THE SUBSTANTIALITY OF CHRISTIANITY (4)
THE SUBSTANTIALITY OF CHRISTIANITY (4)
AJG The remark was made this morning that this chapter was full of the thought of God, and we have in it the thought of our abiding in God, and God in us, a certain fixedness being contemplated which is very blessed. We have also, in the beginning of the chapter, the efforts of the enemy through false teaching, to set aside the truth, and then the means we have, in the Spirit of God, and also in subjection to the apostolic teaching, to discern and reject everything that is false. The first paragraph ends with “we,” that is an apostolic “we,” “We are of God; he that knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us.” That is a second test, we might say, of the teachings that are abroad, as to whether or not they conform to the apostolic teaching. The first power for proving teaching and what the teaching confesses is in the Spirit of God, and it concerns the confession of “Jesus Christ come in flesh”; that really is the essence, you might say, of the truth, and the point at which all that is false in the world is exposed. “Jesus Christ come in flesh” involves, I apprehend, the truth as to the deity of Christ, for no one, who is not God, could be spoken of as “coming in flesh.” It also involves the truth of His manhood, that He who is God became Man and is a Man, and it also involves, as a corollary, that the first man, man in flesh, is set aside, for there was no object in the Son of God coming into the world if God could have made anything of the first man. That is important, because, if present-day religious teaching is considered, or if the views of leaders of thought either in the political world or the social world are considered, you will find that no one recognises or acknowledges the complete ruin of man; all is based on the assumption that there is some good in man which can be worked upon, but the truth cuts at the root of that, and that is involved in this confession of “Jesus Christ come in flesh.”
AH In verse 1 it speaks of “false prophets” but in verse 2, it says “every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of God,” and in verse 3, “every spirit which does not confess Jesus Christ come in flesh is not of God.” Why is it spirit and not persons?
AJG Because persons are the mouthpiece of spirits - either the Spirit of God, or some other spirit that is not of God. Teaching is either true and of the Spirit of God, or else it is opposed to the truth and another spirit lies behind it, hence the need for detection of what is of God and what is not of God.
HW So would you say this confession is not like that in Romans 10 - where we have confessing with the mouth; but it is the whole attitude and bearing of the person?
AJG I think when it comes to the Spirit and the doctrine connected with the Spirit, it really is what is the essence of the thing. It may be clothed with a great deal that is deceptive, such as the quotation of Scripture and all that kind of thing, as we usually find false teachings are, but the point is to arrive at the real essence of it and what it thinks in regard of Christ, and what it thinks in regard of man.
LF This scripture disposes of anything in the way of compromise in regard to the truth, does it not? It is of God or it is not of God; it would allow no admixture at all in regard to this matter?
AJG No exactly.
EJH Would you say that it is a comfort and a stay to us all that as we rely upon the Spirit there is no need for anyone whatever to be deceived by anything that is in the world?
AJG No, quite so. That reminds us of what we had yesterday in connection with the unction, but it is striking that it says the non-confession of “Jesus Christ come in flesh” is “that power of the antichrist.” That shows the real character of it, that all that is antichristian is built up on the non-confession of “Jesus Christ come in flesh.”
EJH Yet the believer has far greater power than all the power that is arraigned against him?
AJG Quite so.
ECM Would the discernment you speak of be the result of having the senses exercised for distinguishing both good and evil?
AJG Yes, that is necessary in order to get the gain of the Spirit of God, and I think this simple test, “Jesus Christ come in flesh” (if the import of it is understood) is extremely important. It involves the truth as to Christ in a very full way, the absolute truth as to His deity and His true manhood, and then what is its import, that every other man is superseded.
MPS Is there any difference between not confessing “Jesus Christ come in flesh” and denying the Son in the second chapter? I was thinking that non-confession might refer to matters which are not clear on the face of them. Denying the Son would be clear perhaps to all, but are we certain as to this confession?
AJG I think that helps, that denying the Son is something positive and would immediately be apparent to a true believer, but this is a question of discernment, as you say, because much that is false is clothed with that which is outwardly attractive, in the sense that the Scriptures are brought in and that kind of thing; hence the importance of really discerning what the essence of the teaching is.
PHH The thought of deception is found in the second epistle, where it says, “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, they who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in flesh - this is the deceiver and the antichrist.” Do you think those three things put together, the denying and then the power and then the deceiver, or deception, really expose the whole of modern religion in that sense?
AJG I think so. One has often been impressed with the circumstances surrounding the taking of Christ by those with Judas; they were in league with, and sent by, the chief priests and scribes. It says for instance in Mark 14, “the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might seize him by subtlety and kill him.” Those are the religious leaders, and they are moving with subtlety with a view to getting rid of Christ, and that is exactly the character of modern religious teaching. While it takes on the name of Christ, it is attaching Christ and the Christian teaching to the first man, with a view eventually to getting rid of the need of Christ altogether, so that it is antichristian in its character and effect.
JH Will you please enlarge a little more on the thought of “Jesus Christ come in flesh” as being the evidence of the Spirit’s operation in a person, as over against the popular religion of today, which confesses that Jesus lived a man here, as just an example to be followed in the power of the flesh?
AJG I would connect the expression “Jesus Christ come in flesh” with what we have in chapter 1 of John’s gospel, “the Word became flesh.” That is to say it is the action of a divine Person; it is God Himself entering into manhood, and the popular religion of today based on following the example of Jesus as a perfect Man here, in the power of the flesh, does not confess that, does it?
