THE FULNESS (2)
[p. 152] THE FULNESS (2)
John 1: 16; Ephesians 4: 13; Ephesians 1: 22, 23
JT Our subject this morning has been the fulness of God; and now we have the fulness of Christ. These scriptures suffice to show the features of this side of the subject. First, the fulness as available to believers, “For of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace”, John 1: 16. Then it is the “measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ” (Ephesians 4: 13), which is a standard for us at which we are to arrive in the unity of the faith and knowledge. Then finally in Ephesians 1: 23, the assembly is said to be Christ’s fulness. God “has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all”. We may consider the subject in that order; first, the fulness of Christ being available to believers so that we receive of it, and then that the measure of the stature of it is a standard for us to arrive at, and then the place we have in that fulness. That is, the assembly is said to be the fulness of Christ as filling all in all, so that she has a great part in this subject.
GJB Would you say this is finality?
JT It is the subject in its finality. The verse in Ephesians 1 shows the setting of the coming world when Christ is to appear as Head over all things to the assembly. It is finality in that sense. The assembly has a great part in it, for it is His body. Evidently the idea of its being His fulness is in the fact of its being His body.
GJB Is this the end of His ways with the assembly?
JT It is testimony, I think, running on to the millennial state of things and merging in the eternal state of things. The assembly has a great place with [p. 153] Christ in the future, as she has in testimony now, and it lies in the fact that she is His body; she has a peculiar place as His body.
JD What precedes the first scripture you read is, “full of grace and truth”; then “of his fulness we all have received”. Would that be the fulness of grace and truth that was seen in Him, taken note of by believers?
JT It seems to be the apostle’s words, for he says, “We all have received, and grace upon grace”, and then he adds, “for the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ”, so that is what is in his mind. It would be, therefore, that feature of fulness that meets our need, grace meeting our need and carrying us through, for there is no limit to it. It is “grace upon grace”, and it is spoken of here from the standpoint of experience, for the writer speaks of the experience of others, the reception of grace upon grace.
LES Would the bearing of the thought of fulness we are now considering be linked up with “when the fulness of the time was come”, Galatians 4: 4?
JT That is another phase of our subject, “the fulness of the time”. Time has a fulness which we see a little of, but it enters into what we are saying now. The fulness of time alludes to the introduction of sonship as over against minorship. It is really a lesser thought than what is before us, for we receive sonship. It is not the fulness of Christ, but fulness of time.
JD Does the thought of Father and Son in John 1 enter into the fulness of grace and truth? It is said, “We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father”.
JT I think so. It is an antecedent of this. “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth”,
and then “of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace. For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ”.
HG-h What has been brought in in relation to this Person is going to remain.
JT That is right. The verb is singular, two ideas merging in it; “grace and truth” being one idea, one perfect blend in that Person. So that we should not alienate truth from grace, but grace comes first, because it is a question of man’s need. The presence of the Son of God here on earth must of necessity raise the question of need. How is it to be met?
LES Would Matthew 18: 21 enter into this “grace upon grace”: “How often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him?”
JT That is how it works out in us. There is to be no limit to it. “Grace upon grace”.
HG-h Grace having to do with our need, it suggests the assurance that we shall be carried through.
JT It is a fixed thing; “grace and truth subsists”, it says. It is not that grace has ceased in its effect in us, otherwise there would be lapses in our history. It is “grace upon grace” received, so that it becomes one history of drawing upon this inexhaustible reservoir of grace. Then “grace and truth” are one idea, fixed in Christ. So that grace will not be exercised without the experience of truth. “Subsists” is a singular verb, showing that they are not to be separated at all. They may act separately, as they do. Grace is the first thought, but truth is always there. It must come in.
JLF Is that the thought of the word subsists; making it one thing?
JT The thought is that the singular verb makes it one idea. Grace may operate by itself, but truth is never to be overlooked. It is always to [p. 155] be in mind.
GJB It is a continuous flow, is it not?
JT Yes, according to the need. He puts it here that it is received, so that it is a tangible thing. John has that in mind. Grace is not a theoretical thing, but tangible, and the speaker says, “We have contemplated his glory” and received His grace, and it is “grace upon grace”.
JD Would the reception of it in our case be connected with what He gives in Ephesians 4, “But to each one of us has been given grace”?
