THE SUBSTANTIALITY OF CHRISTIANITY (5)
THE SUBSTANTIALITY OF CHRISTIANITY (5)
AJG This chapter seems to emphasise the victory, or supremacy, that attaches to those who are begotten of God, the very existence of the world, which lies in the wicked one, only giving occasion for the superiority and ultimate supremacy of God, showing itself in those begotten of Him, to come into evidence. It is a great triumph for God, that He should be established thus in supremacy in the hearts of His own. We get the statement to begin with, that “Every one that believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God,” and then the love amongst ourselves that embraces those who are thus begotten of Him. We can see, I think, that no one but one who is begotten of God would believe that Jesus is the Christ. He is the kind of Man, according to Isaiah 53, who is despised and rejected of men, one from whom men turn away; so that no one but one in whom God has wrought would believe that Jesus is the Christ, the chosen One of God, to the exclusion of every other. So that Christ, in that way, becomes the test and the evidence of the work of God, or of the generation of God. As soon as the matter of loving the children of God comes in, the Spirit of God (through the writer of the epistle) brings in, as He often does, an immediate test, a test as to the genuineness of our love, whether it really is love that is of God or not. “Hereby know we that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.”
EJH Would those commandments embody the whole truth as given to us in the Scriptures?
AJG I suppose everything that is the expression of the will of God would have the character of commandment, because God is God; but it turns our thoughts, it seems to me, to Christ, the Ark of the testimony. God introduced a Man who loved God’s will and had it in His heart, and in doing so gave testimony to the fact that He would secure a whole system taking character from Him.
JSE Is there any thought in this first verse that we endorse, as begotten of God, God’s full committal to Jesus as the anointed Man?
AJG Yes, I think there is. That is how it appeals to me. We can easily read it, “Every one that believes that Jesus is the Christ,” and perhaps not see the import of it. But if we think of what kind of Man Jesus is, and what is involved in His being the Christ, the One to whom God has committed Himself to the exclusion of every other, I think we can see that no one, save one who is begotten of God, will really take that up, that He is the Christ.
ECM Does that come in in John 4? The woman said, “is not he the Christ?” following on the thought of new birth.
AJG Yes, that is so. The gospel is written, as we know, that we might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and believing have life in His name. The woman in chapter 4 comes to it that He is the Christ, and the man in chapter 9 comes to it that He is the Son of God, and Martha in her confession embraces both.
WSS Because John has the full scope of the truth in mind, would you think it would link up with Ephesians 3, “that the Christ may dwell, through faith in your hearts,” the whole system of glory of which He is Head?
AJG It would go on to that, I have no doubt. That is the full working out of it.
PL The terminus in John’s epistle is eternal life, is it not, not further than that.
AJG It is. What have you in mind?
PL Well, in John’s writings sonship is presented in Christ, but not in the saints save just at the end.
AJG Just so.
WHK John uses both words “born of God” and “begotten of God.” Would you kindly say if you see any distinction or difference in the terms?
AJG I suppose the two terms together embrace the whole thought of what God effects in those who receive His testimony. The “begetting” is by means of what is presented in testimony, and the thought of “born,” I suppose, involves the subjective work of the Spirit of God.
PL Does it mean that we are God’s offspring morally?
AJG Quite so.
JH The expression is used “of God.” The apostle in the previous chapter says, “Ye are of God, children,” and then later in the chapter “We are of God.” How would that link up with the verse in John 6 where the Lord is speaking and He says, “not that any one has seen the Father, except he who is of God, he has seen the Father,” verse 46. Is being of God a different thought, from being born or begotten of God?
AJG I am inclined to think that the verse you refer to in John 6 refers to the Lord personally; it says “except he who is of God, he” (emphatic) “has seen the Father.” But when we come to this epistle we are dealing with what is either begotten or born of God and that can be spoken of as “of God” characteristically. So that, as you say, in verse 4 of chapter 4 we have “Ye are of God, children,” then in verse 6, “We” - apostolic “we” - “are of God; he that knows God hears us” and so on. Then again in verse 19 of this chapter we have, “We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the wicked one.” I think where we get “of God” as attached to the saints, it is just that that is characteristic of us as born of Him.
GAL And in view of redemption accomplished and the Holy Spirit received?
AJG Oh! well, quite so. It is only as receiving the Spirit that we are born of God.
JSE In perusing what Jesus says Himself and what others say of Him, is there need to keep the line of truth clear in our minds, and worshipfully range ourselves in the presence of Christ in what He says of Himself, and thankfully range ourselves in the presence of the family and what is said of us?
AJG Yes, I think that is good.
JSE So that when the Lord speaks to the Father in John 17, He actually says “that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” Is He not there specifically alluding to Himself in His place as Man, whereas when the writer of this epistle says “He is the true God and eternal life” he is alluding to Christ in the glory and greatness of His Person?
AJG Yes, exactly. Hence that shows that we have to be constantly fluid in our thoughts, and dependent too, because the truth as to the Godhead especially cannot be compassed by the natural mind; it has to be received and held in the Spirit.
GRC You said just now that we are born of God as having received the Spirit. Would you enlarge on that a bit?