JH No, quite, I was thinking of the movements of God into manhood, “Jesus Christ come in flesh” being with the view of the removal of that man completely.
AJG Quite so. There was no need for God to introduce another man in the Person of His Son, if anything could be produced for the pleasure of God by the first man. The coming in of the Son of God “Jesus Christ come in flesh” - was evidence that the time had come in God’s ways, and it was necessary too, and in fact essential, for the first man to be displaced and removed.
ABP Should we consider also the mystery in the name of Jesus and its intimate link with Emmanuel in Matthew?
AJG I am sure that is important, the very name itself involving His deity.
ABP Jah the Saviour.
AJG Yes.
PHH Is this matter of the removal of the first order of man enlarged on somewhat by the Lord Himself in John 6, where He mentions several times His own flesh and His coming down?
AJG Yes, I think so. He is presenting Himself in the grace of His coming down from heaven as food for the believer. But then when it comes to appropriating the food we find that He changes the figure from bread to eating His flesh and drinking His blood, that is appropriating His death.
PHH And do we understand that in that death, alluded to in the flesh and the blood, we are to see the termination of the first order of man and, therefore, to open ourselves to the consideration of the order of Man that is in Christ?
AJG Yes, exactly. He took up flesh and blood condition in order, vicariously, to terminate it before God in His death and then to open up in Himself a new order of manhood beyond death.
HDT Does Paul approach that in 1 Corinthians 15 in the two titles he gives the Lord, “the second man, out of heaven” and “the last Adam”?
AJG I think so. I suppose “the second man,
out of heaven” involves that the first man has been displaced in favour of the second, and “the last Adam” involves that finality has been reached.
HDT And He replaces the man that has been displaced by what takes character from Himself.
AJG Exactly.
WWS Does it in any way bear on the matter to say that when Paul met the evil spirit in Philippi he met it in the power of the name of Jesus Christ? I was thinking that there you had in principle the spirit of antichrist working, but do you think it was met by the confession of the name of Jesus Christ?
AJG Yes, that is good.
RJW In John 8, when it was a question of the Lord’s Person, and they asked who He was, He said, “Altogether that which I also say to you,” and just prior to that the Lord says, “Unless ye shall believe that I am (he), ye shall die in your sins.”
AJG That is a remarkable chapter, because in it we have the Lord speaking of Himself as “a man who has spoken the truth to you, which I have heard from God,” and then He says, “Before Abraham was, I am,” So that there is a remarkable combination in that chapter in the Lord’s own words of the truth of His Person.
AHG Why does the apostle link up here this non-confession of Jesus Christ come in flesh with the power of the antichrist?
AJG Because that is just where the power of antichrist lies. The refusal to accept the necessity for the setting aside of man after the flesh, the first order of man, lies at the very base of all antichristian teaching.
AHG Would antichrist in that way be the displacement of Christ?
AJG Yes, quite so.
EJH In John 6 the Lord says, “It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing - the words which I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” I was thinking of the setting aside of the first man in totality - how few are prepared to believe it.
AJG Exactly, I think it helps to see that the title “the Christ” is very exclusive. There are many antichrists, but there is only one Christ. So that the very title “the Christ” is exclusive of every other man; He is the anointed of God.
ABP Do you connect the removal of the first man with the second cry of Jesus on the cross, and in that sense does it make it a very feeling and precious matter to us?
AJG Exactly, I have no doubt, in one sense, that God felt it that man after the flesh had to be removed, do you not think? It says in regard to the condition of things just before the flood that “it grieved him in his heart.” We perhaps do not enter into the feelings of God in regard of these matters, but then the grief that He would feel must be more than counter-balanced by the joy that is His now in having a Man of Christ’s own order in His presence, and myriads partaking in His life and order by the Spirit.
ECL Do you think John enters into that when he addresses the saints as “Beloved” in this chapter? It is not ‘brethren’ or ‘children’ but “Beloved,” Would it help us to see the likeness to Christ in them?
AJG It shows the feelings that are in the heart of the apostle in writing. We get this expression “Beloved” at least three times in the chapter.
Ques Do we see the spirit of antichrist in type in Absalom as he stole the hearts of the people?
AJG Yes, we do, and, of course, as we read in Revelation; antichrist has the appearance of a lamb but when he speaks he speaks as a dragon. We, therefore, have to be careful of deceptive appearances.
HDT Had you in mind, when you spoke about the chief priests and the scribes and the elders taking counsel by subtlety to take Jesus, that it was something deliberate? It is said of Absalom that the conspiracy grew stronger.
AJG Oh! it is deliberate; there is no doubt about that. So that evil spirits, that is, what is opposed to God, will lend themselves to it, to bring in systematised error. It has the appearance of what is Christian attached to it and the Scriptures brought forward out of their setting in order to support it, but it is all a subtle, deliberate intention to get rid of Christ.
PL So that the gates of hades, in Matthew 16, are seen operating after the glory of the Person of Christ is confessed, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
AJG Quite so. It is a most comforting thing that there is that here which is impregnable, which the gates of hades cannot prevail against, and it is great grace that we should have part in it.
MPS How are we to understand the expression, “every spirit,” the first time it occurs, in verse 2?
AJG It is a question of what lies behind everything that is presented to us as teaching. If it is true, the Spirit of God lies behind it; if it is not true, another spirit lies behind it.
