MANHOOD
[p. 160] MANHOOD
John 16:20 - 28; John 17:6; John 17:22-26
JT What is in mind is manhood in relation to the service of God. Here we have a man born, as entering this section of the Lord’s instruction; and then, in chapter 17, He speaks of the disciples as men. These chapters, from 13 to 17, are to be taken in relation to the Lord’s supper, John does not mention the Lord’s supper, but he gives us much more which stands related to it in the Lord’s closing words than the other evangelists, and he stresses manhood.
The Lord’s supper is intended to bring in the youngest believers as well as the oldest, and hence we have the new covenant included in it, the young being particularly in mind, that we should be free from Judaism, maintaining liberty in the service of God. No one having the Holy Spirit and walking in the truth is omitted from the Lord’s supper, although all may not be in the full thought in the service, for all cannot be said to be men in actual growth. It is in manhood that the full thought is secured for God, so that whilst the youngest is included in the service, ample room in the assembly is made for the greatest developments, and that is what these chapters have in mind, that is, manhood in the service of God.
In Deuteronomy, in conjunction with the instruction as to the three feasts — the Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles — we have the direction that all the males in Israel were to appear three times a year before Jehovah. This, in the antitype, would provide for freshness in the service of God. These verses read stress the feature of manhood, and the figure the Lord uses is to show that the instruction implied that the disciples should go through great pressure, but that it [p. 161] would culminate in a man, or a state of manhood: hence the joy that a man is born into the world. The opening chapter of the Acts, indeed the endings of the gospels, contemplate manhood. Christianity did not begin with the babe stage; it began with manhood.
JS Is that the reason God created Adam, “Man”? We get the full thought first.
JT That is right, he was not a babe, he never was a babe or a boy; and his wife said of Cain, “I have acquired a man ...” (Genesis 4:1) Babes are recognised later, especially in Exodus, but the introductory thought in Genesis is manhood. The service of God in Exodus contemplated the household; the passover stood in relation to the households of Israel, which included everyone in each; you eventually have that they all ate the same food and drank the same spiritual drink; so manhood is in view in the youngest babe in the household.
HDT Does this scripture show that we arrive at manhood through pressure?
JT That is what I was thinking of in proposing it; the Lord had in mind that Christianity should begin in manhood, and that involved pressure, contemplated in the allegory here. He went through pressure supremely for us, but they needed it, and so now, the pressure that is upon us is to produce something; God has something in mind to be produced. There has been a good deal of instruction for us: light as to fellowship, the Lord’s supper, and the service of God generally; the Lord has greatly helped the brethren, corresponding in a little measure with the light that the disciples had in company with Himself; but the pressure must come, you will not have the man without it.
HDT You mean that this comes at the end of the instructions from chapter 13 to the end of chapter 16? Is pressure the way by which we come into the good [p. 162] of ministry?
JT Yes. It is largely through pressure. Of course, “Jacob’s trouble” will involve the most awful pressure, but still it will culminate in manhood too. Israel will carry that thought out in the future, Christ will go through it with them in the character of David, and He will have His companions with Him on mount Zion, Revelation 14:1 “These are they who follow the Lamb wheresoever it goes”. That is manhood - a hundred and forty-four thousand standing with Him upon mount Zion, having His name and the name of His Father written upon their foreheads.
ESW The manhood of Christ was not attained in this way. It was by virtue of His Person in manhood that He sustained the pressure. It says, in Philippians 2:7,8, of Him, “taking his place in the likeness of men; and having been found in figure as a man, ...”. Would you say something about that?
JT Well, the first statement is that He appeared in ordinary guise as a Man, in the ordinary circumstances of men, in ordinary toil, and the like, but that is plural — “in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:7). It would mean that He did not take on any outward distinctive features in His incarnation; it was in the likeness of men, for God had no particular man in mind that He was the likeness of. He was in the likeness of men, which would represent their ordinary circumstances. He ate and drank and slept, and He worked as a carpenter — a touching thing He had the ordinary lot of a man in that sense; sin apart at all times, but He took His place in that way. It was the divine thought that He should appear in that humble way: He emptied Himself, taking a bondman’s form. Then, “having been found in figure as a man, he humbled himself” (Philippians 2:8): that was what was suitable to manhood as in testimony. I should say it is a trait of manhood, according to God that one should humble himself, and become obedient; obedience belongs to manhood. Christ led the way in all this, and hence we are enjoined: “let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus (Philippians 2:5)”.
