THE DISPENSATIONS (3)
[p. 429] THE DISPENSATIONS (3)
Exodus 20: 22 - 26; Exodus 40: 34 - 38; 1 Chronicles 22: 1 - 5
JT Dispensational truth is particularly stressed in relation to Moses, and these scriptures are selected because they treat of the house of God and the last one shows that the bearing of the house is toward all nations. The whole of humanity is in mind in what God set up mediatorially in Moses. This wide outlook marks the dispensations and it is noteworthy that Adam is linked on with Moses in Romans: “from Adam until Moses”. Adam, the fountainhead of the race, is linked on with Moses, the great mediator, and God is showing that He has the whole race of mankind in mind and would operate in relation to His house — all looking on to the present period, the period of the assembly. This first passage is from Exodus 20 which records the giving of the law, but the idea of the altar is added to it showing that God had man in mind, to assert His mind among them, and that there should be a return, a response to Himself. When it comes to David and Solomon we have the kingdom, its official features. The house is enjoined to be a house of prayer for all nations, as the Lord Himself says.
CAM This response returning to God increases with each dispensation as they follow one another. I think you used the word ‘return to God’ in connection with the altar.
JT I thought the return from men, from God’s people, enters into the dispensational truth. It will be seen presently in the nations. The kings of the nations and those who are saved will bring their glory to the city. All will converge on the house; the heavenly city will be before the nations. There will be a corresponding house on earth. They will be linked together, all having God Himself in mind. The nations will come up to worship. The dispensation [p. 430] of the fulness of times will show what God had in mind from the outset in His dispensational operations. He has Himself in mind, and the idea of an altar is that there should be a return to God. It is clear enough in this chapter. We have two altars contemplated — one made of earth and the other of stone. Then in chapter 24 Israel is representatively seen ascending to God; the elders see the God of Israel, and what a God! They ate and drank before Him. At the end of the book He is seen in the tabernacle which the people had provided for Him. In David’s regime and Solomon’s this works out to all nations.
CHH In the first dispensation it says in Hebrews 11, “By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain”. Would that be the first return to God?
JT Quite so. It is remarkable that it should come into his heart to offer; and to offer the best there was, the fat of the sacrifice. That is what God is seeking, a return from man. He came into the garden looking for that.
ANW The book of Leviticus sets out the matter of God looking for a return. “When any man of you presenteth an offering to Jehovah”.
JT That is very beautiful in Leviticus. It is just the habitation itself. He speaks out of the tabernacle, out of the tent of meeting, seeking what there was, looking for the best. Now Exodus shows what led up to that, what God knew and received, as we had in Noah and Abel and many others. Exodus is to provide light as to how God is to be approached; not simply that we have something, but how it is to be presented to Him.
AC Would the last chapter of Hosea have a bearing on what you are saying as to the return? “O Israel, return unto Jehovah thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity”. The appeal is made [p. 431] to the men of Israel. Then verse 8 of Isaiah 9 says, “The Lord sent a word unto Jacob, and it lighteth upon Israel”.
JT There is much in that chapter that bears on what you are saying. They would come back with words. We are told what to do. It is not simply that there is wealth abroad, but how it is to be brought and presented. It says, “O Israel, return unto Jehovah thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity. Take with you words, and turn to Jehovah; say unto him, Forgive all iniquity, and receive us graciously; so will we render the calves of our lips”. That helps as to what we are saying. That is really Exodus, and Leviticus too; but in Exodus there is wealth and how it is to be presented. So that brings in the necessity for the priesthood which Exodus provides.
HPR “An altar of earth shalt thou make unto me”; does that connect in any way with 2 Kings 5, “And Naaman said, If not, then let there, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules’ burden of this earth; for thy servant will no more offer burnt-offering and sacrifice to other gods, but to Jehovah”?