MPS Would it be seen in Paul saying that he served God in his spirit in the glad tidings of His Son?
AJG That would be Paul’s own spirit, of course, and the feeling that accompanied his service, but in the actual ministry of Paul, the Spirit of God was behind it.
ABP When James and John suggested fire coming down from heaven, the Lord said, “Ye know not of what spirit ye are.” Would that be like the gates of hades operating subtly to misrepresent the dispensation that Jesus had just committed Himself to?
AJG Just so. Reference has been made to the spirit in the young woman that followed Paul and Silas at Philippi. There was a semblance of truth in what she said, “These men are bondmen of the Most High God, who announce to you the way of salvation,” Acts 16: 17.
GAL Does it not touch the question of the revelation of God, “Jesus Christ come in flesh, “He came to reveal God. If that is denied, the revelation is denied, is it not?
AJG Quite so.
ACSP Was the evidence of one of these spirits at work in Peter, in Matthew 16, when the Lord had to say to him, “Get away behind me, Satan?
AJG Well, working through means of sentiment and natural feeling; but then that is not quite what we have in this chapter; this is definite teaching, doctrines.
ACSP I was really wanting some help as to how this matter of wrong teaching may come in amongst us, because it is evident that the enemy is trying to get in in different parts.
AJG Well, that is why everything has to be tested.
WSS I suppose this would link with Ephesians 4, “that we be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of that teaching which is in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematised error.” Would this be the same thing in principle?
AJG It would.
AJD Would this be seen in the addresses to the assemblies in Revelation 2 and 3, in the expression “the synagogue of Satan”? Would that have this kind of thing in mind especially in the last days?
AJG Quite so. You mean that there is what has religious character that is definitely of Satan, opposed to the truth, I suppose that was largely Jewish tendencies, but the Lord exposes them as being of Satan.
JSE Do these remarks suggest to us that the power for trying the spirits only lies within the family circle?
AJG Well, that is true because it only lies in those who have the Spirit of God, who are born of God. But what have you in mind in saying that?
JSE I thought the writer was crediting the saints with ability on this line, and we are to put the ability into execution.
AJG Quite so. That is important. It is a question of overcoming, and maintaining the overcoming, and therefore maintaining the truth in sound teaching and in walk that is consistent with it.
JSE Is it not a fact that whilst much is made historically of the nativity, even amongst professing believers, this that you have referred to, “Jesus Christ come in flesh” is unknown, and people are led astray by the mere historical thoughts of the nativity?
AJG That is so, and it is sorrowful to see many believers affected by unsound teaching. Although at bottom they would not accredit what was basically unsound, they are, for the time being, often deluded by it.
GAL Is there not a very specious form of attack in the way of household visitations with literature, which sisters may have to meet on the doorstep? When these people are tested by the deity of Christ the whole thing is exposed, but there is a very subtle movement afoot, is there not, in the world on these lines?
AJG Quite so. That is the case, that often the sisters are confronted with this kind of thing in house-to-house visitation. We find that, of course, in the second epistle.
JAP Is not the final test the apostolic teaching, “He that knows God hears us”?
AJG Yes, it is; hence the great importance of following up the apostolic teaching. The early believers were marked by that; they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles.
AWGT What is the distinction between what we are speaking of and what Paul speaks of as profane, vain babblings which we are to shun?
AJG Well, they might not be exactly systematic teaching. Profane, vain babblings seems to refer a good deal to what may be just loose talking and a multitude of words with nothing in it. But this is systematic cleverness, instigated by the devil.
WSS In Ephesians 4 (if I may refer to it again, for it seems to link with this) we have that which comes from Christ as Head through the gifts by the Spirit, first, and then that ye be not as babes, and here we have the teaching also, as if we must be in the sphere of divine teaching from Christ by the Spirit if we are to be preserved from these insidious attacks on the truth.
AJG Quite so, and it is significant here that the apostle exposes all this as being of the world. “They are of the world; for this reason they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.” The world has many different departments, and phases, you might say, but the basic feature of the world is that it is man’s world, for the glory of man.
WSS And this would be particularly, to use your word, the religious department!
AJG Yes, and it is all of this principle, that it is for the exaltation of man.
PL Do you not think there is a call for a systematic and sequential teaching, that the mind may be bulwarked against these inroads of darkness?
AJG I think there is.
PL In temple enquiry, and the authority of the gifts too? It is an independent and insubject mind, is it not, that lays itself open to these attacks?
AJG Quite so, I think that is important. An element of insubjection with us, or any allowance of anything that is not right, exposes us to the enemy’s attack, so I suppose that is why it is that the Lord in speaking to Peter called him Satan, and the trouble was that his mind was not on the things of God but on the things of man.
WSS It has impressed me very much for years that unless we are in the current of the Spirit’s teaching at any given time we are bound to come under the influence of wrong teaching. Would you say that?
AJG Yes, I think that is right.
WC Would that be confirmed by the fact that it says, “Hereby ye know the Spirit of God”? That is the Spirit objectively, is it not? Then it immediately says. “every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of God.” Does that mean that the Spirit is only here in connection with the identification with that order of man in the saints? He was here in relation to Christ, was He not, for the Lord says, “ye know him” in John 14? Now the word says, “ye know the Spirit of God.”
