THE PRESIDENCY OF CHRIST OVER HIS SERVANTS
[p. 358] THE PRESIDENCY OF CHRIST OVER HIS SERVANTS
Mark 3: 13 - 15; John 16: 13 - 15; 1 Samuel 19: 19, 20
JT What is in mind is to show that ministers of Christ and the ministry are intended to be always under His presidency, first in their selection, the circumstances under which they are selected, and that they are selected in relation to one another, then that the Spirit as here not only teaches directly — as we are told in John 14 and in John’s epistles — but that He guides us, as in our meetings, into all the truth; and in the prophetic ministry, which is so stressed now, there is the idea of special appointment over us in it, the word ‘president’ being used, it is said, “They saw a company of prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as president over them”. These are the features of the truth which are in mind, so that we may perhaps first consider the appointment of the ministers, viewed, of course, in our scripture in Mark, as the twelve apostles. The facts stated are surely intended to govern us in regard of this side of the truth.
WC Would the thought of being “with him” be pre-eminently for training?
JT That is what I thought. The position first, up the mountain, and then the call, “whom he himself would”; then “that they might be with him, and that he might send them to preach”. It is clear that the number twelve is in mind, and that we are chosen in relation to one another, and, as chosen, to be with the Lord — “He appointed twelve that they might be with him”.
Rem The Lord’s call to Simon and Andrew in chapter 1 was, “Come after me, and I will make you become fishers of men” — they were included in the [p. 359] twelve. Would you say a word as to the difference between the two callings?
JT The first one would be preliminary, I should think, their preliminary call out of their ordinary vocations — a matter, of course, that enters into what is before us, what our several vocations may be, whether we are ready to make Christ’s service first, or whether it may be just a sideline while we go on with our ordinary affairs. I think the verses would mean that Christ is influential enough in His first approach to move them, bringing out the kind of material that He was selecting. Chapter 3 would show, I think, they had been with Him a certain time, they are now to be chosen in relation to one another on the elevation of the mountain and in order to be with Him, I would assume, together. So that in the ministry there is no independency of thought. I think the verses read in chapter 3 contain a great principle: we may have been chosen in different countries or at different times even, but this great principle must dominate all the service and every servant, namely, that we are called in relation to each other.
PL Like the levites set round the tabernacle. If we take up Numbers, the ministers are viewed as the family, are they not?
JT The family thought enters into the relation of servants one to another. The levites were a family subdivided into three; in Joshua they are heavenly and the custodians of the grace of heaven in relation to cities of refuge, so that the clerical idea is wholly excluded. If we bring in the levitical side, it is a family and from the standpoint of training, we are called in relation to one another, called by the word of Christ — “whom he himself would” — but in relation to one another. It seems obvious that the idea is that the twelve might be with Him that He might send them out, so that each would know the [p. 360] others and would bear in mind their several capacities and measures. The Lord, in His intercourse with them, would undoubtedly delegate certain things to them and all should know. As to selection, He selected three, on two occasions at least, to be with Him for a special reason — the others would know that.
AJG What is there in the thought that the three whom the Lord so often selected are surnamed in this passage?
JT Just what I am saying I think; they would be distinct, there is distinction amongst the servants.
What would you say yourself?
AJG Yes. There would be some spiritual significance, I suppose, in the surname, would there not?
JT A surname is evidently a distinction. They learnt to surname people themselves, too, as in the case of Barnabas.
HH They were chosen, as you say; there would be no independency.
JT I thought that is an important matter that each stands in relation to his own Master, yet it is evident the Lord would have co-operation amongst His servants.
Ques Is it relevant that in Ephesians 4, before we have the gifts, there is the statement that there is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all”? Is it important that should come in before we have the gifts from the ascended Christ?
JT That is good, a great basis of unity. First the state of soul — “With all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, bearing with one another in love”.
Then there is, “Using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace”. Then the three circles of unity — one body and one Spirit and one hope of our calling, “one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all”. Surely that is a [p. 361] great over-reaching thought, in everything, in every relation in which the saints are, for the passage goes on to say that “to each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ”, and then we have the specific gifts, all to the end of the work of the ministry. So that it seems the principle of unity and co-operation enters into our service and preserves from independency, not only of service, but of thought.
