READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (7)
[p. 79] READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (7)
Rem I suppose we get here, in the first three verses, a summing up of things which have been developed in the previous chapters, in order to introduce the great subject of the Spirit. Verse 4 opens it up by saying, “In order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit”. So that, as we were seeing, in chapter 5 it was deliverance from Adam in order to come under Christ. In chapter 6 it was a question of deliverance from the practical power of sin in the world; and in chapter 7 it was a question of the issues of the law. It has been pointed out that the first three verses of chapter 8 correspond to those three things, so making room for the Spirit.
JD-s I would suggest that the positive side of things is to be introduced in a special way. You spoke of the Spirit. “In order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit”.
JT The Spirit brings in practical righteousness.
Rem There is a new power working in the christian.
JT The introduction of practical righteousness is prominent at the outset of the chapter. “The righteous requirement of the law” is not a full expression of practical righteousness, but involves much in the way of a moral victory. This is what the law was aiming at. The law is not null or void — it is retained in its righteous requirement. I suppose the expression, “the Spirit life on account of righteousness”, would go on to full practical righteousness.
AFM Have we in this chapter what corresponds to the plains of Moab?
JT I think so. The full recognition of the Spirit involves not only the plains of Moab, but Mount Nebo.
AFM Hitherto the law had not been kept; but now every requirement of it could be fulfilled because we have the Spirit.
JT We were noticing last evening about things being done when the sun was hot (Nehemiah 7:3), that is, when it is in the meridian. That would be the objective side — the truth developed in chapters 3, 4, and 5, which bring God in Christ into His full place in the soul objectively. Having thus His full place, chapter 8 gives the Spirit a corresponding place in the believer. In the type, Numbers 21, we have, “Sing ye unto it”. The Spirit, typically, becomes recognised fully.
JS He is recognised as a source of power.
JT Yes; instead of the flesh.
ANW Where is the flesh dealt with in this chapter?
JT It is dealt with doctrinally in chapter 7. Of course, actually on the cross, that is, Romans 3 and Romans 7 took place at the same time as to fact. Therefore chapter 8 comes in immediately. Paul’s ‘therefores’ and ‘ifs’ are links in the teaching. Now, I think, the “therefore” of chapter 8:1 links with chapter 7, not with chapter 3. It is not exemption from wrath to come exactly, but rather condemnation of conscience. He was consciously condemned as in the state described in chapter 7. Those “in Christ Jesus” are immune from that.
Rem I was wondering if you would not bring in chapter 6 also in connection with the question of the flesh.
JT “The body of sin” (chapter 6), refers, I think, to the totality of sin outside of me; that is, in the world. It is broken up in the old man having been crucified; but victory over sin in the flesh, I think, is wrought out in the individual.
Rem There is that difference between chapters 6 and 7.
JT In chapter 7, the man has discovered the power of the flesh. It is there; but he does not see it formally condemned. Mark, it is not said to be crucified as chapter 6 says of our old man; here the flesh is condemned, as a principle, so I need not regard it any longer.
AFM In the end of chapter 7 it says, “So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God”. “I myself”. There seems to be the connecting of oneself with what is of God. Then, “with the flesh the law of sin”. There is the ability to distinguish between the one and the other.
JT I think the man has arrived at the truth experimentally; he has come to recognise an inward man. I suppose it is some formation which answers to Christ in me. And, then, he defines the position more clearly, saying, “I myself with the mind serve God’s law”. He is now in control, so to speak, of the house. If sin’s law is served, it is the flesh, so the position is clear. Chapter 8 takes that as a basis, “There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus”.
Rem Having, so to speak, isolated and brought into view the inward man, chapter 8 brings into view the power by which that man can effectively live to God, namely, the power of the Spirit.
JT “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death”. This goes beyond chapter 7, which is a mental process; but “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus” is a positive thing in a new position;
[p. 82] and governs that new position. Then he says, “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh”.
ARS In connection with this expression, “in Christ Jesus”, is Noah in the ark an example, or illustration, of this? For instance, Noah was placed in the ark, the Lord shut him in, and he was beyond the judgment.
JT I suppose so, only that the word ‘condemnation’ here refers rather to what is going on in one’s self. The expression “in Christ Jesus” of chapter 6 would be more in accord with the type of Noah, for in Noah you have the principle of baptism: salvation from what is without — the world, or the polluted system outside. “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us”. So you reckon yourself to be dead to sin — not sin within you, but sin outside of you. You are dead to it. In Colossians dead from it: “from the elements of the world”. Your back is toward it. In Romans it is before you, but it has no power over you; you reckon yourself dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
AFM In chapter 6 it is a reckoning — you reckon yourself dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus; but in chapter 8 it says, “There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death”.
