THE YOUNG AFFECTED BY THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRIT
[p. 224] THE YOUNG AFFECTED BY THE PRESENCE OF THE SPIRIT
Acts 2:16 - 18; Exodus 12:26 - 28; Exodus 13:8,14
JT This verse in Acts 2 is quoted from the book of Joel, and it is in mind now because it carries divine thoughts as to the Spirit from the Old Testament and because these thoughts embody young people. “This is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel, And it shall be in the last days, saith God, that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and [p. 242] your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your elders shall dream with dreams; yea, even upon my bondmen and upon my bondwomen in those days will I pour out of my Spirit, and they shall prophesy”. The youth are stressed in this verse and, therefore, the verse has a peculiar application, the young amongst us being numerous and increasing; and it is thought that they should be reminded of the presence of the Spirit available to them through faith; that is, His operations are characterised by the use of young people. Old ones are just mentioned, but the reference is to young people, both men and women, or boys and girls. And then in Exodus we have this passage augmented by a reference to the questioning of the children in relation to the passover. It is said, “And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say to you, What mean ye by this service?” showing they take the initiative in questioning, and then in the next chapter in relation to the feast of unleavened bread, the Israelite was to inform his son. That is, the father takes the initiative to inform his son; not to leave it to him to gather up what he can, but to inform him as to the feast of unleavened bread. And then again in verse 14 it says, “And it [p. 225] shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this?” The change of the word from ‘children’ to ‘son’ is suggestive, because it would denote that the young are taken account of in chapter 12 as not mature, and in the sense of relationship in the family. But in chapter 13:8 they are to be informed first of all, and then they are to ask (verse 14), but viewed as a son. No doubt there is much exercise about the young as developing from childhood into boyhood, or to manhood or young manhood that they should be informed, not left to learn casually, but to be informed, and then that this should work out in their inquiring so as to get information.
CAM Do you take it for granted that because of the greatness of the Spirit’s world of things there will be inquiry? There is so much to be known.
JT They are quick to learn things and to ask about current, mundane matters, but what inquiry there is about the things of God is a question, and then how much information they get from us. “And thou shalt inform thy son”.
AR Were these features lacking at Corinth? They were not keeping the feast.
JT Just so. They were enjoined to keep it: “Let us keep the feast”.
WFK Why is it the last days? Is that the day of grace?
JT It is to mark off how the matter stands. John says it is the last hour in his epistle. The government of God has run its course pretty well. Christianity was in view all the time, but much had to be done in a rough way, rough work had to be done in the race so that the great thought of God should have scope; that is, in this dispensation, representing the great plan of God which He kept back, for “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing” (Proverbs 25:2). He kept it back. There were types [p. 226] which could only be understood by keen inquiry, but the history of the race had well nigh run its course before Christ came or the Spirit came. “The fulness of time was come”. It is an important matter that we are not at the beginning of time. We are at the end of it, the millennium being the final feature of time, so that I suppose that is what the prophet means. “And it shall be in the last days, saith God, that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh”.
ANW Why is it that there seems to be so much that is on the party line and questioning whether a person has the Spirit or not?
JT This passage would contemplate that the incoming of the Spirit would carry with it the concrete marks or fruits. “I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy”. It had marked effects. They are not simply in the way of enjoyment as in Romans: the love of God shed abroad in the heart by the Spirit, but the work of God in intelligence and prophesying.
AAT How does that work out? I can understand a young man getting up in the assembly and giving a word, but here the daughters are prophesying.
JT That is to be noted. The persons mentioned are really all young: bondmen and bondwomen would suggest rather young people. The elders are alluded to, of course, but it had a concurrent effect when they are prophesying; not simply having the joy of the love of God in their hearts, but intelligence working. Prophesying is not simply asking questions, but conveying to those who hear, conveying God; the idea of God is impressed on those who listen. It was, I suppose, that the incoming of the Spirit should be in this way marked by young people; instead of being light and frivolous and careless, they are prophesying.
AR Would Philip’s daughters be like that? They prophesied.
JT Just so. I suppose they are mentioned to show what the influence of a devoted man in his house may result in. Much is made of Philip personally, not as a husband or a father, but as a preacher. He would have something to do with souls as a deacon, but he certainly became very pleasing to the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit took him away, raptured him. He must have influenced his household in that spiritual, feeling way.