AJG Well, the Spirit of God is supporting the truth as to Christ, His deity and His true manhood, and what the import of His having come into manhood is.
ALRT Are there two basic tests for us - the Person of Christ and the apostolic teaching? Is that what we see in this third section?
AJG Yes, I think so.
JPH In connection with what has just been said, would it be right to extend verse 6, “he that knows God hears us,” to our day? Is there what is of the character of apostolic teaching, I mean authority in the ministry in our day, by which we are tested, and in heeding it we heed God?
AJG That is right in principle.
JPH I only meant in principle.
AJG The apostolic teaching remains as the basis of sound Christian knowledge, but, as you say, there is what is authoritative in the Spirit in the teaching that is given by gifts ministering in the Spirit.
PL And do you not think that these three-day meetings universally are divinely intended to furnish a sequential thesis of the truth, so that the saints become more established in it?
AJG I think that is so. If we are helped to maintain the attitude of enquiry in the temple we shall find that the truth does come out with some measure of authority.
ABP And is there not a need for the continuance of the special character of meetings such as is being held in this city now?
AJG I think there is, for that very reason, that it gets brethren together from over a wide area and it affords opportunity for the Spirit to open up the truth or confirm what is needed at the moment among the brethren.
ABP Some of us were a little concerned because we heard a report that this kind of meeting may be discontinued.
AJG I do not think there was any thought of discontinuing them. There was a thought as to whether they should or should not be held every year; that was as far as it went.
ANG In connection with the spirits, would Peter’s personal experience help? When the links are clear, would an appeal to the Lord personally be effective? He said, “If it be thou, command me to come to thee upon the waters.”
AJG Oh! That is so, undoubtedly.
PHH Do you see any significance in the use of the word ‘temple’ in the opening chapters of Samuel? We have been speaking about the temple. It was clearly the tabernacle, but it is called the temple. I wondered if the Spirit of God might be pointing to the need for enquiry in temple light in a day of poor things.
AJG Would you indicate the scripture you have in mind.
PHH The first chapter. It says, for instance, in verse 9, “Eli the priest sat upon the seat by the doorpost of the temple of Jehovah.” There are other references in the early chapters, and then there is the suggestion, in the beginning of chapter 3, that “the word of Jehovah was rare in those days; a vision was not frequent.” Would that in any way be a help to us, in getting to know the truth by enquiry in a poor day?
AJG I think it would. I think it is very striking that it comes in in that way, and that Samuel, who was designed to be the prophet to communicate the mind of God, is from his earliest days connected with the temple. It is called that, as though he is to learn from his earliest days the possibilities that lie in the temple for acquiring the knowledge of the mind of God.
APCL Would that be in a certain sense implied in verse 4, “Ye are of God, children, and have overcome them, because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.” Would that in a certain sense imply the temple?
AJG You are linking it with the passage in Corinthians, “ye are temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you”?
APCL Yes.
AJG I think so.
APCL I was thinking of the seven sons of Sceva the Jew; they tried to overcome by knowing something that Paul preached, but they themselves were overcome and escaped naked. Do you think there is a need for us to be really livingly in the thing if we are to overcome these spirits?
AJG I am sure of that.
PHH And is it touching that John says, “Ye are of God,” in verse 4, and then later says, in verse 6, “We are of God.” Although one was the family setting and the other was the more apostolic setting, yet there is ability with the children to discern the spirits and to get the full advantage of the Holy Spirit, even in the midst of such antichristian workings?
AJG So that there is an affinity between the children of God and the truth of God, which the apostles bring out.
PHH Quite so.
PL And which such an occasion as this affords expression for?
AJG Quite so.
PHH It does seem extraordinary, does it not, that we should take this up, “Ye are of God,” in verse 4, as applying to ourselves, and yet not hear what comes into that 6th verse, “Ye are of God,” involves the children and the family, “We are of God” implies the hearing; that is, I suppose, as has been said, the attention to the ministry, and hearing means taking it on in obedience, does it not?
AJG It does, but, of course, the apostle here, and all through his epistle, is looking at things according to their true nature; so he does not contemplate that any true believers do not hear the apostles. Alas! there may be those who do not pay attention to the apostolic teaching, but he says in verse 6, “he that knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us.” He does not contemplate, I suppose, that a true believer would not pay attention to apostolic teaching.
JTS Are the apostle’s positive remarks as to being begotten of God to be taken account of? I was thinking of what we have had already, “every one who practises righteousness is begotten of him,” and then again, “every one that loves has been begotten of God,” and then later we shall have, “every one that believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God.” Is that what you are leading on to now? We have had the matter of righteousness, and of love, and now believing that Jesus is the Christ.
AJG Quite so. We might come on to the section from verse 7 now. “Let us love one another; because love is of God, and every one that loves has been begotten of God, and knows God.” It is as though the first paragraph that we have been occupied with is just to preserve the integrity of the truth in the Christian circle. But then, that being preserved, and the saints being preserved from what is false, we have got to see that we go on with what is positive, what is really of God.
AHG Could you enlarge a little on this expression “and knows God.”
AJG Do you not think that necessitates continuance, going on with God. We only know Him if we go on with Him, and go on with Him as prepared to be obedient to the truth as it comes to us.
AHG Is it the outcome of living communication or communion with God Himself?
AJG Yes, and seeing to it that whatever the knowledge of God requires in us in the way of walking in love, for instance, has its place with us.