AJG I was only thinking that in the 3rd chapter of John’s gospel we have the initial work of God referred to in one being born anew, without which no one can see the kingdom of God. Then it refers to one that is born of water and of Spirit, but I think when you get “born of God” that is the complete thought, as far as I understand it, and is only true of one who has received the Spirit. Is that right?
GRC Does that help as to our own place and those of other families, because every family will be born anew, will they not?
AJG Yes.
GRC But in this dispensation it can be said that we are “born of God” involving what you say, the gift of the Spirit.
AJG Yes, quite so, and begotten by the full revelation of God that is characteristic of Christianity.
GRC Only through the gift of the Spirit can that full revelation really form us.
AJG Quite so.
JMcD Would it be right to say that new birth in John 3 is connected with the kingdom of God, and being born of God is connected with the family of God?
AJG Yes, I think that is right, only it is just that we want to be clear as to what “born of God” involves, because it seems to be a full thought, and I think it is right to say that it connects with those that are the product of the full revelation of God in Christ, characteristic of this dispensation.
EJH Would that be in any way connected with the word “being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God.” I am thinking of the word of God in the revelation that you have spoken of?
AJG Yes, I suppose so.
WC Is not the full thought in the 1st chapter of John’s gospel, verses 12 and 13, where it says, “who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh’s will, nor of man’s will, but of God.” That is predicated of those who have received Christ.
AJG Quite so.
WC So it would not be quite the initial thought, would it? It would be beyond the initial thought of being born of the Spirit?
AJG Quite so. Is not the thought of being born of water and of the Spirit to stress that what is the result is spirit?
WC Quite so.
PHH It says in James 1: 18 that by His word He begat us, “According to his own will begat he us by the word of truth.” Were you thinking of that as being more an initial, preliminary thing, “born of God” being the full thought?
AJG I do not know that I would limit that, “According to his own will begat he us by the word of truth, that we should be a certain first-fruits of his creatures.” I do not know that I would make that anything less than being born of God; it seems to me it is just presenting the truth from a different aspect.
PHH Does it bring before us in any sense the process (for want of a better word)? I am trying to get a little more at the thought of the “born of God” suggestion being the full thought.
AJG Well, there is “begat he us,” it says, “by the word of truth.” It is His own operation; “begat he us by the word of truth.” There is the positive presentation of the truth as to God in testimony in Christ, and that has a result in those who receive it, and then there is the formative work of the Spirit which, I suppose, corresponds in a sense with the thought of “born of God.” So that the complete thought is there.
PHH Would “According to his own will” bring in the full purpose of God?
AJG Yes, “according to his own will.”
AHG Would the believer be in danger from the world until this is reached, born of God? I was thinking of the verse, “For all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world.”
AJG Yes, and then it says that what gets the victory over the world is our faith; that is, the Christian faith. But here again, do you not think,
the apostle is presenting the truth absolutely and abstractly, because alas! there are many as to whose genuineness as believers we have no doubt but who are not victorious over the world, and that is the unfortunate truth that we have to face at the moment. No doubt they will eventually repudiate it in their souls, but the truth is being presented absolutely and abstractly here, that what gains the victory over the world is our faith, the true Christian faith.
HDT Would this scripture help our hearts to be habituated to the inclusive character of the love that is proper to us, because there are no sections in the family, are there?
AJG No.
HDT And while “born of God” we may see, involves what is substantial in the full thought, any one in whom God has operated is in the family. It is not dependent upon their growth, is it?
AJG No, it is not. Do you think that these are the characteristics, you might say, of the family, and they are brought before us in order that we should be increasingly exercised to range ourselves in our thoughts with what is of God, in ourselves and in one another, and in that way make more room for the Spirit to develop what is in keeping with it?
HDT I believe that is a most important thing, and the more we gave ourselves to it the more we should have in our affections all those in whom God has operated.
AJG Quite so.
WHK The term “only-begotten,” is referred to Christ in manhood here and in testimony. Would you say a word as to that, please?
AJG Well, I suppose “only-begotten” is a term of peculiar endearment, is it not?
JAP Does this belong to the heavenly things? The Lord speaks of being born of water and of the Spirit as to earthly things, does He not?
AJG The Lord speaks first of all of being born anew, and then of being born of water and of Spirit, “Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Then He says, “If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?” I do not know that one can say too much about that. It has been rightly said that every family that God brings into being, including earthly families, will be born anew, and no doubt the Lord was alluding to Ezekiel, but the great point is that the present time is the time for heavenly things.
BW What would the word in Peter’s epistle be, “born again, not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God.”
AJG That is to stress the abidingness and incorruptibility of the result. I think I remember Mr. Taylor saying that it seems to connect up especially with the spiritual intelligence of the saints.
HDT And it would be in contrast to the passing character of man, as it says there “all flesh is as grass,” and so on.
AJG Yes. Quite so.
HCS Does the expression “born of God” bring persons more before us, whereas the thought of new birth stresses the work of God?
AJG I think there is something in that. Would you say a little more?
HCS I was thinking of what you were speaking of, the complete thing, and how the completeness is seen in persons who are morally of God, and are not the characteristics you spoke of - righteousness and love - an exhibition of that? But is not the new birth in John 3 connected with “that” - “that which is born”?
