⬇ EPUB

THE SUBSTANTIALITY OF CHRISTIANITY (1)

AJG I was thinking that this epistle stresses the great substantiality of Christianity, that it is a real and substantial thing, marked by life, so that it speaks of “the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us” and the epistle is written, as we know from the last chapter, that we might know that we have eternal life. What I think we shall find, as we proceed, is that the life that is known and enjoyed among the saints takes character from what God is in His nature, so that we are constantly challenged as we go through this epistle. Remarks occur in the epistle from time to time that are intended to ‘pull us up’, so to speak, and make us examine whether we are really in things or not, the Spirit of God insisting on the reality and substance of what we have come into, and that it is entirely of God. Another thing that the epistle is marked by, as is well known, is the way that the writer says “he” and “him” without specifying, in so many words, whether he is referring to Christ or to God. We are thus constantly impressed, in this epistle, with God, but God as known in Christ, and I think the fact that we are to arrive at the knowledge of God links on with eternal conditions, the epistle bringing in, for instance, the thought that we are abiding in God and God in us. I trust, therefore, that as we proceed we shall be helped to face the truth as to how far we are in the power of Christianity, and helped too in our knowledge of God and our entrance into what is eternal in character. That is what one has in mind in suggesting the epistle.

PHH When you used the word ‘substance’ and ‘substantiality’ are you referring, first of all, to the way the epistle opens, that which was heard and seen, contemplated, handled?

AJG Yes, the apostle refers to the life which had been before their eyes in the Person of Jesus, not as something that was theoretical or merely doctrinal, but something which they had seen and handled and contemplated. It was something very substantial, and we can see that John in his ministry leads up, in Revelation 21, to something extremely substantial formed in the saints. One refers, of course, to the city, where the dimensions of it are given - “twelve thousand stadia: the length and the breadth and height” suggesting a cube of immense measurement, but immense content, immense substance, and that is what the Spirit of God is labouring to produce.

JAP Is this a reference to Christ in His flesh and blood condition, or does it refer to Him in resurrection as He moved in and out among the disciples during the forty days?

AJG I think it includes both. It was what they apprehended in Christ in His movements amongst them, before He died, and what they saw in Him during the forty days.

ABP The footnote refers to Luke 24.

AJG Yes, because there we get a specific example of that which was handled.

WC Does not that scripture link up the two periods? The Lord says “I myself,” it was the same One they had known in blood and flesh that they could then handle as risen?

AJG I think that helps. Of course, in taking account of the Lord in flesh and blood condition, before His death, other things were seen as well as eternal life; that is, we see the Lord in the position of testimony and conflict, but when He was risen from the dead, that is past and is no longer seen, and we can contemplate Him moving wholly in relation to that eternal life. At the same time, we might reverently say that what He was in testimony found its roots and its power in what He was with His Father, which is really the essence of this eternal life.

PHH Hence such an expression as in Luke 21, “By day he was teaching in the temple, and by night, going out he remained abroad on the mountain called the mount of Olives.” Would that link on illustratively with what you are saying?

AJG That gives the double side of the life of Christ down here before death. There was the testimony and conflict side, but then there was the secret side, and that is what is connected with this eternal life.

PHH I was thinking of what you said about His secret life with the Father. Would that be hinted at as we are taught by the Spirit in relation to the mount of Olives?

AJG I thought so.

HDT Would that not be in mind when John says, “we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father”? (John 1: 14).

AJG Yes, I think so.

HDT He does not dwell so much on the Word, but the glory that shone in the relationship that was there.

AJG Quite so, I suppose what they contemplated as recorded in the gospel is very much the way God was coming out in Him, whereas, what they contemplated as referred to in this epistle was very much the answer to that in a Man.

JMcD Is the reference in chapter 3 to “see him as he is” additional to what is presented in these verses?

AJG Oh! yes, certainly, “As he is,” of course, takes us on to His present position and condition in glory.

FCH Would the passage in Acts 10 bear upon it? “This man God raised up the third day and gave him to be openly seen, not of all the people, but of witnesses who were chosen before of God,” Acts 10: 40, 41.

AJG That is so, but that was definitely with a view to testimony being rendered to His resurrection.

FCH Does that scripture in Acts 10 include what was referred to earlier in connection with the forty days?

AJG Oh! it does undoubtedly. It was then that He was seen by the witnesses, but it was given with a view to their witnessing to the fact that God had raised Him from the dead, and in a way, one would suggest, that was all that was in view in that scripture; but this scripture is rather that the features of eternal life, as seen in Christ, were taken account of by the twelve, so that they could bear witness of it to ourselves.

PL Do you think the fact that the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are linked on with the twelve foundations in Revelation 21: 14, suggests the impregnable foundation on which all was inaugurated in a trustworthy company of chosen persons - “the men whom thou gavest me”?

AJG I think so. I think it helps to take account of the peculiarly privileged position that the twelve were in as companying with the Lord, so that in John 17, for instance, we find the Lord saying to His Father - “the words which thou hast given me,” that is the divine communications, “I have given them, and they have received them,” John 17: 8. The communications from His Father, which the Lord was constantly receiving, He communicated to the twelve, drawing them into this wonderful fellowship, the fellowship with the Father and with His Son. They were constantly imbibing the Father’s thoughts as communicated to the Son and as passed on by the Son to the twelve.