The next passage we read, in John, would seem to bring out the presidency, as I may say, of the Spirit, for in truth the thought is there, the word ‘Comforter’ would carry it, One who is in charge of us, and the idea is that He guides us into all the truth. So that in our services together, as we are now, the Spirit is here and would take charge of all that is said; the sense of His presence and function, I think, would in itself promote unity, the desire to have the truth. He guides, it says, “When he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth”. A very important word, I think — all the truth — and very encouraging. It is a word of great hopefulness as to the truth, that even difficult problems may be solved in the Spirit, the recognition of the Comforter and each recognising what another says, the Spirit would give an ultimate setting to all and make it the truth, for He is the Spirit of truth. It is a remarkable designation, the Spirit of truth, not only what is said, but the spirit in which things are said.
WC In the passage quoted in Ephesians it speaks of “holding the truth in love”, would that, marking the saints as a whole, provide a kind of atmosphere in which the truth would open up through the Spirit’s guidance?
JT I think that is right; you are not concerned as to special things so much, but as to the truth.
Rem You mean we need one another in order to arrive at the truth in [p. 362] that way.
JT I am sure that is true. The temple necessarily enters into it, but especially where there are those who are fitted to teach, who are instructed as together; the Spirit guides us so that we reach the truth. I think we have proved that. Not simply what one says but what one and another say, it is the Spirit that makes the thing, He guides us into all the truth. There is no need of our leaving anything as something unknown; we wait on the Lord, and the Spirit will, perhaps at an unexpected time, bring out something that clarifies the matter.
Rem Would not that point to the need of our being amenable as together to receive what the Lord may give by the Spirit?
JT Quite so.
HH Then He does not speak as from Himself; He is not — if one may be allowed to say it — independent.
JT That is another great fact that enters into this. The Lord Himself, in John’s gospel, takes the ground of being taught — a marvellous and affecting thing, but one of the great features of John’s gospel. The more spiritual the atmosphere is — and the gospel contemplates a spiritual state of things — the more we shall appreciate and look in the face the wonderful down-stooping of Christ, taking the place even of being taught of His Father. So John would cause everything, whether work or teaching or whatever it be, to emanate from the Father, coming down mediately through Christ and through the apostles and one and another, acting on the principle that the Spirit does not speak from Himself, but whatsoever He hears that He speaks. And then it goes on to say, “He will announce to you what is coming”; the whole coming vista is opened up to us, so that we understand and see the end from the beginning.
Rem Does Mark 6 help in this? It says He sent [p. 363] them out two by two, and then gave them power — He did not give them power before.
JT I think that is right. We have power, it may be, but I suppose the real truth is we get the power as we need it; in ministry you get it as you need it. It is in us, of course, in principle, in the Spirit, but it comes as we need it; the Spirit gives us in that hour what to speak.
Ques Do we get the thought of the prophetic word coming in here and showing us things to come?
JT I suppose it had more force with the twelve than it would with us. Things to come are pretty well written down for us in the Lord’s discourses recorded in the synoptic gospels; and the book of Revelation, I suppose, may be taken to embody all this side of it, “Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John, who testified the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, all things that he saw”. I suppose it would really, in the main, involve the opening up of the Apocalypse, the whole prophetic testimony, of course, of the Old Testament entering into it, too, “the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus”, it is the opening up of the thing, the showing of the thing, I think, that we might look for.
HB In regard of the guiding into all the truth, would it take account of the several capacities of the saints, and also of the work of God as necessary in view of entering into the truth?
JT I think it takes account of what there may be at any given time. The more spirituality there is in any given company of saints, the more it will be opened up to us; the more gift, of course, the more ability, but spirituality in the saints as a whole has a great deal to do with the opening up of the truth.
Ques Does the Ephesian setting indicate that?
Paul says, “I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God”.
JT It is all declared; there was no showing of things after that. The apostle, I believe, had to go through much himself to fit him to bring out all that was in the mind of God; the general range was opened up in the ministry at Ephesus, but there is much to be shown. These epistles from prison contain the greatest depths of spiritual vision, I think.
