DIVINE CONFIDENCE IN THE SAINTS
DIVINE CONFIDENCE IN THE SAINTS
JT What is in mind is to look at Matthew from the standpoint of the divine confidence placed in the saints under given conditions. It seems to appear in this gospel peculiarly because of the administrative truth that enters into it; confidence is seen, I think, throughout. The Lord says at the end, without stating any condition, that He would be with them always, and Joseph, in chapter 2, seems to represent what can be confided in divinely: he qualifies in his uprightness, he is entrusted with the Son of God as a Babe. He had not only qualified in a moral way beforehand, but the history shows that he was equal to the trust, taking the Child and His mother into Egypt and coming back and employing vigilance to protect the Child. I suggested these verses because they bring all that thought into assembly administration; what the Lord says involves reliability in the assembly, and then in the “two of you”. Verse 20 seems to bring in the thought of help in answer to prayer; the Lord being in the midst of the two or three, “For [p. 263] where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”.
WW In regard to a person who would not hearken to the voice of the assembly, the Lord says, “Let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer”. I had looked upon that as involving that, if a person disregards the voice of the assembly, he stands as one unfit for Christian fellowship and not to be walked with, is that so?
JT Yes, exactly. It is a matter taken up severally by [p. 254] each one of the assembly; it does not go so far as what the assembly does, the Lord does not tell us what the assembly will do, it is what you or I should do, and that is how the reliability works out; that each of us sees to that; that one does not think of oneself as more gracious than others, in perhaps making up to the man and making much of him, exercising what might be called grace towards him. I think each individual is addressed, and unity is maintained, and reliability is seen, in each one maintaining what is right in the matter; no one lagging behind the others, no one failing in due recognition of the assembly’s place. We are to be concerned as to maintaining the assembly in its dignity, what the Lord places on it; it is a great matter, each one is to support it. It is a question of reliability in these cases. Sometimes various opinions arise, and the assembly becomes despised through what is done by some.
DLH Is not the assembly the vessel in which the full grace of God is set forth today?
JT I am sure that is right, and any action of the assembly should have that in mind. Unless we can show unmistakably that there is any want of grace in its attitude or service or administration, the point is to be loyal, I think; let the assembly, as acting for God, stand out in its dignity as heaven’s representative; heaven having full confidence in it. The Lord does not suggest a question as to any error on the part of the assembly, either as to this, or as to the binding and loosing.
DLH Is not the point that, if the full volume of divine grace has been set forth in the effort to gain the individual offender and has failed, the case is hopeless, and the offender is regarded practically as a heathen man or a tax-gatherer?
JT If you put the “if” in there, that is, you say. If the full volume of grace has been shown, and in one [p. 255] way we ought to, as allowing for our weakness, but the Lord does not contemplate that even.
ESH Does the care meeting come in here?
JT It is not mentioned at all; it is the offended brother and the offender and the witnesses, two or three others, and the assembly. The Lord, in divine wisdom, leaves the “if” out as regards the reliability of the assembly; it only refers to the offending brother, it is applicable there. It might apply to a care meeting, but it is any two or three who are gathered together unto the Lord’s name. I should not exclude sisters from the “two or three”, or from the “two of you”.
PL It is love’s obligation to be the custodian of the integrity and inviolability of the throne in the great vessel of rule.
JT Loyalty to the assembly’s position and heaven’s confidence in it enter into this on the part of each of us. The “thee” would be any one of us, and if each one is true, then there will be no differences of judgment, or of attitude towards the erring one. I think we ought to keep in mind that abstractly the assembly is reliable and the saints are reliable, for we are entitled to look at the saints in an abstract way. John’s account of the first visit of the Lord to the saints after He arose shows this and does not involve any discrepancy.
MWB Love would not weaken the action of the assembly, nor detract from the confidence that would be rightly placed in it.
JT It would not, the assembly is right in the abstract; details do not alter that.
Ques Would the assembly be representative of God in that way in relation to the matter?
JT Quite so — what a great thing that is! How can heaven confide in something here aside from reliability? The position of the assembly is abstractly right, but that is to be proved by the way in which each person moves, by what is there.
[p. 256] EuR When you speak of the two or three being of the assembly, have you in mind that the gates of hades cannot prevail against it?
JT Yes, how can the gates of hades prevail against this?
Ques Has there not been a tendency at times to judge of things too hastily? The last thing some have done is to enquire.
JT Yes, we had a case like that recently. The saints said they did not know what the basis of the action was, in another town. They are their neighbours, and the thing had happened two years ago. Why did they not go and find out? Were they sure of what they were objecting to?