EJH And in the beginning of the Acts the one who was to take the place of Judas had to be equal in witness to that which the eleven had known.

AJG Yes, he had to be one who had assembled with them all the time the Lord Jesus came in and went out among them, beginning from the baptism of John to the day when He was taken up; so that, as you say, he had to be one who had the same experiences as the twelve.

HDT Does not the expression “until the day in which he was taken up” show that the forty days of the Lord’s coming in and out were necessary for their education to be completed?

AJG Yes, it does.

PHH How do you regard the Lord’s Person in all this? Clearly, as I understand, the life which you are now speaking of refers to Him as Man, the seeing and contemplating and handling would refer to Him as Man, but behind all that there lies the glory of His Person. Would you just say a little about that, that His Person in a way affects all this?

AJG I think His Person gives character to the life; it was a life lived in constant communion with His Father, but we are brought into it through the testimony of the apostles and by the Holy Spirit.

JMcK Does the idea of being “manifested to us” involve the completeness of what was manifested? It is not simply what was presented in testimony and might, or might not, have been received, but does the suggestion “has been manifested to us” involve a kind of adequacy and completeness?

AJG I would think so. God presented things in their completeness and wholeness at the very beginning, and what John is combating, in his first epistle, is certain suggestions that there was to be a development in Christianity over and above what came out at the beginning. He is countering that by setting out the complete thought that was in the mind of God, as set out perfectly in Christ to start with, and then everything taking character from that which was from the beginning.

EJH And there is no lower standard than that for anybody?

AJG No. So that when God brought in man in His creation, He set out the full thought that was in His mind, in the sense that Adam was never a child. Everyone else that came on the scene afterwards had to grow up to that, but the full thought was set out in Adam. So it is now with Christ; the full thought of what is to characterise Christianity, the life that is to mark it, is set out in Jesus and now we are to take character from it.

GAL Is the life that was in Christ in that way referred to by Him in John 10: 38 where He says, “that ye may know and believe that the Father is in me and I in him”?

AJG Well, that would underlie it; that passage, I suppose, is a question of the truth of His Person.

AH Would you think the substance that appears in this remarkable word of John was gathered up from an occasion amongst others, like chapter 13, where he leant on the bosom of Jesus?

AJG I would think so, and what an impression of God John must have got, when Jesus washed his feet and the feet of all the disciples. He had in his soul the light of the glory of Christ and he would constantly say to himself, ‘that is what God is capable of, a love of that character that will stoop so low and wash the feet of disciples.’ So that in the coming day God is going to wipe away every tear from every eye, that is what God is capable of; and I believe John on that occasion would get an impression of that from the fact that Jesus stooped and washed his feet and wiped them Himself.

GRC Is there any link between this and Paul’s expression in Ephesians “the life of God”?

AJG I think there is. I have thought of that; will you say something more?

GRC I wondered whether that bore on what was being said as to the Lord’s Person. The Person here was no less than God, so that what was manifested in Him was a substantial expression of the divine nature in a man.

AJG Yes, and a perfect answer, in a man too, to all that God was as set out in Himself, so that both sides are in Him, do you not think? “He is the true God,” it says at the end of this epistle, “and eternal life.”

GRC And have you in mind that what came out in Him, in that way, is to give character to what the city is, the cube you spoke of? Is it the formation in the saints of these features?

AJG Exactly. It is God coming out first in Christ and then in a vessel which is His fulness.

WHK Would it be diverting you to ask why, in the beginning of Acts during the forty days when the Lord shows Himself living, He speaks of the things concerning the kingdom of God?

AJG I think that is important because that is what we need. He assembled with them in order to convey to them impressions of the assembly, but He spoke to them the things concerning the kingdom of God; that is the bringing us into subjection to God by the Spirit, so that room is made for the substantial work of the Spirit in us, because after all Christianity is nothing if it is not substantial.

JSE May I ask if we have to approach the truth of the Person of Christ by way of the substantiality of His place as Man? I thought the term, “That which was from the beginning” is unquestionably a reference to His coming into manhood, and in chapter 5, “He is the true God and eternal life” is unquestionably an allusion to His Person. And are there developed touches, as we proceed in chapters 1 and 2, up to chapter 3, to show how immediately we are dependent on what was the portion of the twelve? We are thus brought into the gain of that, and the “we” in chapter 3, “Beloved, now are we children of God,” is inclusive rather than exclusive to the twelve.

AJG Yes, quite so. It is important to distinguish in that way in this epistle. Sometimes when the, apostle says “we” or “us” or “our” he is referring to the apostles, as, for instance, here, “our fellowship is indeed with the Father,” and then again in chapter 4: 6, “We are of God; he that knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us.” That is clearly apostolic; but then the verse you quoted from chapter 3, “now are we children of God,” is general, embracing all believers; and so in chapter 5, verse 19, “We know that we are of God,” that would refer to all believers, all the children of God. We thus have to distinguish through the epistle as to when he is referring to what was exclusively apostolic, and when he is referring to the children of God as a whole.