JT It is the same principle right through — how things are to be presented to God. There is wealth abroad among men through God’s presentation of Himself to them. That is the first thing, God’s presentation of Himself to men, and then the Mediator, and then the return, so that the priest is equal to the Mediator, the Apostle. Christ is “the Apostle and High Priest of our confession”. So that the response is equal to the approach of God to man. Man’s approach to God is equal to that. That is what Exodus has in mind. It is to extend to all ages and to come about in the dispensation of the fulness of times. It is remarkable that we have this here; first, the altar of earth, and second, the altar [p. 432] of stone. So that the return is to be according to divine requirement.
JWD Is all this preliminary to the thought of God dwelling?
JT That is what is in mind. It is not simply that He has an altar, but He has a house. The altar is introductory to the house. The altar existed in Genesis and the offerings too. The house is only alluded to abstractly in Genesis, but now it is to be a concrete matter. Of course, everything is to be perfect in principle in our dispensation, and we are dealing with it now, because it is the time of knowing things. So that the Lord’s supper is introductory to the service of God and in leading up to it the apostle says, “I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say”, 1 Corinthians 10: 15.
AR It says in Exodus 1: 6, “And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation”. Would it be right to say in the light of these scriptures that God has in mind a new generation and He expects an increase in regard to intelligence in relation to His service?
JT Yes, it was a matter of preserving the males. The idea of the service of God is masculine, “Let my son go, that he may serve me”.
JTJr Would you say that in the mediatorial dispensation God is nearer than in the previous dispensation?
JT Yes, and the intelligence is greater. The mediatorial feature involves a man whom God has taken up. Right through we have the idea of a man, but Moses is outstanding and made acquainted with God as no other man had been so far. God saw to that. He tells Aaron and Miriam that He treated Moses as no other man had been treated. There was no one like Moses in the Old Testament times, and that is in mind in the dispensation, that it should be fully represented. What God would bring out should be [p. 433] fully brought before men, and therefore Moses was very urgent to know more of God. God said, “I will make all my goodness pass before thy face, and I will proclaim the name of Jehovah before thee”, Exodus 33: 19. He made known to him as much as the dispensation admitted of. God was so intent on enlargement, that the dispensation should be fully developed, as far as possible, in the mediatorial position. Therefore, there are two, Moses and Aaron, the apostle and high priest.
NW Is the result of the ministry of Moses seen in Deuteronomy 26, in the intelligent return of the worshipper who was to say, “A perishing Aramaean was my father, and he went down to Egypt with a few”? Would that be having the service in mind?
JT That would be the service in the land which is the carrying on of what we are speaking about. It is the fruit of the land that is brought to God. Here we are dealing with the simple thought of the altar. Of course, it runs into the land, but it worked out in the wilderness too. The point in the mediatorial system is that God is seeking response, but that we should present it properly, and He has provided a mediatorial system for that purpose.
WR Moses was faithful in all God’s house. Does it prove he was thorough in every service to God?
JT Yes, that is the idea. The nearer you come to Christ, the more you get like Him. There was no one like Moses. That is the thing to keep in mind. God is developing His dispensational operations and He is increasing the services by them. In Exodus 20 as soon as He makes His demands of love, He speaks of the thousands of those who love Him. He is setting out how things should be done by His lovers as they draw near to Him in service.
JTJr In the way of service to God on the one hand and the administration of matters on [p. 434] the other?
JT Yes, when you come to Deuteronomy and the land things become wider, and when you come to David, wider still. All things in the house were to be exceedingly magnificent. It is to be for all lands. God would have an ornament for all the earth and a place for all nations to pray in. He is concerned about having all there is, but having them according to His own way.
CN Why does He call attention to “the heavens” as the place from whence He speaks?
JT Then it says, “Ye shall not make beside me gods of silver, and ye shall not make to you gods of gold”. They are to be kept from idolatry, for it is abhorrent to love. John in his epistle says, “Little children, keep yourselves from idols”. God spoke “from the heavens”, so that what He said was clear of all that men were going on with. Even Abraham had to do with idolatry, Joshua tells us in chapter 24 of his book. God was against that from the start, and especially in this matter of His house and His worship. It is always true that the gospel should go out in relation to the assembly. Many have disassociated it from the assembly, making it a matter of persons receiving the light of the gospel without any subsequent formation, and also without any idea of God’s house. Peter called attention to this in his first address in Acts; that is, the Spirit as in the assembly. The first great gospel address contemplated the assembly and the Spirit in it.
