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THE WILDERNESS

JT I thought it would be helpful if we looked a little at the wilderness. It is important that we should see that it is not simply that we hasten through it, but that it is a sphere ordained in the ways of God in which He sets forth His testimony; so I thought it would be helpful if we saw how we get into it, and, as it is rightly understood, the end of it, and how we get out of it. The consideration of the typical books always helps in regard of detail, as to the position of the believer in reference to the wilderness, or the land, and I was thinking only today of the place the book of Numbers holds. I think it will be found that in the opening statement of each of the books is indicated the point of view of the book. In Exodus it is a question of the names of those who came out of Egypt; therefore, that is the point of view; Egypt is especially in view and the people in it and being brought out of it. In Leviticus it is: “And the Lord called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle”, Leviticus 1:1 indicating what was in the tabernacle — what resided in it; that is to say, how the people were to have to say to God in the tabernacle; whereas in Numbers God spake “in the wilderness ... in the tent of meeting”. Numbers 1:1 So that it is not only as to what the tabernacle is inwardly, but what the tabernacle was in the wilderness. It is the wilderness position. I speak of that to show the setting of this chapter. Believers should see that as called out of the world it is not simply to go to heaven, but God designs a certain course here, and we are to stand in relationship to that, we are to see our place in relation to that, so that I thought this chapter ^[p. 22] opens the subject, because it is the believer definitely accepting the death of Christ in his baptism. I do not know what the brethren have to say to that.

Rem That is how we enter the wilderness, is it not?

JT I think so.

Ques Is death accepted because we come under the influence of the “One Man”? Romans 5:15 I think so. They “were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea”. 1 Corinthians 10:2 I think it is of all moment that we should see that what we are committed to is baptism, and then what God can do with us as the truth is accepted, because this chapter is a question of our bodies.

Ques You refer for the moment to the “yielding”?

JT Yes.

Ques When did the wilderness begin for Israel?

JT I thought it began upon the banks, when they had crossed the sea; they got to the other side of the sea from Egypt, but then it must be remembered that a whole year elapsed before the tabernacle was established.

Ques Do you think that in that way it is from mount Sinai that we get the full thought of the wilderness, is that not important? Because God brought the people out to keep the feasts, but they never did keep the feasts.

JT The first thought was — He said to Moses, ‘Now you are to serve Me here’; but the service, I believe, really depended on the tabernacle.

Rem It was on mount Sinai when God said that to him.

JT Mount Horeb is the name that is used.

Ques Do you mean that there can be no service without the tabernacle?

JT No, I do not mean quite that, because there is the yielding of the body individually — I have no doubt that a believer feels that his body is to be for ^[p. 23] the Lord from the first moment of his conversion, but I doubt whether he has any idea of the tabernacle then; in fact, what you have is the influence of grace first; there is no demand upon the people at the outset; God would culture them under the influence of grace.

Rem So the tabernacle is in view. Do you think we reach the tabernacle in Romans?

JT I think Romans is preparatory; you can only get the tabernacle in Romans by introducing it into chapter 12.

Ques Romans really supplies the man, does it not?

JT And Corinthians takes him up.

Ques Would chapter 12 just touch the edge of the collective thought — the tabernacle?

JT I think it does. You have in chapter 12 the thought of our relationship with one another. Chapter 3 is of all moment to form one for the tabernacle position. What I see is that the introduction into the wilderness is brought to pass by that which is objective. We are led into the wilderness by the light presented — the light of certain facts; it is not a question of what has taken place in you, although that is essential to your answering to these facts.

Ques Do you refer to chapters 3, 4 and 5?

JT Yes. Whereas what enables you to get out of the wilderness is entirely subjective. I do not say there is not that which is objective — the ark of the covenant is that, but we really get out of the wilderness by the Spirit.

Ques How was that represented in the history of the children of Israel — by that which followed the brazen serpent?

JT I think so. The tabernacle was not much in view at all after that — it is rather the Spirit. “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God”. You are not led by the tabernacle now but by the Spirit. Prior to that it was when the ^[p. 24] cloud moved which was over the tabernacle, that they moved.

Ques That is a question of light?

JT Entirely a question of light. Of course there has to be the work of God in us to enable us to respond — I mean to say it is only a converted person that would recognise that light.

Ques I suppose it is well to bear in mind that the wilderness is a very practical thought, is it not?

JT I think so, and it is not merely something that you have to pass through, it is designed of God. It is intended that the testimony should be there; hence the importance of the saint recognising that his body is requisite to it; you are needed there.

Ques There are divine lessons there, that can be learned nowhere else?