AJG Well, yes. So that we get in the beginning of this chapter, “Every one that believes that Jesus is Christ is begotten of God”; but then in verse 4 you get “all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world”; regarding the result in the saints in its totality.
GRC Would this thought of being born of God be the basis of what you referred to at the beginning of these meetings, the idea of substantiality, that God has here what really is a continuation of Christ?
AJG Yes, and the expression of Himself morally.
I believe it is important to keep that in mind. It is, of course, the continuation of Christ, but the great point is that God is brought in in testimony and this is maintained here in His children, and in final result God Himself gains the victory. He enters Himself into the situation created by the incoming of sin, and demonstrates His supremacy over it all, and in result acquires the supreme place, indeed, in the universe.
PL So that God having become His own testimony, only what is His offspring can continue it here?
AJG Quite so.
APCL In verse 5 do you get the application, somewhat personally to us, “Who is he ...?”
AJG Quite so. That is perhaps raising a challenge. What do you think about that?
APCL Yes, I was thinking that, and it is not a question there of being begotten or born, but believing that Jesus is the Son of God. I was thinking of what you were saying, it is God coming into evidence.
AJG I think that is important, and while, on the one hand, it is a question of what is begotten of God, or born of God, on the other hand it does raise the question with us of our responsibility to take up and hold livingly the testimony presented to us. It is only as that is done that real victory over the world is realised.
JW Does the position in Joshua correspond?
I am impressed with your remark as to the testimony of God, the expression of the moral nature of God as seen in His people. I wondered whether Jericho would indicate to us the world system, and the people following the ark, under Joshua’s word, would indicate the principle on which this is done, and whether our faith would link with that point in the testimony, would you say?
AJG I think so. We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. He is the One who has overthrown the power of death. He is the antitype of the ark, in its power over Jordan, so as to introduce a new world that is entirely of God. But then the enemy seeks to meet that by the opposition of the world in its moral features; Jericho is not exactly the world as a system, it seems to me, but rather the characteristics and features of the world, which have to be completely overthrown if God is to secure His pleasure in His saints.
GCS Would it be more the religious world?
AJG Not only the religious world, I think. I think it is all that is in the world. It is the things that are in the world, not so much the world itself, which is Egypt, but the things that are in the world, gaining a place in the circle of the saints where they ought to have no place.
JMcK Does it involve constitution, that whilst the believer never loses this characteristic, the thought of being born of God is carried all the way through, yet there is the development of the constitution by faith?
AJG I am sure that is important; so that we are to be characteristic believers that Jesus is the Son of God, and that means that He has opened up another world beyond death, of which He Himself is the centre. If that is really held in the soul we shall gain the victory over this world.
JMcK So that the feature of being born of God comes very largely into what is testimonial in this setting?
AJG It does.
JMcK We owe everything to that, and nothing else will stand, but we need development in faith.
AJG We do.
WS Earlier you remarked that believing that Jesus is the Christ involves the exclusion of every other man, and the bringing in of the Man that is chosen and anointed of God, but does believing that Jesus is the Son of God mean that the world and all that is in it is overthrown in our souls and we are brought into the recognition of a world for God’s pleasure?
AJG That is how I understand it.
ASM Is Saul of Tarsus, preaching that Jesus is the Son of God, an illustration of one who has overcome?
AJG Yes, he had seen a light above the brightness of the sun, so that all that was beneath the sun, you might say, was eclipsed to him.
AH In John 16 the Lord challenges the disciples’ belief, but He goes on in the end to bring Himself before them as the great overcomer. Is that to encourage us in this matter?
AJG Yes, it is. Overcoming is a prominent thought all through John’s writings. It is very encouraging that the Lord presents Himself as the great Overcomer.
WS You have spoken of the full testimony of God, and what it produces. Would you say that the faith is important? It speaks distinctively of the faith of God’s elect. Would that be particular to this dispensation?
AJG The faith that is referred to here certainly is. Of course, all those in whom God has wrought from the beginning are characterised by faith, but it says here that what gets the victory over the world is our faith, that is, the Christian faith. It is what is distinctive of this dispensation, as you say.
ECM Would it show that Christianity can never be overthrown, it has always been victorious, and the more we go in for it the more victorious it will be?
AJG Yes, “all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world; and this is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith.”
TJG When you say “our faith,” do you mean the body of Christian doctrine or the personal faith in that?
AJG No, the body of Christian doctrine. I understand that is what is in mind here, that the Christian faith, as held livingly in the souls of His people, overcomes the world.
JMcD Are the two things seen in these two verses put together in Ephesians 4, the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God?
AJG Yes, quite so. “The unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God.”
Ques Is the man in John 9 an example of one who has got the victory over the world?
AJG Yes, he is - a very outstanding example. He finds his place, as is often said, in the flock in the next chapter, and what the Lord has for the flock is eternal life.
EJH And could we say that he had substantially in his soul what corresponded with what the Lord communicated to him in the title “the Son of God”?
AJG I would think so, because he says, “I believe, Lord - and he did him homage.”
