ADMINISTRATION (8)
ADMINISTRATION (8)
JT It is well to mention that this will be our last reading in the Old Testament on administration. It is thought that there is need for four readings in the New Testament on the same subject. We should look at Daniel in order to consider the truth of administration under the government of God by the gentiles, as taken out of the position it had in Israel.
This chapter contains the basic facts relative to the times of the gentiles. What is before us now is that we might understand and learn the facts relative to the transfer of government from Israel to the gentiles. It is obvious that the great kingdom of Israel had degenerated, and that its rulers had failed. Hence God was obliged to hide His face from the house of Israel, so to speak, and to transfer the authority of rule in the world to the gentile nations. The Spirit of God would impress us with the sorrow that necessarily entered into these circumstances, especially as felt by Daniel and his companions. And so Jerusalem ceased to be the centre of government. It was transferred to Babylon, and later to the Persians, and later still to the Greeks, and then finally to the Romans where it is now. There could be nothing in a way more important than that we should understand these facts and see what part we have in them. Daniel and his companions afford the idea of a remnant of those who would adhere to the mind of God and carry the testimony through in a humble and almost secret way, such as exists at the present time and in which we have part.
JTJr Would you say that the direct government of God, therefore, would be in relation to Daniel? There was a direct communication to Daniel. Does Nebuchadnezzar stand indirectly in relation to the matter?
JT Yes; I think that is the truth. Therefore, God’s [p. 405] government in the world at that time was indirect; and it is still indirect. It is not as it was under David and Solomon, where He ruled directly. In fact, before there were kings in Israel there was what is called a theocracy. That is to say, God’s rule was direct, but it continued mediatorially in the kings, in the house of David and others. If there be any direct government today it would be in the assembly.
ANW Are Daniel and his companions representative of the saints today?
JT Yes. They really represent the remnant, and it was transferred to others after they died. While they lived they and others with them were the remnant. They have gone, but still the idea remains of a remnant among the nations, a remnant of the assembly at the present time as there was a remnant of Israel earlier. What is contemplated here was before the assembly historically; and the assembly coming in did not alter the position because the government of God is contemplated as indirect through Nebuchadnezzar and those that followed him. Christ coming in, and later, the assembly being formed, did not alter this position. The position remains what it was according to Daniel and will remain so until there is the heading up of evil. The beast and the false prophet will appear and will be supported by the devil. Revelation 13. When that takes place God will intervene and set up His government on earth again. It will be in a remnant for a while, but in due time the Lord will appear among them.
CN Is it important that Daniel refers to God as the God of the heavens?
JT It is important, because it means He is not outwardly the God of the earth. He is not seen in that character, but He has not given up the reins of government. He is over all and through all and in us all. The real thing lies in the fact that He is in us all; that is, in the assembly. That is where He is directly, but He has [p. 406] never given up His rights in the universe; even the physical universe is held and carried on by God. He is over all and through all.
AR Did the Lord recognise this in Pilate when He said, “Thou hadst no authority whatever against me if it were not given to thee from above”, (John 19:11)?
JT Quite so. It is important to note that God is seen here as the God of the heavens. We might say, that is His proper official position now because He has hidden His face from Israel. Christ has come in and a remnant from Israel has been gathered up in the assembly, but the great future now is direct administration in the assembly.
TEH We are exhorted to pray for “all men; for kings and all that are in dignity”, (1 Timothy 2:2). God would have us to pray for those in government.
JT Just so. It is not that God takes the place of being directly their God, or the God of the nations. He is, in a certain sense, the God of the nations also; especially in the gospel. But He is not that govern-mentally; His rule is indirect. And that is what we have to consider tonight and I hope we will get instruction too, because it directly affects everyone.
DP Is the Roman Empire the last of the world powers that will have to do with the assembly until the end?
JT Just so; the last one is alluded to here and is described as part iron and part clay. That is the present public means of divine rule, but in great deterioration. It is not the head of gold. What we have to consider and weigh is the difference between the first part of the image, the head of gold, and the last part, the feet of iron and clay. The image is of a man — a monstrosity — and yet God is pleased to recognise it, especially because of Nebuchadnezzar. He was already the head of gold when he had his dream: “Thou, O king, art a king of kings unto whom the God of the heavens hath given [p. 407] kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory; and wheresoever the children of men, the beasts of the field, and the fowl of the heavens dwell, he hath given them into thy hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all: thou art this head of gold”, verses 37, 38. It is not that he is going to be made that: he is already that; that is, Nebuchadnezzar is in the position of head of the system before he is converted, so that the thing was already inaugurated before Nebuchadnezzar was converted.