APCL So that in Corinthians Paul has to say, “some are ignorant of God.”
AJG Quite so. “I speak to you as a matter of shame,” he says.
APCL I was somewhat interested to see that in verse 6 it is not ‘he that is of God hears us’ but “he that knows God hears us.” He changes from “We are of God” to “he that knows God hears us.”
Does not that involve that we give ourselves, in that sense, characteristically to know God?
AJG I think it should have that result. So that in what we had this morning there was the refusal of the truth by Cain, and then he goes and builds up a world. Then God starts afresh in the beginning of Genesis 5 with those who are going on on the line of life, and the seventh from Adam is Enoch, who walks with God. It is as though, moving on that line in independence of the world and separation from it, what you have before you is to know God, and to have your part in what we might call “the life of God,” walking with God.
APCL I was thinking that in contrast to that it is possible to allow ourselves to become built up in things which are really not of God, and do you think that dulls our capacity to hear?
AJG I am sure that is so. If we would seek grace to cultivate something of the reality of walking with God it would answer a great many questions that sometimes arise amongst us as to whether there is any harm in this or that, and so on. One has often been impressed with what Peter says of the Lord Jesus in John 6; he says, “to whom shall we go? Thou hast words of life eternal.” What kind of thing did the Lord speak to the apostles about, all the time that they were companying with Him? “Words of life eternal” was what Peter and the other apostles heard who companied with Jesus, and that was really what they were going on with in spite of the failings that we see from time to time.
EuR You referred again to “the life of God.” There was an exercise that a little further help as to that expression would be welcome.
AJG We get the expression in Ephesians 4. It says in verse 17, “This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye should no longer walk as the rest of the nations walk in the vanity of their mind,
being darkened in understanding, estranged from the life of God by reason of the ignorance which is in them.” I have often thought of Enoch as walking with God; walking with God day by day for 300 years he would get a very good impression of what the life of God was - that is to say, what God’s interests were, what He had before Him. God would let him into the secret of them. He would be entirely detached from the life of this world and would be in the enjoyment of eternal life. That is what we would develop in finding our life in things eternal. It is really the life of God; it is not Deity, of course, but it is a question of the interests of God - what God finds His life in, speaking reverently.
EuR Is it a creatorial thought that God’s intelligent creature, man, should be in the gain of? It says in Acts, “in him we live and move and exist”?
AJG No, I do not think it is quite a creatorial thought, but what do you have in mind in saying that?
EuR Well, that it is derived from the Creator, and He sustains us in it.
AJG That is true, of course, but then I think “the life of God,” as I understand the expression, and eternal life, which to my mind is very much linked with it, would go beyond that. It seems to me it would mean having a living interest in the world that God has before Him.
GAL Has it not been expressed in Christ as “the last Adam”? I mean does not that bring out especially the glory of Christ in relation to this great matter of life?
AJG That is life in the sense of what is communicated, is it not?
GAL Yes, but surely we enjoy what is communicated.
AJG That is true.
HDT Would that involve the development of tastes that are suited to God’s presence and outlook?
AJG Yes, and the life of God would be His love and what His love has designed, and what He is going on with, so to speak. God is not static or inactive.
PL Has it not a testimonial bearing? Is not the life of God very much a life of sacrificing love in the presence of a scene of evil?
AJG Well, that is the form it takes at the present time.
GAL Is that not the force of verse 9, “Herein as to us has been manifested the love of God.”
APCL But actually in verses 20 and 21 of that same chapter, Ephesians 4, there is a “but.” “But ye have not thus learnt the Christ, if ye have heard him and been instructed in him according as the truth is in Jesus.” Would that not be descriptively the life of God, for it occupied Jesus in His life?
AJG Yes, I think so.
GRC So would not the life of God at the present time be seen in “the new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness.”
AJG Well, those would be the features that belong to it, but then it seems to me there are the interests themselves, I do not know whether you would agree.
GRC Yes, I would, but I wondered whether in the first instance the life of God involves the manifestation of God in His nature and attributes, and that would lead on to what He moves in, as you say.
AJG Yes.
PHH Does Genesis 5 more or less set out the thought of the life of God? I think the names of some of these worthies mentioned suggest ‘the majestic’ and ‘ divine shining,’ and Jared ‘descending,’ God coming down. Then Enoch, I suppose, is a man beginning to take all that in by walking with God, and then Methushelah as arriving at something, and Lemech, the overcomer. Is there something active about all this life of God, which is superior to anything here as we walk in the sphere of divine interests?
AJG I think that is right. So that that chapter, although it keeps on saying, “and he died,” is actually the line of life. What it says of them is that they lived, and it is the line of life; it is over against the world that Cain built up, so that it is entirely apart from the world that is around us, and we find our life in what is of God.
PHH And in Noah it goes through.
AJG Quite so.
EJH Would some of those interests that belong to the life of God be expressed in what is said of Enoch in Jude, “Behold, the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads”?
AJG He would see the necessity for the judging of all that was existent in the world, in opposition to God, in order to introduce God’s world publicly.
EJH I was thinking of the communications that he would have had in the walk with God.
AJG Yes.
HAH The Lord Jesus said to His parents, “did ye not know that I ought to be occupied in my Father’s business?”
AJG Quite so. You might say there was the beginning of it there.
WF Would the expression in the epistles, “the things of God,” and “the things of Jesus Christ,” and “the things of the Spirit,” convey some impression of the life of God?
