READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (9)
[p. 110] READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (9)
Rem It has been suggested many times that in Romans we get things indicated without their being expanded, or fully developed. I was thinking that in the section read we get two things of high importance, first the light of the world to come and the liberty of the glory connected with it, and then the purpose of God, which touches what is eternal.
JT The first section gives us the Holy Spirit in us as a present state; then we are seen looking on to the coming glory.
BTF These verses provide wonderful sustainment for us while we are left here amid the groaning and the suffering.
JT The christian here is seen as waiting adoption, that is, the redemption of his body. Whereas, the creature generally is looking out, or expecting the revelation of those who have adoption, namely, the sons of God.
CAM You made a distinction between a christian and the creature.
JT “For the anxious looking out of the creature expects the revelation of the sons of God”. The “creature” refers to creation. How that may be true concretely is, perhaps, difficult to show; but it is taken account of abstractly here.
ANW All that came under the fall.
JT Yes, it goes on to say, “The creature has been made subject to vanity, not of its will, but by reason of him who has subjected the same, in hope that the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God”. It refers abstractly to the whole realm of creation which was affected by Adam’[p. 111] s fall.
JB Would that bring in the animals too?
JT Yes. A distinction is made between the believer and creation here. “For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now. And not only that, but even we ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, we also ourselves groan in ourselves, awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body”.
Rem What is indicated in the prophets will then be effectuated. Compare Isaiah 65:17 - 25. This is connected with Hebrews 2, “We see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus ... crowned with glory and honour”. He is there in connection with the establishment and maintenance of the world to come.
JT The passage quoted adds, “By the grace of God he should taste death for every thing”. Clearly here it is to work out the truth of the gospel, not only in regard of the believer, but to show its bearing in respect of the whole realm affected by sin. Having touched on the sufferings of this present time, which he reckoned were not worthy to be compared with the glory which should be revealed to us, the apostle is led to speak of creation. It is most interesting and touching, because it shows the extent of divine sympathy in the gospel. It is not simply man, although he comes in first here, the believer’s place is emphasised by the repetition of the word ‘ourselves’ (see verse 23). He shows the dignity and prominence of the believer. But the Spirit of God shows in the passage the extent of divine sympathy in the gospel in that the whole realm of creation looks out anxiously for deliverance. Everything that came under sin is in His mind and will come into the benefit, according to its measure, of the gospel.
Rem One sees that God has ever been exceedingly thoughtful of the creatures of the universe. He made His covenant with Noah to protect them. “A [p. 112] righteous man regardeth the life of his beast” (Proverbs 12:10). And with regard to sparrows, “one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father” (Matthew 10:29). Also the prophets speak of peace and restfulness coming in for the creature. The Lord Himself groaned. It may be helpful to read a word or two of the footnote of the New Translation on John 11:38. It says, ‘Or’ groaned ‘... But here as within in spirit, it is not the expression of anger. It was the feeling produced by the deep pain caused by seeing the power of death over the human spirit. There was so far indignation that there was deep antagonism to the power of evil and Satan in death’.
ANW Does it not help to notice that this is still the subject of the Spirit? A kind of a counterpart to it?
BTF Verse 15 is the upward cry, but this which we are now considering refers to the lower part of creation in connection with which the Spirit is sympathetic.
ANW The Spirit of adoption does not lead us so high that we forget what is here.
JT We are not indifferent to what is being endured in creation on account of sin.
AFM We are now able to take an intelligent account of it by the Spirit, considering what has been before us in the earlier part of the chapter, and to look out and see the final result of everything — all being recovered for God.
JT The christian would be sympathetic with his beast, according to the Proverb quoted, and indeed, with the whole realm of suffering creation.
JS The conditions of the body are taken account of, “even we ourselves groan within ourselves”.
JT “Awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body”.