CAM In connection with that, is it not remarkable that the apostle Paul uses the expression “that the offering up of the nations might be acceptable”? Is it right to say that the gospel is announced in view of what can be placed on the altar, as a return to God in His service?
JT Very remarkable, that in Romans 15. What a wide thought the apostle had in what he was doing through the gospel. He was carrying on a sacrificial [p. 435] service and the offering was to be acceptable as sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
AAT Following the instructions to Moses and the children of Israel as to the altar of earth and of stone, God says, “in all places where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and bless thee”.
JT Well, that is one of the greatest things. The house from the outset was where the blessing was, and God says here, “In all places where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and bless thee”. The blessing in Genesis was through Abraham’s family; right down to the end of the book it is through persons, but now the house is the place where His name is. It is an ordered, settled position that God has provided so that He should be there, and not there in a static way, but where He would come. He causes His name to be remembered, and where there is real response to His name, He says, “I will come unto thee, and bless thee”. In the Psalms the Lord commands the blessing, “even life for evermore”. It is not through persons here, but in a structure in which God is, and in which He surrounds Himself with vessels of holiness. So if we draw near to Him we should be holy.
JWD These fresh features in the service of God involve obedience, and order.
JT Yes. It is clearly an addition to what we have had so far. Exodus gives God’s requirements. He is asserting His rights and looking for a response to these rights. We know how to behave when we draw near to God.
JW Did the dispensation of which we are now speaking begin with the giving of the law?
JT Yes. It is a question of God’s rights, I think. Exodus 20 is very formal. We are led on through the earlier chapters, but we do not get this in Egypt. The speaking here is at Sinai and God is [p. 436] really inaugurating the dispensation, which was not properly set up until the law was given, and in relation to it, an ordered place was set up, a building, a structure that Israel provided. So that the dispensation is very formal under Moses and runs right down to Christ. This matter of the two altars is to remind us that God is looking for response in an ordered way, and it will come out in the dispensation of the fulness of times, in the millennium when that ordered way will be followed. Ezekiel is very full as to what is required. It is to be better understood now than then because we are in the time of knowledge.
CHH Is that why the Hebrew servant comes in after this, pointing on to Christ?
JT Quite so. The return is to be in the fulness of Christ, a divine Person, so that the approach to God is equal to His approach to us. The point now is to see the bearing of this mediatorial position, how it enters into the present dispensation.
Ques What would you say as to the peace-offering as well as the burnt-offering?
JT “Thou ... shalt sacrifice on it [the altar] thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings”. The peace-offerings would refer more to what is subjective and our enjoyment. The burnt-offerings are more objective, and what suits God. The peace-offering would bring in the saints in their subjective enjoyment of things. There is so little giving of thanks. We often note how little giving of thanks there is for food among men. True believers, true lovers of God would bring Him into everything, our food: “in everything give thanks”. When we come together at a time like this we are all brought into it; it is a collective matter, and we are all thankful that God is accepting the general feeling of thanksgiving to Him. The burnt-offering is a higher level according to Leviticus, but it is joined here with the peace-offering. I think it is a question of the lovers of God [p. 437] permeated with the idea of thanksgiving, but it must be on the altar.
SJH What does the thought of an altar represent?
JT It is a question of what is suitable to God. Every lover of God is concerned even in his own house about what is becoming in his speaking to God. He is not common in what he is doing, he knows how to approach God. Noah built his altar, and Abraham built his altar. It implied a reverential thought as to what was becoming in approach to God.
WL Would you say it is in contrast to idols?
JT It is to prevent idolatry. That is what God had in mind. He says, “Ye have seen that I have spoken with you from the heavens. Ye shall not make beside me gods of silver, and ye shall not make to you gods of gold”. God is to have His own way; He is to be approached on His own terms. In christendom place is given to man’s art and device, but God has brought some of His people back to what He requires, to approach Him as He would like.
