THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD, THE SPIRIT OF ADOPTION AND THE FATHER'S SPIRIT

^[p. 384] THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD, THE SPIRIT OF ADOPTION AND THE FATHER’S SPIRIT

2 Corinthians 3:17,18; Romans 8:14,15; Ephesians 3:14 - 16

JT What is in view is not to take the subject of the Spirit in its general bearing into consideration, but as to how it enters into the service of God in the assembly. There are two main features in that service, the first is dominical and the second paternal. The Spirit of the Lord obviously has to do with the part that is regarded as dominical in the Scriptures; and the Spirit of adoption, being the Spirit of sonship, refers to the saints in relation to God as their Father; then, in addition, there is the Father’s own Spirit, that is, the Holy Spirit viewed as the Father’s Spirit, which alludes to power, power in our souls in leading us to apprehend things or comprehend them, so far as we may. These three phases of the Spirit, it seems, are essential to the service of God at the present time. The statement by the apostle Paul in writing to the Philippians enters into what we are saying, “We are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh”, Philippians 3:3. Christians are characteristically those who worship by the Spirit of God. One observes, in moving about, that there is considerable irregularity as to the order of the service of God in the assembly, the dominical part is put into the paternal, and sometimes the paternal into the dominical, tending to confusion; as, for instance, hymns given out to the Lord, thanksgivings addressed to the Lord, after we have begun with the Spirit of adoption. So that, if we consider the Spirit of the Lord in 2 Corinthians 3, we may get a little help as to the first part of the ^[p. 385] service.

WW If it is not going on too far, I would like to ask a question as to the difference between the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of God. I notice in Ephesians 3 it says, as to the Spirit of the Father, “that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God”.

JT Well, what may be in your mind is that that also might be brought in, the Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. In general, the Spirit of God stands in relation to God, so that we find Him very early. As you will remember, in the first chapter of the Bible, the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters; it is, therefore, a more general thought extending back to Old Testament times, to the creation, “By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens” (Job 26: 13), that is to say, it is God viewed in a more general sense than we have in mind now. The Spirit of the Father cannot be spoken of as existing in the Old Testament times — I mean in that aspect — the Spirit of God can be spoken of but it would be as acting beforehand in others, but the Spirit of the Lord is, I think, peculiar to the present time, and certainly the Spirit of adoption is. The Holy Spirit, of course, has to do with the assembly in the sense of the anointing; the assembly is said to be the Christ, that is, as anointed, which is a matter of our public position, affording dignity in a moral sense. But the Spirit of the Lord seems to be fitting as to the actual service, because the Lord is said to be the Spirit of the new covenant and that thought is immediately transposed into the term the Spirit of the Lord and then the Lord the Spirit.

Ques Would it be the particular liberty of the Spirit in view of the glory connected with the new covenant?

JT Yes, I suppose it would. The covenant is said to be the ministration of the Spirit which subsists in glory, that is, the Spirit Himself is seen as ministering the new covenant; but that comes in in connection ^[p. 386] with the paternal thought, the original thought arises from the suggestion of the new covenant and what it is in the spirit of it, which is said to be the Lord Himself. But then it does not stop at that, it says the Spirit of the Lord and brings in the Holy Spirit; the Lord the Spirit is the Lord Himself as the Spirit of the covenant; but, as to the Spirit of the Lord, it seems we must bring in the thought of the Holy Spirit — at least that is how I understand it. Have you any other thought?

Rem I only had the thought that, connecting it with the service of God, it might indicate how far we can go on the dominical side.

JT The verse alluded to reads, “How shall not rather the ministry of the Spirit subsist in glory?” (verse 8), and then, “We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit” (verse 18). It would seem as if we should link on the ministry of the Spirit in those verses (that is the verses in the parenthesis beginning, as all will know, at the end of verse 6 and ending at the end of verse 16) with the ministry of the Lord; that is to combine the thought of the two divine Persons, the ministry leading to our being changed, but it culminates in that way, as if the two divine Persons have to do with it, the One involving authority, the Lord, being at the same time the Spirit of the new covenant, and the other involving the Holy Spirit Himself.

NKM What is involved in the statement you have made, the Lord the Spirit being the Spirit of the new covenant?