JT And more than that, you have set forth the order that shall be established presently — that order is to be seen in an adverse world: that is God’s idea. What I understand by the wilderness is this: that God does not propose to alter your circumstances outwardly at all, what He proposes to do is to alter you, so that you should set forth His order there.

Rem That is the difference between ourselves and Israel; they were led into a literal wilderness; now God affects us while we are still in the same circumstances; it is unseen to the natural eye.

JT The change is not in the circumstances but in you. I believe that any effort to alter your circumstances only interferes with the thought of God. He knows all about your circumstances before He touches you, and He intends to show the greatness of His work; He changes you and leaves the circumstances untouched. He supports you according to the light that has come into your soul.

Ques Could you state what it is that entices you to take the wilderness position?

JT I think what you see in Moses is important.

^[p. 25] He necessarily acquired a great place in the minds and hearts of the Israelites. He is really typical of Christ — that he celebrated the passover for faith, that the destroying angel should not touch them — it was not a question of himself but them. That shows his affection for them — he considered for them; in that way I think he acquired a very great place in the minds and hearts of the children of Israel. Now if you apply that to the Lord I think you can understand how believers are led to accept baptism as the eunuch did — the light of that Man in Isaiah 53 had come into his soul; He says, “here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?” Acts 8:36 Now it was said of the Israelites that they were all baptised unto Moses, but then what is said here is, “As many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death”. That is the point, I take it, here.

Ques Death becomes the means of escape from all that is obnoxious?

JT Yes, now God takes you up. Hence how all the education comes in. It is one thing to be fitted for heaven — I think the wilderness helps us there — I think the wilderness qualifies us for heaven, but then you have to be qualified for your place in relation to the tabernacle and I believe the first year of grace — the first year of the wilderness is for that purpose; you come under the influence of Christ, where there is no demand upon you, as it were, then God proposes a covenant.

Rem It is very striking that in that first year even the murmurings did not bring judgment, it only brought out God’s resources.

JT When you come to Numbers the word is spoken to Moses in the tabernacle in the wilderness, and the people are all to be numbered; there is to be a man of each tribe. I have no doubt there is the idea of local responsibility in that. You are numbered ^[p. 26] in reference to your own locality. It was not done in an arbitrary way — each tribe was represented. It all had in view the general arrangement in relation to the tabernacle of witness and that brings out, I think, the importance of the saint recognising God’s claim on him. You recognise God’s claim on you, that is to say, you are let down here, you are not taken to heaven, you are to be set in relation to the tabernacle of witness.

Ques Do you mean that is what we are numbered for?

JT Yes.

Ques Were they not numbered in the order of their pitching, and in the order of their march both in relation to the tabernacle?

JT Yes, and each man was to pitch by the standard of his father’s house.

Ques Does the tabernacle represent what is coming, in a coming day?

JT Yes, it represents the order that is in the mind of God; the great thought is, that that should be set up, while things are adverse.

Ques The order was to be represented in the camp of the people?

JT Yes, it was to be seen. Balaam saw it; he saw the people according to their tribes: “How goodly are thy tents, ... O Israel!” Numbers 24:5 He saw them according to their tribes; he looked on the wilderness, it was the people in the wilderness that Balaam saw.

Ques What is equivalent to the tabernacle of witness now?

JT It is that in which divine thoughts are cherished. That is the idea of it. The tabernacle contained within it all the precious things of God — pre-eminently the ark of the covenant — that was the great central thought, so that it was carefully guarded.

HWS What is the difference between ^[p. 27] the service of God in the wilderness and the service in the land?

JT What do you allude to?

HWS Is there not a service that the saints take up that is connected with their heavenly place?

JT What do you allude to? I only want to get your thoughts, you know.

HWS I was thinking of the saints in the consciousness of sonship.

JT That is the continuation really — there is only one service so far as I know, it begins in the wilderness.

Ques Is that service always connected with the tabernacle?

JT Yes, I think so.

JS Would the thought of the tabernacle bring in the idea of rule and law and all that which one must accept and bow to, and the pure grace of the first year prepares one to bow?

JT Yes, there can be no deviation from all that. You have to see that the affections were there at the outset. “I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness”. Jeremiah 2:2 There was an indication of their affection, and the first is, I think, the nurturing: the seventy palm trees and twelve wells of water were to promote that.

Ques Does Romans give you the first year?