AC How does the scripture in Hebrews 13 fit in with what you are saying, “We have an altar”?
JT Others are excluded from it; it is what we might call an exclusive altar. Certain persons have no right to it at all; that is those “who serve the tabernacle”. The tabernacle there refers to the public profession of christianity as seen in judaism, and the religious world. Then we are to go further: “Let us go forth to him without the camp, bearing his reproach”. The tabernacle in Hebrews 13 refers to the Jewish system of things at that time with which christianity had been associated. Believers were called upon to dissociate themselves, to see that christianity was separate from judaism, leading up to what we have now among the gentiles.
AR Moses had great liberty to go up the mountain, and to come down and speak, and go back; yet [p. 438] in all that there is a great lack of liberty on the side of the people.
JT God began with the idea in chapter 19 where there was terror, but gradually liberty was brought in for the saints, as we get priesthood. There is a gradual wearing down of terror so that the saints should be in liberty with God; Exodus 24 brings out that. God says, “Go up”. God is allowing liberty to ascend and “they saw the God of Israel”. The terror is gradually disappearing as the priesthood comes into evidence; liberty takes the place of the terror, so that we draw near to God in Christ.
HPR God wants things in order. In the morning meeting, a certain spiritual ascent is made, then later we drop back. We go on with it, but is it not necessary that we recognise the divine order which has been given to us?
JT That is the instruction in these books, especially Exodus and Leviticus. God knows that we have wealth, and they had it too; but the order in which it is to be presented is stressed. The elevation is seen in Exodus 24, when certain ones are invited to go up. They do not stay there; they come down, for the idea is that what is set up here on the earth outwardly is a heavenly thing. If a number of angels came down they would not be affected by theatres; they have no taste for those things. God can trust us as we come down. When He takes us into what is heavenly, as it were. He gives us tastes and instincts so that He can trust us, as we come down. Therefore, in Ephesians the elevation is first; then we are made to sit down together; then there is the habitation here, a heavenly institution here below. The point is to keep to the heavenly in our tastes. That is what Exodus means: the tabernacle is a heavenly thing down here and God fills it with [p. 439] His glory.
CHH Is that seen at all in the ladder in Genesis 28 — angels ascending and descending?
JT Just so. That is the first thing you get in connection with the idea of the house. God did not say to Jacob, ‘This is my house’, but Jacob said “how dreadful is this place!”. He called it the house of God the second time, in a balanced and appreciative way. The idea is that it is to be heavenly, the angels were ascending and descending on the ladder. Now in the New Testament it is Christ — He descended and ascended to keep the link with heaven. So that earthly-mindedness and worldliness is to be shut out. When God said ‘Go back to Bethel’, Jacob said, ‘You must put away the idols’. The house of God is a heavenly thing down here.
JWD Does that heavenly thing call for priesthood?
JT The priesthood is essential because it is a question of holiness. The priests in Leviticus are in charge of the law. The idea of priesthood is to shut out worldliness and unholiness. Leviticus has that in mind. The priesthood is established in Exodus but seen set up in the sanctuary in Leviticus, so that when an offering comes the priests are there. The offering is to pass through the hands of the priests and all is to be regulated by them. So the law is in the hands of the priests. “This is the law of the burnt-offering”, the sin-offering, the peace-offering. These laws are all in the hands of the priests to shut out worldliness or human innovation in the service of God.
AR I think what you say about Exodus 24 is very interesting. Moses goes up to the top of the mountain and is there forty days and forty nights. In the meantime you have Aaron and Hur; that would watch out for the priestly side.
JT [p. 440] Exactly.
CN The last verse of chapter 25 is important: “And see that thou make them according to their pattern, which hath been shewn to thee in the mountain”.
JT It all comes down. That is really Ephesians. It has all come down from heaven that we might have “a habitation of God in the Spirit”.
Ques Would the idea of the altars be some apprehension of Christ?