JT That is the idea. There, however, it is gift. He is really looking in Ephesians 4 at the idea of gift to the end that we might arrive at the thought of fulness as a standard. We ought to arrive at the thought of fulness as a standard, and then we get some idea of fulness in the saints, how the thing applies to the saints. It is as we see the thing in Christ and arrive at the idea of the fulness of Christ.
GC Could we connect it with Psalm 84: 7, “They go from strength to strength: each one will appear before God in Zion”?
JT That is good. Another potent thought is “from glory to glory”. So that you have “grace upon grace”, “glory to glory”, “strength to strength”.
CSP Would these scriptures speak of the fulness of Christ, especially emphasising His manhood?
JT I think they do. It is a finite thought, not that we ever forget the infinitude of Christ personally, but when we speak of a standard at which we are to arrive, it must be a finite thought.
MDF So that we are not only taken up in grace but we need grace all the way through.
JT It is the history of grace really, and it has different branches, as “Let us approach therefore with boldness to the throne of grace” (Hebrews 4: 16), all opening up the subject in detail. John presents the great thought of fulness of Christ, and he has experienced it and others, not once or twice, but indefinitely. “Grace upon grace”, it is a continuous thing; wherever the need is. He is ready to meet it.
JD In man’s activity there might be the tendency to run grace beyond truth, but your thought is that these two elements enter into the constitution of believers, both are blended.
JT You have the grace of the dispensation maintained in your soul. I believe that is included in what they were saying in the meeting at Jerusalem when the Lord came in, “The Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon”. Simon would say, ‘That is one of the instances that He appeared to me. Why should He appear to me? It is to exalt the idea of grace’. That is what they were saying. There is a great sinner and the Lord appeared to him first. He needed grace, not at that juncture because he was not then denying the Lord, but he needed grace and the Lord made a point that there was a flow of it to him.
JLF What would you say was the difference between “full of grace and truth”, and “grace and truth subsists”?
JT It really is that it is the prominent thing. The word ‘subsists’ would mean that it is sustained. All things subsist through Him. He maintains everything, but this is the particular thing that John stresses which you would expect, because he is dealing with christianity, and “grace and truth subsists”. It is a fixture. It is a question of Christ being able to maintain them as over against the law given to them by Moses. The law did not subsist in Moses; it did not subsist in any tangible way, but was written on the tablets of stone. But here is a reservoir of grace in one Person, and maintained in one Person.
RRT What we are having is just another aspect of the greatness of Christ. When here He was a [p. 157] Person great enough for all the fulness to dwell in Him, and now this grace is of His fulness.
JT Yes, and He makes the thing available to man. How wonderful is the skill of it, for according to Colossians, the divine fulness is brought within man’s range, in Christ bodily. Here we have the detail of it. The first thing mentioned is what meets need, the direst need is met; that is what is in the apostle’s mind.
WGH Is this the primary application of the fulness?
JT That is right. The application of it, but it is Christ’s fulness, not God’s fulness. It is the working out in an administrative way of what was there as He was seen baptised in Jordan. He is baptised and the Spirit comes down in acknowledgment from heaven. He is anointed and there is a voice heard saying, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight”. John is giving account of how that applies to need here, to poor sinners. Here he says we have received it, so that it is a tangible, known thing. Surely every christian ought to be able to speak that way of Christ. We were speaking this morning of what we say about Him. This is Paul’s side of the matter. John does not record that. He shows that any christian ought to be able to give some account of Christ, and of His fulness as it is applied, how it meets human need; and what a fine gospel text it is.
LES Paul would have a great impression of it, as in 1 Corinthians 15, where he refers to the Lord, and says, “Last of all ... he appeared to me also”.
JT You would feel that. ‘I was not deserving of it’, he would say, ‘because I had persecuted the assembly’, but he could measure up with Peter, who would say to him, ‘Well, Paul, I feel like that; I understand, because I was not deserving of it either.
[p. 158] but the Lord appeared to me also’; they knew that was the idea of grace.
JF Is this the exemplification of the Old Testament word, “Loving-kindness and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other”, Psalm 85: 10.
JT Yes, a very good scripture as entering into it.
JD Would that passage in Titus 2: 11 come in, “For the grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men has appeared, teaching us ...”. This grace of God carries with it salvation, and the idea of teaching enters into it here also.