JT I think the Spirit of the new covenant being the Lord Himself means that He personally is that, as it applies to those of us who form the assembly. You do not get the terms of the new covenant in Corinthians, nor in any epistle addressed to gentile ^[p. 387] believers; the terms are very exact and brief as applied to Israel and Judah, the Lord writes His law in their minds and does not remember their sins any more. These terms are not introduced to us who form the assembly, but instead of that you have the new covenant in Christ’s blood in the first epistle to Corinthians, and then the Lord being the Spirit of it in the second epistle, as if He personally applies it to ourselves, lifting it on to a higher plane, as is obvious; He is applying what refers to one family, a family on a lower plane, to a family on a higher plane. He has to do with all the families ministerially — they are all named of the Father — and knows how to take the Spirit of the new covenant as applied to Israel and Judah, in a spiritual way and apply it to us; for it is not made with us at all, the link is, I think, with the Lord being the Spirit of it, so He can bring the thing in in the spirit of it and make it applicable to those with whom it is not made.

NKM Does that involve His mediatorial service in the assembly?

JT I think so. A Mediator of a better covenant — the mediation of it involves not only that it is brought into existence, but that it is made effective; He will make it effective to Israel by and by. It is the divine teaching of forgiveness, but it is more than that to us, it involves the Spirit of the Lord amongst us and leads up to glory, the complete transformation in us. That is, it is something not made directly with us, but it becomes a great instrument whereby glory is introduced and we changed according to that glory.

Ques Would Exodus 24 fit in there at all, where everything was sprinkled, Moses and the elders going up into the mountain?

JT Well, I think we have a suggestion of it, a suggestion of more than what was proper to Israel there. Chapter 19 contemplates what was proper to Israel, they were to be a holy nation, a nation of ^[p. 388] priests, and Moses led them out of the camp to meet with God, but they were at the foot of the mountain and they were kept there. But in chapter 24 they are invited up, not exactly to the mountain, for it is not mentioned in their case, but they are invited up, which would, I think, point to what belongs to us.

Ques Is the effect of this service to bring us into conscious known relationship with God?

JT That is what is seen here — an instrument not intended for us directly is taken into use and service as to us.

Rem I was thinking if we want the realm of Ephesians 3, we have what is given sovereignly, but do we need to be helped so that we are in right moral relations with God, and is the outshining of His glory prior to what is connected with counsel? Does it come in in this way?

JT Well, we need to learn, as Israel needs to learn, as here on earth, great moral teaching has to come out. We are in school, as it were; we may have noblemen’s children and artisans’ children in the same college. They are perhaps intended for different avocations, but there are certain lines of education that both must have. But one can see that, if a royal personage has to have a certain line of instruction, the tutor understands the line on which he is teaching, so there is a different spirit in the instruction. The basic side of the teaching is the same, but the personnel, the spirit, are all different. That, I think, is perhaps illustrative of 2 Corinthians, that the Lord is the great Teacher, all are to be taught of God — that is one great principle the Lord enunciates, they shall all be taught of God, whatever family. He is the great ministerial Personage; He has to do with the teaching of God and if He has taken up those who form the assembly, He never forgets they are of that class; He can bring in the Spirit proper to that class, for in truth we have the Holy Spirit already, we ^[p. 389] are sons of God, children of God, we are on a higher plane and He knows how to bring the Spirit of the new covenant to bear on us profitably. That is, I think, how the matter stands.

WS Does the introduction of the Spirit suggest the thought of our being in liberty with God?

JT It does; in liberty with one another, too. I think that, in sitting down in assembly, it is important to be at liberty with one another as well as with God.

Ques Is liberty brought about by the appreciation of the way in which the Lord makes known the love of God to us as people who were not a people?

JT Just so. Israel is God’s people, and so are we; for the moment, in a provisional way, we are God’s people on earth, so teaching applies to us and qualifies us to be that.

Ques What would be the difference between the quickening of the Spirit and then going on to the thought of our being transformed — do both thoughts come in?

JT They do. The transformation is the point reached, from glory to glory, that is, we reach a plane of unending glory. Covenant glory merges in a higher glory, fitting us and carrying us on at the same time. There is no lapse, or hiatus, we go on; that is the point, how we link on with the higher glory.

Ques I was wondering as to the character of this glory. Would it be connected with the complete triumph of God in all His ways and the saints brought in on the line of that but having their place in regard to counsel?

JT Just so. You can see how great the instrument used is in the Lord’s hands. He will say, I can use this, and He does use it as the Spirit of the thing, so we are immediately told, “Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty” — a great general fact. There is liberty with God and with one another, a ^[p. 390] point reached which gives great scope in the service of God. The Lord has much room now, so as we go on, by beholding His covenant administrative glory, we are changed into the same image even as by the Lord the Spirit.