ESW I was just wondering if that is the standard, and if you would suggest that we reach manhood through pressure, as having the Lord before us in this way?
JT Pressure is needed for us, clearly. Philippians speaks of His manhood in contrast with Adam — “did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God ... (Philippians 2:6)” The allusion there is to Adam, who aspired, through Satan’s suggestion, to be like God, but the Lord had that already, and as having it. He took on a bondman’s form.
CSS The Psalmist says, “in pressure thou hast enlarged me”, Psalm 4:1. Jabez prays for enlargement and “God granted him that which he requested”, (1 Chronicles 4:10). That prayer would be pleasing to God.
JT Quite so, he got enlargement from God, “God brought about what he had requested”. (1 Chronicles 4:10)
JS Does joy play an important part here? Whilst the pressure is real, yet there is the “joy that a man has been born into the world”.
JT Joy has a great place in these scriptures. That I hope will come into our inquiry. This thought of man is most important, especially now, because God has ordered pressure, and this affects the assembly, which is His supreme interest; the pressure is ordained of God to develop manhood. The thought was, that as the Lord arose He should find this, that there should be manhood, that the disciples should come into what is involved in this figure, have joy that a man was born. One can understand, as you take the facts presented in Acts 1, how as in the upper room, the brethren would humbly look around on one another, and Peter might say to John, Bartholomew seems to be getting on very well now; and other names might be mentioned in the same connection: the progress being regarded as the [p. 164] result of the terrible ordeal they had been through. They are now there in manhood. The account suggests a state — of manhood, to which the Holy Spirit comes; the Holy Spirit coming in would sustain that and develop it in all that would follow; but the thought was there, in the upper room. Every interest of God would be treasured in those whose names are given as in the upper room. Those who saw the Lord go up to heaven go into the city; that is where true manhood was.
RW The Levites were numbered from thirty years old and upward. Is that the thought of having a full stature?
JT Just so; the levitical side is present in the upper room, so that the time of the nursery had, in principle, passed. “The fulness of time” had come, the time appointed by the Father, they were in the state of manhood, and not in the nursery, the Lord left manhood here, and the pressure was the perfecting experience.
LCC Is joy the result of seeing manhood developed in its varied features amongst the saints?
JT Well, you can see yourself how it appears in certain crises: how you can say that a certain brother is getting on — the last sorrow he had was a finishing thing; the pressure had helped him.
JW Is manhood connected with “Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give you”? The Father answers men in this connection.
JT Well, the Lord had it in mind, “In that day ye shall ask in my name; and I say not to you that I will demand of the Father for you, for the Father himself has affection for you, because ye have had affection for me, and have believed that I came out from God”, John 16:27. The Lord goes on to say, “I came out from the Father and have come into the world; again, I leave the world and go to the Father. His disciples say to him. Lo, now thou speakest openly and utterest no allegory. Now we know that thou knowest all things,
[p. 165] and hast not need that any one should demand of thee. By this we believe that thou art come from God. Jesus answered them. Do ye now believe? Behold, the hour is coming, and has come, that ye shall be scattered, each to his own, and shall leave me alone; and yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me (John 16:28 - 32)”. That would happen, and what is in mind here is that there should be manhood through the pressure occasioned by it. The beginning of the Acts shows that manhood was there, and joy consequent upon it.
M Was it their companionship and their identification with Him that produced the pressure, and so developed the manhood?
JT Yes, they saw true manhood in Him, they accompanied Him; and when it was needed that an apostle should be appointed, the requirement was that he should be one of those who assembled with them during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among them, from the time of the baptism of John until He was received up. That, we may say, is the whole history of manhood in Christ down here, and the disciples were cognisant of it; the light had been in their souls, but the pressure brought the effect of it out. Left to themselves for a while after the Lord ascended, it was seen in them.
M You said that manhood was there before the Holy Spirit came. One was inclined to think it was the Holy Spirit that produced manhood.
JT Manhood was there, Christ left it here. In us now it is by the Spirit, but the apostles and others who were with Him were formed in a special way while the Lord was here.
JSK While the pressure may remain, the joy no one shall take from us, the Lord says, verse 22.
HW Is this the great point the apostle Paul had before him in his labours and conflict, to present [p. 166] every man perfect in Christ?
JT That is right — every man perfect!