JT That is another thing, the teaching of the grace which carries with it salvation for all men. That is a very fine statement. Who carried it? Christ carried it, but grace is personified. It is a wonderful feature of the dispensation. It has appeared and it carries salvation, but then it also teaches. A very important side that we should have the teaching of grace.
CSP Would you say something on the activity of grace.
JT What was said in the meeting at Jerusalem when the two from Emmaus arrived, indicates that they had some inkling of how matters stood, that there was to be an administration of grace. Grace is to reign, it teaches us; the position is that “Grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”, Romans 5: 21. He is the instrumentality of it. Not “in Christ” there, but through Christ, and I think the administration of it involves the kingdom. So we see how it heads a great system; it is absolute, grace is on the throne.
CSP The psalmist says, “Grace is poured into thy lips”, Psalm 45: 2.
HG-h It is stated here, “For of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace”. Is that [p. 159] part of the fulness?
JT It is part of the fulness, it is not all. Grace is part of it and stressed as the thing that meets our need. We are sure to speak of it first because christianity, from the standpoint from which we are viewing it, means that there is no reserve with God, that it is a final state of things, the last word, and meets conditions for you, and specially here, so as to culminate in eternal life. That is how it is set out in Romans. We all are to be characteristic christians. No doubt John speaks of himself, and he and others had direct contact with the Lord. They had to do with Him in a way no others had, but they speak of it, as if it is characteristic of christians. I think that we all might learn as we go on, that this is all a practical thing. We are christians; we have to do with christians who know very little of these things; let us convey something of the fulness that there is blended in the order of things we are in; there is an abundance, and we testify to it because we have received.
LES The administrative side in John 20 is in keeping with it, “Whosoever sins ye remit” comes in first.
JT That helps. John is for the last days, whereas Matthew 18: 18, binding and loosing, is for the beginning of things. “Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven”. John looks towards the last days and has before him the loosing of souls by the Spirit. The Spirit knew many of the Lord’s people would be bound up in human organisations in the last days, and that need is to be met in grace at first, not to convict them of sin exactly, but to occupy them with grace first, because there is so much that we have in common with our brethren in these organisations around. It is well to occupy them with the grace side first.
MDF Christianity is the result of [p. 160] grace.
JT I think that is what is made clear. He appeared to Simon, and Paul says, It is that grace reigns through righteousness. It is not righteousness reigning, but grace through righteousness. Grace is first.
RRT If that is true, what was so delightful to God in this blessed Person, full of grace and truth, from whom we have received grace, will come out in us delightful to God.
JT So that there is evidence of fulness. I think the idea of extension of what was in Christ is well to keep in mind. It does not say, ‘In whom I have found all My delight’. The voice did not say all; I think God in heaven left room for the extension of Christ in His people, leaving room for the body.
JLF Is grace reigning through righteousness a moral thought or does it have reference to the millennium or some special time?
JT It is the present time. Romans 5 is “through ... Christ” and Romans 6 is “in Christ”. Grace is the way you are divinely taken account of, however guilty you may be, however bad you may be. God would say to you, ‘I know that you are bad, and you know it too, but there is forgiveness with Me’; of course, the parable in Luke 7 illustrates it beautifully: having nothing to pay he frankly forgave them both gratuitously, knowing the amount of the debt: “Her many sins are forgiven”. The Lord did not minimise them. That is a wonderful expression of grace, and the woman knew it. She would say with John, ‘Amen’. The sisters can always say that, whenever anything is said you know is true in your own experience, always say, ‘Amen’.
JF Would you say that grace is expressed in the millennial order of things?
JT It is, of course, but it is more particularly now. Romans brings a man in guilty.
LES Paul says, “But the grace of our Lord surpassingly over-abounded with faith and love, which is in Christ Jesus. Faithful is the word, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. But for this reason mercy was shewn me, that in me, the first, Jesus Christ might display the whole long-suffering, for a delineation of those about to believe on him to life eternal”, 1 Timothy 1: 14 - 16.
JT Yes, there you have one man speaking from experience. He was an insolent, overbearing man, and he can say, ‘I am the chief of sinners. Grace has over-abounded toward me’. It is very fine when you get persons speaking experimentally; even if they do not speak in the assembly, they can say ‘Amen’ to confirm what is being said in your own experience. ‘Amen’ is the confirmatory word; that is what it is for.