JTJr Do we have to understand how God uses these kingdoms in governing and dealing with evil? He deals with evil through them, does he not?
JT Yes: and what is to be observed in that connection is that although there is great deterioration from the head down, for the head is of gold and the next feature is silver, and the next brass, and the next iron, yet there is no diminution of the power. There is as much power, perhaps more, in Rome than there was in Babylon.
JTJr And the Lord recognised that when He said to Pilate that his authority was from above.
FHL Nebuchadnezzar had to recognise that the heavens do rule. Is that public position ever taken by the powers?
JT Well, possibly the nations that recognise the truth of Christianity in some sense recognise that God is in heaven, and rules as in heaven. Even the public assembly became corrupted and lost the sense of God’s rule from heaven — the heavenly side of the kingdom. That is the side that is presented here, that He is the God of the heavens, not the God of the earth.
RWS Would the fact that he who was the head of gold was converted, give God an advantage that possibly does not exist now?
JT I would say that very definitely, and hence the great change that has come about, because in principle the idea of democracy is not that the heavens do rule [p. 408] but the people rule. That is the idea, and of course it is a great departure from the head of gold. It is the mixture of iron and clay.
ANW The legs were of iron. Would the gold suggest majesty and would the iron in the lower section of the monster suggest strength?
JT That is important in a practical way because it has been demonstrated before our eyes that there has not been such military and other power as has been shown lately. There has been no diminution of the power, although there is deterioration in the quality from the very beginning, so that Nebuchadnezzar represents the more exalted side, and I suppose God thought it wise to come in and convert him so that he might give increased advantage to this order of government. The full thought, of course, awaited Christ, and the introduction of better conditions, but God is God, and He is merciful. He never forgets that men are men, and that He created them, and He would have to say to them, too.
EAL In chapter 2: 16, it says: “Daniel went in, and requested of the king that he would give him time, that he might show the king the interpretation”. Daniel recognised the king’s authority and then spoke to his companions and to the God of the heavens. He did not first speak to his companions and the God of the heavens. He evidently realised that the king should be recognised as the power and authority under God’s hand.
JT I think that is right, and he was concerned as to the whole position; that there might be a revocation of the decree to destroy all these men. I would think Daniel, in a sense, was with God in all this, because God is God of the nations, and He is God of humanity and in that sense He is Creator and His own distinctive character is to be seen. Therefore all these things come up. God is ready to act for men at every opportunity, and so this opportunity offers itself. Daniel is the intercessor,
[p. 409] because he would save the lives of his companions as well as his own life. I think we have to just bear in mind that God is compassionate at all times, and He would save the lives of these men. We have to begin with Daniel and his companions in this part of our subject and see what kind of persons they were. They were with God and were concerned about His holiness, and what was suitable in their own case, and what food they should eat. They would not be defiled by the king’s meat. All these things are basic. If we are to follow up the truth, we must take account of these basic thoughts. Daniel was a godly Jew, he does not belong to the assembly. We should first get from these facts that we are dealing with the Jewish remnant, and that God is taking them up. Isaiah says, “For Jehovah spoke thus to me with a strong hand, and he instructed me not to walk in the way of this people, saying. Ye shall not say, Conspiracy, of everything of which this people saith, Conspiracy; and fear ye not their fear, and be not in dread. Jehovah of hosts, him shall ye sanctify; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he will be for a sanctuary; and for a stone of stumbling, and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. And I will wait for Jehovah, who hideth his face from the house of Jacob; and I will look for him”, chapter 8:11 - 17. Now these circumstances are before us in our consideration of this subject. God has hidden His face from the house of Jacob. This is what Christ became. He was hiding His face from the house of Jacob but He would bind up the law and the testimony among His disciples. That was the prophecy of what would happen when the Lord came to earth. But now it is Daniel, and he is taken up mediatorially and entrusted with light, but he is with God [p. 410] and God is with him. That is the position in this chapter. He has taken up Daniel and his companions, so that it is not yet the time for the assembly. It may be applied, of course, as the remnant now, but we wish to follow the line of the truth in this book and it begins with these four men. It is what four men of this kind can be at any time and how God can take them up. But to follow the facts, it is Daniel and his three companions; and they get understanding of what the decree of the king was. He had dreams and visions and could not understand them, and he ordained terrible judgment on all the wise men of Babylon, and, of course, Daniel and his companions were numbered amongst them although he was one of the remnant of Israel and one who feared God. Therefore he was concerned that he and his companions should be saved, and indirectly that all the others should be saved too.