PL Is there in the two thoughts that blend of authority and mutuality, so essential to the continuation of things here?

AJG That helps, I am sure. Authority in what is apostolic, but mutuality in what belongs to all the brethren.

ABP May we be inclined to think of the twelve as rather slow to move in relation to the heavenly side of things which came out under Paul, and does this balance our thoughts in that to see the distinctive place they had in the foundation of Christianity?

AJG I am sure that is important; so that was there not great substance with them? One has felt how, as we read this chapter, we are impressed with the fact that while we are being introduced to the thought of eternal life in its blessedness, yet immediately in verse 5 the apostle brings in the side of what is moral, “that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” One has been impressed with the thought that Peter got a sense of that in John 6, when he says, “to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal.” That shows that he valued the eternal life, but then he goes on to say, “we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God.” He immediately shows that in connection with the thought of eternal life there must be the conditions that are suitable to what God is as light, and that was perfectly seen in Jesus, “we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God.”

ABP Does that expression involve our going into the presence of God?

AJG I am sure it does.

RJW Would you say a little more about verse 2, being in a parenthesis, speaking of life and then eternal life?

AJG It was the word of life that the apostle speaks of; that is to say, the intelligible expression of life, according to God’s thought of what life is. It was intelligibly expressed and conveyed to them in Christ, but then he goes on to say that what he has specially in mind is the eternal life. Life is a wider thought than eternal life; so that we get in Romans 8, the Spirit is life on account of righteousness. That, in a way, is power to move in every position in which we are, including our position in responsibility and testimony, but eternal life is more limited and is connected with living in relation to the Father and His world.

GCS Does that involve the saints dwelling together in unity?

AJG Well, those are the conditions in which it is enjoyed.

GRC Do you regard the expression, “the eternal life, which was with the Father” as in some ways peculiar to the Son? When it is extended to us would we have to link the Son and the Spirit with the matter?

AJG Yes, I think so. I think it was, in a sense, initially set out as unique to Christ, on account of who He is in His Person, but then it says later on, “God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son.” That involves that we come into it by the Spirit.

HDT The Spirit’s witness is mentioned in that very connection, in chapter 5.

AJG Yes, indeed. So that it is a very wonderful thing that we have been brought into, the life that is really ours. If you think of Jesus and what He would speak of to the disciples. Peter says, “thou hast words of life eternal.” Well, what would the Lord be speaking about in them? He would be speaking about the Father and the Father’s world, and all that in which God found His life (speaking reverently) and in which Christ found His life as Man with Him.

PHH Is that hinted at in the use of this word ‘fellowship’ in verse 3, ‘that ye also may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ”? Was there a peculiar nearness in the apostles, the twelve, to the Son, so that the impress of these wonderful things came first-hand to them, but the report is to bring us into it?

AJG That is how I understand it, I think that verse in John 17 is a most impressive verse. The Lord says to the Father “the words,” that is ‘divine communications,’ “which thou hast given me I have given them.” Think of all that the Father communicated to Christ as Man here, and the Lord passing it on to the twelve, and now it seems to me that really is the basis of this epistle.

HDT And do you get in John 15 a moral basis for that? “I call you no longer bondmen, for the bondman does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things which I have heard of my Father I have made known to you.” Was there capability to receive what was given to them on that basis?

AJG Yes, I would say that.

PHH But, if we may follow up what you were saying, this life is only made known to us in power and in conditions by the Spirit, and that immediately brings in the moral element. Is that right?

AJG It does, indeed, and that is so important. The Spirit has indited for us the gospels and the various epistles, especially this epistle, so that we might have the capacity to enter, in the Spirit, into that which the apostles enjoyed before the gospels and epistles were written.

ABP Does that link again with John 6: 63, “It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing - the words which I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life.”

AJG Yes, it does, and I think it is most important for us to notice that immediately this is introduced the moral element is introduced “that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” That is to be characteristic of the life, and in the passage referred to in John 15, the Lord shows that He (speaking reverently) was governed by the moral element; He says He abode in the Father’s love on the ground that He kept His Father’s commandments.

FCH Why is this put in the form of a message here in verse 5, and again later in the epistle?

AJG I think it is to emphasise the importance of it. It is not just an item of truth, but a specific message, which the Lord gave to John to communicate,

and he brings it in at the very outset as though it is a matter of supreme importance that we should understand “that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” That must govern us in our movements with one another in this fellowship.

PL Does the idea of a message bring out the immensity and vitality of having a word straight from Christ, in contrast to the speculations that were floating around?

AJG Yes, I think so. A word direct from Christ to enforce this matter.

PL One is thinking of Mary of Magdala in John 20; she is a messenger there too, in another setting.

AJG Quite so.

PL Is a message what is specific, concise and final?

AJG Exactly. We can see the importance of this, because, if we refer again to the heavenly city, the transparency of it is stressed; it says “as a crystal-like jasper stone” and then the first foundation is jasper and so on.