JT Yes, it is a question first of the humanity of Christ. That is the first altar. The second altar is the resurrection of Christ; it is made of stones. There can be no doubt that that is what is meant. In connection with that no human devices are to be used, no tools, and no steps. Man is prevented from adding something that would expose his wickedness. In truth it is the house of God, the assembly of God. It is stressed in Corinthians.
CAM I suppose we really could not understand the final greatness of things as suggested in Ephesians unless we understood these different dispensations. I was thinking that this matter of coming down, and the idea of mediatorship, will be carried right through to the heavenly city, when all this blessedness will come down and what is below will be blessed in that way.
JT Everything comes down, I am sure. That is the principle. The heavenly city is trustworthy because she is presented there as coming down; she has never been anywhere else but up there. She is absolutely perfect as coming down from God out of heaven. Nothing that makes a lie or corrupts in any way is allowed there; there is exclusiveness from all that.
CAM Is it not a remarkable thing that God would give us knowledge through the consideration of dispensations gone [p. 441] by?
JT Well, that is what we are aiming at in this dispensational subject that we have before us, to see how it culminates in us, because it is a time of knowledge. The dispensation of the fulness of times is the millennium, when the fulness of all dispensations will be seen, all headed up in Christ, things in heaven and things in earth. The matter now is that we are rendered capable of dealing with things for God. Abraham could not have acted as we can, or ought to be able to, or even Moses, and certainly not the prophets. The whole matter awaited the coming down of the Spirit. Redemption being accomplished, and the Spirit here, we have the unction and we know all things. What we are dealing with now is this mediatorial matter and how God has established it; so that all nations are in mind for blessing. At Pentecost all nations were represented.
JWD Do we link these altars on with 1 Corinthians 10 in christianity?
JT That is what I thought, and there intelligence is stressed, “I speak as to intelligent persons”. It is a question of idolatry being shut out, “judge what I say”. God has brought in certain things in Christ sacrificially; “the cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of the Christ?”. That is the death of Christ. That is what we are dealing with and that shuts out idolatry; and on the ground of that we are one body, and we have that which God can approve and commend, too. In chapter 11 the bread is first but in chapter 10 the cup.
CHH Is that included in chapter 14?
JT Well, it is known there. Prophecy stresses it, “God is in you of a truth”. A man gets light from God; he falls down and worships God.
CHH [p. 442] In chapter 10 it is if any man is intelligent, but in chapter 14, if any man is spiritual, “let him acknowledge”. It is the summing up of the thing.
JT The prophetic ministry which is in the assembly, not simply a section of it, but all the assembly in the place, is there in relation to all the persons in that town wherever they may be. There is the christian meeting room and the saints are there; and there is the idol house, the Jewish house, and Satan’s house. The synagogue is there. They are all there, but the christian assembly is there. A man walking up the street can turn into the christian assembly, no matter who he is. That is what we are dealing with; the dispensations are come to us. That is mentioned in chapter 10, and the man who belongs to the race of mankind comes into the christian assembly and he finds the prophetic word of God. It touches his conscience, and he falls down and worships God. He is convicted of all, as we are told. It must be on the ground of conviction, redemption having been accomplished there must be the conviction of sin. Where God is there must be that. Everyone there is convicted as to this man and he falls down and reports that God is among you. He is not in the idol house, he is in the christian assembly. That is the position.
CHH Would that correspond to “in all places where I shall make my name to be remembered”; and Matthew 18, “For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”? There are a great many places in which we do not gather at all.
JT What we are speaking of enters into that. It is a question of two or three of you. God has formed that; it is a house matter. The dispensation of God is a dispensation in relation to His house, and the assembly is His house. The types have come to us, and the ages have come to us; the whole [p. 443] matter is there to be understood now. We see all things clearly.
AL “Two or three” would be those who recognise these altars as being the means of approach to God. You desire to be near to God, whereas an idol would bring in distance and displace God.
JT Yes, the altar is God’s work and Matthew enters into all that.
JF Is it your thought that His holiness must be proved? He will not surrender His holiness.