RRT In that sense there is an Amen in Luke 4: 22, “All bore witness to him, and wondered at the words of grace which were coming out of his mouth”.
JT Quite so. “Bore witness to him”.
JD Coming back to grace reigning, it says in Romans 5: 21, “Even as sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”. Has that to be experienced in the souls of God’s people?
JT Every christian ought to be able to say that. It is the effect of grace upon us acting of itself in supreme dominating ways. He could do nothing else. It is the idea of reigning; grace is on the throne.
JD So that the apostle could say in Galatians 2: 19, “I, through law, have died to law”. He had died to law by the application of the law to himself.
JT Yes, then grace reigning through righteousness, in the same soul, where death reigned on the [p. 162] principle of law; there grace is reigning with a view to eternal life. It is the great end in view. I think the history of christianity on earth makes history in heaven. Every effect of grace upon earth affects heaven in a peculiar way, even in bringing about repentance in the soul. One of the most interesting things we can think of is what heaven is thinking about, and is affected by. What occurs down here from the standpoint of grace is the extension of Christ and the flowing out of His fulness. What a thing christianity is, the resources that are there.
Rem Grace says to me, I know exactly where you are.
JT Yes. “Come, see a man, who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?” John 4: 29. That woman would say, ‘He knows all about me’. Those men knew the kind of woman she had been, but the Lord knew also. He brought light into her soul. What a sense she had of it as having met the Lord Jesus.
RB Would you say here is the conscious reception of grace, and there would be the bearing of like fruit?
JT That is the effect of it. Then it begins to teach you as has been remarked. Grace teaches us; that is, it regulates us and sets everything in order in our souls, and we know the why and wherefore of things.
RB Does it bring responsibility upon the one who has received grace, that he should show it unto others?
JT Exactly. That is what the Lord said to the man in Decapolis, “Tell them how great things the Lord has done for thee”, Mark 5: 19.
RB The Lord, in Matthew 18, speaks of one who had been forgiven, but would not forgive another who owed him something. The Lord takes up the [p. 163] question of how he had been forgiven, saying, “As I also had compassion on thee”.
JT In Mark 5 we read of the man at Decapolis, who went and told “how great things Jesus had done for him”. He did not disobey the Lord; he implied that Jesus was God. God was there. It is Mark’s and Luke’s way of putting things. Jesus did it, but God did it.
GC Would you say reigning in life would be consequent upon grace reigning in you?
JT Reigning in life is a great thought, no doubt bearing on the future, the way we are to reign, reigning in life. That gives us the fulness really of what we are speaking of. It is the fulness of the thing, magnificence. We reign in life, not only are we forgiven.
JF What is the thought of truth here?
JT It is the regulating side. As we were saying about the woman at Sychar, the question begins with the thought of the gift of God. “If thou knewest the gift of God”. If there is something to give, there is something to receive. “And who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water”. That was grace. She says, “Sir, give me this water”. Jesus says to her, “Go, call thy husband, and come here”. That was the truth. There rests the whole point of truth, but if she is to come into the thing, the state of her history has to be gone into. The truth is a perfect standard, and I feel there is something of it lacking, so that “he that practises the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they have been wrought in God”, John 3: 21. He faces the light, he is not afraid of it.
JD What would be the bearing of that verse in Timothy: “That thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God’s house, which is the [p. 164] assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth”, 1 Timothy 3: 15?
JT It carries truth forward into disciplinary matters. The assembly is the pillar and base of the truth. Your behaviour in the house has to come to that, do you not think?
JD I was wondering as to distinguishing between grace itself and the mystery of piety. You have drawn attention to that verse, “God has been manifested in flesh” as peculiar to Christ alone. I was wondering if it would not be a necessity to have our minds fixed on the full thing in Christ Himself first.
JT Quite so. The assembly is the pillar and base of the truth. It acquired that from Christ. That is a wonderful verse which you quote, “God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels, has been preached among the nations, has been believed on in the world, has been received up in glory”, 1 Timothy 3: 16. What was there was justified in the Spirit. Everything that Christ did was justified in the Spirit, not justified in the minds of the Pharisees or Sadducees, or Pilate or Herod, but justified in the Spirit. That is where it works out. The Spirit is full justification, so that when the Lord was here justification went on. “Seen of angels”, as if He had not been seen before by them. It is a question of piety. It is a mystery. They had not seen it before. Now they have seen God, and He has been preached among the nations and believed on in the world. It is all to bring out what has happened, that this thing is established in experience. It is by experience. “Believed on in the world, has been received up in glory”. It is established in heaven, established in faith below and justified in testimony by the Spirit here. That enters into the treasury of the assembly, the constitution of the assembly. That it is the pillar and base of the truth, and then all behaviour in it must have that in mind.