PL So that when the moral issue is raised by the Lord with the woman of John 4, after He has enlarged on divine giving, is she not secured testimonially in transparency in her utterance to the men of the city - “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done”? Will not the city, as the product of what is moral, be a great transparent vessel of shedding divine glory over the universe?

AJG I think that is important. Our first introduction to the city, in its millennial character, is that it comes down “out of heaven from God, having the glory of God,” that shows its substantiality, that it is really formed in love. But then it immediately goes on to say, “Her shining was like ... a crystal-like jasper stone” (Revelation 21: 11), emphasising this feature of transparency.

EJH In Luke’s gospel the Lord speaks of the single eye and the whole body being light, having no part dark. Would you link that with this too?

AJG Yes, I would.

EJH There are dark parts with us all, even though they may be small and perhaps unrecognised, but the thought is that there should be no part dark?

AJG That brings us again, as so much does, to the great value of the abiding presence with us of the Holy Spirit, who is God. He has access to the inmost recesses of our minds and hearts, and so it says that God will have truth in the inward parts. That is a most important thing for us to remind ourselves of constantly.

ECM The Lord says in John 3: 21, “he that practises the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they have been wrought in God.”

AJG That is another striking passage, and one has thought of it. It is a remarkable expression, “his works ... have been wrought in God.” It links with this epistle and shows how much the intention is that we should have God livingly before us, so that all our movements can be said to be “wrought in God”; they are in the full light of what God is as known to us.

WSS I was thinking, when you were speaking of the city, of the street which is said to be of “pure gold, as transparent glass,” that if we are to be in the enjoyment of this fellowship we must be walking in that street.

AJG I am sure that is right.

GRC So that this line, which you are speaking .of, would be the way in which we reach fulness of joy according to verse 4?

AJG That is another encouraging thing, that fulness of joy is in mind for us all; the Lord could speak of “my joy.”

HDT It is remarkable that John should state his object before he enlarges upon such a searching line of things.

AJG Exactly, you mean that that would encourage us to face all that is searching?

HDT Yes, quite so.

WC May we infer that this message came from the breast and the bosom of Jesus, in that way? I was thinking of John’s position according to chapter 13 of his gospel and wondering whether the thought of light and love is not very definitely there, the bosom stressing the love, and the breast suggesting the breast-plate of the high priest, bringing these moral exercises?

AJG I think that is very likely. It is striking that just following on that Judas goes out, as though there is power in the light and love to exclude a foreign element.

GRC Would you mind saying something as to the thought of light? It says here, “God is light” and lower down, “He is in the light,” but Paul tells us that He dwells in light unapproachable?

AJG He is light, so that it says in Ephesians 5: 13 “that which makes everything manifest is light,” so that God causes what He is in Himself, you might say, not, of course, what we cannot know, but what He is to shine upon everything; everything is thus made manifest in its true character by God shining upon it.

WH “In thy light shall we see light.”

AJG I suppose it came out fully at the cross, because there evil was exposed and fully judged consistently with God’s nature, but love shone out as rising above it all.

GP In Acts 5 the apostles are charged by the angel to go and speak in the temple to the people “all the words of this life”; does the fact that that chapter begins with the facing of moral issues confirm what you are saying?

AJG That is very interesting; one has often thought of that expression “all the words of this life.” It was something that could be seen in Jerusalem among the saints there, but as you say, the angel would tell the apostles to call attention to it after moral questions had been faced. It was clear, therefore, that the saints were really walking in the light, as God was in the light.

JAP What is the thought of “the blood” here?

AJG We are coming to that shortly. It is that by means of which we are able to continue in fellowship with one another, notwithstanding what our flesh is. But we are just seeking now to get a little further help on the question of light, first God being light and then His being “in the light.”

HFR Does His being “in the light” involve the declaration of John 1: 18?

AJG I believe it is a very important matter and involves the full light that has come to us. If we are to walk in the light, as God is in the light, first of all we have got to face the fact that “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” If we face that then we are in liberty, it seems to me, to walk in the light, and that is the full light in which God is known. All that is involved in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is what we should now be walking in and having fellowship in together, because that is the light in which God is now known.

ABP There is only one street in the city, is there not?

AJG Quite so.

PHH Would that shed any light on the early chapters of Genesis, where God called for light first of all, and then named it, and then operated in it?

AJG I think Mr. Taylor has remarked that it is a principle of God’s ways that He works in the light,

so that the first thing is that He commands light, and then, as you say, He operates. Had you that in mind?

PHH Yes, as being different from God dwelling in “unapproachable light.” We can never know anything about that, I suppose, but there is that which God has called for and in which He operates, and would it be right to say that the whole of the revelation really is involved in that?

AJG I think so.

GRC Do you think the fact that we are told that God dwells in “unapproachable light” is to stress the idea of light, though we cannot approach that light? He speaks in the Old Testament, as far as men were concerned, of dwelling in “thick darkness,” but in His essential Being He dwells in “unapproachable light”?

AJG Yes, quite so, I think that is important, so that darkness is not connected with the thought of God at all.