AJG I should think that would be right.
JAP Would it not invariably mean some appreciation of Christ?
AJG Well, it must mean that, because He is the Centre of God’s world, and the One who gives character to it.
WC Would not the whole tabernacle system be suggestive of the sphere, the life of God? There was constant movement there, in the bringing the sacrifices and so on, and the movement of the ark, toward another world, so to speak?
AJG Quite so. So that here, in verse 9, it is very touching that in the manifestation as to us of the love of God, what is in view is that we should live through Him, “that God has sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.” Then there is the additional thought, “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son a propitiation for our sins.” In both cases it is “his Son.”
WSS In verse 9, it is “Herein as to us.” In verse 10 there is no such reference. What would be the difference in the two thoughts?
AJG Well, in either case it is ourselves who are in mind, only it seems to me it is “as to us” in verse 9, because there is the great objective in mind that we might live through Him. It is life that God has in mind. But then in verse 10 it is a question of dealing with what lay in the way of our being brought into it, and love comes into expression in that.
WSS I wondered if God’s pleasure in what was being secured for His own glory might be seen in verse 10, particularly. Would that be right?
AJG I should like help from the brethren, but it seems to me that the greater thought is in verse 9, “that we might live through him.” Then verse 10 comes in as showing that because this great matter of sin was standing in the way, love came into expression in sending His Son as a propitiation for our sins.
AHG Would you say a little more as to “live through him”? Is that as having Christ before us objectively, or does it involve too His service towards us?
AJG Oh! I suppose it involves both, but the great point, I think, is “live” but “live through him.” That would mean that we live in relation to God.
RGB Was not God’s original thought, a scene in which there should be life and in which there should be those responding to Him livingly and substantially?
AJG Yes, I think so, and hence those early chapters in Genesis are so full of instruction. You get His meeting, in the coats of skin, all that had come in through sin, in principle, and then, when Cain has gone out and built a world in opposition to God, you get the great thought in chapter 5 of God beginning afresh on the line of life; that is, those who lived; it is the great line of life, and it culminates in a person walking with God.
WWM Would you connect that with John 10, “I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly.”
AJG Yes, I would. It is very touching, I think, that God has life in mind for us, and sent His Son, His only-begotten Son, that we might live through Him.
PHH What did you have in mind just now in stressing that it was His Son, in verses 9 and 10?
AJG Just to stress the love.
ABP Does it seem to bring in the truth as typified in Joseph? “He sent a man before them,” and then the great result is the Saviour of the world?
AJG That is interesting, because we come to that in verse 14, do we not? “We have seen, and testify, that the Father has sent the Son as Saviour of the world,” but He really sent Joseph before them to maintain life, did He not? That is what Joseph says, “God sent me before you to preserve life,”
Genesis 45: 5. But, now, there is the moral answer to these things on our part in verse 11. It is remarkable how constantly the truth in this epistle is applied to us in, you might say, a challenging way. “If God has so loved us, we also ought to love one another.” It is the moral sequence of learning divine love to us.
PL And it makes the brethren the true test of love with us, do you think?
AJG It does, and it makes too, in the circle of the brethren, a place where God can abide. That is a most encouraging thing, do you not think, that “if we love one another, God abides in us, and his love is perfected in us.” You cannot contemplate God finding congenial dwelling conditions apart from love, love among the brethren.
WSS Does it not raise an exercise with us as to how far we are really occupied with the love of God made known in such a marvellous way?
AJG It does, but then that raises the question as to how much we are really living, living in relation to God.
Ques Is the objective presentation of things in this epistle, the first one in verse 16 of chapter 3, and where we are reading now, a great help in matters of adjustment? There may be perhaps things in terms referred to as corrective, but should they not always be accompanied by a living presentation of Christ?
AJG Hence the importance of our cultivating links of brotherly love with one another, with our local brethren, with all of them, without partiality, and doing it before the troubles arise. I expect many will remember the reading we had in Park Street years ago with Mr. Taylor, in which he referred to Paul going up to Jerusalem to make the acquaintance of Peter. That was his object in going. He wanted to establish brotherly links with Peter, and that stood him in good stead later on when he had to withstand Peter to the face; he had already got brotherly links. So that although, for the truth’s sake, he had to withstand him to the face, the links of brotherly love were not broken.
JMcK Does this give us a scope for love? The brethren are a scope for love?
AJG They are the circle in which love is expressed and developed. You do not exactly love men in the world, you show grace to them.
APT Peter says, “our beloved brother Paul.”
AJG Yes, quite so.
EJH Where would you put the thought of love, in regard to our brethren with whom we cannot walk on account of the truth?
AJG Well, love, of course, has to maintain a certain reserve. You cannot go with them in opposition to the truth, but then there is the divine nature in them and in us, and there may be something perhaps that you can link on with in view of helping them.
AWGT They belong to the family, do they not?
AJG They belong to the family, and they have got Christ in their hearts.
EJH I think Mr. Darby said that we should keep our feet in the narrow path, and our heart as large as we can.
AJG Quite so.
APT Was Paul speaking to Peter, when he came down to Antioch, righteousness or love, or both?
AJG Both, surely. It was love of the truth and love of his brother that marked Paul in withstanding Peter to the face.
GRC Does the presentation of the Lord in Revelation 2 and 3 help, in that He was girt about the breasts with a golden girdle? He was reviewing the church in responsibility, and His affections could not flow out so freely as He would have desired. I was thinking of those we cannot walk with.