ASL This would be an individual matter; one has trespassed and the matter is gone into. What would be the position of such an one in regard to the assembly?
JT There is a sequel to all this, and that must be gone through with, all the thees come together. The matter is settled as regards the assembly, the assembly status is maintained, let us not darken or becloud that. The dispensation is lost if the assembly’s position is not maintained abstractly; we must arrive at that in some way or all goes; if we are loyal we shall.
PL So that a divergence of judgment is nothing short of a thrust of the foe against this vessel.
JT It is the same as an attack on Christ.
MWB Would you regard this course as normal to every kind of offence, of sin, in the early stages of dealing with it? I was linking it with. Thou shalt not suffer sin to remain on thy neighbour. “Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart; thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him ... . thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself”, (Leviticus 19:17, 18). So, if sin is in any way in evidence, would this apply to the initial way of dealing with [p. 257] it?
JT It indicates that great care is to be taken to avoid taking it to the assembly; then, if it has to be taken, to have all the facts, so that reliability is reached. Then there is binding and loosing. Prayer is the next thing based on two of you agreeing, prayer is taken account of, that must underlie the reliability expressed in the assembly. Then, “where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”. The position is thereby fortified and secured by the Lord being in the midst of the two or three gathered together to His name.
Ques Whilst administrative judgment is not referred to, does it involve that a person who is judged to be unfit for the assembly is as one of the nations or a tax-gatherer? You would not walk with that person?
JT Quite so. Heaven watches what happens. You meet him on the street — what are you going to do? Then another brother meets him — what will he do? Heaven is looking on. Are all true? Reliability is placed in the assembly. Are all protecting what the assembly says? For we ought to see what Matthew has in mind that, Christ having gone from the scene (although Matthew does not say He ascended), the whole position now involves the assembly. We must never lose sight of it, though it may be an abstract thought.
JMcD Would Paul’s appeal to the Corinthians to remember that they were God’s temple, and that the saints shall judge the world and angels, be an endeavour to give the assembly its right place in their minds?
JT Quite so, and it says, “Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened” — (1 Corinthians 5:7)not as ‘ye might be’, but “as ye are unleavened”. I think that helps, for the old leaven would interfere with the working of the assembly.
Ques Does the “two of you” suggest the quality of the assembly — reliability of that kind?
JT That is right, that they agree and pray.
[p. 258] Ques Is that agreement connected with assembly matters only, would you say?
JT I should think so, whatever would affect the assembly.
AB Would the two agreeing suggest the way the process is reached? Things might be obscured in the early stages of the matter, but they are pursued till there is an agreement reached?
JT Yes. We are to get underneath what may be more or less confused. The idea is to bring out the basic features of the assembly, what can be reckoned on; what heaven can confide in. We must consider how heaven is affected and how the Father is regarding all this. “Whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens”. The Father has something in that, in the two, that is the “two of you”. These are the kind of people that heaven is relying upon, but then they depend on heaven, they depend on the Father. How will He help? I think the “two of you” is the explanation of how it comes about — “it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens. For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”. That is their resource.
WS So that the Lord has His part in any judgment of this kind. He has taken on the matter as those together are really in line with His mind.
JT Yes, the disciples understood how He used to be amongst them, coming in and going out, as Peter says. He was ever accessible and ready to help.
HDT So that nothing would be arrived at without Him.
JT No, they would not have arrived at any matter of importance without the Lord, when He was here. The “for”, it seems to me, links on with the prayer of the two. Things come round that way; the Father will work in answer to the asking, and then there is this [p. 259] resource, the Lord known in the midst of the two or three. The whole principle of the dispensation is set aside where there is disloyalty, and yet there are those who think nothing of questioning a thing instead of going to the root of the matter.
MWB The “for” casts the lustre and power of verse 20 over the preceding one.
JT That is right.
JSE Does the word, “gathered together unto my name” involve the thought of loyalty you have referred to?
JT Quite so, it is loyalty to His name. It would challenge brothers who have a fixed judgment before a matter is put to the assembly. The Lord is there and He would have the last word. Do not be too sure of your individual judgment before the meeting; it would be better to wait a bit.
JSE Have I not to learn that, in an assembly matter, I am not entitled to an individual judgment?
JT You had better wait and let the Lord have the last word, leave it open in your mind.
Ques Ought there not to be some consciousness of the presence of the Lord? It is not merely abstract.