HW According to the apostle Paul’s ministry it would involve their intelligent appreciation of the mystery.
JT It would. Paul makes much of manhood, he takes it up with the Corinthians; they were babes. He says, “I brethren, have not been able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly; as to babes in Christ. I have given you milk to drink, not meat, for ye have not been able, nor indeed are ye yet able; for ye are yet carnal”(1 Corinthians 3:1 - 3); and, “we speak wisdom among the perfect (1 Corinthians 2:6)”. Hence the importance of selecting brothers to attend special meetings; the more advanced growths are the ones to be there, because there is thus more scope for the Spirit in them. There was very little scope for the Spirit in Corinth, but evidently there was in Ephesus; there is no limitation in Paul at Ephesus, for he was able to announce to the saints there “all the counsel of God”, Acts 20:27.
FAF The expression here, the Father — “I go to the Father”-would be a great one, would it not? The Person Himself, rather than the relationship. The relationship is there, but “the Father” implies God as revealed at the present moment.
JT He is revealed in that relation, that is John’s way of presenting the truth. Of Christ, John says, “we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father(John 1:14)”. Then He is the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father; that is that Person, as you say, but that Person in that relation, that is, it is God known in grace.
EGH Do you suggest that assembly travail is necessary for the production of manhood?
JT Well, quite so. It really took that form, it was a collective thought, they all went through it; the Lord accredits them with having gone through it, and the man was the product, it is really what was there in the [p. 167] way of love and intelligence in the apostles. Take the example of Peter in chapter 6, for instance: “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God (John 6:68,69)”. That is a manly thought expressed, and no doubt the Lord valued it in that sense. Again, when the Lord says of Lazarus, “let us go to him”, (John 11:15) Thomas says, “Let us also go, that we may die with Him”, (John 11:16). That is manly. John gives you such touches. Yet the finishing thought was in the peculiar pressure of Gethsemane, involving Christ’s death, and all the suffering connected with it; the Lord’s activities on the first day of the week, after He arose, were to gather up all that. His appearing to those going to Emmaus brought it out, for they returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven and those with them gathered together. The Lord gathered up all the elements of manhood, and it was in the assembly, that is the idea. Luke gives the idea of the assembly, and John gives the persons who formed it; the Lord coming in, as Luke records, shows the assembly was there. And John’s account, chapter 20, shows the message had gone in before the Lord, and when He came and stood in the midst, the disciples had the doors shut; legalism was shut out, Judaism was shut out. Their hearts were affected in that way-to the exclusion of the Jews, and the Lord came in, and they were glad to see Him. He says, “Peace be to you (John 20:19)”. They were required for a commission, as He had had a commission: “as the Father sent me forth, I also send you (John 20:21)”. He does not send out babes. He sends out men. All this instruction shows that in principle, at least, manhood was there.
EGH The demanding or asking, is that the function of a man?
JT Yes, demanding indicates that manly qualities were there, speaking on equal terms, as it were.
M What hindered the Hebrews from arriving at this point? The apostle says, “when ... ye ought to be teachers, ye have again need that one should teach you”, Hebrews 5:12.
JT Well, manhood had been among them, they started with it. He enjoins them to remember their leaders, who had spoken to them the word of God. They were men, the reference being to the apostles.
HDT Is there a possibility of having pressure without this being realised? Hebrews 12 rather contemplates that they had sunk under it, without it being used to produce this with them. I suppose we may go through circumstances without the spiritual gain.
JT Hebrews would show that there had been plenty of pressure on those addressed, and hence circumstances for the development of manhood, but clearly the Jewish believers had not progressed. The contrary is the fact indicated. When they should have been teachers, they needed that one should teach them what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God. A babe, the writer says, is a person who partakes of milk and is unskilled in the word of righteousness; whereas full-grown men partake of solid food and on account of habit have their senses exercised for the discerning of good and evil. They began with the most perfect testimony to manhood, why did they degenerate from it?
FW Does growth enter into this at all?
JT It does, as we have been intimating. Perfect manhood was there in Christ, and the apostles grew up in relation to Him, and the pressure brought it to culmination. Thus as the Lord arose He gathered up all, and the results were seen on the first day of the week, John indicating that the meeting was late in the evening — the suggestion would be of a full day’s results. Correspondingly in Acts 2 they were all together in one place, with one accord; there is no thought of discord at all, for there was manhood: the Holy Spirit came tothat.