HDT This has the effect upon us in view, has it not, and is the way to come into the thing to be affected by it morally? It says in Psalm 97: 11, “Light is sown for the righteous, and joy for the upright in heart”?

AJG Exactly.

APCL If we understand that God is light, does not that become attractive to us, because light will bring us into contact with God Himself?

AJG Quite so.

APCL Do you not think there is a tendency with us rather to fear light and coming into the light, whereas, God being light and not only “in the light” stresses what He is Himself - perfect goodness, does it not?

AJG Exactly, but, of course, the natural heart of man does not understand that, and hence the grace of the way in which God has approached men in Christ. The woman in John 4 proved it, that there was a Man sitting with her and speaking to her of the most wonderful things in order to attract her, and then we see there is movement on her part in response. Then He brings the light to bear upon her, but in such a way as not to discourage her.

APCL Quite so. But is not that where we so often fail in the presentation of light, not knowing what God is. He is light?

AJG Quite so.

EJH Would you say that light exposed her, but grace retained her?

AJG Yes, we could indeed say that, and then in the process of retention, so to speak, she would learn that the very light that exposed her also brought in what would meet her need, both were there in the Person of Christ.

JH Light comes to us and not we to the light exactly?

AJG No; but it comes to us in order that we may come to the light. We get the verse in John 3, that has already been quoted, “he that practises the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they have been wrought in God.”

WSS Have we not been very blessedly learning latterly something of what it is to walk, perhaps in a fuller way, in the light of the revelation of God known as Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

AJG That is exactly what I thought. If we read that “God is in the light” and then we are to walk “in the light,” that immediately raises the question with us, ‘What is the light in which God is?’ That is now all that is involved in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and we are to see that we are all walking in it, so that we have fellowship with one another.

WSS And are we not finding practically that the result of this wonderful help we have had is opening up the truth of the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in one way and another all through the Scriptures?

AJG Yes.

WC Is not the light the light of love?

AJG It is, because God is love.

WC I think Mr. Raven said ‘the light was relative, but the love was absolute.’ May I ask what connection has grace and truth with this light according to John 1?

AJG I suppose grace and truth are the light adapting itself to man in his condition of need. Obviously grace is needed, but not grace at the expense of truth; so we have there the wonderful combination of grace and truth.

PL Would it be right to say that the light of the Trinity, in the way you have spoken, is to give body to the fellowship, as also preservation to us in it?

AJG I think so. It brings the light of love, as has been said, and yet love in absolute holiness.

ASM It says in Psalm 43: 3, “Send out thy light and thy truth - they shall lead me, they shall bring me to thy holy mount, and unto thy habitations.”

AJG That is good. The light and truth as received by us bring us to God; they have that in mind and they lead us to God and His holy habitation.

TJG Is the thought of substantiality seen in the expression “sons of light,” “children of light” and “the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth”?

AJG Yes, I suppose so, “sons of light” are those fully developed by the light.

ABP You have referred to John 4 several times, do we have the matter worked out in remarkable fulness there, because the Father and the Son and the Spirit are referred to in the Economy and then do you think all is summed up (if we may use that expression) in the statement “God is a spirit, and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth”?

AJG Yes, that is very interesting and the “must” is important. In having to do with God, God being God, there is a certain “must” that has to enter into our relations with God; our relations with God must be in keeping with what He is.

PHH Is there a certain magnifying of that light in John 14, where the three Persons of the Godhead are brought before us objectively, each one to be taken account of and approached? Is that light given perhaps in a more private way, affording help in this great matter?

AJG I think it does, and it leads up to the Lord saying, “If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him.” So that you have the Father and the Son coming; the Spirit is already there, because that comes in the section in which the Lord has spoken of the abiding presence of the Spirit with us. We thus have the whole Godhead there arriving at tabernacle conditions, dwelling happily with one who is marked by keeping Christ’s word. And we come to that in this passage at the beginning of chapter 2, “whoever keeps his word, in him verily the love of God is perfected.”

PHH I would like to ask, if it is not going astray from the line, for a little word about the sonship of Christ. It says in the end of verse 3, “our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” Do you draw a distinction between “his Son,” that is the Son of God or the Son of the Father, and the term “the Son” as used in Scripture?

AJG There is no doubt a distinction, but not, in a sense, too hard and fast. We get, for instance, in chapter 5: 12, “He that has the Son has life - he that has not the Son of God has not life.” I think the expression “the Son” is used to convey the personal dignity of Christ, whereas “the Son of God” views Him in that relationship with God. He is the standard of manhood according to God, so that we are to arrive at “the unity of the knowledge of the Son of God.”

PHH Yes, I think that distinction helps, because we are, as you have just quoted, to arrive at “the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God,” which is evidently, therefore, something available to us. On the other hand we have the statement, “No one knows the Son,” and again later, “as to the Son, thy throne, O God.” Would it help at all to take account of the distinctiveness which goes with the title “the Son”?

AJG It does, and yet, of course, those scriptures are speaking of the Son as in manhood; the scripture “no one know the Son but the Father” indicates that He is in His Person God, and as such is unknowable to us; we only know Him in His manhood.