Rem A christian becomes sensitive as to creation. One cannot help feeling, when one sees a horse [p. 113] cruelly treated: it is part of the depravity of man that has come in through his sin, and is repulsive to God; one feels for the thing injured; and regards the world as an intolerable place. “The whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now”. The Lord at the grave of Lazarus felt the power of sin over man. Here it is all creation which He will deliver.
AFM When Adam fell, all creation fell with him; we have to take that into account. There is the other side presented in verse 21.
JT I think God is regarding what we call the lower, the inanimate, creation as not guilty. The guilt is charged to the head. The four living creatures in Revelation 4 represent what God secures in the way of sympathy in His own doings, from the creation. The throne is there supported by the representatives of creation, as if in triumph. The four and twenty elders would have in view those experienced and intelligent who are qualified to reign and are able to give an account of things; but the creation itself is represented as secured through the gospel in the four living creatures — they are living! A remarkable testimony to the power of the gospel.
JB What is the “glory to be revealed to us”?
JT It is all that God has displayed in Christ. But, to follow up the thought of the living creatures, it is a great point to see, in the description given, that they are not angelic figures. They are figures taken from the lower creation, lest Satan might assume that God had to bring everything out of heaven, the whole lower realm being lost to Him. Whereas, the gospel secures all. The living creatures are seen in the four heads of the animal kingdom in Revelation 4:7.
AFM I notice that after the living creatures are described, the twenty four elders fall before Him,
and then “Every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and those that are upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, to the ages of ages. And the four living creatures said, Amen; and the elders fell down and did homage” (Revelation 5:13,14). Here again the elders are introduced after the living creatures, suggesting that what is set forth in them is now found in the redeemed, as the result of the gospel.
Rem I think that is strikingly supported in Revelation 4:11, “Thou art worthy, O our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honour and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy will they were, and they have been created”. That is, the pleasure of God is emphasised in connection with bringing into view the four living creatures.
JT There is also what is secured in the way of sympathetic interest in these four heads of creation — the four living creatures. “The first ... like a lion” suggests the security of that dignity which man lost in the fall. “The second ... like, a calf”: the foot of the ox is very firm and steady; patience also is suggested, which God has secured. Instead of man’s feet being swift to shed blood, he is steadily employed in the carrying out of God’s will and maintaining His interests here on earth. “The third ... having the face as of a man” denotes intelligence, not angelic in character, but what God originally purposed in Eden; therefore man’s countenance is no longer in hiding. “The fourth ... like a flying eagle” — in that powerful bird, swift for the prey, is suggested man as swift for God’s will. It is the rapidity with which man as recovered now carries out that will. All divine thoughts connected with earth are again set up; but by means of the gospel. In this we see God’s great triumph!
ANW It says: “four living creatures, full of eyes, before and behind”.
JT Everything is seen by these agents of God’s government.
Rem The absorbing of light and the expansion of intelligence. Returning to our chapter we have in verse 19, “the revelation of the sons of God”; and in verse 21, “the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God”. There is a distinction there — “sons of God” and “children of God”.
JT I suppose “sons of God” would refer to the saints as of heavenly origin and calling; whereas “children of God” would be those who have suffered here, but in suffering bore witness to the nature of God.
Rem So the argument would seem to be that when the children of God are in their place — when they are seen in the liberty of the glory — everything else in creation will, so to speak, be automatically right.
ANW Do you understand that this remarkable paragraph, from verses 18 - 30, flows out of the expression, “suffer with him”?
JT Yes, I think that right, it all flows out of it.
ANW Is it not striking that in this paragraph he reaches, as an accomplished fact, what in the previous paragraph is still in prospect? In verse 30 the glory is accomplished, whereas in verse 17 it is still in prospect.
JT Is not that stated as only God can state things? That is, the full thought in His mind is presented, aside from the historical fact, except that the glorification is involved in the Spirit being in us. As to the historical fact, it is still future. “But whom he has predestinated, these also he has called; and whom he has called, these also he has justified;
[p. 116] but whom he has justified, these also he has glorified”. If we say that that means the Holy Spirit is in us, of course, we can understand it; but I apprehend that it must assume the full result — our having glorified bodies.
