READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (12)
[p. 154] READINGS ON THE EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS (12)
AFM What would you say is the object of these last chapters of this epistle?
JT I suppose, to apply the truth in a practical form to the saints in their varied relations, beginning with chapter 12. That chapter adjusts us in relation to one another, chapter 13 in regard of the government of the world outside, chapter 14 in regard of those who are weak in the faith; that is, there is consideration in the kingdom of God for the weak; instead of as in the world, the weak going to the wall, they are to be supported in the kingdom of God. In chapter 15 the Lord is brought in as a Pattern for us — One who did not please Himself. In connection with the weak ones, we are not to please ourselves. The suggestion of what Christ is in that way leads on to the apostle’s remarks about himself and his ministry. Chapter 16 is what you might call a letter of commendation. Chapter 14 is very applicable to the present time in view of questions arising which have to be settled with the Lord.
AAT What kind of questions?
JT Questions arising from government claims and such like. The authority of the Lord is emphasised in chapter 14 so that each individual involved is directly responsible to the Lord. Motives have not to be judged by others.
BTF We have care for each other in chapter 14 — the spirit of a brother, that is, care for the weak ones, as you were saying.
JT In the kingdom of God the weak are supported, in contrast to what is seen in the kingdom [p. 155] of men.
ANW I suppose the great difficulty today is to determine who are weak. What is this kind of weakness?
JT “Him that is weak in the faith”, it says. It does not suppose that his will is active. Scripture does not provide for that.
ANW The question is as to how you are to know whether the will is at work or not.
JT Evidently from the instructions referred to, the weak are assumed to be known.
WCR They appear to be actually weak here. It is really weakness, not will.
ANW The apostle is very careful not to link himself with them. He links himself with the strong.
JT “We that are strong”.
AFM I suppose it contemplates a Jew newly come to the faith.
AAT A gentile too.
JT I do not know about that. I do not suppose the apostle would make a provision for a heathen festival. The day of which he speaks would undoubtedly be a day accredited under the old economy. First of all, the thing is to determine the status of such a one as this, which the first verse does, “Now him that is weak in the faith receive, not to the determining of questions of reasoning”. He is not to be received to the determining of doubtful questions. He is not admitted into the counsels of the saints, he is not as yet qualified to judge of things.
WLP But he is in fellowship, is he not?
JT Surely; but you would not place him under obligation to judge — he has rather to be carried. I think that is the first thing to determine — the status of this man; he is classified as weak.
Rem The apostle condemns the Galatians for observing [p. 156] days.
JT When it became a recognised custom, then it was evil; but this is simply the matter of a man not being able to get beyond as to his conscience, hitherto recognised. He is unable to see that one day has no moral value above another day.
CAM You would say he was not a spiritual man. A spiritual man would be free.
AFM He would be marked by spiritual judgment, which was lacking in this case.
BTF You would say we get great principles in this chapter; but we do not get the same condition of things now.
JT Hardly, because days observed in christendom are heathenish in their origin, and I do not suppose the Spirit of God would make provision for them. This, I suppose, would refer to days recognised under the law.
AAT I have heard this scripture quoted to support people being received into fellowship who are weak, especially, when the ones in question were the children of the saints. We have heard much of late as to being sure that those who are received have on the best robe, and have the Spirit, and so on.
JT They ought to have the Spirit, I am sure; but it is quite obvious in christianity that the weak are not to be left out in the cold to look after themselves.
JB What is the contrast between the weak spoken of in verse 1 of chapter 14, and those in verse 1 of chapter 15?
JT I think it is the continuation of the same subject, only chapter 15 emphasises the obligation of the strong. Instead of stumbling the weak, you are to support them. As it says: “But we ought, we that are strong, to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves”. It seems to me, the point is to establish that in christianity, or in the kingdom of God, the weak are to be taken care of.
[p. 157] It would be a poor thing if we should leave weak christians to look after themselves; it would not be in keeping with the spirit of christianity.
WLP The main thing would be to support them.
JT As it says in chapter 15, “We ought, we that are strong, to bear the infirmities of the weak”. The opening verses of chapter 15 are really an amplification of chapter 14 in regard to the obligations of the strong. “But we ought, we that are strong, to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let each one of us please his neighbour with a view to what is good, to edification. For the Christ also did not please himself; but according as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproach thee have fallen upon me”.