JT I think so, but I think the epistle to the Romans contains more. I think it is important to see how God nurtures the affections of His people. The manna indicated that God would provide them with everything, but all to an end — the proposal He makes to them in Exodus 19: He would make a covenant with them and would dwell with them; wonderful thoughts! That was to be in the wilderness; all that shows the importance of the wilderness position. So that the book of Numbers begins with the second year, a man was supposed to be well on — ^[p. 28] twenty years old and upwards; there they are, and they are numbered, and each man is to take up his local position in regard to the tabernacle.

JB I would like to ask what is the meaning of the four ensigns and why the standard — bearers were Judah and Reuben, Ephraim and Dan?

JT Well, I do not know, except that it shows God’s own sovereignty in the arrangement — why Judah had the leading place would, I think, indicate the sovereignty of God — it is not Joseph, it is Judah; God acts according to His sovereignty and then that must be according to perfect wisdom.

JB I was wondering whether we got a kind of view of the order and it ends really in apostasy.

JT But how important that we should each know his place in regard to that. A man pitches by the standard of his father’s house, that refers to his local responsibility.

Rem As to the company at Corinth being addressed.

JT It was “to the assembly of God which is in Corinth ... with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ” 1 Corinthians 1:2; that is the general thought and the local thought, but the tabernacle is the great controlling, governing principle. The tabernacle was not a very ostentatious thing; compared with the temple it was very insignificant looking; the point in it is the value of the things contained within.

Ques Is there anything that answers to the tabernacle now?

JT I think, as I said, it is that in which divine thoughts are cherished; to speak more correctly, it is that in which Christ has a place as the Centre of all divine thoughts.

Rem That connects with Christ subjectively in the saints.

JT ^[p. 29] Wherever that is, that is the idea. You see it in the early part of the Acts.

L And it is all living.

JT Surely.

Rem Every type in the tabernacle finds an answer in connection with Christ and the assembly.

JT Yes.

WW Is it individual exercise up to chapter 12 and is chapter 12 the first allusion to what is collective?

JT I think so. In chapter 12 you come to what is practical. There the apostle begins to apply the truth. “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the compassions of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God”. Romans 12:1 God can use your body in the wilderness — you present your bodies living — the testimony is to be maintained by life, in living persons, and living persons from the divine point of view are persons who love, they love Christ and they love one another, that is to say Christ is cherished as the Centre of divine thoughts.

JS Would you say that the man in accord with Christ is found in Romans — the wood, and that in chapter 12 we have the gold appearing — the testimony of God is reached?

JT Yes, I think so. One has to think of himself wisely, soberly, according to his measure.

Rem So that there is to be divine order in the wilderness — in reference to our individual pathway there.

JT There is that here in which Christ is cherished as the ark of the covenant; in other words, as the One in whom all divine thoughts centre, and you want to be in relation to that, and you stand up in your own locality in relation to that. Others do the same, so that the same principles govern these people — they have one thought before them.

Rem That is the importance of chapter 12 — the ^[p. 30] will of God. Romans leads up, does it not, to the assembly, though as to actual fact you do not get the assembly?

JT It lays a basis in the soul for it, so that strictly the epistle to Romans, rightly understood, prepares the saints for Ephesians.

Rem I think it is specially helpful to notice that Romans supplies the man.

JT Yes, I was looking at chapter 12 to see how the believer comes up to the point. Paul says, “I say, through the grace which has been given to me, to every one that is among you, not to have high thoughts above what he should think; but to think so as to be wise, as God has dealt to each a measure of faith. For, as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office; thus we, being many, are one body in Christ, and each one members one of the other. But having different gifts, according to the grace which has been given to us, whether it be prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith”, etc. Romans 12:3 - 6. You see how the thing is regulated. I think the design of God is that whilst there is a catholic system — the universal principle — the same principle governs the universe, you have also the local thought, that is, that the same order prevails in all the assemblies.

Rem That you connect with Israel dwelling in their tents.

JT Yes, there is the order. Balaam’s prophecy shows the importance of the book of Numbers, from God’s point of view — the importance of the saints being in order.

JB Then do you speak of the wilderness as the usual circumstances of the saints?

JT Yes. The circumstances in which God has reached you, these circumstances become a wilderness to you; they are not altered, you are left in them, but now enlightened and educated and supported in ^[p. 31] them so that in you, as in others, God is able to set forth His mind and thought in the presence of evil. Evil is still untouched publicly.

JB Then is it your thought that as the children of Israel took their places in connection with the tabernacle, so we take up usual circumstances down here in the light of what has been set forth in Christ?

JT Yes, I think so. Moses brought all the light down from the mountain and that was given expression to in that which was constructed. Now we are to be in the light of it and we are to see to it that we answer to it.