JT That is the thought exactly. God coming out and being known. When God comes out and is apprehended and offerings are to be made, they must be on His own terms; and therefore it is a question of God’s approach to men, not simply Jews, but men. The gospel now has that in mind in many men returning to God. It is a question of men drawing near to God; He has His requirements and these are seen in the priesthood and the altar.
JTJr Is that the force in the expression in the Colossians “wherein there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision”? The thought of the full knowledge of God; we are renewed into that. The Jew and the Greek are shut out. Christ is everything.
JT Yes. Ephesians is the top stone of instruction: “Who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of enclosure, having annulled the enmity in his flesh, the law of commandments in ordinances, that he might form the two in himself into one new man, making peace”. We come on to that in Ephesians. The kind of man God is looking for and having is the new one, not the old Adam, but the new one. Ephesians makes provision for that.
JTJr I was thinking of the thought of full knowledge in Colossians, that the new man is connected with the full knowledge, renewed into [p. 444] that.
JT Quite so. And then the drawing near in Ephesians by Christ of both Jew and gentile in one new man, drawing near by “one Spirit to the Father”. Exodus shows us that God is making Himself known more and more, setting His people at liberty to go up. It is a question of elevation and it is christianity that is in mind really, and in this matter of elevation in chapter 24 the principle is that that structure, the tabernacle — God’s dwelling, has come down from heaven. Moses had been up there forty days to get heaven’s impressions. They saw no form at all; it is a question of words given to Moses, and they were transferred to the people through Moses. They brought the material, but the structure must be according to the heavenly pattern. God is insisting upon His rights, that it should be brought to Him in His own way so that the dignity of His habitation should be maintained.
SJH As falling into line with these instructions, we get all this concentrated in one place. So there is increase, development, and order; things expand there.
JT There is no thought at all of this in christendom today, though there are many religious names and assemblies. What we are dealing with now is the idea of oneness in those who approach, and God says, “In all places where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and bless thee”. It is one idea. It is a great general idea of drawing near to God according to the principles of His own system; it is one idea in Corinthians. The customs are always the same and we draw near wherever we are living, in whatever country, in whatever circumstances. We always draw near to God according to the pattern from the mount. That shuts out all ideas of one-man ministry or men taking up priesthood as between God and man. We [p. 445] draw near through Christ by one Spirit, “by one Spirit to the Father”.
TH What do you understand by the cloud?
JT Well, that is a symbol of the divine presence. God is saying, ‘I am here’, and He claims it all. Even Moses’ services, for the moment, are restricted. God is asserting His rights to the whole position. He insisted on His rights in Exodus.
Ques Is that the counterpart to the verses read in Exodus 40? Would it correspond to Psalm 133 where the brethren are dwelling together in unity?
JT Well, that is the principle. The land in Psalm 133 where the Lord commands the blessing is where unity is. So in 1 Chronicles this matter is widened out as under David. It says in chapter 22, verse 1, “This is the house of Jehovah Elohim, and this is the altar of burnt-offering for Israel”. It is the only one. We are told in chapter 21 how David reached it, but this is the result of his exercises in chapter 21. “And David commanded to collect the strangers that were in the land of Israel; and he set masons to hew wrought stones to build the house of God. And David prepared iron in abundance for the nails for the doors of the gates, and for the joists, and brass in abundance without weight; and cedar-trees innumerable; for the Zidonians and they of Tyre brought cedar-wood in abundance to David. For David said, Solomon my son is young and tender, and the house that is to be built for Jehovah must be exceeding great in fame and in beauty in all lands”. This is the point that I believe we should get clearly into our souls: the universal bearing of the house and that God is operating universally and that it is most attractive. The queen of Sheba illustrates how attractive it was and how she came up with abundance. She observed how Solomon moved toward the house of God. The point is how we are moving in the service of God in the assembly. That [p. 446] is what is in mind in David and Solomon. It is Ephesians really.
ANW Does it also explain the world-wide aspect? Timothy has a world-wide aspect. He is told to pray for men and kings.