JT There is no idea of reckoning there, it is a fact.
Rem I would suggest, in connection with our brother’s question, that the point of contrast is “in Christ”, instead of being ‘in Adam’. Adam was the man of condemnation, and condemnation is in my conscience as of Adam; but, through being [p. 83] transferred to Christ, with all the blessed effects of His redemption work, I am in the sphere in connection with a Man who is in resurrection, beyond the power of death, and who has not to do with sin in any way. I am in One with whom the idea of condemnation can never connect itself.
JT I think this question of position helps very much in the understanding of Romans. In chapter 6 it is: “Reckon yourselves ... alive to God in Christ Jesus”. Then, in that same chapter, “Eternal life in Christ Jesus”, that is its position; but in this chapter it is not that I reckon myself alive to God in Christ Jesus simply; but there are those who are definitely in Christ Jesus, and there is a law governing the position, namely, “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus”.
JS So that condemnation does not apply to that position. You have changed your position, as well as your man, have you not?
Rem The position is based really upon resurrection. It is based upon One who, having passed through death, has dealt with sin, and has come into resurrection, where the elements of sin and death could never intrude; therefore the whole matter of condemnation is disposed of forever.
BTF Would you say the great point after “in Christ Jesus” is the Spirit as power for walk?
JT The chapter really develops, so to speak, the functions of the Spirit; but as you suggested, we begin with the new position — that of those “in Christ Jesus”.
JS In this new position the Spirit of God is free, is not hampered at all.
JT The apostle adds a thought about himself to the general statement, which shows the working of it, and which is valuable to any one who goes in for it, namely, “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death”. He is the typical man positionally — he is free. The next thing is, “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh”. Where did He condemn it? In the flesh.
CAM Do you connect responsibility with the state, “in Christ Jesus”?
JT Yes. I think Scripture does; it says, “All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution” (2 Timothy 3:12).
ANW Is it not remarkable that the apostle begins to develop state as soon as he has mentioned the position?
JT Yes. It shows the bearing of the chapter. He wants to make prominent that there is a new state. Not only a new position, but a state corresponding with it.
ANW Does not chapter 8 present the climax of deliverance?
JT It shows you the way of deliverance, that is, Christ is presented as the Deliverer — “I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord”. He is the means of it, but then, you change the preposition in chapter 8, it is “in Christ Jesus”. The believer is now in that position.
ANW I thought that chapter 8 discovered the new Husband.
JT It does. Verses 1 - 4 of chapter 7 lay down what is to be reached in the chapter. We do reach the Husband, but chapter 8 is more than that.
ANW I thought that Christ became prominent in chapter 7, God in chapter 6, and the Spirit in chapter 8.
JT The great thing one sees in spiritual things is that finality is reached. Not only am I delivered from the consequences of sin but He places me in a fixed position, where all is perfectly secured, as here,
“in Christ Jesus”. The position is so marvellous; would that we could lay hold of it! Paul says, “who shall put you in mind of my ways as they are in Christ” (1 Corinthians 4:17).
AFM Do you connect the expression, “in Christ Jesus”, with the land or the wilderness?
JT I think with the land; you have nothing fixed in the wilderness.
AFM If the chapter is typical of the plains of Moab, how is it that we start with this remarkable expression?
JT He says it only in the abstract. He does not say it formally of the Romans. It is “to those”, not ‘to you’.
Rem I think Romans 8:1 is like many of the psalms. It states the conclusion that is eventually reached, and then goes back and works along to the details that lead up to it.
JT He can state it of himself. In the second verse he says he is set free, but the whole chapter is that all might be set free.
Rem It works up to that end.
BTF When you have, “those in Christ Jesus”, that is spoken of a people who have the Spirit; then the Spirit sets you free and becomes power.
JT That is the teaching of the chapter; but as we have been remarking, the first verse is the great end to be reached — it is not in the wilderness; it is in the land, “in Christ Jesus”.
WB Is this new law for the wilderness, or for the land?
JT “In Christ Jesus” always connects itself with a fixed position, and that is not in the wilderness. We must be careful to notice how it is put: “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death”. He only says it of himself.
[p. 86] Rem We need, perhaps, a little word of explanation here, that the use of the “law” does not always, or generally, mean the covenant at mount Sinai. It is the principle or rule, of life in Christ Jesus; or the principle or rule, of sin and death.
TA “The law of sin and of death” cannot be the covenant at mount Sinai. What then is it?
JT I think it is wrought out in chapter 7. “I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members”. It is the state of man in the flesh. He is governed by that law, and whatever legislation might do for him, it remains the same in principle until the end. It is death, not, however, in the sense in which it is spoken of as “the wages of sin”; but rather, the state in which he is as away from God.