NKM What would “according to the same image” involve?

JT I think it involves we are made like Christ, but more particularly like one another; so He has all that now under His hand. The book of the Revelation helps as to how we progress. We get one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed in chapter 7, but when we touch one hundred and forty-four thousand again, in chapter 14, they are with the Lamb on mount Zion; well, that is the love sphere, applied to ourselves, for mount Zion is a position divinely loved. We are now advanced into a realm of love, and the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn the heavenly song. You are progressing now in Revelation.

NKM Where do you put mount Zion in the service of the assembly?

JT Well, it is a question of divine counsel. That is where “He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth which he hath founded for ever” (Psalm 78: 69); but He says, “Here will I dwell, for I have desired it”, Psalm 132: 14. If we reach that point we are in our proper situation, there is nothing to interfere with love now, the persons are suitable, for they are like Christ, and the place is suitable. The persons are under His hand and amenable to the administration of love.

WC Do you take this to be the general thought going on, or is it specially when we are together?

JT It comes out when we are together. In 1 Chronicles we have a great occasion when the ark is restored, and David is very active himself, but then he left Asaph and others to carry on as every ^[p. 391] day required. Abstractly the saints may not be together, but then the thing goes on; the great occasion brings out that we are equal to it.

NKM You would find the formation going on in relation to Mary of Bethany as she sat at the Lord’s feet.

JT That was the great occasion, it illustrates what we are saying; Luke shows her as sitting at the Lord’s feet — that was her everyday attitude.

FW Would the principle of addition enter into it, from glory to glory?

JT I think it should. It is a wonderful thought spiritually, for these matters refer to spirituality, not mere mentality, but what it is to be in a realm of glory, and it is one thing after another, glory to glory, in that we are taking the thing on in a substantial way, and that must be continuous in each of us, and when we come together it is there, every one is equal to the great occasion.

FW So it would be cumulative.

JT Certainly, the history of the saint is continuous throughout the whole of his life here; there is never a moment, I think, should be lost.

FW So we would be greater spiritually every time we come together.

JT Exactly. All that is said about the sanctuary in the Old Testament is to show us that there is a great occasion, when we come together all shines, every whit says Glory — that is the idea. Well, it will not if any person is there without the Spirit or without formation, there will be dark spots.

F Is the covenant glory taken on by Stephen in view of the further glory coming in by the apostle Paul?

JT Certainly. There are two glories in Stephen the actual was that the council could see his face shining like the face of an angel; the other is moral. We have to consider what that face means there;

^[p. 392] the moral glory is unquestionable when he kneeled down and prayed for his enemies; that is the reflection of Christ in a suffering saint, but a face as an angel, I think, is judicial glory. The old covenant was through angels, the new covenant is by Christ, He is the Mediator of the new covenant. I think, therefore, the face of the angel is judicial glory that Stephen took on, he was about to indict Israel and his face shone beforehand as to what he was going to do, but he ended up with the great moral glory, as Jesus was here in suffering — a wonderful combination. But he was capable of taking on the glory; it is the kind of material God effects in us that we can take on glory, whatever it may be. God may use a brother for judicial purposes; well, his face ought to reflect that.

Ques Would what is said in Joshua 3 help us? — the ark of the covenant is much alluded to there.

JT Well, we are really dealing with an actual time in the service and I believe what you say applies; we are about to pass over, but it is as fully fit to do it. This chapter is fitting us to take on glory, going into Canaan is another glory. The Lord has got us now, we are like Himself and like one another. Joseph selected five men to present to Pharaoh; he could have taken the whole eleven, for they are all his brothers, but he did not; and that suggests the Lord takes us in suitably and He ministers to us to that end because He is the Lord the Spirit; He has authority over our souls, then the Spirit being in us is the great weapon to form us, then the Spirit of the covenant, all to make us fit to go over, so He has us as in His mind before the Father.

Ques Do we need to linger more on the covenant sphere?

JT I think so. It seems as if we ought to make this a success, as it were, and if time is needed, to take the time. The Lord is waiting on us to take the time to be adjusted. Of course I know well enough ^[p. 393] how the sisters close their books and make a noise with their bags, and so on, but still it is worth taking the time. Think of what it has cost Him to have this service, and now we are the actual vessels of this service. He has provided everything for us in the Mediator — the type shows it in Exodus.