WC “I have yet many things to say to you, but ye cannot bear them now” (John 16: 12); does that indicate the need of state in the saints for the Lord to be free to open things up?
JT It does. You find the state of the brethren has a great deal to do with the opening up of the truth. So that the apostle had to go through much; I believe his years of imprisonment were intended to fit him for the Spirit to open up things more fully and in more detail with more power of application, as we get in the epistle to the Ephesians, for instance. He tells the Corinthians, “the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God”; but then the condition at Corinth hindered the apostle from opening things up to them, and that is always true where there is a low state of soul. Powerful gift may move on, as Paul did at Ephesus, and open up things objectively for the understanding, but searching the depths requires, I think, a certain state in the saints.
Ques Do you mean that much depends on the place the saints give the servants through whom the Lord or the Spirit are speaking?
JT That enters into it, too; but whether the saints are lovers of the truth, not simply wanting to hear a certain brother, but wanting the truth. You may know beforehand that the Lord uses a certain brother and is likely to use him to give you something, but the question is, Do I love the truth? The temple exists, and if there are lovers of Christ listening,
the truth will come out — “As they were listening”, it says, “... he added and spake a parable”, Luke 19: 11. It is largely a question of the state of the saints.
Ques Is there a difference between being guided by the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit for some particular service?
JT There is a difference. Being filled with the Spirit is a question of any person, like Stephen, being ready for use; but I think guiding into all the truth is a collective thought. The Paraclete or Comforter is with us, taking charge of the matter. It is wonderful, as this is borne in mind, how the truth comes out and you are made conscious of it. The canon of Scripture, I believe, is on this principle, what has been reached by the Spirit having His place.
WC A number of the names we have amongst the twelve we hear very little of, but they were necessary to the whole. Does that suggest we should always be listening? We may not always have eminent servants to listen to, but all are part of the whole.
JT Yes, the apostles are all in the foundations of the city, there you see the full result. Peter had his name there, of course, but then others whose names are mentioned only once in the Acts have their names there, too, showing the work was carried on”To every man his work”.
WC The love of the truth would give us an interest in it through whomsoever it might come. We should not be looking merely to be refreshed, but looking for the one through whom the Lord would speak.
JT Yes. Then another thing — loving the truth will give you to look for and value every one who has more than you have. Paul laid himself out to commend it to them, bringing up with him to Jerusalem [p. 366] Titus, so that they gave to him and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, and Peter came to it fully.
Ques Is it in your mind that, as being set together, features of adjustment might come in amongst us in order that the Spirit might be free to guide? Is that in your mind in relation to our being with one another?
JT That is what I am thinking of; a readiness in what I am saying to think of what another may say and wait to see whether the Comforter, the Spirit of truth, may not have something further to bring out, for that is what He is there for really; He helps us, but then He is the Spirit of truth and He is to direct in a subjective way. Christ is the truth objectively; the Spirit is the truth subjectively; and surely it is a great matter to lay myself open to be in that. There is that which He is objectively, the Spirit is the truth, but that is what He is in the saints held in relation to one another.
Ques Will you say a little more as to what is involved in “that they might be with him”; what is the difference between that and what you are saying now about our being together?
JT Being with Him together — one must assume that is the meaning. His gestures and attitude and hints and often words of ennoblement as in the case of the three mentioned, would fit us into each other, fit the apostles into each other, that they were a separate people mutually set together under the influence of Christ in His companionship.
Rem “One Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things”.
JT Well, the apostles were peculiarly ‘by him’, He brought them in, a set of men the like of which never existed before or after; they are His product “by whom are all things”. He is now working in the thing that is going to characterise the whole testimony while the Spirit is down here, wonderful men, and [p. 367] they go right through, for John shows them in the foundations of the heavenly city. Each man did his work, and they evidently worked in relation to one another, there is no discrepancy in the foundations.
PL Each gracing his niche in subjection to the Lord’s sovereign will.