Rem “Dead in trespasses and sins” and “Aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world”.
AFM Some may not have connected responsibility with the land.
JT Our position in Christ necessarily enters into our walk and ways here. The apostle in writing to the Galatians connects it with new creation: “For in Christ Jesus neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision; but new creation. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace upon them and mercy” (chapter 6:15,16). Now, new creation is obviously in the land; it belongs to it, and yet, it is a rule. I think that in your daily life and circumstances you are governed not only by the initial thoughts which you received at your conversion and which continue, but you are governed and coloured by the greatest, the most precious, light you have in your soul.
ANW “I ... beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called”.
JT [p. 87] That is it.
Rem I would suggest that the epistle to the Philippians gives us the light in which responsibility is viewed for one who is “in Christ Jesus” — who is in the land. It is the light for those who come out from that position and who walk in the light and power of it. Responsibility is connected with Philippians, but for one who knows his place in the land.
ARS The very expression “in the land” helps, because the children of Israel were placed in the land, and were responsible to obey what God told them to do. It was distinctly stated, if they did not obey, they would lose the land.
JT I think, however, whilst “in Christ Jesus” involves the land, it is well to remember that Romans does not develop it; when you come to the epistles which treat of the land, or the inheritance, you have added thoughts to “in Christ Jesus”. In Ephesians we have “who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ” (chapter 1:3). You have the added thought, “in the heavenlies”. Again, He “has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus” (chapter 2:6). Ephesians is, properly speaking, the epistle which develops the truth of our position in the land. Romans is more the Person in whom I am. I think the question raised as to responsibility is helpful; also that we should see that our responsibility flows from the full height of our position, or privilege, rather than from any prescribed law.
ARS It used to be said, ‘The greater the privilege, the more responsibility’.
JT “For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth” (Deuteronomy 14:2). Responsibility for Israel was based on this. The Lord, Himself, is the best example — He walked here as the [p. 88] heavenly Man. He magnified the law, and made it honourable; but His walk and ways went far beyond that.
AFM So you have the light of it in the Lord Himself, and we are in Him.
JT Quite. We are “in Christ Jesus” and the position, necessarily, gives colour and dignity to my walk.
AAT The responsibility attaching to us necessitates the new state in the Spirit.
JT Yes. He goes on to say, “In order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit. For they that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh; and they that are according to Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit life and peace. Because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God; for neither indeed can it be: and they that are in flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed God’s Spirit dwell in you”. Notice it is “ye” here, christians characteristically. Therefore he puts all christians on a common platform in this — those in whom God’s Spirit dwells are not in the flesh.
ANW You get a remarkable expression in chapter 16 of this epistle, a man named Apelles, “approved in Christ”.
JT Righteousness is in view here in chapter 8. Firstly, “that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us”. Secondly, the Spirit is life in view of righteousness.. It is righteousness that is in view. Now it is quite clear to me that practical righteousness in this world is a great point with God — it is a point in His testimony. The judgment of Sodom would have been stayed if there had been fifty, or forty-five, or even ten righteous within the [p. 89] city, showing what righteousness is in God’s account; and I think Romans 8 brings it in. It brings in practical righteousness on the ground that sin in the flesh has been judged and I have the Spirit. So the law does not fall to the ground; but more than that, the Spirit being in the christian his body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit is life on account of righteousness.
JD-s Do you connect that with the thought farther on, “For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit”? That is the form the kingdom of God takes today. God established before-time righteousness; but He shows here how He works it out.
JT If we would go through the Scriptures with that in view, we should be repaid in seeing what a wonderful place righteousness has in God’s ways. And it comes out now in christians before its public manifestation.
JD-s It is really anticipating the time when righteousness will mark the course of things that will be established by God.
Rem The fact is every avenue along which God has worked, as long as it is connected with time, has righteousness in view. Whether in the individual, or the assembly, or the kingdom, we find, from the divine side, righteousness always in view.
JT Righteousness suffers now; but it will reign in the millennium; and will dwell in the eternal state. I think that is how it is set; but it is morally greater to see it in suffering than in any other position, and this chapter shows where it is found — in those who are “in Christ Jesus”, who have the Spirit.
Rem I suppose the thought of dwelling in eternity is that it rests; there is no further need for its [p. 90] exercise.
JT Peter treats of the subject of righteousness. He assumes that it is here in christians and regards it as suffering. Righteousness is suffering, and it will suffer; but he looks on to a time when it shall dwell.
JD-s What definition would you give for righteousness? There is no doubt that God’s object in the law was to secure righteousness, but righteousness by law failed because of inherent weakness in man.