GRC Might we refer back to verse 4 of chapter 4, as to how that may compare with what we are on. It speaks there of overcoming the false prophets, “because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.”
AJG Well, I think it is all of a piece, because although that is referring to religious teachings, yet the essence of false religious teaching is to make something of the first man. You will always find that; whereas this chapter begins with the statement that the evidence that one is begotten of God is that he believes that Jesus is the Christ, which excludes every other man. Then you go on, in your faith, to apprehend that He is the Son of God, which means that He has opened up another world the other side of death, to which He Himself is giving character.
GRC So that would chapter 4 pave the way for what we have got here? There it is “he that is in the world,” and the way he would hinder saints arriving at the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God.
AJG Yes, but then the Spirit is greater, “greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.”
HDT Is it noticeable that verse l of chapter 5, and verse 5, is “Every one” and “Who is he,” but subsequently you get the plural thought, “we” and “us”? Does that link with what you have just said about the man in John 9, that he is to find his place in the flock?
AJG Well, it does, but the first verse, I suppose, is abstract and characteristic, and the fifth verse raises a challenge, I think, as to whether we are, in fact, victorious over the world, and if we are not in fact victorious over the world it raises the question as to whether faith is active with us.
EJB Does getting the victory over the world involve at all the matter of associations?
AJG It certainly does, because it is by means of unholy associations that Satan would try and keep the saints in the world, that is one of the means he uses.
GAL Would you think that the world here is presented, as you were saying yesterday, as having had its origin in Cain and all that Cain stands for?
AJG It has its origin in the wicked one. You have to go back further than Cain.
GAL Yes, quite so.
AJG And, in fact, it lies in the wicked one, which is a most solemn indictment of the world.
GAL Yes. I ought to have said it found its expression in Cain.
AJG Yes, quite so.
RJW Would keeping his commandments help us to overcome the world?
AJG It certainly would. I think we would get help in considering the ark of the testimony, and the language of Christ, “To do thy good pleasure, my God, is my delight, and thy law is within my heart.” Now that is the Man God has introduced in testimony, and we are all to take character from Him, and in measure as we do we shall overcome the world.
EJB Would you be free to say a word as to associations in detail? I was thinking that we are all clear as to the trade union question, but I was wondering about certain other associations.
AJG I think the scripture is so clear that it ought not to be necessary to say anything much about it. The scripture does not say, Do not belong to trade unions; the scripture says, “Be not diversely yoked with unbelievers; for what participation is there between righteousness and lawlessness? or what fellowship of light with darkness? and what consent of Christ with Beliar, or what part for a believer along with an unbeliever?” Then it says, “Wherefore come out from the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and touch not what is unclean.” “Touch not” - that is uncompromising. Well now, it should be very simple to apply those principles to actual conditions that exist, and things by which we are tested.
TJG There is a good deal of confusion, nevertheless,
in the minds of some, as to what is meant. Would I be permitted to name some of the associations that are exercising some brethren?
AJG I think it is a good thing in a meeting like this to keep to the principles and the truth, and it is in the application of the principles to actual things that we are tested as to our faithfulness.
PHH Do you think the word in 2 Corinthians 7, that we had last night, about cleansing ourselves “from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear,” would help us as to any distinctions which we might not be quite clear about?
AJG I think it would.
PHH It has been said, has it not, that to refuse membership of trade unions is a matter of basic righteousness, but some of these other things may require the exercise of practical holiness, and that I suppose is a more sensitive kind of standard.
AJG Quite so. It is significant to me that in Leviticus we are told that “every offering of thine oblation shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thine oblation - with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt,” Leviticus 2: 13. Well now, we constantly draw near to God; we draw near to Him not only with burnt-offerings, but with the oblation, which involves a certain exercise as to subjective correspondence in us with what we profess to appreciate in the burnt-offering; but all these oblations must have salt, and I believe salt may be regarded as the fear of God. The fear of God is to enter into every matter. If we draw near to God we are to be characteristically marked by the fear of God.
JMcK So that the glory of the matter is that it is our faith that overcomes the world. You were speaking yesterday of a certain climax in Enoch, walking with God. By faith he would arrive at the mind of God, would he not, and be strengthened in his path; so that there is a glory in faith doing these things, overcoming the world.
AJG I am sure of that, and every day that Enoch walked with God he would become more sensitive and more separate.
ABP Is it worthy of note that the man who said he had bought five yoke of oxen said, Please have me for excused?
AJG Yes, excused. That is, it was a compromise.
MLJM Would the Lord’s own words in His prayer in John 17 help, when He says, “I do not demand that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them out of evil.”
AJG It would indeed, and then He goes further and says, “and I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified by truth.” So that we are to keep our eye upon Christ, and the place where He is, in order to learn what the true measure of sanctification for us in God’s mind is.
GRC In Hebrews 12 it says, “Wherefore let us, receiving a kingdom not to be shaken, have grace, by which let us serve God acceptably with reverence and fear.” The word ‘serve’ is priestly service. Would you regard then the “reverence and fear” there as the salt, that you were referring to?
AJG Yes, I would.
EuR The scripture referred to in 2 Corinthians 6 is very uncompromising, is it not?