AR Christianity does not come into the book of Daniel at all.
JT Quite so. It is a book that deals with the transfer of the government of the world from Israel to the gentiles. That is the position in this chapter of the book.
CN Would you say that the testimony of God was bound up with these men in Babylon?
JT I would. There were others like them, but they are taken up in this peculiar way.
JAP In the second monarchy Cyrus orders the Israelites back to Jerusalem. How is he to be viewed?
JT It is the line of the four monarchies. He is the Persian, and God took him up as He took up Nebuchadnezzar. You might say that He converted him and therefore he was used of God to bring a remnant back to Jerusalem. Nebuchadnezzar did not do that.
JTJr What is made known to Daniel as to the seventy weeks alludes only to what concerns the earth. Messiah is cut off, but there is nothing said about the church.
JT [p. 411] That is right. We ought to pursue the thing as it is here to get right thoughts about it; so that the seventy weeks are timed. They belong to the time sphere on earth which is running on now. The last week — at least half of it — is still to be fulfilled. Messiah was cut off after sixty-nine weeks, and He has nothing; that is. He has nothing of the inheritance that is His, but He has the assembly. The seventy weeks have run on in that sense for all these centuries; but before the last week is fulfilled, the assembly is formed, yet it forms no part of the seventy weeks. When the final part of the seventy weeks begins to be fulfilled the assembly will be in heaven. She is to shine out from heaven in the millennium. The period of the assembly’s formation is the most wonderful dispensation. It is a sort of nondescript dispensation. It is not like any of the others. It does not refer to the earth properly. It is a dispensation from heaven enacted here on earth, the gospel and the assembly being the great thoughts in mind.
APf What is the effect of the direct government of God in the assembly and on the universal lords of this darkness?
JT The direct government on the earth in the assembly is the testimony for all the nations if they have eyes to see and ears to hear. There is such a thing as direct government from God on earth. Our care meetings are a testimony to it. He is helping the brethren to do what is right. “For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”, (Matthew 18:20). So that we get the real government of God among the saints who form the assembly.
APf Does it also restrain the power of the universal lords of this darkness?
JT It certainly is against them although they are still free. Satan is not yet bound. He is still in heaven and that is very sorrowful. He is going to be cast out presently. While the assembly is going on down here,
[p. 412] Satan is regarded as in heaven but the assembly is to take its place in heaven and he is to be cast out.
RWS Has not God used the war to have the testimony brought before the government through young men in order to show that God’s direct government is in the assembly?
JT Just so. These young men, some of whom we have here among us tonight, have been in our prayers for these last six years. They have shone like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego for God has helped them. They have shown that our prayers have been effectual. The more we take on the character of these four men, the more we shall understand our position, and how God will help us in these present circumstances.
FSC Is there anything on the earth today that represents the righteous nations of which the Lord speaks in Matthew 25?
JT The time for that has not yet come. The sheep on the Lord’s right are the saved nations. There are the saved on the right hand and the lost on the left. The lost are called the goats, and the saved, the sheep. That is a time yet future. The test will be, I think, the treatment of the Jewish remnant: “Inasmuch as ye have done it to one of the least of these my brethren ...” (Matthew 25:40). I believe the Jewish remnant will be the ‘brethren’.
ANW Administration is committed to the four young men in Babylon. Would they not maintain the rights of God in performing their duties?
JT You can see that, by what it says. Daniel interceded for them, and they were given a place with him in the administration of the kingdom. It says, “And Daniel requested of the king, and he appointed Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego over the administration of the province of Babylon”, (Daniel 2:49). That was, I suppose, the leading province in the kingdom. The administration is [p. 413] in their hands.
ANW When the rights of God are in question, they may have to go into the fire, but their administration would certainly maintain the rights of God.
JT And so it is that any of us in our businesses may fulfil righteous administration, and God is pleased with it. It is a testimony to our employers.
JTJr Do you think that the features of David and Solomon are carried forward in measure through these men into the place they had in Babylon? In a way, it would reflect the glory of what had passed.