Rem Verses 29 and 30 really involve Ephesians; it is a question of eternal purpose; the truth is there presented from the divine side; failure and an interval of time are not contemplated.
JT It is what God does, as the passage clearly shows, “For we do not know what we should pray for as is fitting, but the Spirit itself makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered. But he who searches the hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit”. Then the two ‘becauses’: “Because he intercedes for saints according to God. But we do know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to purpose. Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be the firstborn among many brethren”. That is one great thought in the passage. Then, “But whom he has predestinated, these also he has called; and whom he has called, these also he has justified; but whom he has justified, these also he has glorified”.
CAM The word ‘called’ is in time, “whom he has called”.
JT The word “justified”, too. “Foreknown” is historically true and “predestinated” is historically true also; but you could not say that it is historically true that I am conformed to the image of His Son. Could you?
ANW Only in a moral sense.
JT He has predestinated us to be conformed; but we could not say we are so definitely, nor can we say we are glorified definitely; we must therefore take it as the full divine thought for us.
[p. 117] Rem That is it. It seems to me it is abstract.
ANW Why do we not say what Scripture says, “These also he has glorified”?
JT Because it is not put as historically true. It must be viewed from the divine side, just as in Ephesians. God only can say these things. He “calleth those things which be not as though they were” (Romans 4:17).
ANW I notice that the words, “with him”, used in verse 17 are left out here. In verse 17 it is glorification with Him which is prospective; but in verse 30 it simply says, “these also he has glorified”.
JT As Mr. Raven pointed out, the gift of the Holy Spirit was in principle the glorification of the believer; but, I think, when you come to look at it from the divine side, God has in His mind the change of the believer’s body; for we are to be conformed to the image of His Son. The complete work is in view. If we are to be glorified, it is to “his body of glory” that we are to be conformed.
Rem The idea of time does not enter into it, it seems to me. It is what is abstractly true.
BP Would you say we are fully justified now?
JT We are justified on the principle of faith; but when you come to analyse it, it would be difficult to say that one is absolutely (that is, taking account of one’s daily life) justified now. Therefore, I think, it is the full divine thought as to believers which is in view here ( verses 29,30). Our wilderness circumstances are not contemplated. It is not a partial justification, nor a partial glorification, but the full result in the mind of God, which necessarily involves the change of the body.
Rem So that verse 33 is not by faith. God justifies.
CAM The assurance of the whole thing is that we have [p. 118] the Spirit.
JT Surely. Not only that, but the possession of the Spirit, in a sense, does glorify, “for the Spirit of glory ... rests upon you”.
CAM It connects the body we shall have with our present bodies.
JS There is a certain triumph on the Spirit’s line, as reached in the end of the paragraph, that God does not stop at any half-way measures — He goes right on to the full divine thought.
TH What is “the image of his Son”?
JT I think we shall be fully like Him, so that there is perfect representation.
Rem It is not the image of Adam, but the image of His Son.
JT And it is, “that he should be the firstborn among many brethren”. It is on account of what God thinks about Him.
CAM Is it right to say that “image” is external?
JT That is what we shall be, I understand, as we come out. “We shall be like him” 1 John 3:2 says: “it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is”. We shall be like him; that is the point.
Rem “Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself”.
AFM Would the thought of being “conformed to the image of his Son” be in view of presentation or display? It would be rather in view of the former, would it not?
JT I think both. “When he brings in the firstborn into the habitable world”. The Firstborn! “He says, And let all God’s angels worship him” (Hebrews 1:6). But then He has others: He is the Leader of a race, or family, and they come into view.
[p. 119] Rem It goes further than presentation. It establishes the eternal status — what is ever before the face of God.
JT “What shall we then say to these things?” Now we come to a full stop, and attention is called to “these things”. Evidently he has reached the thought that was in his mind, and the believer is now to ponder “these things”.
Rem If one understands this, he will be hungry for Ephesians.
ANW He individualises himself three times in this chapter, in verses 2, 18, and 38.