JT Quite so. That is where this word ‘dispensation’ is found, “God’s dispensation, which is in faith”.
CAM How are we to view the expression, “Solomon my son is young and tender” in connection with this matter?
JT Well, it shows what a man David was. He was not giving out that his son would not do things as well as he did. He needs qualification so that he should be a man in dealing with these matters. Hence, the patriarchal thought appears in David, for he really had that honour. He would have the young one coming after him to be thoroughly furnished that the house may be according to the pattern, because he had the pattern as Moses; only David had it by the Spirit. We are advancing in the truth in David and Solomon.
WR The queen of Sheba, in seeing all Solomon’s wisdom and his house, would carry some impression of what she had gained there wherever she was.
JT She would carry back to her own country the impressions she had received. She had brought wonderful gifts to Solomon, but he also enriched her. The Lord calls her a queen of the south. I have often thought of what is in God’s mind in the present dispensation as to what is in the south now, what God has effected in Australasia and South Africa too.
CHH “Great in fame and in beauty”. That idea is to be maintained. Ezra says in chapter 7, verse 27, that God had put it in the heart of the king to beautify the house of [p. 447] Jehovah.
JT That shows how the gentiles, all men, were always in mind. He segregated them at Babel to reserve them for later purposes and He has never lost sight of them. He told Abraham that he was to be the means of blessing for all these. You could understand how Abraham regarded people differently, and that comes to us. The blessing of Abraham has arrived at the gentiles. We have received the promise of the Spirit, received the matter through faith. So that in our dispensation the matter is finished.
JWD Do you think that along with our ability to take our part in the service of God in the assembly, there is also a spiritual formation that fits us to represent God publicly at the same time?
JT I think that is what John’s ministry in some respects is for. “Come and see” is a phrase with John. It is what God has established, and what is to be seen. There is very little today, but still the principle goes on; there is something, and God can make it more.
AR What is the thought in David saying “the house of Jehovah Elohim”?
JT Well, it is the great Creator God; first, the covenant God and then the Creator God. Elohim is God in creation. The name is a combination that links on Jehovah known in covenant with Elohim known in creation. Whether He be viewed as Father now or God, it is the same idea running through.
HPR You spoke of the universal order of the house. Would you say the queen of Sheba got a greater view of the order of it?
JT Yes, she says the half was not told her. That shows what the assembly is — the residence of the divine glory and truth. John is for the last days and he says, “Come and see”. What is there? What can be seen in the meetings?
NW [p. 448] Is one less qualified to serve in the gospel if he is not in the enjoyment of the realm of God’s love in the assembly?
JT Just so. It is the gospel of the unsearchable riches of the Christ, as well as the gospel concerning His Son. You have to come and see these things in the assembly. The assembly is the residence of the glory. It will be seen coming down out of heaven from God presently.
TH Would it be right to say that Philip had a sense of the unsearchable riches of Christ as he presented Jesus to the eunuch?
JT Quite so. He would tell him about Christ and His riches I am sure, but we must come to Ephesians if we want to proceed to the end of things. In Ephesians we get culminating thoughts.
JTJr Is this the summit typically of the mediatorial side? God has a nation here through which He rules the world directly. God is seen there ruling the world through David. God is ruling there in Israel, in the house; ruling the world through this king. Is that the position?
JT Well, that was the position then, and it is in a moral sense now. Paul makes a great deal of God’s kingdom, and it is the present moral situation. The bearing is universal. God is here and the features of His kingdom are here.
SMcC It would seem that the circumstances of chapter 21 provide a release for all this in chapter 22. Would that not fit in with the present moment of pressure, what is linked with the threshing floor, and the like?
JT I am sure that is right. It is a question of David’s humiliation as having acted in pride. He wished to know the number of those whom he ruled and he brought down judgment on himself. It is not a question of our numbers. David erred in that, and he had to humble himself. God sees his downward [p. 449] course of humiliation and brought in this great truth of the house which is God’s glory. It is not what David is going to have as a great king, but it is what God is going to have. David came to that — the house was to represent God, and was to be exceeding great in fame and beauty in all lands. There was a great change in David. Wherever we are humbled or disciplined some fresh phase of the truth acquires a place with us so that the house of God is developed on those lines. “This is the house of Jehovah Elohim, and this is the altar of burnt-offering for Israel”. The word ‘this’ there refers to what had taken place in the sheathing of the sword of judgment. David is a great military man, but now it is God in grace that is to be known in David, and the sword of judgment is sheathed.