ANW Is not the whole instruction addressed to those who are strong rather than the weak?
JT That is the point. It is the obligation of the strong. It is a poor thing if in christianity there is not care. The weak have to be cared for.
AFM Would you say a little more about the kingdom of God, in relation to chapter 14, as a sphere of protection for the weak?
JT What it is, is stated in a very terse way: “The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit”. That is what it is; but then, the thought of the Lord is enlarged upon. If you will observe, first it says as regards the weak: “Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own master he stands or falls. And he shall be made to stand; for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man esteems day more than day; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regards the day, regards it to the Lord. And he that eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he that does not eat, it is [p. 158] to the Lord that he does not eat, and gives God thanks. For none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself. For both if we should live, it is to the Lord we live; and if we should die, it is to the Lord we die: both if we should live then, and if we should die, we are the Lord’s”. Then, further it says: “For it is written, I live, saith the Lord, that to me shall bow every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then each of us shall give an account concerning himself to God”.
WB-t It seems to come in in very strong contrast to the general idea of the survival of the fittest. I was just wondering as to how it works out amongst us.
JT Certainly it is not the principle here of ‘might is right’. Here, the strong use their strength for the support of the weak.
WCR Is not the question of individual conscience brought before us? “Let not him that eats make little of him that eats not; and let not him that eats not judge him that eats”. So there is to be the recognition of one another’s conscience.
JT That is what I see at the present time. The Lord being brought in in such a prominent way, we have to learn to leave each other with the Lord in certain things, assured that the Lord is able to make the brother stand in regard of any weakness he may evince.
CAM The matter of eating and the observing of days would apply only in principle to us; it would refer to other matters really, would it not?
JT There are a great many things today which might be easily enumerated, which have to be left with each one involved, in the light of the Lord — that He will help each of us. Of course, no allowance for our wills can be made.
CAM That is where my difficulty comes in. You could not go on with a person, even if they [p. 159] were weak, if they were allowing what was wrong, could you?
JT One could not. Only, it is a question of helping him if you see his conscience cannot overcome a thing which he once observed. You would seek to help him — you would not judge his motives. You would be assured, if the Lord converted him, that He would take him out of that slough of despond.
ANW You might be quite right in enquiring as to whether he did it as unto the Lord.
JT Quite so. The test would be as to what he had before him in it.
WCR You would endeavour to bring his conscience up to the light, that he might be free.
BTF Is the weakness referred to here largely a point of the education of conscience?
JT Yes. The weakness refers to defectiveness as to the faith. “Him that is weak in the faith”. I suppose “the faith” there refers to the system of christianity. It is not that he has not faith in his soul; but he is not fully instructed as regards the principles of christianity.
AFM There are two things brought before us. First, the respect due to individual conscience and responsibility to the Lord; then, the protective care that the strong should exercise toward the weak.
JT Yes, and the position in which such a one is as regards the Lord. He rules over both the dead and the living. You could not go on without the greatest dismay and discouragement as regards the saints, unless you took that into account — that the Lord is ruling over the dead and living. As Paul elsewhere says, “I have confidence in you through the Lord” (Galatians 5:10). You could not go on otherwise.
WB-t I do not understand His ruling over the dead and [p. 160] living.
JT He has authority over both — those who have gone to be with the Lord are under His sway, just as they were when here in the body, and under His care too.
WB-t That was clearly seen on the mount of transfiguration, where two of them appear. You think it means then, not morally dead, but physically dead.
JT Yes, I think it refers to those physically dead here. “If we should live then, and if we should die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ has died and lived again, that he might rule over both dead and living”.
WB-t In regard to “the faith”, is it the thought of God bringing in His Man and disposing of the man after the flesh?
JT That is involved in it surely. “The faith” is a remarkable expression. I doubt if it could be used in regard of any other dispensation, because things are entirely on that principle now. If it is simply ‘faith’ it is a question of the state of your soul; but ‘the faith’ I understand to be the truth of christianity.
Rem “Whatever is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23).
JT But that is faith as to the state of your soul; but “the faith” is the system of christianity.
Rem “Follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart” (2 Timothy 2:22).