JT It is “in the midst of them” If it were simply “in the midst”, as in John 20, you might leave it open, it would be a more general thought, but it is in the midst of them, it is those very persons. The Lord came in and went out amongst them. We have known it before, they would say — and things would be settled, the Lord’s very presence would elucidate the matter.
Rem It would determine our behaviour when together.
JT Yes, often a word would settle the matter; He might use you or any one.
PL Would it be like the glory appearing at the door of the tabernacle in various crises in Numbers?
JT It would. One has often seen it — you have, I am sure — how matters [p. 260] are settled.
PHH If you tell the assembly, there will be some judgment forthcoming, for it immediately says, “if also he will not listen to the assembly ..”
JT Yes, there will be a judgment, the Lord had nothing less in mind than a perfect state of things down here. We must begin in the abstract for that, but it is there, there is no “if” at all, it will happen. It is very comforting.
PHH One of the young men telling Abigail about the difficulty with Nabal would be in a way the same principle.
JT Quite so — put the information where it belongs. She represents the assembly there in type, the young man was loyal, he understood the position. He was not a “Nabal” man, he was an “Abigail” man, he was loyal to her, for she comes in as Samuel dies, she is presented as qualified, having a good understanding, and the young man knows where to put the matter.
HDT Do you mean her introduction as Samuel dies involves that judgment continues?
JT Quite so. Samuel moved in circuits — they are ended, but there is an Abigail; and that is what the Lord would bring into Matthew, and it stands. Telling the assembly involves the assembly being specially convened. You wait to hear what the assembly has to say — whatever it is. It is formally stated that the assembly has ears. Acts 11:22, and it is communicated to by one who may be regarded as an ear; and of course the ear is not everything, there is the seeing also as we get in the figure in 1 Corinthians. You must have the whole idea of the five senses and you must convene the assembly for that. The Lord does not say. If it says the right thing, but what it says is to be listened to. The Lord is bringing out what the assembly is administratively. Let us not talk about things being obscured; let us understand what He has in His mind and how the thing is to be verified. Can it be verified? Is there such [p. 261] a thing? The Lord has been working all these years, to keep the assembly, as it is in His mind, and that we might be loyal to it.
Ques Would you look at this in an entirely local way?
JT Well, the assembly is never looked at as administering, save in a local sense. The assembly is brought in first, then, in verse 19, the “again” would provide for what may be done by the “two of you”. John 14:23 brings it down to one person, he does not speak of the assembly formally, but it has, I believe, the same result. It is not lost sight of, but Matthew is dealing with two.
EuR If there are fifty or five hundred in a place, every brother or sister would need to test their relations as to whether they are in this character toward every other brother or sister.
JT Quite so, heaven is looking for those two.
DLH Is not that a great encouragement to any godly person who is exercised about assembly matters that, if there is a case that involves one’s brethren, spiritual persons are encouraged to come together and make it a matter of prayer before the Lord as connected with His interests?
JT I am sure that has often been verified in our experience, and then we have the way it works out: the way heaven answers, taking account of this principle of gathering together in My name. We are coming round to a sort of Millo-rampart, citadel of power, 2 Samuel 5:9. They are gathered together there, Satan cannot get in there at all.
MP Does that involve love? Love and judgment go together, there is nothing inconsistent between love and divine judgment.
JT What can you leave out? You have the Urim and the Thummim there and you have the military position there; the Lord will be anything that is necessary.
MWB [p. 262] Would the thought of one being put in ward be that the mind of the Lord might be known?
JT Quite so, and the priests would be there too. You do not get everything here, but you get the Lord in the midst of the two or three — what will He not be there? He will be what is necessary.
LDM Would power come in in naming the thing? “As his name is, so is he” (1 Samuel 25:25) — Abigail named the thing.
JT Things should be named, and room made for everything that is right, we are not to be afraid of offending one another, for confidence is the underlying thing. If the Lord is there, whatever is right you can say it and there will be power in it. The Lord says, I will give effect to anything that is right, I am here to serve you, but you are doing it. You must have power here to carry out heaven’s behests. See what a circle you have — “where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst” — what can He not be to us? The Lord can be anything to us that is necessary, and you are at perfect liberty to say what is right.
CH “Whatsoever ... they shall ask” — that involves the saints understanding what may be required in any exigency.
JT Quite so, we are brought into a wide sphere. As things are said that are right, the Lord is there to support them.
WC Would it be like Moses, king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people were gathered together, Deuteronomy 33:5?
