Christ, so that He could look out on the sinner as He does in Chronicles, where the cherubim looked toward man. Jehovah looked out; He could look out on man in grace, being satisfied or appeased with the blood.
Ques Does the mercy-seat represent heaven? Is it before God as to position?
JT Well, you could not say it was in heaven. It was here on earth.
Ques But where was the blood taken in?
JT Well, the idea of place is moral. There are some who say the blood was taken into heaven, but that is forcing Scripture. It all happened, as from Jesus as dead, “immediately there came out blood and water”, John 19: 34. God saw it; “and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin”, 1 John 1: 7.
JS So that in Romans 3, the Person is the mercy-seat.
JT Just so; it is Christ risen. “Whom God has set forth a mercy-seat” (Romans 3: 25). That is the idea, so that we must dismiss the literal thought of place. It is what He is before God, in resurrection. But atonement was effected on earth.
CAM As the blood was taken in, so the body was burnt in its entirety outside the camp; so that it must be looked at in a moral way.
JT Quite so; all the victims, whose blood was taken inside, were burned outside the camp.
JS God making such provision for the sinner’s approach?
JT Quite so; and so Romans 3 is the opening up of it for the believer.
AR What did you have in mind to say about Ezekiel [p. 41] 5?
JT These three chapters, 5, 6, and 7, denote the actual carrying out of the judgment. One is struck, in reading them, with the finality - the completeness — of the judgment. Chapter 7 says: “And the word of Jehovah came unto me, saying, And thou, son of man, thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto the land of Israel: An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land”. Ezekiel 7: 2. It is a complete matter, and the whole position is in mind; none are exempt. It is the land now. “Now is the end upon thee: and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will bring upon thee all thine abominations. And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity; but I will bring thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am Jehovah. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: An evil, an only evil! behold, it is come. The end is come; the end is come”; (note the repetitions); “it awaketh against thee: behold, it cometh. The doom is come unto thee, inhabitant of the land; the time is come, the day is near, — tumult, and not the joyous cry from the mountains. Now will I soon pour out my fury upon thee, and accomplish mine anger against thee; and I will judge thee according to thy ways, and will bring upon thee all thine abominations. And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity ... and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that it is I, Jehovah, that smite” (Ezekiel 7: 3 - 9).
It is the description of the unmitigated judgment on the land — the whole position. And chapter 5 begins this matter with the figure of a razor being used to shave off the hair and the beard, and the hairs are to undergo a peculiar process. It says in chapter 5: “And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife; a barber’s razor shalt thou take; and cause it to pass upon thy head and upon thy beard: and thou shalt take balances to weigh, and divide the hair. A third part shalt thou burn in the fire in the midst of the city, when the days [p. 42] of the siege are fulfilled; and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife; and a third part thou shalt scatter to the wind, and I will draw out a sword after them. And thou shalt take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts; and thou shalt take of these again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire: from it shalt a fire come forth against all the house of Israel” (Ezekiel 5: 1 - 4).
This is the initial thought of these three chapters; the process Jerusalem is to undergo. But, finally, some are taken in the skirts of the prophet; and then we have the pronoun “it” in verse 4, “from it shall a fire come forth against all the house of Israel” Ezekiel 5: 4. It would seem that as a result of that process there is something with which God can again begin to operate; so that we have in chapter 6, “And they that escape of you shall remember me among the nations whither they have been carried captives, when I shall have broken their whorish heart, which hath departed from me, and their eyes, which go a whoring after their idols; and they shall loathe themselves for the evils which they have committed, in all their abominations. And they shall know that I am Jehovah: I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them” (Ezekiel 5: 9, 10). So that I think we see a remnant now, owned first in the hairs that were taken into the prophet’s garment (which would suggest personal identification with them), and taken on in a peculiar way, yet suffering; but a fire comes out in that connection, as if God now has a new starting point.
AR They are with God now in His governmental dealings against the city.
JT It is the idea of a remnant; God begins to operate again in that connection.
Ques Why is the hair divided into three parts?
JT Well, I think it is to bring out testimony to the prolonged process of judgment, and yet a definite end is to be reached in a [p. 43] remnant In Zechariah 13: 8,9, the people are divided into three parts also; “two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried”.
JT That passage helps as to what is meant here. It is more definite as to the remnant; they are tried as gold is tried.
Rem The word here seems to have a future bearing. The people are to be reduced to a very small number.
JT Quite so; and note the process of reduction, it implies ornamentation being taken away; the shaving of the head and the beard, which to the Jew would be the loss of ornamentation in personal appearance. All that is negative. In this process one loses all caste or standing, whatever it may be, and starts over again; you have to take on new ornamentation.
Rem Does it not refer to that in chapter 7, “And he set in majesty his beautiful ornament; but they made therein the images of their abominations and of their detestable things” (Ezekiel 7: 20).