JT It is remarkable that they should be so distinguished and honoured and yet be submitted to such cruelty as we see with the three in chapter 3 and later with Daniel himself who was cast into the den of lions. It shows how little you can rely upon politicians or statesmen.
AR In chapter 3, the first difficulty arises over a question of God’s rights over them.
JT Quite so; the favour of this second chapter is tested in chapter 3. But we have another great matter in the conversion of Nebuchadnezzar himself. But before that was achieved he was subjected to seven years as a beast of the field, showing how we are to fear God and how God would produce this fear and testimony among kings and rulers.
DP This system built up, in Babylon, is on the brink of disaster, and not one of the wise men is able to find a solution. Would it not remind us of how easily the world’s system can be dissolved?
JT Just so; presently we will see the fulfilment of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. The image will be ground to powder and blown away with the wind. One of the most solemn things you get in this whole book is what eventuates in the history of the kingdoms of this world.
ABP Is there a mixture of religion with rule in chapter 3, and is that what usually brings the test to the [p. 414] saints?
JT Just so; that is a good way to put it. The devil has these three men in his mind, and this is a religious matter. The king made an image of gold that was to be worshipped. How suggestive the allusion to Babylon is in the book of Revelation. It is the name given to a so-called system of Christendom. It should just be mentioned to bring out the truth. It is not at all insignificant that Babylon is the name given to this great system, now numbering, I understand, about 300,000,000 people. They are making a great show at this very time in Rome, and it represents this kind of thing in Daniel 3, where these three men are sacrificed and thrown into the fiery furnace. This system is capable of that if the political powers make a way for it.
APT What is the truth as to the end of chapter 2 where the king worships Daniel, and he is able to secure appointments?
JT It is really a question why Daniel did not refuse the worship. I suppose we will have to leave that, because I am sure he would refuse it ordinarily. It says, in verse 46, “Then king Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face and worshipped Daniel, and commanded that they should offer an oblation and sweet odours unto him. The king answered Daniel and said. Of a truth it is that your God is the God of gods, and the Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, because thou wast able to reveal this secret”. It is a question as to whether or not he is just a viceroy as a representative of God for the moment. It was said to Moses that he was to be God to Pharaoh. We should perhaps leave the matter as it is stated and just accept the position and the facts given. The king was saying the truth in a general way, and Daniel was for the moment representative of God.
CAM Perhaps the king’s attitude in reverence was a step towards his conversion.
JT It may have been leading up to that. I think the idea of representation is perhaps the [p. 415] most feasible.
Apparently Daniel accepted it without saying anything.
CAM I think that brings in a lot of light as to the matter.
JT I think it does. I have often wondered myself as to Daniel’s acceptance of what the king did, but what throws light on the matter is that the king asserts the truth as to God. “Of a truth it is that your God is the God of gods, and the Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, because thou wast able to reveal this secret”. He was attributing it all to God and I suppose Daniel accepted that.
CAM I suppose things are deteriorating so much that you would not expect this kind of thing now. The heads of the political world have not that intelligence now.
JT That is true. We have already remarked, and I think rightly, that whilst there has been deterioration in government, there has been the greatest evidence of combined military power in recent times that ever has been seen on the earth. So that there is no diminution of power to govern, but there is diminution of quality and there is very little respect for divine principles. There was this respect with Nebuchadnezzar when he came to submit to God after the seven years of terrible experience through which God passed him as recorded in chapter 4.
APT When you refer to power are you speaking of the enormous military power that was recently in evidence to put down what was unquestionably of the devil?
JT Yes. In the meantime government is, in the main, of God. God is using it, I would say. The present government that has been set up by the nations over Japan is of God. Certain right principles are enacted and enforced by the military government now in charge there. I would say that God is in that, so far. Why should we not attribute to God everything that is in any [p. 416] way favourable to the truth? As we have been saying, the present combination of military power is greater than we have ever seen before and for the moment we are thankful for it and pray God to support it, because it is in favour of the right.
ANW In what is transpiring now in this and other countries in disputes between management and labour you can see the iron and clay showing itself.
JT Just so. The clay is showing itself in unionism, but that is the situation and we have to leave it.
BT Would you link the attitude of Nebuchadnezzar toward Daniel in the end of chapter 2 with the respect that certain nations have today for the conscience of Christians?