JT That is faith simply.
CAM “The faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 3).
JT That is “the faith”. “This is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith” (1 John 5:4). “Our faith” that is the christian’s faith — the system of truth held by faith in the saints.
JMcN Having faith would be, being fully persuaded in your own mind as it says in verse 5, “Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind”.
JT Surely, only the thing is that one should be fully initiated in all the principles of christianity so as to be in “the faith”.
Ques Could you substitute the word ‘truth’ for ‘faith’?
JT The truth is a different idea, but “the faith”, I believe, covers the whole system of truth that is held in the soul. If it is “the faith” it is not simply what is in a creed — it is held in the souls of men. “The law” was the term under which the old dispensation was referred to, whereas the new dispensation is “in faith”.
WB-t The distinction is maintained in John 17: “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth”. It is a different thought from “the faith” here.
JT The principle in connection with “the truth” is that it adjusts us. In the giving of the law, there is nothing said about man receiving it on the principle of faith, whereas on the day of the Lord’s resurrection it is emphasised throughout that the disciples did not believe. As if to say, aside from faith the dispensation cannot be inaugurated. The whole point in the Lord’s movements and actions on the first day after He arose was to establish faith. He upbraided the eleven as they sat at meat because they did not believe the testimony of those who had seen Him after He was risen. That was the reason why He upbraided them. As much as to say, If you do not believe testimony, the dispensation cannot be inaugurated. Even the apostles, although they were accustomed to seeing Him, were placed by Him in such a position that they must believe accredited testimony. Before the Lord appeared to the eleven after He arose, He is careful to hide Himself. He appears to this one and that one, all to put them under obligation to believe accredited testimony. They must learn to believe thus because that [p. 162] is the ground on which the dispensation is to be inaugurated — it is “God’s dispensation, which is in faith”.
WLP Will you explain that a little?
JT Let us look at Mark 16:5, “And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right, clothed in a white robe, and they were amazed and alarmed; but he says to them, Be not alarmed. Ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, the crucified one. He is risen, he is not here; behold the place where they had put him”. Then verse 9: “Now when he had risen very early, the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary of Magdala, out of whom he had cast seven demons. She went and brought word to those that had been with him, who were grieving and weeping. And when these heard that he was alive and had been seen of her, they disbelieved it. And after these things he was manifested in another form to two of them as they walked, going into the country; and they went and brought word to the rest; neither did they believe them. Afterwards as they lay at table he was manifested to the eleven, and reproached them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen him risen”. That is the way the Spirit of God brings forward this great point of faith. They had missed it. They did not believe all these witnesses; so I believe the point the Lord desired to emphasise in speaking to the eleven apostles was that the saints throughout the dispensation should accustom themselves to receiving accredited testimony. Now we have the Scriptures. The apostles all saw the Lord and Paul makes a point of the fact that he too saw Him.
WCR When the resurrection is in question, in 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle speaks of all those who saw Him.
[p. 163] JT Yes, he makes a great point of those to whom He appeared.
AFM Would you also add the testimony of the Spirit?
JT Quite, although there is nothing further said; the testimony is complete in the Scriptures.
CAM In 1 John we have three witnesses. Would you regard that as the testimony to be believed, in that way?
JT Quite. “For they that bear witness are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one”. “And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth”.
CAM Is not the weakness with us that we are not able to recognise the testimony of the Spirit?
JT Yes, I would say that He witnesses to the whole truth.
ANW A contrast in the character of the dispensation would be seen in John the baptist. He had a fit of depression in the prison, whereas the most precious testimony we have as to Christ in the present dispensation emanated from prisons. It is a dispensation of faith.
BP Why were miracles introduced at the beginning of christianity?
JT For those who believed not. The miracles were a witness to the power of God. As we read in Mark 16: “The Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs following upon it”. In the synoptic gospels miracles are intended to confirm the preaching, just as a bell on a church tower calls the people in. But John’s gospel is like what is inside after the people come in. John’s gospel gives us signs. You would not attempt to call a man a mile away by a sign, it would be by a noise, like the bell in the tower. To those inside, the signs signify something. So John gives us signs, and they [p. 164] are to lead us to have faith in the Son of God. Of course, the signs in John were works of power, but I speak of how they are presented.