JT That is what is worked out, I think. Peter says, “What shall this man do?” Well, you might say, there was perhaps some right thought at the bottom there, but the Lord had to check and correct that. There might have been a little inclination with Peter to dominate, to be the first. He was first, but then, he was not a president of the apostles, he was just an apostle; he must therefore — and did readily — take his place and listen to any of the others. You often wonder how they did get along in their meetings, how they would proceed; but you may be sure these great men like Peter and Paul, would gladly listen to another and enjoy what another was saying. Paul speaks of himself and Silas and Timotheus preaching the Son of God.
Ques In Acts 15 James speaks about Simeon, how he had brought before them certain truth; were they consciously together there?
JT They were, they were reaching a great conclusion. They were facing a difficulty, too, because the enemy was attempting to drive a wedge between Jerusalem and Antioch, but the procedure by Paul and Barnabas, under the Lord, defeated it. Peter and James were the spokesmen, and we can see how they move together.
AJG Is it a question of seeing what the Lord is doing and the end He is working to? I was thinking of the Lord Himself saying when here that “the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth” (John 5: 20); that the Lord in His service moved as being shown by the Father what the Father was [p. 368] doing?
JT That is very touching, that principle must come right down to us, not only what we say, but what we show. The Spirit is here to guide us into all the truth, showing, I suppose, that everything emanates from the Father, whether it be working in a general way or teaching; not only that the thing is done, but how it is done.
Ques Would it involve the spirit of enquiry with us all?
JT You feel you would need to enquire. The apostle, in writing to the Ephesians, wishes particularly that they should know his knowledge of the mystery. Well, it is a great matter somebody knows, and he wants them to understand that he, knew and, of course, you ask questions of a man who knows.
EG Referring to the showing, it says, “Yet show I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence”,
JT That is the idea. Not simply that you talk about love, which Paul did, but you show the thing.
The Father showed the Son — wonderful that the Lord should so speak! Here we have the Spirit showing us things to come, the word is ‘announce’, it is this sense of making a thing plain, too, and the more you know a thing the plainer you can make it.
Do you not think so?
Rem “Jesus knew therefore that they desired to demand of him, and said to them ...” as though the mind of the Lord was given authoritatively in answer to the spirit of enquiry that was amongst them.
JT Quite so. The Lord, I am sure, helps us.
We have spoken of the distinctions He puts on His servants. He began Himself, I believe, to set out the principle for us, “Both hearing them, and asking them questions”. I am sure the apostle Paul would gladly sit down and listen to the twelve or to any one [p. 369] of them at any time to hear what they were saying and ask them questions, too. So would they listen to him normally, I am sure.
Ques So would you connect the guiding into all the truth with what is obviously authoritative at any time?
JT Well, it says particularly in Matthew and Mark of the Lord that He spoke with authority, not as the scribes. If one knows a thing, he knows it and can speak of it; the better you know a thing, the more power you have in giving it out; not only that you can say it, but you can show it is so.
PL Does this guidance link up with spiritual leadership and is that balanced by the temple thought bringing in what is more mutual?
JT I think that is right. Acts 15 has been already alluded to; it is a very remarkable procedure, there was strong opposition, the enemy was working. The apostles Barnabas and Paul were received by the assembly, things were maintained right in spite of the opposition and the apostles and elders came together to consider the matter. Then you get the apostles speaking of the work of God which had been done among the gentiles and Peter makes his statement. I suppose the idea is that Peter was first in Jerusalem, God gave him that place, and he opened up the mind of God on the matter. The Holy Spirit undoubtedly was present in the procedure and He used the qualified persons, too; it was not any brother getting up, it was Peter, and he begins by calling attention to the fact that God had ordained that by his mouth the gentiles should hear the gospel; so that his position is clear, he is the one who gives the spiritual lead in the matter. Then there is happy conversation; it is quite apparent that the spiritual atmosphere increases in the meeting. Then James draws attention to what was said, that it agreed with what the Scriptures said. So an excellent [p. 370] spirit prevails in spite of the opposition, and then a conclusion is reached.
WC Would the idea of presidency be there?