SMcC Would you say that what has come to light in persons taking issue with assembly judgments, has shown a lack of a right, intelligent understanding of God’s place and rights in the assembly?
JT Quite so. David is brought to recognise God’s rights, and God uses the opportunity in the judgment due to him — the disciplinary penalty that was meted out and mitigated afterwards, to make known to David that there was to be a change of dispensation. It is said that David was afraid to go to where the tabernacle was. “And the tabernacle of Jehovah, which Moses had made in the wilderness, and the altar of burnt-offering, were at that time in the high place at Gibeon. But David could not go before it to inquire of God; for he was afraid because of the sword of the angel of Jehovah”, 1 Chronicles 21: 29, 30. David is learning the change of dispensation. God is identified in one place with the sword, and David could not go there but he sees that God is changing over. It is God’s mind being changed, for He told the angel to sheath the sword. David’s mind certainly was changed through discipline,
[p. 450] and that works out in what we have now. David is brought into accord with God and there is a change proceeding as the sword is sheathed. Instead of judgment there is grace, so that David has liberty. “And David built there an altar to Jehovah, and offered up burnt-offerings and peace-offerings, and called upon Jehovah; and he answered him from the heavens by fire upon the altar of burnt-offering. And Jehovah spoke to the angel; and he put up his sword again into its sheath”. God changes His operations from the sword, to the acceptance of David’s offering; instead of executing judgment on David He accepts his offering, and that is where the foundation of the house lies. We have to learn how things can be changed and the ground on which this can take place.
WR In the verses we read in the following chapter, would it not show the relation of God Himself in His house as a place of love?
JT This refers to all that we have been speaking of in chapter 21. “This is the house of Jehovah Elohim”. God does not say that, David says that. In a certain sense David is now the mediator. He has come to that through discipline.
JW Would the feature of refinement be seen here in David’s word, “Solomon my son is young and tender”?
JT “Young and tender” would mean that he is impressionable. David really has the position of a mediator, and he is concerned about the son. It is a question of sonship dawning upon him as it has dawned upon us. It is a question of sonship to be worked out in a young man, “young and tender”. David is acting as mediator; he is determining where the house is to be built and how magnificent it is to be, because the bearing of it is to be toward all the nations, “exceeding great in fame and in beauty in all lands”. The bearing of the house [p. 451] is universal.
CAM There is a liberty that results from the apprehension of sonship being developed among the saints. Do you think that the reference to “come and see”, and all that follows in John’s ministry develops this matter of sonship?
JT Well, it does. Solomon being “young and tender” alludes to this idea. John brings out the truth of sonship in Christ; we learn it there and the word is “Come and see”. The youthfulness and tenderness of Solomon allude to impressionability that God can use to bring out His thoughts.
Ques “Thou therefore, my child, be strong in the grace which is in Christ Jesus. And the things thou hast heard of me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men”. Would that correspond?
JT Well, quite so. It is the youthful thought that God is taking into account; many of the young men are now in very disadvantageous circumstances. They are like the sons of Zion; they are whiter than snow, but they are exposed to great danger. God is looking at them, their potentialities, youth and tenderness and purity. How terribly exposed they are; how terrible the circumstances are into which they are forced. God is concerned that their youth and tenderness may not be damaged so that they might be available and impressionable for all the great thoughts He has for us, especially in regard to sonship, and to be available for building. That is David’s exercise here. He is really a patriarch here; David is called a patriarch in the New Testament (Acts 2: 29). He was concerned about the young, and Solomon is representative of youth.
WR There is great need of preparation and you can see that process in our younger brethren.
JT Yes. David is preparing in view of them.