[p. 169] AJD Does the whole service of God in Ephesians have this in view?
JT Exactly, “until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man (Ephesians 4:13)”. It is that we should be no longer babes; the working of the body, its self-building up in love, depends on this.
I should say that all pressure divinely ordered has manhood in view, but the Lord sometimes sends special pressure such as the present, and what will be the outcome of it? We may think of it at the moment as a disaster, but what will be the outcome for God? That is how we have to regard it. He may see the need of it among the saints, we have considerable light, but are we formed by it?
ESW What you have been saying would indicate to us the necessity of cultivating the features of manhood before the pressure becomes severe, so that we may be enabled by that means, in subjection and patience, to go through it intelligently and be formed after Christ.
JT That is right, so that you do not give way in the pressure.
EGH Is the thought of the woman here, in connection with the travail, to show it is not merely an acquirement of the mind, but it is a constitutional matter?
JT Yes. It is a maternal thought, having the result stated in mind. It dates back to the garden of Eden. Undoubtedly, the travail had manhood in mind when it was first imposed. When Cain was born. Eve said, “I have acquired a man with Jehovah (Genesis 4:1)”.
EGH Asking the Father, verse 23 — does that imply you are free from self-consideration and linked up with the interests of Christ? Is that manhood?
JT I think so. The Lord is intimating what manhood is all through here. “Verily, verily, I say to you, that ye shall weep and lament, ye, but the world shall rejoice”. Weeping and lamenting are elements belonging to manhood; the world rejoicing — just the opposite. “And ye will be grieved, but your grief shall be turned to joy”. That is transformation — grief turned into joy. You do not take any short cuts when pressure is on, devices of your own to get out of it, and alleviate it by manipulation; you go through the thing. Your grief shall be turned into joy, that is complete transformation, it is a divine process. Grief turned into joy; thus we do not want to turn away from grief, it yields well!
AJD Does that bring us into line with the thought of the new man?
JT Quite so; that is the process largely through which he is formed.
JS Do you think that in the manhood state we joy in tribulation because we know the results?
JT Well, that is what God works out after a person has peace with Him: “we have also access by faith into this favour in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God. And not only that, but we also boast in tribulations, knowing that tribulation works endurance; and endurance, experience; and experience, hope; and hope does not make ashamed, because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which has been given to us”. That is, such a person has light, and does not want to be without any of these elements; they are workers for his blessing; and so you cannot afford to turn away from grief, for it turns into joy.
HD Is there any relation between this and the first sign — the water turned into wine?
JT Well, quite so; the Lord says, “Fill the water-vessels with water. And they filled them up to the brim (John 2:7)”. I suppose water thus presented represents the full thought of cleansing in the believer; the Lord turns it into wine.
ESW The grief here appears to be connected with [p. 171] the consciousness of the absence of Christ - missing Him from this world, whereas joy is connected with His presence. “I will see you again”, He says.
JT Quite so, “ye will be grieved” — that would be because He would be arrested and taken away from them, and the sorrow connected with all that, but then that grief would be turned into joy.
CT In connection with the grief, it speaks of her joy. Would that connect with Philadelphia at all: it says, there, “I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial”, Revelation 3:10?
JT Well, yes; here the hour had come for them; it was an arranged thing, the Lord deliberately went to Gethsemane, He went there; it was the place of pressure; the word indicates it. He went into the place of pressure and He brought them with Him; He would have them to go through it, so He put some here, and some there, to watch. They go through the thing, but they do not go through it very well, but still the process went on, and something was accomplished.
CSS The three men in the fire, Daniel 3 - the Lord was with them.
JT He was with the disciples in the pressure, too. The Lord took them into Gethsemane; the word is not in John, but it is in Matthew and Mark. He went with them to the place, and there never was such an hour of pressure. “And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to be sorrowful and deeply depressed”, Matthew 26:37. He had in mind that they should go through what He was going through; and there would be sorrow at His death. Think of the anxiety that they must have had, especially the women; the anxiety that they had when the Lord was actually dead! All this was in the Lord’s mind when He spoke what we have read in John 16.
FW Are we to look at assembly exercises and crises from this point of [p. 172] view?
JT I think so. We must have been through them to know what is implied. The Lord has graciously preserved us from great scatterings, for many years now, and it seems to me as though He allows other things, other heavy pressure, because we need such discipline, whatever the form it has. Scripture would indicate that we have to go through pressure if there is to be manhood, consolidated manhood.