Ques Was the queen of Sheba allowed to see the whole range of glory?

JT Well, she got a wonderful view, greater than she could have had in Exodus in the wilderness.

Ques Is any link essential for the operation of the morning meeting between the thought of the covenant and the ministry of reconciliation?

JT I think there is, there may be more the Lord will help us on. New creation must come into it, but I think generally it is more generation than new creation in assembly, it is the personnel of it, and the crucial point is just what I am taking on, the change from glory to glory, so that the Lord has us under His hand, happy, like Himself and like one another.

Ques In regard to the change, would you speak to the Lord or to God?

JT We are still under the Lord, it is the dominical thought.

Rem Joseph, in glory typically, says to his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you; he gets them all together first.

JT And what a testimony it was when he selected five of them only to take them in to Pharaoh.

Ques What do you see in that?

JT It is a question of quality, what is suitable to a man like Pharaoh, a figure of God there as supreme; and Joseph, knowing well what the court of Pharaoh required, is concerned that his brothers should be equal to it.

Ques Do you think in this meeting the Lord would employ the brethren for that in which they are most ^[p. 394] capable?

JT You mean in participation — just so. I can understand that, if the Lord would like to say a word to us, He would use a man who can do it, who is accustomed to do it — not that it would be always so. But He did it Himself; attention is called to the manner of His speaking. It is not a question of what is said always, but the spirit in which it is said, and the use of words, too; the Lord is concerned as to having everything ornamental and commendable, as it should be.

Rem We may not be numbered amongst the five, we may miss the point, through lack of qualification.

JT I think that is right; it is intended to challenge us.

Ques Is the qualification in the Spirit as well as the personality? Is it mainly in the Spirit?

JT It may be, but I think it is more the effect of the Spirit when it comes to our being brought in to God, it is the Spirit in a particular way. I am adjusted as to everything, and now I am ready for family relationship, I know how to be inside, how to speak to God inside.

Ques Does the quickening of the Spirit in Corinthians referred to just now bring us to livingly enter upon the love of God and thus be qualified to move on?

JT Yes, “the Spirit quickens” would be to make alive in relation to the position we are in. Life is in various settings, but we are on the highest plane in the assembly of God.

Rem We have to hold the thought of the Spirit of God in a special way in our minds as the Spirit of the living God.

JT Just so.

Ques Joseph’s brethren say, “We are twelve brethren, sons of our father”, would that show the tendency to pass over the dominical side without matters being adjusted?

JT Well, they had to learn the authority ^[p. 395] of Joseph; he binds one of them before their eyes. And so it is, you see the reverent way things are done in the assembly; you like to see a man bound so that the others should be warned. Take a man like Zacharias; he asked for things and when they came he would not believe it, and he was bound for nine months. Better that a brother should be made dumb than that he should be interfering with the service of God; but, on the other hand, if be is a dumb brother, you want to have his mouth opened.

Ques Is not the word in Hebrews exercising”Let us ... have grace, by which let us serve God acceptably with reverence and fear. For also our God is a consuming fire”, Hebrews 12: 28, 29?

JT Just so, that is the thing to keep in mind. It is God’s assembly and the order of God is greatly stressed in 1 Corinthians.

Ques Is your scripture in Romans just the changeover from the dominical side to the Spirit of adoption?

JT Well, there is the change in ourselves, there is this passing over, and if this continuous formation is not going on, when the great occasion comes I am left out of the matter — and we do not want to be left out. When the Spirit of adoption comes in, our minds should be brought into it; as soon as the Spirit of adoption is heard, we should proceed on that line — that is one of the most important things I see. Brethren often go back to the dominical side after we have touched the Spirit of adoption.

NKM It speaks of it here as a Spirit of adoption.

JT Yes, it is the character of the thing. In view of all the settings in which it is found, it seems the Holy Spirit has to be brought into it.

Ques Do you mean that, before you would say, Father, in worship, you would listen for this note of the Spirit of adoption? You would not do it lightly.

JT Yes, you would look for it in worship, or it might be suggested in other ways, but as soon as it is,

^[p. 396] keep on at it, for we are now on the level the Lord intends for us. When, in Luke, He told the disciples that their names were written in heaven, we are immediately told He rejoiced in spirit, as much as to say, I have a people like that. Here we have people giving out a hymn to the Father and immediately speaking to the Lord; the result is we are confused and do not reach any definite end.