EJH Has it been said, by Mr. Raven, that “the Son” is the highest and greatest title of the Lord?

AJG I could not say whether he has said that, but it is true, I think.

GRC Would you say that there is no thought in Scripture of others being associated with Him under the title of “the Son,” but there is with the title “the Son of God”?

AJG Yes.

WC Is not “the Son” the line of the revelation of God, and “his Son” more the response to that, including making room for others to be with Him?

AJG So that we have received the Spirit of His Son, God having sent out the Spirit of His Son in our hearts. The response thus from the saints should be adequate to satisfy the heart of God.

GCS What is the difference between this fellowship and the fellowship in 1 Corinthians 1: 9, “the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord”?

AJG That is more in a public and testimonial position and refers very much to the position of the tribes in the wilderness round the tabernacle. They were all committed to that one common interest, and it is dignified for us by its being called “the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.” But this is fellowship in connection with the inward privileges of the saints, and connects more perhaps with the unity of the Spirit as we have in Ephesians 4, “There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling.” This fellowship would link with that, whereas “the fellowship of God’s Son Jesus Christ our Lord,” would link more with “one Lord, one faith, one baptism,” Ephesians 4: 4, 5.

AM May I ask for help as to the perception of light? I was thinking of man as having a conscience and as to how light gains entrance to him. Is that to be in our minds as to the moral side that is always raised when it is a question of light?

AJG I think that is right, only we have to bear in mind the great subject of being born anew, “Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God,” John 3: 3. That involves what you speak of as perception, does it not?

AM Quite so.

AJG So that we have to carry in our minds that apart from the sovereign operation of the Spirit we cannot see things. At the same time, there is the responsibility to see light when it is presented, and so it says in John 3: 19, “this is the judgment, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light; for their works were evil,”

JMcD Would you distinguish between the different aspects of fellowship here? There is the apostles’ fellowship “with the Father, and with his Son,” our fellowship with them, as it says, “that ye also may have fellowship with us” and then we have “fellowship with one another.”

AJG Yes, but there is not such a lot of difference between them, except that the apostles had a distinctive place in the inauguration of Christianity, so that the early believers “persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles,” Acts 2: 42. That, of course, is what we come into too, in due time; we have the apostles’ fellowship in the divinely-given record in the gospels and the epistles, and as moving together in these things, in the Holy Spirit, we have fellowship with one another.

APCL Is there the suggestion of having fellowship with God in verse 6?

AJG Quite so. “If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness …” The fellowship in which we walk does involve in that way having fellowship with God, and I believe what was remarked earlier is right, that it really leads to having part in what Ephesians calls “the life of God.”

WWM The Lord says in John 12: 36, “While ye have the light, believe in the light, that ye may become sons of light.” Do we have to believe in it to come into it?

AJG Yes. So that John’s gospel was written so that disciples might become believers, as Mr. Taylor has said.

CH Is it appropriate to ask for the answer to the question about the blood? Does it not come in in connection with this fellowship?

AJG Yes, it is a very important matter. “If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin,” verse 7. That is as moving together in these holy things we are constantly conscious of our need of living faith in the blood, you might say, the value and import of the blood.

CH So that whilst the light is attractive, as has been said, it also makes manifest; but then the divine provision is there for what it does make manifest?

AJG Exactly.

PL The efficacy of the blood, is it?

AJG The efficacy of it.

FCH Is the thought that the fellowship is maintained on its proper level?

AJG Quite so. So that there is no need to surrender the divine standard, “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.” That standard must be maintained amongst us, but then we have power to do it, and we can go on happily together, having fellowship with God and fellowship with one another, because the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

GRC Would you say why John, as a writer, stresses the blood so much; he is the only one who refers to it at the crucifixion?

AJG It may be because he has in mind that the saints should be in the truth livingly. What do you think yourself?

GRC I was thinking of what you have been saying as to God, the greatness of God, and God being light. John is writing from the highest level but he brings in the blood in a remarkable way.

AJG Quite so. Well, the blood testifies to the complete ending in death of the man that is offensive to God. At the same time, it brings out the exceeding preciousness to God of the sacrifice of Christ. God has been fully vindicated in regard of sin and He has been fully expressed in His nature of love. All that was possible only by the devoted sacrifice of Christ, and the blood speaks to God of the exceeding preciousness of that sacrifice, as well as testifying to the fact that the man who was offensive has been ended in death.

AMcG Referring back to what was said earlier about light and love, is it not essential to remember that both love and light are God’s nature. Mr. Darby stressed that, did he not?

AJG Yes. God is light and He is love, but then He comes into the light in order that men may know what He is and be fully and happily in it. That is the remarkable thing, that notwithstanding our past history, and the fact that we have the flesh with us, it is possible for us to be happily in the full light of God.

APB Is there a particular importance in bringing in the blood in view of the additions and doctrines that are current in the world? These are attached to the thought of Christianity, but make nothing of the blood, and I wondered if that was the kind of thing that John had to bring in something to correct?