Ques What is the difference between that thought and that in Ephesians 2:22, “Built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit”?

JT No difference in this sense that the habitation is there, but then Ephesians is not the setting forth of divine order in the wilderness. What do you say, Mr. M.?

PRM I should not think so.

Ques When you were speaking of the tabernacle and the temple, did you confine your thought of the tabernacle to the coming age or do you link it with eternity?

JT I see what you mean. It is in the coming world you see the order. God created a universe — moral order is there set forth, but then you have in the eternal order of things the idea of the tabernacle as a dwelling, not as a sphere of order, but as a dwelling, “The tabernacle of God is with men”. Revelation 21:3 You think that the temple is connected with the thought of kingdom glory; when you come to the tabernacle you have the very nature of God — not so much the contrast?

JT Yes, the tabernacle is really the greater thought and therefore the importance of seeing that it was in the wilderness.

^[p. 32] Ques Would you connect the last verse with the thought of the tabernacle as the dwelling?

JT Exactly.

Ques Is that not the end God has reached in the assembly?

JT Yes.

Ques So that Ephesians links the coming age with eternity?

JT It does. Now in regard of chapter 8, the point is not the order of the wilderness and guidance by objective facts, but the Spirit guides. “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God”. What I mean by objective is, for instance, baptism, it signifies that there has been movement; the Lord Jesus has left one order of things. He has left it by death, that is light, and we are affected by that light and so we accept baptism. Now Numbers 21 comes in; it is the termination of that order of things and the Spirit known as the subjective power becomes the means of guidance, so that sonship comes to light and not merely the light of it, but the effect of it in us.

Ques How are you using the word ‘guidance’ there?

JT The Spirit, I believe, guides the believer through his intelligence, through his affections, he comes to apprehend unseen things.

FWJ Does the light come from Moses and the power of life through the Spirit?

JT I think so, Mr. J. All that is objective comes through Moses — Moses is the apostle, but the subjective is clearly in the Spirit.

FWJ The flesh is supposed to have gone?

JT Yes, quite so. What one looks for in the assembly is guidance by the Spirit. When we come together we are guided by certain objective facts; it is a fact that brings us together. But then the great thing is to be governed by the light that has been ^[p. 33] given by God to govern any given position and I believe that after the brazen serpent a new chapter begins and the sons of God are brought to light by the Spirit — by the full unqualified recognition of the Spirit.

Ques Then in a way the saints are looked at abstractly, are they not?

JT What do you mean by that?

Rem Well, as to actual fact they are still alive in the life of flesh, but what has been brought to pass in the triumph of God is that God has a people living in the Spirit, and that, as a result, the body is presented a living sacrifice, but what underlies all that is the fact that they have been made to live in the Spirit.

JT Quite so. That underlies all our relations here on earth. Now, when you come to the history of the believer after the brazen serpent, you come to what is divine territory. The territory prior to that is not divine, there was not dislodgment of enemies there; when you come to the brazen serpent there is dislodgment of enemies. It is not Canaan, but it is territory that is divine. It was divinely given territory and had to be possessed; it was not the territory in which they were to live — a man’s business and his family — that is divine territory.

Rem One’s business must not be governed by the principles of the world.

JT It is an entire mistake to assume that a man’s business can be governed by the principles of the world.

Ques Do you call a man’s business divine territory?

JT The whole point in it is that he may have something to sacrifice; that is the reason why Moses would not leave the cattle.

Ques Are we still in the wilderness?

JT There is a certain ^[p. 34] divine territory that you have to pass, you recognise it; well, that divine territory was not over Jordan; it means a man’s family and a man’s business, as I understand it; it means legitimate relations here — what I mean by that is every relation that God can own, but then you are not to live in that; the mischief is that many live in their families or they live in their business.

Ques Did you say that it is given us for sacrifice; will you tell us what you mean by that?

JT Well, you have got something to give away.

Rem I suppose if you take a man of the world he is characterised by covetousness; God has made us to live in the Spirit and in that way we are saved from that principle.

JT The sorrowful part about the two — and — a — half tribes was that they thought Moab was a good place for their cattle. They thought of their business and they would stay there. It was all very well to leave the cattle there, it was the place, but why live with the cattle?

Rem I suppose if they had left the choice with God they would have had a portion both sides as they will in the future.

JT Quite so. All very well to go back to Moab to the cattle provided your living associations are in Canaan; if you live in your family, when you come to the assembly you are away from home; the meeting becomes a sort of duty. The two — and — a — half tribes went over to fight but it was simply a matter of duty; then they went back to Moab. There were only nine — and — a — half tribes in Canaan and the two-and — a — half tribes had to have an altar to prove their right to go up to the tabernacle to worship, because they lived in Moab. Where there is that sort of thing there are great pains taken to prove your right to be there. If we were always there we should not have to maintain our rights there.