FW You were remarking that we are not to take short cuts in order to modify or eliminate the pressure; matters have to be faced and gone through with God that Christ may be produced; is that the idea, and joy would be the result?
JT Quite so; Paul speaks about Christ being formed in the Galatians, but he had the travail, whereas they should have had it; he was travailing again, because of the retrogression; he wanted to bring them back into manhood.
ESW The present crisis taken up rightly would tend to consolidate the saints, would it not? Internal dissensions tend to disrupt.
JT I believe that is what God has in mind, that the light we have been receiving should become formative, God helping us through the pressure.
HDT Would you say that this section has the service of God in view, not only the testimony?
JT I would say the service of God the Father is in mind. So in chapter 17 He alludes to the saints as men. “I have manifested thy name to the men that thou gavest me out of the world”. The Father’s name is manifested: manifested in Christ; and He that hath seen Him hath seen the Father.
Rem Seeing Him in manhood they saw the Father.
JT It required manhood in them to see what was there. So He said to Philip, “Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me,
[p. 173] Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father” (John 14:9); manhood would discern that.
AJD It is manifested in manhood, and therefore it is for men, for the formation of men.
JT Quite so; the Father came into their range in a Man, that is the idea; the Father’s name is manifested.
FI When we come together “in assembly”, I suppose we should be free of the pressure before we take on the service of God, because we would have the Lord in our midst.
JT Quite so. The pressure does not come into the heavenly service.
FI I was thinking that; I thought the pressure would touch us as individuals to bring us to manhood, so that when we come together “in assembly” we are able to take on the service of God.
JT That is right, and so in Nehemiah. In assembly service the pressure is not to be there; it is a spiritual state of things that we come into, and what is suitable to it should be carefully in mind, and all that is contrary eliminated. Nehemiah 8:9 - 12 illustrates how sorrow is at a certain time prohibited: “And Nehemiah, that is, the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that explained to the people, said to all the people. This day is holy to Jehovah your God: mourn not, nor weep. For all the people wept when they heard the words of the law. And he said to them. Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions to them for whom nothing is prepared; for the day is holy to our Lord; and be not grieved, for the joy of Jehovah is your strength. And the Levites quieted all the people, saying. Be still! for the day is holy; neither be grieved. And all the people went their way, to eat and to drink, and to send portions, and to make great rejoicing. For they had understood the words that were declared to them”. That is a feature of manhood, that you understand what governs a particular position, and [p. 174] you eliminate all else. Grief would be right otherwise, but not here.
JS-k Would you say the assembly coming together is on the ground of resurrection — that could not admit grief?
JT Well, we do not come together exactly on the ground of resurrection, we come together in the wilderness, but we come together in the power of the Spirit as anointed. We are thus enabled, as understanding what is suitable to a given time, to eliminate all that is not suitable, hence we are not to carry our griefs in there. We are to leave them outside, the Spirit enabling us to do so, that we may be entirely free for the assembly, and ready to receive impressions that are for the assembly; and joy is one of the leading things — the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
EGH The thought of the Lord is that we should all be joyful. In chapter 3 there is the bridegroom’s voice; it brings in joy, and then we come on to chapter 16 — manhood: is it completed in chapter 17?
JT The Lord gathers it all up in His prayer. These elements that you allude to, build us up to this. It is remarkable how much of joy we have in the Scriptures! Here it is on account of the fact that a Man has been born into the world, the Lord extending it to the disciples: “but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one takes from you”; and again, “ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full”, verse 24. I believe all enters into the assembly, that the service is to be a joyous occasion, suitable to the Lord. One says, “how I went on with them to the house of God, with the voice of joy and praise, a festive multitude”, (Psalm 42:4). To come into the assembly with a downcast countenance and a heavy heart, is not honouring to the Lord.
FI The basis of our coming “together in assembly”
[p. 175] depends upon the glorification of Christ, and we being occupied with Him in the place where He is, there would be no sense of pressure or sorrow; we should be filled with His glory.
JT Quite so. So throughout the closing chapters of the gospels that is what you find, the relief that the pressure has gone, and it is now joyousness in the power of the Spirit, and that is what the Lord is looking for.
GH The Lord when He met some of His disciples on the resurrection morning said “Hail!” — I understand that means “O joy”.