AJG That is the whole point, and therefore the fear of God operating in us would take it up in its uncompromisingness. I suppose most of us - or all of us, I hope - draw near to God, you might say, with a burnt-offering every day; we draw near to God and make mention of the name of the Lord Jesus. But then with our daily burnt-offering there must be an oblation and a drink offering, which involves a certain subjective correspondence in us to that which we profess to appreciate in the burnt-offering,
and with all our oblations we must see that there is salt.
GRC Would having “a kingdom not to be shaken” encourage us? God can see us through, would you say?
AJG Yes, exactly.
APCL Do you think the way in which John speaks here of “our faith” would preserve us from independent thinking and independent action? It is not the faith exactly, it is the same meaning, but it is “our faith.” Should unity mark us in what we are doing in these matters?
AJG It certainly should. That is an important matter. So that the ministry has in view our arriving at the unity of the faith.
APCL Just so. So that it is not a question exactly of what I may think, or my estimate; it is to be governed by our faith that is being taken on, corresponding with the faith?
AJG Quite so.
SH The difficulty with many of us - if I might be allowed to say it - is that the trade union is a test of fellowship, but there seems to be other associations that are very serious and we do not seem able to help our brethren locally as to these matters.
AJG I think there is a good deal of exercise over other matters besides trade unions. The trade unions were perhaps the most flagrant because of their obviously evil and murderous character, but there are other associations that are certainly causing much concern among the brethren, and many brethren have repudiated them. I have no doubt we shall find that the requirements of the fellowship, the holiness that it involves, will necessitate our being much stricter.
GAL I was wondering whether it helps a little to see what God says to Satan in the 3rd of Genesis, right at the beginning of this matter, “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed,” and the victory and the final crushing of Satan seems to be through the conflict as thus carried on.
AJG Yes, exactly.
AWP Is there not something very choice in this thought of victory, and the expression “Who is he ...?” It brings it home to each one of us individually to have part in it.
AJG Yes. It is a very important matter and an invigorating matter, if we look at it in its right light, that it is given to us in grace to have part personally in this triumph of God over what is of the devil in the world.
PHH “Who is he ...?” Would that be Daniel? And then “our faith,” the collective thing, would that be the three in the furnace?
AJG Well, they would illustrate it.
PHH That is what I mean.
JMcK Following the great faith chapter in Hebrews, the apostle speaks of us “having so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, laying aside every weight.” Would not the cloud of witnesses stand for the unity of faith in the testimony? It is one cloud, is it not? All these men of faith were in one great matter, the testimony.
AJG They were, and therefore you could rightly call it “the unity of faith.” But now we have got “the unity of the faith,” the Christian faith; and the Christian faith, which is governed by the full revelation of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit, is necessarily more sensitive and requires more separation than the faith of Old Testament saints.
GAL That is, the nearer we are to God in holy privilege, the more we ought to be holy in ourselves to correspond with that?
AJG Exactly.
CWO'LM Does not Jude’s epistle take up this very matter? It refers to “the faith once delivered to the saints,” and to all the unholy associations that surround it?
AJG Yes, it does.
ABP Would being “born of water and of Spirit” (I have in mind particularly the water now), if it is an experience of soul, help us in relation to these unclean matters we are speaking of? We have been “born anew” and being “born of water and of Spirit.” I wondered if there is not an intimate link between that and baptism, and the general principle of the use of the water freely, for cleansing, that we may be free from every pollution.
AJG I think that is right. So that being born of water brings in the moral element, does it not?
WC Is Naaman an illustration of that? He had to wash seven times in Jordan, not in any other water. I was thinking it would correspond with the various issues in 2 Corinthians 6, and the different things that have to be faced. Did he not face the whole thing and completely dissociate himself from all that he had once been in?
AJG Yes. So that his flesh came again as the flesh of a little child.
WC He was an overcomer, was he not? He got the victory over the world.
AJG Quite so.
WC Would not the world with him be the other waters, but he bowed to the value of the waters of Jordan?
AJG Yes, he must accept Jordan, and that is the place where Elijah had gone through before he was taken up into heaven.
WC Yes, and would the way the Lord has gone be an appeal to us in relation to these associations? And make a way for us out of the whole thing into what is of God? Would that not help us, in facing these things and taking the plunge?
AJG Quite.
GRC Does verse 6 help us in that way, “This is he that came by water and blood”?
AJG Yes, I was thinking we should pass on to that now. “This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.” And then “it is the Spirit that bears witness.”
CAW Why is it that in the gospel the blood comes before the water, and here the water before the blood?
AJG The blood coming before the water, I suppose, is foundational, as establishing, through the death of Christ, the basis of our blessing, and as bringing out the testimony to divine love, but this is an epistle addressed to those who are already believers and therefore the water is brought first. It is the moral aspect of the death of Christ, as setting us apart from all that is unclean by the unreserved acceptance of death. It is not by water only, it is not reforming the first man, it is by water and blood. It is a cleansing that is made effective through death.
ECM Does it involve the complete removal of the first order of man?
AJG Exactly.
ECM And the blood has met the claims of God, but here the water aspect comes first?