^[p. 35] Ques So if you go back to the other side it is not presenting your body a living sacrifice?

JT No. I think presenting your body a living sacrifice means you are wholly at the disposal of God.

Ques Do you think that if we know what it is to go over Jordan we shall take up everything in connection with the plains of Moab and there will be a heavenly colour connected with it?

JT It is all well to go out of Canaan to see your cattle but be sure you live in Canaan.

Ques What do you understand by living in Canaan?

JT Well, there you come to relationships, the Father and the Son and the sons, you come to divinely formed relationships, there you are at home.

JS You mean “As many as are led” leads on to that.

JT I think so. That is the leading of the Spirit.

Rem As to yielding your body a living sacrifice.

JT I think you yield your body unqualifiedly: “When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools”. Ecclesiastes 5:4 If you assume that you present your body to the Lord, see that you pay the vow — that there is no reserve — you yield yourself to God.

Ques What is the difference between the circumstances you speak of in the wilderness and the circumstances you speak of as divine territory?

JT Well, coming in contact with the world as it is — it is adverse to you; but then your family things are not adverse, yet that is not the land of Canaan.

Ques So that the wilderness you speak of would be the adverse conditions?

JT Yes, the adverse conditions over which God does not assume to have any control, in a sense; but He supports you in them; so that His order and His character can be seen in it. When you come to your house, God’s support is there; God’s influence is ^[p. 36] there; you baptise your children, for instance, it is controlled by God in that sense, and the same principles hold good in your business, so far as I see. To assume that the principles of the world can obtain in your business and not in your house is all a mistake; the garment spotted by the flesh is to be hated.

Rem I suppose the circumstances can only be the wilderness in the measure in which they are taken up in the light of baptism.

JT Yes, the tabernacle supposes that. The coverings of the tabernacle suppose reproach, whereas the temple did not. The temple was glory, there was no evil occurrent.

Ques When you come to the land, is testimony connected with that?

JT I think the wilderness is the sphere of testimony.

Ques Would you take the thought of the one body as the wilderness?

JT Yes.

Ques What is the character of the conflict on the wilderness side of Jordan?

JT I think it is the flesh and the power of flesh in oneself.

Ques Do you not think the wiles of Balaam specially came in there?

JT Yes. I was going to say you have the accuser — the influence in heavenly places against you, then the teaching of Balaam who cast a stumbling block — the Moabitish influence — family relationships: relationships of this sort kept up in preference to assembly links — these things we have to encounter, and they have to be overcome. If Balaam could not curse them, he would seduce them.

Ques What is the difference between the relationships in which we stand in the wilderness and those of ^[p. 37] the land?

JT In Corinthians our bodies are said to be the members of Christ; we are said to be, although many, one body in Christ; that is to say, I think it works out in the way in which we regard each other — we hold each other in affection.

Ques Do you think the thought of formation comes in there?

JT Well, it is essential, you could not have the idea of the body without love.

Rem I mean if you take Romans, you have the spirit of sonship, but when you come to Ephesians you have formation that has taken place in connection with the presence of the Spirit.

JT Quite so. All that leads up to heavenly ground — our bodies are the members of Christ — there is a testimony in that way as to unity seen in our bodies — we being many, and the Corinthians are said to be locally the body of Christ — the character is there.

Ques What is the difference between the way sonship is presented in Romans and in Ephesians?

JT In Romans it is the Spirit rather, as has been said.

WB Is that in contrast to the thing itself?

JT I would not say it is in contrast to the thing, but it is not the fulness of it. That is, that God has predestinated us to sonship — the thing itself.

WG Is it by the Spirit you can understand heavenly privilege?

JT I think that is Romans. What a wonderful thing it is to see sonship — that is people led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.

Ques No public evidence, but a moral one?

JT I do not think sonship is for a testimony here; the point is what you are.

Rem A secret you cherish.

JT Yes.

^[p. 38] Ques You connect the idea of the body of Christ with testimony here?

JT Corinthians is that. Corinthians contemplates the body here; Ephesians is the body in connection with God’s counsels — the complement of Christ.

Ques Do you get assembly ground in Romans?

JT The assembly convened is not in Romans. As has been said, Romans brings in the man. The man that God can take up.

Rem You must have the man to go to church.

JT Exactly; so that a good Roman makes a good Ephesian.

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