AJG Quite so. But then in regard of Laodicea, we find that He is prepared to stand at the door and knock, because there is someone that is true there.
ABP Does the reference to the breasts, however, show that love was there?
AJG It does, indeed.
HDT Indeed it is mentioned in the word to Laodicea, “I rebuke and discipline as many as I love.”
AJG Yes.
CJHD Would you say that Acts 15 shows how helpful love is in getting the brethren into line with the truth, for having arrived at a common judgment it is said that they sent “our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ”? Do you think that would help forward the matter of the present truth among us, if those who present it are of that character?
AJG It certainly would, because it would commend the truth, undoubtedly. Then they took pains to send Judas and Silas as well, two whom I suppose the brethren at Antioch had probably never met before, who should tell them the same things. So that they were careful that they should be fully assured as to what had been arrived at.
APT The word ‘grace’ apparently does not appear in this epistle.
AJG Well, what is your thought in that?
APT I wondered if it is the same word as ‘love,’ or at least if it is not on that line. It answers to it - grace and truth. How can we help the brethren apart from grace, which is really loving them?
AJG It is quite true that you cannot help them apart from grace, but love is a deeper thing than grace. Love is the root of grace. Grace is love in activity, adapting itself to the needs of those whom you are moving towards.
WD Mr. Stoney said he would never love his brother beyond the standard of the truth. If there was a reserve as to the truth he should show a reserve in his love.
AJG That is true. We have it in chapter 2, “He that loves his brother abides in light.” If I compromise the truth out of affection for my brother I am not abiding in light. “He that loves his brother abides in light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him.”
AHG Would you say a little as to the bearing of verse 12, “No one has seen God at any time”; and then, “if we love one another, God abides in us.”
AJG God dwells in those conditions, I think. “God abides in us, and his love is perfected in us” and there you see the nature of God. No one has seen God at any time, He has been declared in the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, but now you can see the nature of God in expression in the circle of the saints; His love prevails there.
AHG Is that the continuation of your thought that this is a circle in which what is of God is seen?
AJG Quite so, and seen in an abiding way. “God abides in us, and his love is perfected in us.”
HW Would you connect that with the expression “which thing is true in him and in you”? In the first chapter of John’s gospel it is the only-begotten Son who has declared Him, now God is known through His people here, according to this epistle.
AJG Yes, there seems to be the same thought, “which thing is true in him and in you.”
WSS God abiding in the saints and giving us of His Spirit - is that the basis of the testimony? “We have seen, and testify.”
AJG Quite so. It is the basis of our knowledge. “Hereby we know that we abide in him and he in us, that he has given to us of his Spirit,” and then the testimony flows out from that, “we have seen, and testify, that the Father has sent the Son as Saviour of the world.”
GCS This is not limited to our localities, is it? Would it not go out universally?
AJG Oh! that is quite true, but it is in our localities that the reality of these things is tested. It is there that love really expresses itself, in the circle in which we have to move continually.
WF Do you connect this with John 13 and 14, the Lord’s service in feet-washing and then His references to “love among yourselves” and love to one another, and then in chapter 14 the abiding conditions?
AJG Yes, I think that is right.
APCL Could you tell us what you see to be the difference between verse 13, “he has given to us of his Spirit,” and the last clause of the previous chapter, “hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given to us.” Is there some distinction?
AJG Well, “given to us of his Spirit” seems to me to point somewhat to the feelings and affections of God, do you not think?
APCL I do. So therefore it is not just a matter of the indwelling Spirit but that He has given us “of his Spirit.”
AJG Quite so, so that the same Spirit marks us.
ABP I should like to ask for help as to what is spoken of, I think, four times in this section, namely, the thought of love being perfected. I wondered whether this was what the apostle was working up to.
AJG I think so, so that we are immovable, love is perfected. Whatever happens in your individual circumstances or in the testings that arise in the testimony or conditions among the saints, whatever arises that may distress the mind and spirit, you are not shaken in your enjoyment of divine love, you have arrived at fixedness.
ABP Would it be right to say that not only have you appreciated love in revelation, but you have put it into circulation, and experienced it coming back?
AJG I think that is so. The more we learn to love one another, the more we find that love is circulating among the saints, and, in fact, we receive a great deal more love than we show, as a rule.
JM Would you open up a little the thought of abiding in God?
AJG It is the result of the knowledge of God, that we have got a fixed position. One has referred already in these readings to what Mr. Taylor said years ago, in connection with this verse; he linked it with Psalm 90, how Moses said, “Lord, thou hast been our dwelling-place in all generations.” What a thing for a man to say! In all the vicissitudes that Moses experienced with the people he found his rest and his home in God, the knowledge of God. And so that is what we are being brought to here, “God is love, and he that abides in love abides in God, and God in him.” The love that is enjoyed is traced to its source.
JAP Is verse 15 an encouragement to the feeblest?
AJG “Whoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God. God abides in him, and he in God.” I think so, because the confession involves that we are in the light of the revelation of God, the way that God has come out to us in love.
PHH Do you think the tender way in which the Lord dealt with the man in John 9, and His question in the end, would show that there is a certain desire of love with the Lord, that we should arrive at this point? Is it something like love’s perfecting?
AJG Yes, I think so. You mean that the Lord was really leading the man on, in order that he might arrive at this, that he really had got the Son of God before his soul.