AJG Yes, the water aspect coming first shows that it is the cleansing that is in mind. But then it is not by water only, but by water and blood. Blood is the witness that death has come in. As you say, it is the complete ending of the man who was unclean, and that has to be accepted by us unreservedly in the power of the Spirit.
GRC Did not Mr. Taylor say many years ago that in the flood God cleansed the earth by water only? It is very affecting that in the death of Christ there is complete cleansing.
AJG Quite so.
GRC And yet it is by water and blood, which should touch our hearts, because we are preserved, are we not, and carried over?
AJG Exactly. The man is removed and yet the persons are retained and set up in life in God’s Son.
GWB What is the bearing of the way it is put “This is he that came ... .”?
AJG That it was deliberately in mind in His coming in. He came on this principle, to set aside one order of manhood and life in that man, and to introduce life in Himself beyond death, and the Spirit is the witness to us that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son.
GRC I wondered if this would help us as to associations, because if God were to deal with them in themselves He would have to sweep the scene right away, and because, on account of the blood, we are retained for His pleasure, why should we go on with those things which morally in the death of Christ were swept away?
AJG Exactly. The tares are being gathered in bundles to be burned; that is the end of the bundles, to be burned. It is a good thing to bear that in mind.
Ques Is there a responsibility on the local brethren to deal with these matters of associations, in the light of what has been said about “our faith”? Should it be brought home to the individual locally?
AJG Yes, it certainly should. It leaves scope for individual pastoral care, to start with, but it must be followed up. If it is not paid heed to, it should be followed up by the local company.
PHH The fact that it is in 2 Corinthians, a local epistle, would confirm that, would it not?
AJG It would, indeed.
WJT Should it be preceded by what we get in verse 16 of our chapter, “If any one see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life, for those that do not sin unto death.”
AJG Quite so. That is one thing that we are to do; we are to use the nearness to God that we have on behalf of those whom we may see sinning, but then there are other things come into it too. If a man be taken in a fault, those who are spiritual are at once called into play; they should exercise their influence in seeking to restore him.
APT Does this statement “This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ,” refer to the incarnation?
AJG Yes. What is in your mind?
APT It says “He that came ... .” I wondered if it not only refers to His death but also to His incarnation?
AJG I think the whole thing hangs together; He came on that principle; He comes into testimony. He came to die. That is what the Lord came for. He did not come to improve the world, or to improve man in the flesh; He came to end man in the flesh and open up another world beyond death.
ABP And does not this give us an incentive to have an attitude of mind or of purpose of heart?
AJG It does, indeed.
CH Did not Mr. Darby call attention to the different prepositions used, “he that came by water” is the character in which He came, but “not by water only, but by water and blood” is the power displayed by Him according to that character.
AJG I am not sure that I quite follow that. Would you mind enlarging on it?
CH Well, I think he makes a point of the fact that the Lord came into that condition. That is what our brother, I think, now refers to. At the incarnation He came into that position and condition, but in that position power and efficacy was in Him, so that He met the situation fully in those He met, and do you think the power and efficacy of that now applies to the saints in the Spirit, but it was in the Lord when He was here.
AJG Quite so. So that it is the Spirit that makes these things good to us. While the water and the blood are mentioned first, it says “it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth. For they that bear witness are three - the Spirit” - putting the Spirit first - “and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one.”
CH Putting the thing simply, is not the water for sanctification and the blood for justification?
AJG That is true, but I think there is more in the blood in this passage, because it seems to me where it says “not by water only, but by water and blood,” it is emphasizing that the sanctification or cleansing that was in mind is a sanctification or cleansing that is effected by means of death, but love witnessing to that. And that is what we really need to lay hold of, that it is the complete ending of the man, the Spirit being the power for us to take that up.
GAL So that while it was a witness to the wonderful love of God, there was what was judicial about it?
AJG There was, indeed.
HDT Would it be appropriate to ask whether there is any connection with the waters of purification - the red heifer in Numbers 19, and the water here?
AJG I think there would be. There is a link morally with that, as far as I understand the truth. That was a permanent provision, that they had to carry with them in the wilderness, was it not?
HDT Yes, it was a question not merely of the meeting of guilt, it was the matter of the maintenance of communion.
AJG Quite so.
HDT And does not the water have that particularly in view?
AJG Yes, I think so. So that the Spirit is the prominent matter, “the Spirit is the truth.”
PHH How far does that go? What is your thought about that? “The Spirit is the truth.”
AJG I think it goes very far indeed; that is my impression. We are well acquainted, of course, with the fact that the Lord says that He Himself is the truth, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.” That is, the truth is before us in Christ objectively, but then the answer to that is that the Spirit in the believer is the truth subjectively, and the more we can arrive at the reality of practical subjection to the Spirit the more we shall be practically in the truth. Anything that is really of the Spirit in us will certainly be the truth. I do not know whether that helps?
PHH Yes, thank you. Are we to understand that the mention of coming by water and blood, first of all, before the Spirit is mentioned, means that the truth can only be operative with us by the Spirit as we accept death in the practical teaching and value of it?