JT He said simply, “Hail!” Yes, joy would enter into the primary meaning and agrees with what is before us. The Lord is, as it were, saluting them. Mark gives the darkest picture: at first the disciples did not seem equal to anything as the Lord rose from the dead; even the women are unequal to the position, they are full of fear; but in John’s gospel the disciples are glad when they see the Lord, they are ready for it.
TSMcG When that end is reached, is joy ministered to the heart of God?
JT Well, joy suitable to the assembly will result in praise to God. Of course, as soon as you return to ordinary circumstances there will be trials to face, but in the assembly it is dishonouring to God to bring in these depressed conditions.
AJD There is an issue to pressure when we come together in assembly, so that God can get His portion.
JT Yes; we are able by the Holy Spirit to lay aside what would hinder, although right in other circumstances. The assembly is the divine residence by the Spirit.
JS-k Whilst it is in wilderness conditions, we have power to come together in liberty. We have power to lay aside the grief and all else that occupies us in the ordinary sense, we come in “from amongst the dead”, so to speak.
JT We get on to resurrection ground, as you said, and heavenly ground, too, but the Lord’s supper is neither; it is in the wilderness, where Christ is not, that is the idea. If He comes in as the risen Man and the heavenly Man, that is where the ground is changed. We come together in the wilderness, but we come together before He comes.
TSMcG We remember Him as away.
JT That is right; we are where He is not, but as soon as He comes in, the ground is changed in principle. Then it requires that we should be brought to His side, so that we are with Him, entering into His thoughts and affections and responding to them. We have to understand that when He comes in, the ground is changed; it may take time for us to come to it, that we should be amenable to Him, but the principle governing the position should be accepted at once.
JS-k I had in mind Caleb and Joshua - when they were in the wilderness they carried the thought of the land in their minds.
JT Yes. You may have the greatest riches in your treasury, but you do not bring them all out at once, you bring out what is suitable to the wilderness position first, and when the other phases come in, you are ready for them; but in no phase has grief any place, it is to be left outside altogether.
FWW The dominical side of the supper would help us in appreciating deliverance from what is adverse.
JT You mean the authority of the Lord; quite so; and I believe that the reference to the new covenant in the Lord’s supper is to augment that, that whilst the authority of the Lord is there, there is liberty: “where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty,(2 Corinthians 3:17)” but it is still the Spirit of the Lord — authority is there.
ESW Would you say more as to the exclusion of [p. 177] Judaism by the new covenant? What form would Judaism be likely to take amongst us as gathered together for the service of God?
JT Well, when the Lord sat down with His disciples at the time He introduced the supper, they would be held by Jewish principles, they would stand in that relation, and so it is now. There is much Judaism now; many of us have come out of human organisations, and Judaism is the principle in them, if not heathendom and idolatry; therefore we are apt to bring that into the assembly; and I think the idea of the new covenant is to wither that up. In earlier days brothers coming in to break bread used to kneel down individually and pray. Well, that was a religious habit, that was Judaism; and other such evidences of Judaism were recognised. Well, the new covenant enables us to lay all that aside; it is not necessary to the service of God. You come in by the power of the Spirit, and sit down. The Lord placed Himself at table, Luke 22:14; that is an example, we are to be there suitably.
CSS Would not a prayer meeting also be a scene of joy?
JT Isaiah 56:7 says so: Jehovah says, I will “make them joyful in my house of prayer”. Further, “in thy presence is fulness of joy, at thy right hand ... pleasure for ever more (Psalm 16:11)”. As already quoted, the Psalmist says, “I went on with them to the house of God, ... a festive company (Psalm 42:4)”. Even the thought of the house gives joy.
HDT In the Acts, after the apostles had suffered, and were feeling the pressure of things, they lifted up their voice in prayer to God, and according to His promise He made them joyful in His house of prayer Acts 4:23 - 35.
KAA Is the end of this exercise seen in the glory in the last scripture read?
JT It was in mind that we should touch on that,
John 17:22 - 24: “And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and that thou hast loved them as thou hast loved me. Father, as to those whom thou hast given me, I desire that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me, for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world”. Your thought is that these glories here are to occasion joy?
The Lord begins with the word “men”, those the Father gave him; they had kept His word; they were really men, because that is a trait of manhood. “They were thine, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept thy word”. What He says of them indicates plainly that they were men from His point of view. And He further says, “And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one”, verse 22; and then He asks that we should be with Him, to see the glory that the Father has given Him, verse 24.