AJG I think that is important. We shall come to that in chapter 5, where it says, “This is he that came by water and blood ... not by water only, but by water and blood,” as though to say the Lord did not come to reform man in the flesh; the water only might possibly suggest the cleansing of the man, but what He came to do was to secure him for God by removing the man that was offensive, so that it is by water and blood, the blood testifying to the fact that death had to be brought in.

WC Does verse 9 refer to the water, the cleansing, “if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness”?

AJG I think so.

GRC Could this be an elevated view of the blood, because it is “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son”?

AJG Quite so; it links with the scripture in Acts 20: 28 that God has purchased the assembly “with the blood of his own.” I believe we perhaps tend to think so much of the efficacy of the blood as meeting our side of things, that we do not realise the exceeding preciousness, in the sight of God, of the life that was laid down, and of the laying down of that life, and that is what the blood speaks of.

GRC So in Ephesians 1 Paul speaks of the blood of the Beloved. He says, “in whom we have redemption”; it is in the Beloved.

AJG Yes. Redemption through His blood.

PHH Does that bring in any thought of the immense sacrifice in love that God has made? I was thinking of that verse in Acts 20: 28, “the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own.”

AJG Quite so.

JSE Does the present tense of the verb bring into relief the peculiar value of “the family” in its stainlessness for God’s pleasure?

AJG I think it does. Do you not think it should be very affecting to us that God has in mind that we should always be walking “in the light,” clear of every defilement? There is no need that defilement should remain upon our consciences or spirits because “the blood of Jesus Christ his Son” is always available for us to appropriate fully.

WC Is not the practical side of that the “confessing”?

AJG That is a very important matter.

WC I think we need help as to that, when matters are settled with God, you might say, in a secret way, but the confession of sins and cleansing is in relation to unrighteousness, is it not? I was wondering whether we might get help on that assembly-wise as to meeting matters that are acknowledged but not confessed in assembly?

AJG Well, if an assembly fails it should confess its failure, as an assembly. The expression “if we confess our sins” is not our sins in a general way, but it is naming them before God, would you not think so?

WC Yes; I was thinking of the teaching in Leviticus and the bringing of the offering before the tent of meeting before Jehovah.

AJG Quite so.

TJG Are we then to understand that this confessing is not only to God, but if needed to men or in the midst of the assembly?

AJG Well, if needed. Scripture makes provision for all that. But I think it is important that in confessing, the thing is named; it is not a general thing, but the thing is named.

CH Here it is particularly before God, do you think, because of the cleansing? No action of the assembly could actually cleanse, could it?

AJG No, “if we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

AWGT You made a distinction between “admission” and “confession.” I wonder if it would help the brethren if you said something as to that?

AJG Well, if the particular sin is confessed before God, the true nature of it is named, that is all I had in mind, that we should be specific.

JD Is the confession of our sins in the light of the blood of Jesus Christ the moral basis on which the fellowship is enjoyed?

AJG I am sure it is, and it is most important that it should be continually maintained by us. But then, on the other hand, the apostle goes on to say “these things I write to you in order that ye may not sin.” The very fact that there is such perfect provision for us is not to make us careless in regard of sinning. He writes these things in order that we may not sin, but then that brings in, at once, the other side, that if anyone sin (there is the recognition that it may happen) “we have a patron with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the propitiation for our sins” - a most touching reference.

ABP Does all this hinge on walking in the light as He is in the light? What does that mean, “as he is in the light”?

AJG I think it means that all our walk is governed by the light in which God is known to us, do you not think so?

ABP Does it mean that what the Spirit has brought before us in the way of disclosures of the truth would be the light in which He is?

AJG Yes, it does.

Ques And would that provide fellowship of a substantial character?

AJG Fellowship of a substantial character that is governed by the light in which God is known. Every fresh recovery of truth to us ought, therefore, to have its effect upon our relations with one another and our service God-ward.

ABP And does the detail that is given in relation to the moral side of things show that the light will constantly bring to light in us things which need to be judged and dealt with, so that we are constantly moving into fresh appreciation of the light?

AJG I am sure of that, and constant appreciation of Christ as the One in whom there is the perfect answer in manhood to all that God is. He is the standard to which we are to grow up, and, at the same time, He is the One in whom we are to abide; it says that he that abides in Him does not sin.

PHH Do you take it that the expression, “in the light as he is in the light” refers to the revelation of God as a basic matter, or would you extend it as well into what may come to us by way of ministry and detail?

AJG I think what comes to us in the way of ministry and detail is just the opening up in detail of the way in which God has come out.

PHH Would it, therefore, perhaps sharpen our consciences and make it a more sensitive matter with us all the time?

AJG I think so.

JSE Is not that seen in the course of years, during the development of the truth amongst us, that certain things that we would not have connected in relation to the light years ago, we have to do so now, and we have to be more intense about them?

AJG I am sure that is right.

PL So that every ray of divine light works out in mutual affection for one another; as the light is the more enjoyed the saints are the more loved?

AJG I think so, and that promotes care for one another too, so that later on in this epistle we read of one seeing his brother sin; he is not careless about it, but he immediately takes it up with God.