TA [p. 165] How can piety be applied to God?
JT Well, it could be applied to Christ. What is in mind is Christ become a Man. The incarnation is in mind. The manifestation of God is in Christ.
GJB He was heard because of His piety.
JF Would it suggest God coming into our circumstances?
JT How supremely that was seen in Christ. “I have set Jehovah continually before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved”, Psalm 16: 8. The Psalms are full of this.
RRT What you say about the woman in John 4 fits in, she wanted to receive something. She is an example of one who received grace and truth. The fulness of grace was there for her; she also received truth and she went away conscious of having received something.
JT It was the truth side she presented really, because the point was to show that she was affected. The men of the city would know. She went to the men and this is what she said, “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?”. They might say, ‘We understand something must have happened in that woman, she is different’. She is an illustration of “if Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness”, Romans 8: 10. She called attention to life made manifest.
WB Would you say a little more on the first chapter of John. It says, “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we have contemplated his glory”. My thought is the glory, “Glory as of an only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth”. Then it says, “For of his fulness we all have received”, and in connection with fulness here truth is left out; it says, “grace upon grace”. Then the next verse says, “The law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ”. I [p. 166] was thinking it would help if you would say just a little about the glory, and truth with the glory. When His fulness is mentioned, the word is that we have all received grace upon grace. It is grace upon grace; and then subsisting in Christ is grace and truth.
JT It is a wonderful section of John’s writings. It is an introduction of the subject he has in mind, and is most charming spiritually, that the Word become flesh is contemplated. He is speaking of it from the standpoint of experience. “We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth”. That is the first thing, then he introduces John. John bears witness and cries, “He it is of whom I said, A man comes after me who takes a place before me, because he was before me”. Now the Spirit of God would bring John as a believer before your mind at once, and he is crying about something. What is he crying? About the Person of Christ; he is urgently speaking about the Person of Christ. John brings him in here. He speaks to christians by bringing in John the baptist in this beautiful tribute, “He it is of whom I said, A man comes after me who takes a place before me, because he was before me”. What a fine example that is for every christian in speaking about the fulness of Christ. Christ is so great and I am so little. Say it loudly. John was not whispering. We are told what John was saying, not thinking. He is saying it in the cry. He wants everyone to know that although he is a great servant, there is One preferred before him. That will enable me to be a second or a third amongst the brethren. I can be a second among the brethren if I have learned that. I do not think we will be much unless we can take a second place. Not that anyone can say I am to take a first place. Someone is preferred before me, and there was a good reason, “because he was before me”. He says it in a loud voice.
Then it goes on to say, “Of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace”. It does not mean that fulness does not include grace. There is one wave after another coming into my soul, and finally that grace and truth subsists, meaning that it is a fixed thing with God. God is not going to be diverted from it, no matter what happens in christianity. God will not be diverted until the time that grace is finished.
GJB Is it right to say this is the introduction of the new man?
JT The new man is of course a creation. You can never speak of Christ as the new man. Grace is the effect of what Christ is in incarnation, not new creation. The new man is created in truthful righteousness, and holiness. I think those who speak from the standpoint of experience would say that that is the new man in you.
FCB Is “grace upon grace” something additional to what we get in verse 12? “As many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God”? Does this “grace upon grace” go on in addition to that? Would it bring us into the full gospel of sonship as suggested in Christ as the only-begotten with the Father, not forgetting what is unique in Him?
JT “We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father” lays the basis of the family for sonship, although John never says we are sons, except once, that is in Revelation 21, and it is put on the ground of overcoming.
John 1: 14 is the end of the prelude to the gospel and ought to be read in connection with chapter 20. These first 14 verses are a sort of introduction to the whole book. Believers have the right to take the place of children of God, for they are born not of flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. It is the family, only from the standpoint of children, and John later says in his epistle, “See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God”. That is our position down here. It is the thought of the family in testimony here. In verse 15 of John 1 he speaks of Christ in His supremacy and then that “of his fulness we all have received”. He was “full of grace and truth”, because of the need here. What a guilty sinner needs is found in grace. God says, ‘I know all about the need and I have provided against it’. That relieves a man’s conscience.