Rem It is remarkable that there should be more rebellion in the service of God than in any other service.

JT That is just the one thing the enemy would spoil. Jehovah says to Moses, You come up to the mount and be there; that is the first time we get place mentioned. As to the ascending part, it is just said the elders of Israel were to go up, it is moral elevation, but the first reference to a place is that the Lord says, Moses, you are to be there, I will give you the tables of stone and the law and commandments for the instruction of Israel. Well, that instruction has to be waited for, and, in the meantime, Satan comes in and spoils the whole matter.

Ques Would the dominical side help with the great matter of closing the doors that all that is unsuitable is kept out?

JT Quite so. You only find the doors closed in John, not in Luke, and hence there was much there the Lord had to deal with. In John it is all settled, and the Lord comes in and finds things right.

WC In connection with the enemy’s move to spoil the service, would the exercise on our part be in connection with the divining cup? Do we need to take account of the Lord’s perfect knowledge of the state He sees — “What deed is this which ye have done?”

JT That is a good type in point, for these ten brothers were now consciously in the presence of a man who could read their hearts.

^[p. 397] Rem The first time they all moved together on another line was when every man laded his ass and returned to the city.

JT Very beautiful. You mean the presentation of the new covenant there?

Rem Yes.

Ques At what point do we speak to God as in regard of the covenant?

JT It can be appropriately done in the set of circumstances of which we are speaking. It is intended to be a wide area, so to speak, spiritually, and it comes in very appropriately there where it is still a question of the new covenant, the Lord the Spirit. I think it rightly leads on, where God is spoken of in these ways, we can go on to the Father very conveniently and happily.

Ques Do you think we lack the power to ascend? It says in Exodus 24 that “Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and ascended the mountain”.

JT Yes, just so. There he is a type of Christ. The ascension of the saints is spoken of before verse 12. “Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up; and they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness. And on the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: they saw God, and ate and drank”. That alludes to our part. What follows that passage is that Moses is invited up by himself — Joshua, his attendant, too, of course, but that is another matter — he is invited up to be there in the mount, in the place, and then he ascends; it is a continual glory for the Mediator, an important thing to have in our minds as in the assembly that Christ is always above us; He is anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions — that is always a wholesome thing to have in mind.

^[p. 398] Ques Would you say the service of the Lord in relation to the covenant precedes His service to us in relation to God?

JT In relation to the Father, not in the covenant, and then God in the absolute sense. We have wonderful things ahead of us.

Ques I was thinking of referring to God distinctly in relation to the covenant before the thought of the Father and God as we understand it, how would that come in?

JT In the circumstances of which we are now speaking spiritually, it is a wide area, the Spirit of the Lord is there, we are very sensitive; the idea of the body, the organism, is always present. We are very sensitive as to what may be going on in each other, and if there is a suggestion of God as the God of the covenant, we all join in that happily, and presently the Spirit of adoption comes in, the area is very free and the Spirit of God loves that; there is liberty, room, scope, as was said of the well in Isaac’s day, Rehoboth, a place of room; there is plenty of room, the Philistines no longer challenge us, the Spirit of adoption is heard — that is the thing, to keep on with that, do not let us lose that.

Ques Is that why you get Paul’s face mentioned in Acts 20? They were specially pained that they should see his face no more; had there been the expression of this great glory amongst them?

JT Just so. Jesus’ face, Stephen’s face, Paul’s face, all suggest what this thing may be. The face is intended to reflect what is in one.

Ques What do you understand by the Spirit of adoption?

JT The Spirit of sonship. If a child is adopted into a man’s family, the child never forgets he does not really belong to the family save by adoption, but in christianity it is more than that; I am inwardly conscious that I am of the family, I have no other ^[p. 399] history; in truth, as the matter is clearly understood, I have no other history at all.

Rem It is the Spirit of His Son in our hearts.

JT Quite so.

Ques Would there be a difference between the thought of redemption and being born of God?

JT The idea of redemption has to come in to clear us; the idea of generation is that I have no sinful history at all, and that is how the matter will stand ultimately in eternity.

Ques Where does your third scripture fit in?

JT Well, now we are entering on an immense domain, and the Father has named us, He has given us a status in the divine realm, every family in heaven and earth is named of Him, we are told, and the apostle bows his knees in regard to it. “In order that he may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man; that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts, being rooted and founded in love, in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ”. Now we are in the great domain, and you want to be in it in power. Your mind is not great enough for this, no creature mind is great enough for this, you need the Father’s Spirit in the inner man. The apostle does not speak of praying anywhere else as he prays here, and that shows how important it is for us.