JT If you were to ask Paul or Barnabas afterwards, I am sure they would have said the Lord’s hand was over all that, and I am sure that many of us can say the same thing as to such matters, that the Lord takes care of things in a palpable way. One and another speaks and a right conclusion is reached, and all that brings out the idea of presidency.
Rem So James would be in the consciousness of that when he said, “Brethren, listen to me”; not that we should say that, but should there not be a sense of that with us, of the Lord’s presidency?
JT Well, the man who says that knows he has something to say.
HB It says they held their peace — things were not too hurried.
JT The atmosphere increases in that remarkable chapter, and it is set down as an example for us. First, the apostles and elders came together to consider the matter, and then certain from the gentiles are allowed to tell the company what God had done with them, and there was Titus by them, a man the like of which you could not meet in Jerusalem as a product of the gospel, a gentile, and Paul says they did not insist on their being circumcised, showing the power of the truth was there. The account in Galatians helps us.
PL “Ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake”.
“Barnabas and Paul, men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ”.
JT You mean that is embodied in the letter.
PL Quite so.
JT That is, I think, a good example for us of how the Spirit of God guides us into all the truth.
WM It says in this chapter, “It has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us” — is that [p. 371] the thought?
JT Quite so. Then there is just the other thought, namely the presidency of Samuel over the prophets. In 1 Samuel 19: 20 it says, “Then Saul sent messengers to take David; and they saw a company of prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as president over them; and the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied”. It would seem that the Spirit of God incorporated the messengers and brought them under His presidency.
Ques Is there any similarity between this last account and 1 Corinthians 14 — the prophetic word?
JT I think there is. This shows us how the prophets may be increased. These were messengers of Saul but there was remarkable power there. We see how the prophets may be increased even as we sit down. We cannot say, This one ought to speak tonight and that one — it is a question of the presidency. The Spirit of God may use persons you have never thought of.
PL Suggesting what is there potentially in the Spirit.
AC The name of Samuel would speak of what the Lord had asked the Father for — “I will beg the Father, and he will give you another Comforter”.
JT You mean his name means, Asked of God. Yes, quite so — a good principle here.
Ques Is the subduing power of the prophetic word seen here to subdue what is hostile?
JT Quite so. It is remarkable how it subdues others more than might have been thought of; I mean to say, this line of thought makes for the increase of prophets, even Saul himself came under the power, showing what power there is.
PL Would you say that David finding refuge here suggests that such a character of things would furnish a retreat for the Lord in a dark [p. 372] day?
JT It shows how there may be that at the present time with the murderous spirit that is abroad in the sense of opposition to Christ. Christ is not here personally, but the testimony of the truth is most vigorously attacked in all directions. Well, here is the thing, this is the thing — the prophets prophesying, they are doing it, they are not simply official prophets, they are prophesying and Samuel is presiding over them as appointed, showing he has a special place; he is called ‘president’. Well, that is the way the thing is met, that the enemy’s power is broken. First Jonathan saves him, then Michal saves him, then, when both of these failed subsequently, there is only one hope, and that is the prophetic ministry. That is, it is not now in this day a question of creeds or even codes being taught amongst us, it is a question of power, that is, power working out prophetically among the brethren, that overcomes all the difficulties.
WC Would the word, “We can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth” (2 Corinthians 13: 8), bear on it? As the enemy attacks, the truth comes out.
JT I think that is it; the Spirit is the truth, it must stand.
Ques Do you connect Samuel’s standing with the Lord being actively present as in a meeting for ministry?
JT I think that is what we should look for. We ask Him to be with us, and He does not like us to be asking for things we do not expect; He comes in and we know well enough He comes in. So, besides Samuel, we have the action of the Spirit, the Spirit of God comes upon Saul and he prophesies — the power was there. I suppose the Lord represents the authority, but the Spirit is the subjective power.
HB In regard to the meeting for ministry, if the Spirit of God was active might we look for [p. 373] fresh vessels serving in that way giving the prophetic word?
JT That is what comes out, I think. You see the messengers of Saul are brought in there, showing the power there was, but in 1 Corinthians 14 we have, “If there be a revelation to another sitting there, let the first be silent”; that shows the Spirit of prophecy is operating and selecting another vessel besides the one speaking.