WB “Grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ”.
JT That principle is fixed and God is not diverted from it. It is not simply that it is fixed in an arbitrary way, but it subsists in a Person. It is all according to His own mind. The idea of subsisting here is that the thing is characteristic of Christ, because you cannot have grace and truth in an abstract way. It is an applied thing. The Lord is characteristically that. He is always applying it so.
WGH John presents the thing progressively. It is grace upon grace. It is an advance. In John 9, in the blind man, you get family thoughts and associations introduced. Do they not exemplify the thought?
JT Yes, it is constant in the gospel. I suppose Luke furnishes the best illustration of it, how Peter and the apostles one after another came into it. Peter when he was first touched said, “Depart from me, for I am a sinful man”, but then he fell down at His knees. He knew grace was there.
EMcG Would Stephen fit in here, that he was full of grace and power. Then he expressed it in what he said before he died?
JT Yes; he represents more “from glory to glory”. His face shone as an angel’s. He was so like Jesus, as he kneeled down and prayed for those who were stoning him. The first is an angelic glory,
[p. 169] the second is a moral glory. It is “from glory to glory”. He saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. He saw the glory and Jesus. He reflects all that down here. He is an excellent illustration of the word, “from glory to glory” — “We ... are changed into the same image from glory to glory”. The first glory does not disappear, but it takes on another and another.
MDF God has left the system of works and now it is a question of grace in contrast to works. It is an active thought.
RRT Is that why it says, “through Jesus Christ”. It does not say ‘in Him’, but ‘through Him’. He is the channel.
JT Not only the vessel of it, but the channel of the flowing out in the administration of it.
WB Why is the law given by Moses brought in at this point?
JT To bring out the contrast of the dispensation. The law did not subsist in Moses, but “grace and truth subsists” in Christ. That is an active thought, a stated thing, not a theoretical thing..
JD Would that verse in 2 Corinthians 3, which speaks of the ministry of the Spirit subsisting in glory, involve the work of the Spirit in the souls of the saints?
JT It subsists in glory; it is a fixed thing, but it is an active thing. The Spirit is active.
JD Many of us have thought that grace and truth are abstract.
JT Something outside of ourselves rather than the Spirit maintaining these things in our souls.
GC It is the activity of grace. Grace is effected in our souls according to our delight in Him. There is the effect of grace and then we begin to praise that Person to others.
JT There is the idea of extension. The apostle says that “No one has seen God at any time; the [p. 170] only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”. It is the full thought of God being brought out by the Son in the bosom of the Father.
HG-h What is the distinction between grace and truth and what you read in Ephesians as to the faith system?
JT That brings us to Ephesians 4. The subject begins really with verse 1 and runs on to verse 16 and it is to show that the assembly was self-edified as a result of the ministry of gifts. They were given “with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”. That is the setting of our passage and what is in mind is our arriving at this thought, “the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”. But it is in the unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God. I think that is what is meant, for the truth of christianity is not preserved in writings or creeds but in the faith of our souls. I think that is what is meant, not simply that we have faith, but I think the faith includes what is held in unity. There is the unity of the Spirit in verse 3 and the unity of the faith in this verse. We are not endeavouring to maintain the unity of the Spirit at the expense of truth. Unity of the faith goes with that.
HG-h Would you say that the knowledge of the Son of God is that which gives life and impulse to it all?
JT That is the next thing, “the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God”. That is another side brought in. The knowledge of the Son of God, I apprehend, here is the knowledge of Him as setting out sonship, laying the basis for sonship.
JAT “The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father”. When the disciples said, “Where dwellest thou?”, the Lord answered, “Come and see”. Where did they come to?
JT It is John’s way, a spiritual thought. “Come and see”. John would have the people of God to prove things for themselves. You might say if you were there and followed the Lord, that He went to a certain street and to a certain house, but that would not be a spiritual thought. “Come and see” is a spiritual thought. It is where He is spiritually. They went with Him and abode with Him that day. They contemplated His glory, it was there to see. That is the idea with John. Come and prove the thing itself.