WC In 1 Corinthians, the moment Paul mentions the fellowship, he beseeches them to be of one mind and one opinion.

AJG There cannot be fellowship, in the full sense of it, if there is not one mind and one opinion.

APCL Do you think that John’s reference in the beginning of chapter 2 to “my children” is on this line? In chapter 1 it is “we” - “these things write we to you” and “this is the message that we have heard.”

AJG It is “my children,” that is, it is John’s children. He is addressing all the saints, whether in their stature they are fathers or young men or little children they are all, you might say, John’s children, and he is addressing them in that affectionate way. It is clearly the spirit of the elder rather than the apostle.

APCL I wondered whether that might enter into ministry in these times?

AJG It might, but I suppose it requires a certain moral power to be able to speak like this.

APCL I wondered whether chapter 1 was not the setting out of the thing, which is unchallengeable and unquestionable, but now it is a matter of his own moral stature in writing in saying “my children” and “I write to you, children”?

AJG So that those to whom he wrote would understand that it was John writing, and all that John was, as one who was perhaps peculiarly formed in holy love, would enter into these exhortations, do you think?

APCL I thought that and, therefore, if that was so, there would not be so much questioning as to authority in the ministry.

AJG I do feel that this is one thing that perhaps this epistle may help us in, the importance of taking on substance and genuineness and reality, because then moral power in the ministry will follow.

FCH Is it not very appealing that it is the One whose blood cleanses us, who is our patron?

AJG Quite so, and He is always in the Father’s presence in the value of His own Person and work. We have, it says, “a patron with the Father”; He is always there in that character, One who is upholding the interests of His own.

PL One whom the Father has and could deny nothing to?

AJG Quite so.

GRC Is His service as the patron in view of maintaining the fellowship here inviolate? It does not simply say the one who sins has a patron, but “we have a patron.”

AJG Well, yes. This thought of the patron is a wonderful thing; He is there for all the saints, all the family of God. “We have a patron” - He is always there.

PHH Is the emphasis on the fact that He is with the Father?

AJG I think so.

PHH So that the position is maintained as has been said; it must go through.

AJG Quite so.

HDT There is an extension, of course, in the thought of propitiation, is there not?

AJG Yes. He is it; “He is the propitiation for our sins.” That is, He is there personally in the value of all that He has accomplished.

APCL Is the suggestion “if any one sin” that it really brings in something that is foreign to this wonderful system?

AJG Quite so.

APCL Therefore, he is presenting one that is able to meet the situation perfectly?

AJG The patron, you might say, gives the answer to it immediately Himself.

APCL Do you think, therefore, there is the necessity for maintaining, in a certain sense, an objective ministry of Christ?

AJG I am sure that is important.

WD Why does John keep testing the position?

AJG Because he has in mind that things should go through in the power of life, and that they should not be corrupted. You cannot exactly corrupt life, as he has in mind that we should be concerned in these last days as to genuineness and the reality of what we profess and that we should be in it substantially.

WD He was specially fitted for this ministry.

AJG Yes, he was one who is regarded as going right through. The Lord said in regard of John, “if I will that he abide until I come,” so what John stands for goes right through to the end, and that is why it is that his writings are so important for us now in these days.

AH Would he have seen this service of Christ in operation when the Lord said to Peter “I have prayed for thee”?

AJG Well, yes, quite so. Now the position is established, “we have a patron with the Father.”

CWO'LM Would you say a little, please, as to “Jesus Christ the righteous”?

AJG It is stressing the moral side of things, that He is the righteous. We might have thought it would say, Jesus Christ His Son, stressing the relationship of affection, but it is rather stressing the moral side of things; “Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the propitiation for our sins.”

GAL In the effecting of the propitiation, He has glorified God entirely about the whole question of sin, has He not?

AJG He has. It is a most important matter always to keep that in mind.

JSE Is the word ‘patron’ not exactly connected with relationship itself, but with the management of the relationship which He looks after?

AJG Yes, I think so.

GWB Would you say another word as to the meaning of “propitiation” in this setting?

AJG Well, God’s nature and His throne required that sin should be unsparingly judged, and Christ has met every requirement of the throne and every demand of God’s nature by the sacrifice of Himself. The whole position is thus met fully and, in a sense, you might say, more than fully, because not only has the sacrifice of Christ met every demand of God’s throne and every requirement of His nature, but the devotedness in which He did sacrifice Himself has, so to speak, covered the whole scene with fragrance. I think it is a very blessed thing to think of that fragrance, the fragrance of Christ; His devotedness fills the presence of God.

HW Is that why, in the last line of verse 2, the sins of the whole world are not mentioned, it is a propitiation for the whole world?

AJG Yes, I suppose it is because it is provisional. Mr. Raven used to say that it meant that the world was provisionally in reconciliation, and I suppose that position remains until they set up another man, antichrist.

HW So the whole position is covered by this wonderful act of propitiation?

AJG By the wonderful act and by His personal presence before God.

AH Is the propitiation always connected with sins and not sin?

AJG Yes, I think so.

← Previous 3 of 13 Next →