JT Quite so, he had plenty of room. Aaron and Miriam were not whispering about that coloured woman, they could not open their mouths there where he is king. David said, “I am ... king over Israel” (2 Samuel 19:22), and the Lord is king where two or three are gathered together unto His name. The Lord wants what He is saying to stand out in our souls, that “where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”. A loyal man says. Well, all is settled there, we need not have any anxiety about the matter.
HDT It does not mean, I suppose, that enquiry about the matter is not to be made in certain cases, but the basis would be that abstractly the assembly is right.
JT Yes, exactly, a great deal has to be brought in if we are to meet current happenings, but I think the Lord would have us to see the dignity of what we are speaking of. The next thing is, the matter is laid before the Father and that settles the whole thing. What will happen in detail we have to wait for; this brother and that brother say something — that is right, and the Lord is there and giving effect to it through what is said.
HDT So Jehoshaphat said, “Be strong and do it, and Jehovah will be with the good”, (2 Chronicles 19:11).
JT Quite so. “I am with thee ... in all places whither thou goest (Genesis 28:15)”. Heaven has confidence in a man or in a company of persons like that.
EuR Must we not be prepared at any moment for the Lord coming in with His countenance as the sun? We must be ready for everything to come out, and not be deterred by exposure. Revelation 1:16.
JT Yes, and we have in the same book, the woman clothed with the sun — Christ is reflected in us.
MWB Will you say a little about the expression, “gathered together” being used instead of “assembled”?
JT There is a sense of power operating in the word “gathered”. These people are gatherable, the Lord can act on them in this way; in going to the meeting place we find there is something operating.
PL Would it be seen in the book of Ruth? Boaz says, “Thou, such a one, turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside and sat down (Ruth 4:1)”. [p. 264] Were they gatherable?
JT Quite so, they had no question about it.
PL Naomi says, “the man will not rest until he have completed the matter this day” (Ruth 3:18) — nothing left over.
JT Quite so, you can see what influences were operating there. Naomi had the thought of something happening, and then she knew what would happen following on that, and it did happen. He (that is, Boaz) went into the city, Ruth 3:15 — that is the idea, and everything happens, there is no discrepancy at all.
PL So would our gatherings of this kind bear on the love matters of Christ and warrant His having confidence in us, that we should be allowed to handle His affairs.
JT It is a great matter to see the influences that are at work. Sisters are brought into it, they influence their husbands. Spiritual instinct in a sister helps greatly, and all that enters into this word “gathered”. Influences are at work in the saints so that they are together as gathered. It is a condition involving the influences that have been at work to bring this about. The matter will be settled when these brothers or sisters sit down together. That word “gathered” takes the place of “you”, they are gathered. Take that young man talking to Abigail, what influence he has! Look at his face, listen to what he says, that man is under right influences. Satan has nothing to say to that man, he is shut out. People may come in and say, I am not sure of that judgment, but the matter will bear investigation. In Matthew here the Lord is among them as qualified by heaven. He has taken a form for that purpose. The thing is carried out, as you might say, by the One who made the universe. The Lord in the midst of two or three has taken a condition in which He can be anything necessary for the moment, whatever it be.
GAL Would the intervention of angels be more than providential?
JT [p. 265] Well, they ministered to the Lord in an hour of weakness in Gethsemane very intimately. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?” (Hebrews 1:14). They would have power over your body as you come into a meeting to keep you right. All these good and blessed influences are at work.
HDT That word “strengthen” in Luke 22 has the force of strengthening or giving power inwardly. I thought it is rather remarkable it should be said of the Lord that an angel appeared to Him from heaven to strengthen Him.
JT That is interesting and helpful. You cannot limit them. We know they see the all-various wisdom of God worked out in the assembly, but their services are very intimate. You come to a meeting with a bad headache, perhaps, but you are helped and able to take part. What a triumph that is!
PL They may be peculiarly active at the moment amid the present turmoil, allowing our gathering together.
Ques I would like help as to the force in Hebrews 12 of the angels being spoken of in the way they are. “Ye have come to ... myriads of angels, the universal gathering (Hebrews 12:22,23)”.
JT It is the general thought, I think, of their service — the large number — it is the general thought, they are functioning in relation to one another, they are not simply isolated. What is seen in Hebrews 12 is the great spiritual system that God has in mind that we have come to now, anticipative of course of what will be literal in the future, but the great function of the angels is in mind, they are acting in a systematic way, and we can reckon on them never to fail in what is needed. It strengthens us greatly, they are ready to serve us now, they are sent out for ministry on account of those who are heirs of salvation, so they will not [p. 266] miss anything, we shall find the help they can give us.
PL The word to Daniel is that Michael is your prince: does that bear on this?