AJG I think so. It is only on the basis of death that the Spirit has come, and that is an important matter, because it is a question of the witness that we have in ourselves. We have the Spirit as witness in ourselves, but then the Spirit has come consequent upon Christ having died and gone to the right hand of God. The Spirit is always faithful in our hearts to Christ as He is and to His death.
ECM Would it be right to say that the water and the blood and the Spirit are the means by which we come consciously into the enjoyment of eternal life?
AJG Yes, it would, the Spirit itself being the power for the enjoyment of eternal life and the witness that we have it.
ABP In connection with the statement “the Spirit is the truth” would it be right to say that the Spirit finds expression through persons, so that this is not entirely an abstract statement, but a matter that is worked out through persons?
AJG I think so. So that if a brother stands up and he is speaking in the Spirit, what he says will certainly be the truth.
CWC Would that clause show the seriousness of refusing what the Spirit is giving at any particular time in ministry?
AJG It certainly would.
GWB What is the distinction between the water here and in Ephesians 5, “the washing of water by the word”?
AJG I think there is a strong link there, because I understand the word for ‘washing’ there is not the same word as for feet-washing, but it is the full thought; it is the thought of bathing. It seems to me therefore that that refers to the way that Christ in His love for the assembly would bring home to our hearts the full import of His death, as setting us apart from all that once attached to us, in order that we might take account of ourselves as “of his flesh, and of his bones.”
JSE So that the Spirit, as being first in the three that bear witness, is enforcing upon the family this great matter as to the necessity of moral suitability in order to enjoy to the full what is connected with the blood, because the blood involves the termination of one condition, does it not, and the opening up of another?
AJG Yes, and the Spirit and the water and the blood agree in this witness, “that God has given us eternal life; and this life is in his Son.” Hence the whole point with us now, I think, is how far we are really sowing to the Spirit and reaping life eternal as a practical thing.
JSE So that the matter of associations, that has been raised, is determined by us severally as we yield to the Spirit and lay hold of the necessity of moral suitability for entry into what is the other side, which is connected with eternal life, is it not?
AJG Quite so.
RJW Does James, chapter 4, bear on what we are speaking about? It says in verse 4, “Whoever therefore is minded to be the friend of the world is constituted enemy of God.” Then he goes on to speak about the Spirit, “Does the Spirit which has taken his abode in us desire enviously?” And then the last two verses in the epistle show how serious it is to be caught in these things.
AJG That is so, and one is touched much of recent years by that verse in James, “the Spirit which has taken his abode in us,” as though He would take possession in order that we might be held for God, and it says “He gives more grace.” He is prepared to help in all the practical exercises that God dwelling in us entails for us.
JW Would the reference to His Son in this section link us with an order of things and affections in life?
AJG Yes, I think so. I think it is most stimulating that the world that the Son of God has opened up is a world of love, the Father’s love for the Son. The Father has many families, and they are all headed up in One who is the Object of love.
GAL In the beginning of the meeting our brother. Mr. L., referred to eternal life here as being viewed in the Son. Obviously something was in mind, and I wondered if we could have the benefit of that?
PL Well, the terminal of the epistle is eternal life in this Person, is it not?
AJG It is. I think you said that we do not get sonship as applying to the saints in John’s writings, except just the allusion in Revelation 21. On the other hand, it is just a question - and I do not think I am saying anything different from what Mr. Taylor once said - whether eternal life may not include sonship, only that the great thought of sonship is what is for the pleasure of God, whereas eternal life is what we enjoy. I think we must come to it, at least that is one’s impression, that so far as the inheritance we come into is concerned, what is enjoyed in the way of eternal life includes the present enjoyment of sonship.
GRC So that while eternal life is a wide thought, and the saved families will come into it, have we not life of the highest order in that realm?
AJG Yes. Life in His Son.
HDT Is it remarkable that in the well-known passage in John 17, the Lord says, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son.” It certainly goes on later to say “that they should know thee, the only true God” - speaking to the Father - “and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent,” but the prelude is “glorify thy Son.” Would you say something about that?
AJG It is very remarkable that the Lord speaks in the third person there, but what have you to say?
HDT I was only just thinking that whilst eternal life is to be enjoyed now, we cannot entirely exclude the thought of relationship from it.
AJG Quite so.
JMcD Is there a certain link between eternal life and sonship in verse 20 of this chapter?
AJG That is, it is His Son Jesus Christ, who is the eternal life. Is that what is in your mind?
JMcD Yes. The whole verse is connected with the Son of God, and being “in his Son Jesus Christ” is linked up with the thought of eternal life.
AJG I think we want to keep the truth in its proper setting, as far as possible. One does not want to go too far in it, but I think eternal life, as being the present inheritance that the saints are brought into to enjoy, must include the enjoyment on our part of sonship, but the prime thought of sonship, of course, is that it is for the pleasure of God.
PHH Is what is being said to give us an understanding that, according to Scripture, eternal life has a kind of dual aspect. For Israel, for instance, it will have an earthly aspect, then shall the nations go away into life eternal, but in regard of the assembly it has a higher aspect which touches on this great matter of sonship?
AJG I think that is right. Eternal life, of course, is, as you say, a very wide thought embracing Israel and the saved nations on the earth in the day to come, but all that the assembly enters into must have a uniquely heavenly character attaching to it.