NKM Would you say another word as to that glory?
JT Well, it seems to be peculiar to Himself, connected with the love with which the Father loved Him before the world was. It is a glory which links on, I think, with the glory which He had along with the Father before the world was. It is evidently a glory only to be seen by the saints, not shared, as connected with the love wherewith the Father loved Him before the world was.
HDT Could it be described as a connecting link between His place in Deity and His place in manhood for eternity?
JT It seems so; it seems that whilst we cannot compass it, we can see the link between Him in manhood [p. 179] and what He is in Deity, because in verse 5, it is Deity: the glory that He had along with the Father before the world was. The saints are brought to the edge of abstract Deity, of infinitude. We cannot compass it, of course but we know it is there; we are conscious of that. It is most touching that the link is practical, for the Lord says, “I desire that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me, for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world”. That is, a thought that existed before the foundation of the world is linked up with what we see. I think the language is to develop love, as the medium through which we come into the greatest things.
FI Does it give emphasis to what is said later — “the love wherewith thou hast loved me”?
JT Well, I should think so, that that might be in us, you get some little glimpse of it in that we realise something of the love wherewith the Father loves the Son, for that love is to be in the saints.
ERC Is the development of intelligence and love involved in manhood?
JT Yes; we may have in our minds the idea of an impassable gap between us and abstract Deity, but I do not think that is intended to be conveyed in scripture. I think love is the link, and whilst we are still creatures we have access to what is infinite, we are conscious of it; for our Priest has “become higher than the heavens,(Hebrews 7:26)” and that belongs to the realm of Deity.
M The Lord makes much of unity in that particular passage, saying, “that they all may be one”.
JT Well, that is part of the great divine scheme. We were saying lately that the mystery involves immensity; all the saints from Pentecost to the coming of the Lord are included in it. The measurements in Revelation 21 indicate its largeness, but they are symbolic, you cannot follow them literally, a solid cube [p. 180] of persons, viewed thus; it is a spiritual thought, a substantial thought. But the mystery involves all saints from Pentecost to the coming of the Lord; it is one organically, meaning that everyone is in his place. Think of the vastness of it! Myriads of saints all functioning in relation to one another, not merely so man persons, but an organism, all functioning in relation to one another; it is beyond anything that has ever been suggested, the creation is secondary to it. How vast it is! and wonderfully formed, too; it is formed of persons, persons contemplated in this chapter; men who are one, made one in love and intelligence. We are to be one through the glory that He has given us, the glory the Father has given Him. The brethren would do well to ponder the vastness of it and the quality and variety of its composition and formation. How can I fit in it? I can function, perhaps, in the local features of it, but can I fit in and function in the heavenly city as presented in the Scriptures? I believe all this is in mind in the Lord’s prayer here: “that they may be one, as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one and that the world may know that thou has sent me”; and again, “And I have made known to them thy name, and will make it known; that the love with which thou has loved me may be in them and I in them”.
HDT Would you say a word on the thought of “in” — as thou, “Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us”?
JT I think the preposition would imply operation. The Father and the Son are operating. I think these verses involve the mystery. There is a great operative mind controlling it; all worked out in love.
HDT “I in them”, verse 26. Is it thus that He makes known to them the Father’s name? He says “and will make it known; that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them”. That [p. 181] is, entering into the sense of what is seen in the Father in relation to Himself; and we have part in it.
JT That is right, the love being in us gives us scope in relation to Him. Hence the prayer of the apostle Paul “that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts, being rooted and founded in love”, (Ephesians 3:17). The love being there, there is scope for His operations.
AJD You were saying we are brought near to abstract Deity in this chapter. Would that be that we are brought into all the fulness of God?
JT Well, John 17:5 connected with verse 24, to which we were referring, links the glory that we are to see in Christ with the Father’s love for Him before the foundation of the world. It was suggested that our nearness as with Christ, verse 24, and the glory that we behold is because of love and its operation. The glory which Christ had with the Father before the world was, and the love which the Father had for the Son before the world was, are linked together; and the glory which we are to see as with Him stands in that connection. There is immense privilege for the saints and richness of thought generally in these wonderful verses.
HDT Paul in Ephesians 3:20 says, “to him that is able to do ...” There is power to bring us into these things.
JT Just so. It is according to the power which works in us.