JAT John says, “The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father”. He would invite His disciples to see where He dwelt.
JT You have to bear in mind that it is in the bosom of the Father. “The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father”, not who was. There are those who would make that His place in Deity before incarnation, but that is not the point. The point is declaration, and refers to His place in manhood. This was written long after Christ went to heaven, but anyway the idea is spiritual. “Come and see” is spiritual. You get a grasp of the Lord’s living associations. Luke says that He used to go to the mount of Olives at night. If you wanted to know where He dwelt, you would have to go there. It is a spiritual thing.
WGH We are to arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God. It is the full-grown man, the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ.
JT I apprehend it is more Christ as a pattern for the family. It is not the incarnation. “No one knows the Son but the Father”. Here it is all that [p. 172] is known of Him as Man; as the Leader. He is bringing many sons to glory. He has perfected the thought of our salvation. He is on that line, the pattern of the family. We cannot arrive at the inscrutability of His Person.
HG-h Is it possible for a person to have all the outline of christianity as a doctrine and not know the Son of God who gives light to all?
JT We are to arrive at the knowledge of Him, what He is as with the Father; what Scripture opens up to us.
GC I suppose John would give us the way to that, the one who was in the bosom of Jesus?
JT You can see the relation between the two thoughts. The bosom of the Father is a receptive thought, and so in John 13 John was in the bosom of Jesus. The word suggests what is receptive, that you draw one to you, but John also leaned on the breast of Jesus. That is another word. We have nothing about the breast in John 1: 18. He was in the bosom of the Father. I think the declaration includes the Declared as well as the Declarer. He is part of the Deity. The “Him” is not there in the original. As declared, what we had this morning, really involves the fulness of Deity.
TA The first thing that is said in Luke at His birth is, “The holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God”. John speaks about His being in the bosom of the Father.
JT John does not present the birth of Christ when he says, “The only-begotten Son”. He does not present the public side of His position. He presents Him in fulness as acting in the testimony, and when he says, “The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father”, he speaks of Him as from God’s side, and as the One who made the declaration. The word ‘declaration’ means to bring out God. He has brought Him out into public view. It is declaration.
[p. 173] It is fulness brought out. Revelation is that you remove a veil and look in. Here in John 1: 18 it is declaration, the Son from the divine side. We have no part in it. That is purely the function of Christ viewed on the divine side, and as conscious of love. Ephesians 4 is sonship on our side. The Son of God is the Leader of the family thought, the pattern of the family. We know Him in that way. John in the bosom of Jesus is in the place of the Urim, in the place where he knows things. In John 1: 18, it is not the principle of sonship, but the place of love and light.
JD What is your apprehension of arriving at the knowledge of the Son of God as in Ephesians 4?
JT It is what is there. It is such a thing as that. I believe we get the idea of the treasury, what the apostles reached as christians belongs to the treasury. The Spirit has it, and it is there for me to arrive at.
JD I was thinking of Paul’s challenge about not coming to Corinth in 2 Corinthians 1: 19, 20. He says, “For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus), did not become yea and nay, but yea is in him. For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen, for glory to God by us”.
JT Paul refers in the previous verses to uprightness and transparency which are to be reflected in the saints when Christ is preached. It is the Person that is presented to man and the preachers are in accord with that. The Son of God has to be apprehended as the Head of the family. He is to be the firstborn among many brethren, and I believe arrival at that knowledge is what is meant here.
JD Do you think that is why He asked the man in John 9, “Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God”?
[p. 174] JT The time had come for it. The man was ready for all that was to be known about that Person.
WGH It is a matter of experience, a matter of arrival.
JT We have Paul using that word in Philippians, in saying that he might arrive at the resurrection. He wanted to arrive at it. It was a known thing, that had to be reached, and this is a known thing. You will want to reach it. It is there to be reached.
HG-h In speaking of the knowledge of the Son of God, is it the fulness of Christ?
JT It is the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. It is fulness in that sense, that it is what He is towards God, and as the pattern Man, the fulness that is expressive of the kind of man God is pleased with, is delighted with. In John 1 it is what comes into us of the fulness, but this is the other side.
JD Has the full grown man every spiritual faculty developed?
JT The fullness is in measure of the stature, the use of the word ‘measure’ shows that it is a finite thing; it is a finite thought. In these scriptures there is what is measurable in us and immeasurable in Christ.