AJD It says in 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10: “Ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; and to wait for his Son from heaven”.
JT They believed the testimony and turned to God.
AFM Those who receive this authentic testimony require no proof, do they? If you were asked to prove anything today you would have a difficulty, would you not?
JT Yes, you might; of course, the walk and ways of spiritual christians avail as testimony.
Rem “Blessed they who have not seen and have believed” (John 20:29). That is faith.
JT “The faith” is the system of christianity.
WCR “One Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Ephesians 4:5).
WLP It requires faith to be connected with “the faith”.
JT The principle of it is that faith is in men’s souls, and they hold the truth thus. The truth is held by faith, not as in a creed.
AAT Was it possible to be one of God’s people in the previous dispensation without faith?
JT Faith was in Abel and in all those who followed in his line, as we learn from Hebrews 11, but you do not find “the faith” referred to in the Old Testament.
JMcN It appears from verse 6, that one weak in “the faith” had “faith”.
JT At any rate he recognises the Lord, that is the point. As long as a brother recognises the Lord you have hope of him, although he may be defective.
WCR Verse 13 presents the obligation of the stronger ones: “Let us no longer therefore judge one another; but judge ye this rather, not to put a stumbling-block or a fall-trap before his brother”.
CAM And again the end of verse 15: “Destroy not him with thy meat for whom Christ has died”.
ANW The weak brother is not to judge the strong, and the strong brother not to despise the weak one. There is to be mutual consideration.
JT The point is that, although weak, he is a brother.
CAM Would you say that this is helpful at the present moment? In spite of all the difference of thought about a great many things, we can go on together in the light of this.
JT Yes. I think we can go on together in the light of this, although differing, provided we have the Lord before us. If we have the Lord before us, we can leave each other with Him. Still we should be always exercised so as to be of one mind.
ANW I think that is confirmed in verse 18: “For he that in this serves the Christ is acceptable to God and approved of men”. It seems to adjust it all in regard of Christ, God and men. Our exercise should be to be approved of by one another as well as by God.
Ques Would you be quite happy to have a brother in fellowship now who kept days and feasts?
JT No, not now, because these things have been exposed to us. But we have to put ourselves in the position of the saints at Rome in those days. Great consideration was required.
WCR I have heard you say that christianity is not like the governments of the world. They have immigrant officers at the ports who do not allow any weak subjects to enter, whereas, we have to take them in, care for them, and nourish them.
JT Our strength becomes serviceable in that way. If I have surplus of strength there is a good opportunity to make use of it.
CAM This chapter is the kingdom chapter, is it not? God’s [p. 166] kingdom.
JT It does not develop the truth of the kingdom. It only shows that in the kingdom of God provision is made for the weak. It is not the whole truth of the kingdom; it is said to be, “not eating and drinking; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Romans 14:17). So that the one who is in the kingdom of God is not going to have a difference with a brother over a matter of meat and drink.
CAM Where would you draw the line as to what involves fellowship?
JT Anything that would set aside what one might call the commandments of the Lord. “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me” (John 14:21). If the will of the Lord is thwarted in any way then you would raise the question as to fellowship; but this liberty is not contravening the will of the Lord, in fact, what the weak brother is doing is to the Lord.
JB In chapter 14 we have indicated what it is to be weak in “the faith”; but in chapter 15 what is brought before us is more as to how the strong are to help the weak, and get them into the good of “the faith”.
JT Chapter 15 sets Christ before us as an example: “For the Christ also did not please himself; but according as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproach thee have fallen upon me”. Hence, we have to learn, as in the kingdom of God, to bear the infirmities of the weak and, in doing so, we follow in the steps of the Lord — that is what He did, and it is thus that we please God. Chapter 15 pursues the subject until we reach the thought of unity. In verses 5 - 7 Paul says: “Now the God of endurance and of encouragement give to you to be like-minded one toward another, according to Christ Jesus: that ye may with one accord, with one mouth, glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another, according as the [p. 167] Christ also has received you to the glory of God”. The Spirit of God does not leave us under the impression that christianity is composed of disunited people; He never stops short in His aim of perfection. So if there be differences among the saints we are not to assume that these are justifiable; the reason of these is that there is weakness in “the faith”. But the aim of the Spirit is “that ye may with one accord, with one mouth, glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”.