JT That helps as to the word “ornament” We shall see it later in connection with the death of Ezekiel’s wife, suggestive of what Jerusalem was. Apparently this shaving process means that any of us who have part in that which imparts natural distinction, are to be shorn of that sort of ornament, to be prepared for another; so that when we come to chapter 8, the hair is again referred to, but in another aspect; it represents power now. It is not ornamentation now; it denotes the power of life operative; hence there is strength in it — Ezekiel was lifted up by it.
Rem Even when a remnant is procured, it seems as if God is not entirely satisfied, for the hair is first put in the skirts, and some of these are put into the [p. 44] fire, as if they are the ones to be more thoroughly disciplined.
JT One is impressed with the history of the people of God in the Old Testament; God’s extraordinary dealings with them as subjected to continual sufferings, one after another, covering an immense period; and what can it be but that they represent what we all are, only they are taken on as an example, in order that God may show how incorrigible the flesh is, and how patient He is — in reaching His end in us notwithstanding. If He is to reach His thought in any of us, what a process He has to go through so as to reach, in a small way, what He has in His mind.
Rem Even though the Jewish people superabound in wealth today “their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s wrath; they shall not satisfy their souls, neither fill their belly; for it hath been the stumbling-block of their iniquity” (Ezekiel 7: 19).
JT It is very remarkable; even the idea of buying and selling is to be abandoned. Their great characteristic is their aptitude for commerce, but this suffering implies that it all goes for nothing.
WB-w Do you think the climax of the abominations in this section would be seen in the image of jealousy and sun worship in chapter 8?
JT Yes; but then, in regard to the terrible judgment of chapter 7, as though the commercial ability of the Jew were in mind, it says, “The time is come, the day draweth near: let not the buyer rejoice, nor the seller mourn; for fierce anger is upon all the multitude thereof. For the seller shall not return to that which is sold, even though he were yet alive amongst the living: for the vision is touching the whole multitude thereof; it shall not be revoked; and none shall through his iniquity assure his life” (Ezekiel 7: 12, 13). The allusion is to mercantile pursuits, which so characterise that people,
[p. 45] and of course these features come out in all of us. The feature is seen here as withering away; it is nothing.
Ques Do you think that the expression, “none shall through his iniquity assure his life” would include the thought of unions in the commercial world?
JT Quite so; they set forth the idea of iniquity assuring your life, but the saints cannot do things on those lines, for it is iniquity, as has often been pointed out. Trade unions involve iniquitous associations and murder.
Rem The purpose in the back of one’s mind in connecting with a trade union would be to “assure” things.
JT Quite so; so you can see that the judgment in chapter 7 is a complete breaking up of that sort of thing, including commerce.
CAM No traffic or trafficker is allowed in God’s house. It would seem to preclude any feeling that there is self gain in these holy things.
JT Quite so. Now, in regard to chapter 8, it says in verses 3 and 4, “And he stretched forth the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my head; and the Spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heavens, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entry of the inner gate that looketh toward the north, where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the appearance that I saw in the valley” Ezekiel 8: 3,4. It seems to me that this links on with what we have had before us. The hair in chapter 5 is ornamentation, but the person is shorn of it with a razor, and a terrible process of discipline is seen in what follows there, but now we have the hair on the head and strong enough to be used to hold the man up.
AFM It is referred to as a “lock”.
JT Quite so. The strength of Samson’s seven locks is seen in Judges 16:13, 14. I believe Samson,
[p. 46] as a type, instructs us as to what hair means. It is the testimony to the power of life in a person. Samson’s hair began to grow and that is where the power lay for his final victory. So here: “He stretched forth the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my head; and the Spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heavens” Ezekiel 8: 3. It would seem to suggest the power of resurrection. There would be the idea of power in the person: he says, “a lock of my head”. We have hair frequently alluded to in Scripture and especially in Samson — seven locks shaven off by Delilah — but Scripture does not say it grew afterwards as a lock, it is simply, “the hair of his head began to grow” Judges 16: 22. But here it is a lock, and the hand holds Ezekiel by it. It says, “the Spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heavens” (as if it is not only resurrection but ascension), “and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the entry of the inner gate that looketh toward the north, where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. And behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the appearance that I saw in the valley” (Ezekiel 8: 3, 4); that is, God is in the valley, but now in relation to resurrection. It seems to be what God is in relation to death, as having effected resurrection, It is divine power viewed thus that is seen in the following chapters.
CH Would that power be suggested in “for if indeed he has been crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God’s power”, 2 Corinthians 13: 4?
JT Yes. The testimony of Ezekiel was really the Spirit of Christ speaking in him. Christ was crucified in weakness, but He lives by God’s power; but then the apostle goes on to say, “for indeed we are weak in him, but we shall live with him by God’s power towards you”, 2 Corinthians 13: 4. His ministry was in the power of resurrection.