JT In verse 2 he says he is set free. In verse 18 he reckons, and in verse 38 he is persuaded.
Rem There is an interesting distinction between the love of Christ and the love of God.
JT You would say that the love of Christ is spoken of here in connection with wilderness things.
Rem Yes, material things.
JT The other things (verses 38,39) mentioned are more of a spiritual nature. Indeed, the whole universe is challenged.
Ques Does the love of Christ refer to Christ as Priest?
JT Yes, I think so. It is the love He has for us as a Man. It is to be distinguished from the love of God, which was in Him. We have to work out in our souls the difference between Christ for us as Man, “who loved me, and gave himself for me” (Galatians 2:20) and the love of God in Him. As become Man, He has a man’s affections and He begets affection. So you have “my delights were with the sons of men” (Proverbs 8:31), implying personal interest in men. I suppose, “sons of men” properly are a product, spiritually, of what Christ was as a Man here as seen in the gospels. There is a peculiar interest in a son. It says of the young man, “Jesus beholding him loved him” (Mark 10:21). There is the charm of youthfulness.
[p. 120] The Lord found His delight in such; but I think they were the product of what was seen in Him as a Man down here. Then there is the love of God, and the love of God is enjoyed by the sons of God.
AFM We get these two thoughts suggested every Lord’s day morning, in the bread and the cup, do we not?
JT The first is the love of Christ, “This is my body which is given for you” (Luke 22:19). That is His personal love for them, so that He goes the full length of giving Himself for them — He gives Himself! But then, there was besides that, and at the same time, in Christ the full revelation of the love of God; although immeasurable, it was all there and the witness of that is the cup.
Rem It is most interesting to set over against the love of God all satanic and spiritual powers of wickedness, things which did not originate in connection with wilderness circumstances but which go far back into the very origin of things, just as the love of God goes back into the origin of things. The love of Christ may be connected with the throne of grace: “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need” (Hebrews 4:16). In Hebrews we get sympathy and power in connection with the priesthood and the throne. But the love of God takes account of spiritual wickedness, principalities, powers, and the like, height and depth, everything in the created sphere; the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord, is that from which none of these things can separate us.
JT The set of circumstances that surrounded the Lord at the last supper may be made to correspond with the first set of circumstances here, and in spite of them all, He was unaffected by them, and told out His personal love for the disciples. But, after that, Gethsemane comes in; there is another [p. 121] cup — the cup of wrath. Satan would have come between the people of God and the love of God, he could have prevented Christ from taking that cup.
ANW Would spiritual powers attempt to raise moral issues between man and God?
JT I suppose they would. I suppose these are elements that are encountered in ourselves, more than in our bodies.
JS Is it the consciousness of the love of Christ that sustains one in wilderness conditions?
JT He makes you feel His love is ever present; He can sympathise with us, for He has been through everything. Verses 35 - 37 present circumstances in which He once was. “For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we have been reckoned as sheep for slaughter”. The Lord has been just there, “He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth” (Acts 8:32). It is the position of a saint here in the wilderness — he is in the minds of others as one intended for slaughter. They have no other thought; you are not fit for their system of things.
Ques What is the idea of conquerors?
JT One is not under the circumstances spoken of — one is not depressed by but superior to them. Being accounted as sheep for the slaughter is a very terrible thing for the flesh, when not resisting it. As James 5:6 says, “Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you”. It is hard for the flesh to refuse to resist. But how can it be done? Through the love of Christ; to refuse to resist through the power of the love of Christ is victory. One can only be a victor, divinely, as corresponding with Christ in conflict. So it is coming out in the Spirit of Christ that the victory is assured. “We are more than conquerors through him that loved us”.
[p. 122] Rem One gets wonderful gain out of it. If I am delivered from death, I have the sense of my deliverance; but here is a suggestion: you may not be delivered outwardly, but you get wonderful gain in the sense of the support of the love, and power of Christ.
ANW It would be easier to be put to death once, than to be killed all the day long.