JT “The righteous requirement of the law” does not really include the full thought of righteousness. This epistle develops the righteousness of God — that kind of righteousness, and I think the Spirit being given to the christian in view of righteousness involves a full answer to the righteousness of God.
JD-s The law was an indication of what God had before Him to secure.
JT I think John’s epistles develop practical righteousness. He begins with what God is, and says, “If ye know that he is righteous, know that every one who practises righteousness is begotten of him” (1 John 2:29). The one who practises righteousness is begotten of Him, that is the way John puts it. He traces it from Abel. Abel was a righteous man; his works were righteous and on that account he suffered.
BTF The new man goes beyond “the righteous requirement of the law”.
JT John’s epistles develop that he that is born of God is righteous even as God is righteous. The new man is “created in truthful righteousness and holiness”.
Rem I was thinking that, really, what came out in such men as Abel, Enoch, and Abraham exceeded in moral value the requirement at mount Sinai. What was required at mount Sinai was in accord with the divine mind; but not the full measure of it.
JT I suppose the gospels, presenting as they do the life of Christ, give us the full idea of practical [p. 91] righteousness. In Matthew 5:21,22 we have, “Ye have heard that is was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you ...”. He unfolded a system of teaching which would be law, embodying the great principles of righteousness; answering to this we practise righteousness according to God. The word ‘requirement’ here necessarily limits you, whereas with God it is a question of His rights in mercy — what He does sovereignly. It is God acting from Himself and according to Himself, in Christ. So the answer to that in the christian is, “He scattereth abroad; he giveth to the poor: his righteousness abideth for ever” (Psalm 112:9).
Rem It is more than a question of righteous acts: It would not do to limit righteousness to acts; it is a question of the moral being behind the acts. So seen in the Lord Jesus — “I delight to do thy will, O my God” (Psalm 40:8). There was a spring there whether He was doing or not, so to say. So we are brought under the light and sway of that which goes beyond the covenant of Sinai: the righteous acting of the believer, in the power of the Spirit, is a question of what comes out of the new nature.
JD-s In christians righteousness is not only demanded but produced.
Rem It is really the outcome of the divine nature.
JT “He that practises righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous” (1 John 3:7).
ARS Will you explain what is meant by, “When they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both” (Luke 7:42), and how God does it righteously?
JT The incident is recorded in Luke 7. In a passage preceding what you quoted, it says, “And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him” (chapter 7:29,30). That is, the righteousness of God was there in Christ — John bore witness to it — and Jesus Himself said, “Suffer it now; for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15). In saying that He submitted to baptism. Now, he says, the Pharisees and lawyers did not submit to baptism, so that the publicans and harlots would go into the kingdom of heaven before them; and the example is in a woman, who came into the Pharisee’s house and submitted to the righteousness of God — she had faith. The righteousness of God is, “on the principle of faith, to faith”. It was there in Christ in all its fulness; but the Pharisees and lawyers did not submit to it, they did not recognise Him who was there; whereas this woman did, by the manner in which she treated Christ — she wept, washed His feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. So the Lord sets forth His position in His speech to Simon, It was the expression of the righteousness of God. They were both on the same platform; but only one submitted. So He says to the woman, “Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace”. She had the faith. What would that woman be afterwards? What would she be in the light of our chapter? She would be righteous; and her righteousness would take the form, not of demand or accusation, but of forgiveness.
AFM True righteousness is based upon love to God and one’s neighbour; this woman would be found in a righteous orbit henceforth, as having affection for Christ.
ANW In Romans 13:8 we have, “Owe no man anything, but to love one another”. But in Ephesians 4:28, “Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour ... that he may have to give to him that needeth”. There seems to be an extra obligation resting on the man in Ephesians.
JD-s Righteousness is really the recognition of the relationships that God has established, either [p. 93] between Him and myself, or His creatures and myself.
Ques You could not be righteous apart from Christ?
Rem The law could not make us righteous, it was dealing with material that was hopeless, therefore righteousness cannot be apart from Christ.
WB The standard of righteousness which most of us have in our minds is too low; is that your thought?
JT I have no doubt it is too low. Our walk should flow from Paul’s light. “Arise, shine! for thy light is come” (Isaiah 60:1). It should be in reference to that. We were noticing yesterday that recovery from Babylon was not only to the Mosaic system; but also to David’s system. So recovery today is to Paul’s doctrine — it is to the full light of the church’s position with Christ in heaven.
WB So it is a mistake to limit the Lord’s life and ministry on earth to “the righteous requirement of the law” being fulfilled; it goes beyond that.
JT Whilst maintaining, “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled”, yet He said, “I say unto you”; He added to what the law required. He said, “Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:18,48).