JT Quite so, and as far as I know the brethren in this city and generally have thanked God for six years for the late President of this country and the Prime Minister of England and others like them who have worked together against the evil that came up in other lands. We have connected them with God’s governmental dealings.
JAP They are God’s officers and ministers.
JT Just so; the powers that be are called that. Therefore, we are to respect them and pray for them and submit to them. God is honouring the prayers of His people. And the brethren are getting free from trade unions, which is another great matter. Many are not free from them and, of course, that is a stain on the testimony.
APf Is the Russian government included in the Roman Empire?
JT No. It never was in the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was more limited than the Babylonian, although it had more power in the West. But I would say that Russia has a peculiar place under the government of God. The devil has great power in her too, but God has used her recently against the formidable evil [p. 417] power that arose in Europe. When Jerusalem is attacked Russia will have to do with that. In Ezekiel 39 Russia is seen as the attacking power which is caused to come up from the uttermost north. It never was part of the Roman Empire. We cannot ignore the fact that the Roman Empire is a dread one, nevertheless; but it is only a detail that Russia was never a part of the Roman Empire. She is seen at the end of the dispensation in chapter 20 of Revelation where it is recorded that fire comes down from heaven and destroys Gog and Magog.
SM You referred earlier to Satan being in heaven. The Lord says, “I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven”, (Luke 10:18).
JT The Lord Jesus told His disciples that He saw that Himself, showing how things were happening in view of His final position of governing the world. He saw that anticipatively for the power was there for his overthrow. But the hope is that the brethren will get the general idea that is in this chapter, of this monster as we may call it, which Nebuchadnezzar saw in the dream that Daniel explained. The explanation is given briefly in verse 31, “Thou, O king, sawest, and behold, a great image. This image was mighty and its brightness excellent; it stood before thee, and its appearance was terrible. This image’s head was of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of brass, its legs of iron, its feet part of iron and part of clay. Thou sawest till a stone was cut out without hands; and it smote the image upon its feet”. No human combination or skill — no scientific ability — was involved in the destruction of the image. It was divine power. “It smote the image upon its feet of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold broken in pieces together, and they became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, and no place was found for them. And the stone that smote the image [p. 418] became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation of it before the king”. This fourth feature — the iron and the clay — is running on just now and it will run on to the end. The destruction of it will be sudden as noted in the passage read.
CN Verse 35 includes the gold and silver and brass as well as the iron and clay, as broken.
JT It is one mass broken together; yet the gold is respected in Nebuchadnezzar.
CFE How do you look at the stone here? It becomes a great mountain filling the whole earth.
JT The stone would be a symbol, I think, of what is of God. It suggests what is permanent.
JHE You were saying that it is hoped that we would get the full thought of this. If we do, would we not break out in an exclamation like verses 20 to 24? It is poetic and could only be said by those that are in the good of what God is revealing.
JT It is very affecting to see how those three men had a prayer meeting, as you might say, in view of this awful thing. It says in verse 17: “Then Daniel went to his house” (it is remarkable that he had a house) “and made the thing known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions ...” ‘Companions’ is a beautiful word there. The Lord uses it Himself. Then it goes on to say, “... that they would desire mercies of the God of the heavens concerning this secret”. We see how complications can be faced at the present time and how we can get together in prayer, because this is nothing more nor less than a few brethren getting together in prayer, to ask mercies from the God of heaven. They did not have the link that we have. They were not taught to pray by the Lord Jesus, but they prayed.
FHL Does it suggest the prayer meeting in Acts 4? “Why are the nations in tumultuous agitation ... ?” (Psalm 2:[p. 419] 1).
JT Just so; only there the answer is instantaneous. The Lord taught them to pray, and we are taught to pray. It comes to one now what a beautiful thing it is that the remnant is seen here in these words. Praise was rendered to God Himself, first. “Then Daniel blessed the God of the heavens. Daniel answered and said. Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever; for wisdom and might are his. And it is he that changeth times and seasons; he deposeth kings, and setteth up kings; he giveth wisdom to the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding. It is he that revealeth the deep and secret things; he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. I thank thee, and I praise thee, O God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me already what we desired of thee”, verses 19 - 23. This should be a great encouragement to the brethren to get together, and that our prayers should embrace all these matters that refer to the government of the world because of their bearing on the assembly and assembly service. It lifts the brethren to a different plane altogether in that we have part with God in what He is doing as Daniel and these three men have here.