JT Certainly. Gabriel is a priestly angel and he knows what to do; Michael does, too, but they work together.
MP There is a passage in Zechariah in which one angel says to another, “Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited (Zechariah 2:4)”. They are concerning themselves as to Jerusalem.
JT Quite so, it is remarkable how intelligent they are.
Ques In Daniel 10, Michael and others are active in relation to the kings, and one comes to tell Daniel. Would that be in the providence of God, in relation to the legislation in the various countries of the world? Do you think that would show the intervention of angelic power on behalf of the saints?
JT Quite so, acting on men, in functioning. It is very comforting. Those things in Hebrews 12 are thus intelligible to us, they enter into our calculations and prayers.
HDT It says of Daniel that he was in a deep stupor and the angel touched him and set him up. Do you think the thing was overpowering and he was strengthened physically by angel ministration to take it in?
JT Quite so. The man is hardly able to stand up to take the thing in until the angel helps him. “Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!” (Daniel 12:12) — waiteth and cometh to it. The Old Testament makes a good deal of angels. The law was given by the disposition of angels, an angel came to Gideon, but then it was Jehovah. The whole Mosaic system was supplied by angelic means, but now things come through Christ,
[p. 267] but angels are not set aside, they are sent out - not simply acting according to Hebrews 12 — but sent out on account of those who shall inherit salvation. An angel would be always interested in an heir of salvation, he knows him.
PL Do they not afford, in their unjealous character, a model for us? Having acted in such a distinguished way in previous dispensations, they are now ready, in this one, to take their appointed and relatively inferior part; the assembly having the great place in it?
JT In regard to angelic service we have in Matthew 1:20 “an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream”, and tells Joseph what to do — “Fear not to take to thee Mary, thy wife, for that which is begotten in her is of the Holy Spirit”, and he tells him more, and then in chapter 2, we have, in verse 13, “they having departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appears in a dream to Joseph, saying. Arise, take to thee the little child and his mother, and flee into Egypt” (Matthew 2:13); and then again, verse 19 says, “Herod having died, behold, an angel of the Lord appears in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, saying, Arise, take to thee the little child and its mother, and go into the land of Israel(Matthew 2:19);”. Now I think that chapter shows us how they come into our times and how intelligent they are, and if we have come to them, as we have — the universal gathering — they are called upon to operate accordingly; we count on them, for scripture shows plainly enough how they are available for service in connection with the testimony.
JSE The Lord says He could have asked His Father for more than twelve legions of angels?
JT Yes, and the Lord says, too. Their angels do always behold the face of My Father which is in heaven — these little babies. See how well we are cared for!
JSE Is it right to link the angels with the rights of God in government as associated with Matthew?
[p. 268] Would this line of truth in Matthew set us free from being merely passive when a matter has to be faced?
JT I think so. The mind of God is going through whatever it is, it is as sure as anything.
JSE There is nothing presented in this section between the lawlessness of the offender and the loyalty of “thee” — “let him be to thee ...”
JT It brings each one of us into the thing. Loyalty will soon show itself.
PL These test cases lay bare the absence, or presence, of assembly fibre.
JT That is what the Lord’s words here indicate, I think. He would cause the assembly to stand out and test every one. “Let him be to thee”. Who is the antecedent to “thee”? Is it the offended brother only? I think not. I think it is anyone of the assembly, every one is tested by it.
HDT Every one is to keep rank.
JT That is what it means. I do not want to be disloyal to the assembly.
EuR Was the woman of Sarepta on the line of assembly fibre?
JT Yes. She is first of all directed from a wrong channel of thought. She thought to eat and die, but the prophetic ministry puts her on the line of life. Then the prophet comes in and the meal does not run out, so she is really material there. She is like most of us, not prepared to move at the outset, but still there is something there in the abstract that prophetic ministry will bring to light; prophetic ministry is what God is using now to put our minds on right lines. We must never lose sight of the thought that there is such a thing as the assembly.
EuR If moral questions are faced and cleared, there is in result a little cake in every locality.
JT Quite so, and it is. Make it for me first; when he saw her moving he said that, and she did not question [p. 269] it, but no doubt if he had said that to her as he met her first, she would have questioned it. It is not abstract now — it is made. The little cake is something tangible. The prophet’s rights are considered.
HDT You mean a concrete expression of the real thing — the assembly.
Ques Would the Lord have reliability in mind in the end of Matthew 4 when He selected the fishermen?
JT Yes-”I will make you (Matthew 4:19)”, not ‘If I can I will make you’. He knew what they were and what they would be.