WC Would it be right to say that eternal life primarily is a matter of God and men?
AJG Yes, I think so.
WC It seems the way that God preserves the race, does it not? He has brought to pass, in His Son, what has met the whole moral question and opened up a sphere of life beyond death.
AJG I suppose it really has a certain testimonial bearing; that is to say, it is what is seen to be enjoyed in the presence of death, or in the scene where death has been.
WC So that I suppose eternal life especially links with the world to come, and sonship with the eternal scene, but would there not be an overlapping in our case?
AJG I think so. I think this epistle rather shows that there is a certain overlapping, because eternal life seems to be put on such a high level here. It is connected with the thought of fellowship with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
JTS Is there any connection with what we have in the 2nd chapter, verse 24, “if what ye have heard from the beginning abides in you, ye also shall abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise which he has promised us, life eternal.”
AJG Yes, I think there is. But we ought before we close to touch on verse 20 because it is such an important one. It says “we know,” as though the writer of the epistle is summing things up now. “We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” It is a remarkable appellation, that we should know “him that is true.” It is not here to know “the true God,” which would be God in contrast to false gods, but know God in that character, “him that is true.” That is, as I understand it, One who has everything in its right moral relation; He has man in his proper relationship with Him as God, in the place of subjection, and secures it eternally, and yet it is morally right, because of what He is in His nature, that man should be in the greatest possible nearness. So “him that is true” really in the working out of it, involves, it seems to me, the light in which we know God, the whole economy. All is the result, it seems to me, of the fact that He is true and loves to have things in their true relation.
WSS Does knowing “Him that is true” give us a true standard for every moral matter; it goes on to say, “keep yourselves from idols.”
AJG Yes. Quite so.
JH In John 7 the Lord says, “he that sent me is true.” Earlier than that He says, “he that seeks the glory of him that has sent him, he is true,” emphasising the Father and the Son as being true, as you are saying.
AJG Yes, quite so. It seems to me, not that one can say much about it, to be worth pondering that God should be presented to us as the One that is true. He will have everything true in the relations that are morally proper to it - Himself supreme, the creature subject, and yet because He is love and desires to express His love towards His creature, the man must be with Him in conditions suitable to that love.
ABP And is the truth the means by which we are brought into that?
AJG I think so, so that it all centres in His Son. The Son of God has come, and then it says, “we are in him that is true,” that is, in God, “in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” It is as though the whole truth, in both sides of it so to speak, is centred in Christ.
ANG Is it not affecting that at the outset of the epistle we have the report as to the eternal life, which was with the Father, and then at the end it is “this life is in his Son”? Is that a suggestion that these things will be secured and enjoyed in family relationships?
AJG Yes, quite so, and yet the family relationships really eventuate in this that man is seen in right relations with God.
GRC Would you say another word as to your remark that both sides are seen in Christ, “He is the true God and eternal life.” Will both sides be seen in Him eternally?
AJG Yes, I think so. We shall never see God save in Christ, and manhood according to the heart of God is before Him always in Christ, and the saints in Him.
GRC Would the full place Christ has in that way help us in the worship of God?
AJG I think it would. We never dispense with the Mediator.
GRC So that while in the eternal state it says “the Son also himself shall be placed in subjection,” it does not alter this truth, does it, that He is still the true God and will be worshipped as such?
AJG Quite so. It does not alter that at all.
HDT But it shows that sonship continues, does it not?
AJG Oh! it does. “Then shall the Son also himself be placed in subjection,” it says. That is eternally.
SJH Mr. Darby remarked as to “the true God and eternal life,” and used the expression ‘identity of extent.’ I wondered if that verse would suggest to us that while we distinguish between the Persons in the Deity we should not separate Them in our minds?
AJG I believe that is always important in speaking of God, that while we are permitted to distinguish between the Father and the Son and the Spirit, yet we have to remember that God is One, and always carry that in our thoughts, and not be unduly analytical.
EJH Does every feature of idolatry hinder our enjoyment of eternal life?
AJG It certainly would. This is a very fine climax to arrive at, that “we are in him that is true.” We are in God, in His Son Jesus Christ. That does not mean, of course, that we have part in Deity, but it does mean that we are held in the most intimate nearness in the knowledge of the blessed God in His nature of love.
WC So that, in result, what we have here shows that God has never deviated from any of His thoughts.
AJG No.
WC The situation created by sin has brought out the greatness of God in the Three Persons, and all that has been effected and secured in the saints, an eternal scene where God will dwell.
AJG It has indeed, and it establishes in that way the supremacy of God. That is to be made good now in the hearts of the saints, as it will be made good throughout the universe.
LF Mr. Raven very simply summed it up for us in his saying that eternal life for us is living in the love of God.
AJG Quite so.
GCS Is it of interest that in the end of Matthew where the lie comes in and is circulated, that the Lord says “make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”? Is the full force of God in the economy to meet and answer and overcome the lie?
AJG That is very striking.
JAP In this sense is there what is eternal attached to the thought of eternal life?
AJG Yes, I think so. Although, of course, the term “eternal life” will cease to have any force in eternity, I think the character of eternal life as known now is that it is what is eternal.