CN Would you say then that this section we have read is God acting directly with His people and for His people?
Yes; and they are acting for Him, because they serving Him. They are praising Him; they are carrying on His worship. In the end of chapter 4 Nebuchadnezzar came into the service of God. He is not in it in chapter 2; “And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto the heavens, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the Most High” (now he is linked, as a priest, with Daniel and the other three) “and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation.
[p. 420] to generation. And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? At the same time mine understanding returned unto me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my nobles sought me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent greatness was added unto me. Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of the heavens, all whose works are truth, and his paths judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase”, verses 34 - 37. It seems to me chapter 4 shows how the truth is spreading, so that even the king is brought into it. It might be said that in our times God has brought this kind of thing about, even though it be in a very faint way.
WWM What the apostle says to Timothy as to prayer should be in our hearts: “I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made for all men; for kings and all that are in dignity, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all piety and gravity”, (1 Timothy 2:1,2).
JT Quite so; and it works out, I am sure, in favour being shown us when we may not expect it. These men were cast into the furnace, but see the victory they had. The Son of God was with them. That comes into our times. The Lord is with us.
ANW When we pray for kings and rulers, we would not consider what denomination they belong to.
JT We do not pray for the King of England as head of the Church of England, although that is one of his official functions. We pray for him as being one of God’s ministers and so also the President of the United States and other rulers. We link up those in authority with God. They may not do it themselves, but we do it for them because we know the rights of [p. 421] God in government.
AR Paul, in speaking to the Athenians said that God “has made of one blood every nation of men to dwell upon the whole face of the earth, having determined ordained times and the boundaries of their dwelling, that they may seek God”, (Acts 17:26,27). Does that mean that the territory which each nation is allotted of God is designed to make it favourable for them to hear the testimony and be converted?
JT I think that is good, because Paul’s own word is “that the blessing of Abraham might come to the nations in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith”, (Galatians 3:14). God divided the languages at Babel, where Babylon began, and they remained where He put them. It was as if God impounded them and kept them by boundaries for the gospel to reach them. That is really the truth and it is a remarkable testimony to God’s grace.
SM Is that why it is said that the house of God is a house of prayer for all nations?
JT Just so.
SW There are qualifications which any ruler of a I land must acquire before he can fill such a position. Does it not work the same with us, that we must have qualifications before we can administer in the assembly?
JT We get a good example in these four men in Daniel. They really contain the roots of the whole matter subjectively, and there must be that with us. What God is doing governmentally, or dispensationally, must hinge on what the Holy Spirit is doing in the saints. That is where the testimony lies.
AR You have spoken of the prayer meetings of the saints as being the very centre of things.
JT I think that is so. It is illustrated in these men. Although they did not have the Holy Spirit yet they were remarkable men and point to godliness among the brethren.
EAL In verse 17 the Hebrew names are given,
[p. 422] whereas in the last verse of the chapter they are called by the names that the prince of the eunuchs gave them. What does the change of names mean?
JT It may indicate that God is coming now to respect the position of the gentile monarchies. They are acquiring more place with Him; especially in Nebuchadnezzar there is the idea of the transfer of government. God enlarged and elevated government in him, and gave it a great start, but the degeneration is very rapid until we get down to the iron and the clay. It is the idea of degeneration that one dreads, because we have to do with it now, and there is little or nothing of God in it.
RWS At times there seems to be a complete breakdown of administration.
JT It is remarkable how weak administration has become in the last year or so. The administrators are helpless in dealing with certain conditions. And, of course, that is something for us to think of, because things might get worse unless we keep going to God about them, because the degeneration is rapid and steady.
PC In praying for rulers and those in authority would it be right to include the leaders of trade unions?
JT I do not know that it would be right to recognise any such thing as that. That is not of God. While they may have part in politics we can hardly consider them as God’s ministers, but should they become statesmen they become representative of God in government for they have part in the State.
JHH In Romans 13 it says, “Practise what is good, and thou shalt have praise from it”, verse 3. Even though the government may deteriorate you practise what is good.
JT I think Paul treats of the subject abstractly. He rules out other things, and looks at persons in authority abstractly as representative of God insofar as they may be. The abstract idea is very often seen in Scripture and [p. 423] it helps us to eliminate other things from our consideration. God can do that.
DP The powers that be are making an effort to form a governing body. From what we have had before us, it would seem that their efforts will fail because the iron and the miry clay do not mix.