PHH Yes. He says, “dost thou believe on the Son of God?”
AJG Yes.
ABP And would you say Martha also, how settled she seems to be in John 12, after having confessed Jesus as Son of God, according to chapter 11.
AJG Quite so. She needed a little adjustment after that still, in the latter part of John 11, but, as you say, she really came to settled conditions in John 12. She says, “I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, who should come into the world,” John 11: 27.
MPS What is the importance of the word ‘seen’ in verse 14, in connection with what has just been said?
AJG I suppose it gives power to the testimony, “We speak that which we know” is somewhat of that character. “We have seen, and testify, that the Father has sent the Son as Saviour of the world.” What do you think yourself?
MPS I was connecting it in my mind with the Lord’s words, “This is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son, and believes on him, should have life eternal,” and then the passage referred to in John 9, “thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he.”
GCS Is it seen in John 4, the woman having to do with the Lord, and then those to whom she went speaking of Him as the Saviour of the world?
AJG Quite so. That is a good example.
APCL As to love being perfected, verse 17 seems to give an extension of that in regard of “boldness in the day of judgment.”
AJG I think that is encouraging, because every one of us has, in principle, to face the day of judgment, not condemnation, but God will bring every work into judgment and we must all be manifested before the judgment-seat of Christ. But then love is perfected with us, “that we may have boldness in the day of judgment,” that is, when things are tested, so to speak, and what gives us boldness is that “as he is, we also are in this world.” I think that expression “as he is” is most encouraging; it directs our hearts to Jesus as He is, and where He is. He is in the Father’s love; He is the centre of the love of God, you might say. In God’s presence, it says, there is fulness of joy, and Jesus is there. He is there in complete acceptance, as the Object of love, the love that abides upon Him. Well now, “as he is, we also are in this world.” That would give the greatest boldness to us.
APCL So that it does not say that love will be perfected in view of that, but it has been. Are we to have the consciousness of that now, so that something of what He is should mark us in this world?
AJG Quite so, and that we become fixed and immovable, I think, so that we can always draw near to God without any fear or distance. Even if things come in that have to be confessed, well, they can be confessed.
JSE Are these assuring statements for our encouragement to move on this substantial highway?
AJG Yes, I think so.
AHG Is this elimination of fear a very necessary matter for us?
AJG It is, because it is natural to us, when we do not know God, of course, to fear. Many Christians are not made perfect in love, but this epistle has in view that we should be perfected in love.
APT “In this world.” What does that actually mean?
AJG Just where we are.
A.P.T. Is it physical?
AJG You mean it is not the world in a moral sense?
APT Yes; I was asking for help.
AJG Well, quite so. We do not belong to the world in a moral sense. We are not of the world, even as He is not of the world, but then we are in it in actual fact, and there is a great deal that is distressing going on around us all the time, but then “as he is, we also are in this world.”
LF These verses 15 to 19, in that way, really bring to light the reality which you have mentioned several times in these meetings.
AJG Yes. It is a question of giving us substance in our souls, so that we are fixed in the knowledge of God and that it develops as we come out in the features that are proper to those who know God.
GRC Do you link the thought of “as he is” with being as He is in righteousness and love - the two lines you have had before you?
AJG We had earlier that He is the propitiation for our sins, so that every question of righteousness is settled from that point of view, and He is the Object of unchanging love. That is how it strikes me. I do not know what you think about it. It is “as he is”; He Himself marks out the position that God has placed us in.
GRC And if we answer to what is put out here, are we really in the joy of that position? Is that how love becomes perfected?
AJG Yes, I think so.
PHH Does it link on at all with 2 Corinthians 5, which I think you had in mind earlier, where the judgment-seat is spoken about? “For we must all be manifested before the judgment-seat of the Christ, that each may receive the things done in the body,” and so on. But does it mean that as formed in love, perfected, that that state of things and that time is anticipated without any fear, and indeed the manifestation becomes a reality now?
AJG Yes, I think so, and I think we can see that while it is a sobering consideration, that we must be manifested before the judgment-seat of the Christ, to receive the things done in the body, yet the more we know God and know Christ the more we will welcome the idea, because it means that we will receive everything that has been done in the body with His own judgment upon it; and it means that we will come into complete accord with His own mind and judgment in regard of everything.
PHH And is John’s thought here that that should come about now?
AJG That we should have boldness in view of it. Quite so.
PL “We” involving our relations with one another, do you not think, among other thoughts? All our relations are clarified in the light of the scrutiny and presence of God in light.
AJG I think that is so. That is involved in what we have had in the first chapter, that we walk in the light. “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all,” and now He has come out into the light and we walk in the light.
PL Do you not think the former is general, and this is specific in matters that will arise, because the judgment-seat involves detail, does it not?
AJG Yes, quite so.
ABP And does our boldness relate to sincerity now in the anticipation that the judgment-seat of Christ will, in the main, at least, be a confirmation of right judgment arrived at here?
AJG Exactly. There is thus no reason why we should not very largely, at any rate, anticipate the judgment-seat of Christ by getting the Lord’s judgment upon detail now, day by day.
HDT It is a positive statement, is it not? It is not ‘as He was so ought we to be’ but “as he is, we also are.”
AJG Quite so.
HDT Any real believer can take great comfort from that, because that is the divine point of view, is it not?
AJG Exactly.