AAT In giving an outline of the various chapters, you spoke of chapter 14 as being one which had special application today in view of the claims of the government. The questions that our brother has raised about drawing the line between what does not interfere with fellowship and what does is important; there is divergence of mind as to how far certain claims can be acceded to.
JT There is a limit beyond which we cannot go. I am only referring to general principles. We have to take account of things as they are, and have respect for individual conscience, in so far as there is no insubjection, that the individual has the Lord before him, and is not acting in self-will; he is doing what he has liberty to do before the Lord. We have to leave brethren with the Lord. But, as I remarked, the Spirit of God does not leave us with the impression that we have reached a perfect state of things, nor such as is altogether pleasing to God. At the same time, His aim is “that ye may with one accord, with one mouth, glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Therefore, we have that before us constantly, and, at every opportunity, would seek to adjust each other so that we might be strong in “the faith”.
The last chapter is very important although it may seem otherwise. It is important as commencing with a letter of commendation. The apostle takes occasion, evidently, of Phoebe’s going to Rome to write this letter, sending it by her, who is commended to the saints as, “Our sister, who is minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea”. And, in commending her, he is led on to send salutations to a number of the brothers and sisters in Rome. Thus serving, I think, on the one hand to indicate what a letter of commendation is, and, on the other hand, how it tends to strengthen the links that exist among the people of God in different localities.
AAT Would she have been received without this letter?
JT It is not simply that she should be received; but that she should be assisted as well. She is to be received worthily of saints. It says: “Receive her in the Lord worthily of saints, and that ye may assist her in whatever matter she has need of you”. So that she is committed to their affectionate care and interest.
JB She is a characteristic sister.
JT Yes. She represents the activity of the Spirit on the feminine side amongst the saints. She is said to be a “minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea”. It is remarkable that a woman should thus be designated.
AFM So that a letter of commendation supposes that there is something to commend in the person about whom you write. There was something substantial here!
JT In a brother or sister being commended to a gathering, having changed their residence, they are added to that gathering. What you are adding to the gathering is denoted by the letter.
Ques Is the character of Phoebe’s ministry given in verse 2?
JT “She also has been a helper of many, and of myself”. The point is, she did whatever was needed to be done. The word ‘minister’ here does not mean merely menial service; evidently she ministered to the needs of the saints.
Ques What is conveyed to us in the salutations — so many are mentioned by name?
JT The Spirit of God reminding us that He has His eye on each one of us. If the Lord were to single us out and tell us publicly what His estimate of us is, it would be very exercising.
JB What would be the difference between those “in Christ” and those “in the Lord”?
JT The thought is very much akin. “In the Lord” brings in His authority: one so designated is subject. “In Christ” would be that the person had that spiritual status.
Rem It is a kind of genealogy. It is not simply the Lord indicating that they are His.
JT We may regard it as a roll of honour. It is the Spirit of God showing us that every one is under the eye of the Lord, and taken account of according to spiritual merits. If you run down the chapter you will see the different shades of merit accorded. Prisca and Aquila come first. You will notice Prisca is mentioned first, and of them it says: “Salute Prisca and Aquila, my fellow-workmen in Christ Jesus, (who for my life staked their own neck; to whom not I only am thankful, but also all the assemblies of the nations,) and the assembly at their house”. I suppose this sister and her husband would be the most estimable couple in the whole of Rome. Then we have a brother mentioned simply as “my beloved”. “Salute Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the firstfruits of Asia for Christ”. That is all he has to say about him; and so on down the chapter we get different shades of spiritual merit pointed out.
CAM This is the apostle’s own thought about [p. 170] them.
JT He was really giving the Lord’s estimate of them. Being inspired, the passage would set forth the Lord’s estimate of each one named.
AFM Does the chapter afford us marks of a spiritual man, and show how he regards the saints — the facts about them, which should govern him in his prayers?
JT There are certainly saints who stand out prominently in your mind as identified with the Lord’s interests. One has constantly before one certain men and women who are especially identified with the truth and for whom we pray especially.
Pages 171 to 439. “The Assembly, its Order and Power”, Germany 1929, 1933 and 1935 (Volume 195).