JT It would seem so. They are intimating that themselves. There is little hope for peace if they do not succeed. We should count on God that they may succeed, in measure, and give a little respite for the gospel to continue.
EAL Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar, “Thou art this head of gold”. Then it says that Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold. It was all gold.
JT Yes; I suppose the thing was really suggested to him in the great image of which he had dreamed, but he became religious and applied it to himself.
JTJr The power he had received inflated him.
JT Just so. We have already alluded to the great results finally reached in Nebuchadnezzar, and the pains to which God went to convert him. Doubtless the prayers of those four men had something to do with it.
JTJr He judged his pride at the end: “And those that walk in pride he is able to abase”. In Job it speaks about the king over all the proud beasts. I suppose Nebuchadnezzar was like one of the proud beasts before he was converted.
JT He was under the domination of Satan, you might say. Leviathan is a type of that sort of thing — king of all the proud beasts. Satan was lifted up in pride because of his beauty.
CAM I suppose the reason that many in authority are not converted, is because they are not willing to admit that they are beasts, as Nebuchadnezzar did. God has designated the Roman Empire, in the Revelation, as a very terrible beast, but pride would prevent admitting it, would you [p. 424] say?
JT Just so; the psalmist says, “I was as a beast with thee”, (Psalm 73:22). He judged himself.
DP Is an absolute monarchy God’s thought for rule?
JT It is, a limited monarchy is not of God but He is going on with such governments in His ways with men. The throne of grace is absolute, so that every person who is convicted of sin need have no difficulty in turning to God. The throne is absolute.
JAP We have been considering the God of the heavens, but when Nebuchadnezzar speaks about his conversion, he speaks of God as the Most High God. It is the same term Melchisedec uses in speaking to Abraham.
JT It is a term that refers to the millennium. God is Most High. He is Supreme. The term does not belong to our day, therefore in Acts 16, when the woman with the spirit of Python said, “These men are bondmen of the Most High God” she was simply the devil’s mouthpiece to divert attention to another day instead of the present, which is the greatest. We do not want to miss the greatest. The greatest day is the day of grace — grace reigns “through righteousness to eternal life”. Think of the magnitude of that.
RWS Do you think that conditions will get worse publicly before the Lord comes, or do you feel that as a result of prayer God might hold things in check?
JT I think that things are getting worse, and prophetic suggestions all point that way. This very prophecy gives a degenerating picture, and we are in the period of the worst part of it. We can see that government, represented in the head of gold, is not holding. It is not asserting itself. The degenerating spirit is there, and we need not be surprised if conditions get worse and worse.
RWS It is possible that the tide of evil may bring suffering [p. 425] to the saints.
JT The word to Philadelphia will help: “I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth”, (Revelation 3:10). The Lord says He is making a difference as to the saints, to keep us out of the hour of trial, so we are praying to the Lord to come.
DP The rise of communism and socialism are furthest away from God’s idea of administration.
JT Exactly, and these features are making headway. They are restrained somewhat. It is a comforting thing that “there is he who restrains now until he be gone”. The Spirit of God Himself is hindering, and then there is also that which restrains, which would no doubt include governments which are outwardly supporting Christian principles.
APT It says of Daniel, in chapter 6, that he had an excellent spirit. Would that link up with your remark as to what has a deterring effect on conditions in the world?
JT I would say he had a great influence. He had become known. In chapter 5, the queen-mother said, “There is a man in thy kingdom ...” She extolled him; and what a thought Darius had of him in chapter 6! Belshazzar made him the third ruler in his kingdom, but he was not enthusiastic about that. You can see how different his attitude was toward Belshazzar from what it had been toward Nebuchadnezzar, showing how servants make a difference in their judgment of people. If we were more with God about matters we should have a clearer judgment about people.
ABP The interpretation of Belshazzar’s dream is different from the interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. Would that be an indication of the deterioration of the kingdom — that communications concerning it were not as free?
JT Very likely.
ANW “And thou, Belshazzar, his son, hast not [p. 426] humbled thy heart, although thou knewest all this”, chapter 5: 22. That made the difference.
JT “That night was Belshazzar ... slain”. But the decree went through and Daniel was made third ruler in the kingdom.
APT What is said of Belshazzar ought to help young people in a meeting like this. His end is a solemn warning to those who have had godly parents and who are indifferent to what has been presented to them in testimony by their parents and others.