Rem The word is ‘apprehend’ in the New Translation.

JT Yes, because it is the creature side, the thing is too great for us to take in. But the first thing is, “that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts”, that is, it is Christ apprehended as operating to bring everything into effect: that is important, everything is under Him.

^[p. 400] Ques Before going on to that — do we not often find that a brother giving thanks for the cup brings God in the covenant before our hearts, is it quite right then to go back to the Lord?

JT I think you might do it, but the Lord says, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood”, it is the Lord who is before us, it is the Lord’s supper and the new covenant is brought into the Lord’s supper. It is not God’s supper; God has a supper, but that is not it — it is the Lord’s supper, and it seems it is simpler to keep to the Lord, and in due course, if we refer to God, His love in the covenant, to use our minds wisely and say, We must keep to that thought, and not go on to the Father immediately.

Ques What would help us to linger over the thought of the covenant, for that usually ends in a very high note of praise?

JT Just to do it. You sing with the spirit and you sing with the understanding. Use your mind, the renewed mind.

Ques If a brother gives out a hymn which takes us away from it, what will you do?

JT Well, go back again. You may sing the hymn but you are not governed by it, you feel it is not right. Beholding the glory of the Lord has great detaining power to those who love Him.

NKM Is that what you have often referred to as having spiritual power in silence?

JT Yes, so much enters into the intelligences of the brethren. “I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing also with the understanding” (1 Corinthians 14:15)be free in doing the thing, but do it with your understanding.

T Would that come in with what the apostle refers to earlier, “Having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, I have believed, therefore have I spoken”, 2 Corinthians 4: 13?

JT Yes. Then that ought to challenge us as to ^[p. 401] what hymn we give out or how we give thanks, what is suitable now, for Exodus points out that all is under the priest, it is the priestly book, the service is under Aaron, and the priest knows, his lips keep knowledge. If we are priestly we know what to do — that is the thing to have before us.

WC Do you think we ought to know the way up by steps? It speaks of the stairs that went up, whither the tribes went up, there were stages, one after another. We have to study the way to know where we are.

JT I think that is good; the Songs of Degrees help in the spirit of them, they are songs of ascents.

Ques Will you develop a little more as to the simplicity of taking each feature by itself?

JT I think that would greatly help us; intelligence then would regulate us in what we do.

Rem There is a tendency with us to roam about, but this might shorten some of the contributions and make room for others.

JT Just so.

Rem One often feels, in that way, the position is spoilt by one brother wanting to start a line and carry the meeting through, whereas, if we were more simple and took what is immediately before us, we should get help.

Ques Does the thought of the Father suggest the Lord has His place as Leader of the assembly in approaching the Father?

JT Just so. Now is the time to make room for that. The court is not, in one sense, in mind, we are on a high level, it is the second inner compartment.

Rem So the going back to Lordship would perhaps be setting aside the Lord’s position as Leader.

JT Quite so. There is a derangement of the whole matter, so Ephesians says, “that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts”. In this domain we need to apprehend Him, not only as ^[p. 402] amongst us, but in relation to the whole breadth and length and depth and height, that is, it is Christ operatively, it is Christ, the One who does things. Your eye is on the great Personage who has everything in hand, and you see Him by faith. And then we are to be “rooted and founded in love”, it says; that is our present state, not simply that we love one another but we are rooted in it, meaning, I think, that love is actually working, producing living conditions. And “founded” is that I am fixed in the position, not vacillating — “in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints”. It is not mental, it is a question of the Father’s Spirit in the inner man.

NKM Then, “To know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge”, is that the love of the Christ operative in this domain you are referring to?

JT I think so, to know that that great Person loves us.

B So this would take us out of the sphere of what is local.

JT It would. It is a question of what we have in our souls, and, on the great occasion, we rise to what is required.

Ques Do we see how the dimensions increase as we go up? No need to go back for lack of scope in this great realm.

JT Just so — plenty of scope from the Ephesian point of view, but great operations necessary, and that is the thought of the Christ being brought in here both in His operations and His love; we are in the great domain of the Father — all the families.

Ques “To him be glory in the assembly” — would that be God as the One who is?

JT I think so, as the One who is, and who was, and who is to come.