RWS Speaking practically, you can see that some amongst us nominally have not got the Spirit — some young people. They would be at a great disadvantage and so would the assembly. It has been pointed out in ministry in Luke 11 the Lord, as having the locality in mind, is urgent that if they, the parents, being evil know how to give good gifts to their children, how much rather shall the Father give the Spirit to those that ask Him.
JT That is a remarkable passage. It has often been commented on in this connection; and the Spirit Himself coming in as at Pentecost, taking on the young people is remarkable; not that it is said to be so historically in the Acts, but it is enough to have it quoted by Peter from Joel, the Spirit of God Himself quoting it really.
ANW What does Joel mean by “all flesh”?
JT I suppose it would point to the millennial state of things. Flesh is still to be owned of God not in the moral sense, but in the physical sense. It is so with ourselves. Our members are taken on by the Spirit.
CAM That seems to be an interesting thing in connection with what you said about the young people that it is in the last days, and you were stressing that things are reaching a sort of climax. All flesh as such seems to be wearing out, but in [p. 228] connection with the Spirit there is all this newness of life.
JT Conditions of blood and flesh are still in mind for use. In our case, of course, it is only provisional and in the millennium it will be only provisional. Flesh and blood will be used, but here it is just flesh.
CAM Would you connect this with the world on the other side of the flood — Noah’s world? The judgment was really imminent for these people, was it not?
JT They were in the last days.
CAM I thought that Peter speaking represented a hope that would awaken them to another world of things.
JT Did you say in Noah’s day?
CAM I thought Peter took the line of Noah. He refers to it in his epistle. I thought in the beginning of Acts perhaps you could regard the fact that he was speaking of the bow in the cloud and God’s covenant, whether that would connect with this other world.
JT The Spirit coming in, as in this chapter, had in principle another world in mind, which has taken form provisionally involving the assembly. That is, God would carry on witnessing to the human race through an organisation. The Spirit comes into a recognised state of things; not to continue as it is now. It is just provisional. The organism will continue. That is, the body of Christ and the assembly viewed as the vessel of administration will continue in the assembly in the millennium from above, but during the present dispensation it is an organisation involving our condition in flesh and blood. It is God’s way to witness in our condition, and to take men, humanity, up at its best. That is, as young. The children are young and energetic and they have their faculties fresh, and the Spirit is intimating that [p. 229] He is ready to use them. The youth is a beautiful side of humanity.
AR The word is “pour out”. “I will pour out of my Spirit”.
JT It is a remarkable form of expression, involving liberal giving, free-giving.
JTJr Would there be the need of having the children tied like the ass and then the colt before the Lord could take them on?
JT The gospels help as to that. God has endowed parents with authority. In fact, that exists even before they are converted. He has endowed parents with authority, and He is, I think, intimating in the references to that incident that they should use it, and that they should use it early.
JS Is it the reign of grace?
JT Yes, quite so. The youth are supposed to be ready. That is, there is something of God, from the very outset among men, women, and children, even before the sovereign work of the Spirit. When the Israelites went out of Egypt they were to borrow things or ask for things inclusive of clothing and utensils and gold. Well, these were there. And so at Jericho the silver and gold and vessels of copper and iron were to be taken by the Israelites, which would mean that whatever there is of God set here governmentally in the race is to be used. Therefore, Christianity did not come into a chaotic condition of things. If there were not government here, there would be chaos. But God has put government here in view of coming in directly in the reign of Christ. All the previous exercises and experiences of men pointed to that period — the fulness of time — and reckoned that whatever was of God would have been employed. God would honour any restraint by parents even although they are not converted; any respect at all for Him and His ordering He would stress, I think, in unconverted families. Sometimes [p. 230] you see restraint of children and the like, and God will show that He respects that even although they may be unconverted yet.
FNW Does it work out in a normal Christian family that if God-given discipline is established from the beginning apologies do not need to be made later?
JT It is what is of God. If the government in a country in any way employs these principles good and well, in the schools and the like. God will honour that insofar as it is effective.
ANW That word ‘restraint’ is the word God uses in the matter of Eli’s difficulties with his sons. He did not restrain them, God said.
JT These things were taken from the Egyptians, which must have been used; and they were enjoined to be taken at Jericho which is suggestive — that whatever there was of the race augmented as it was by the special laws and principles and ordinances given by the Jews, God respects it whatever it is, the outcome of it, and He takes it on when He begins the reign of grace.
WR-n What would you say about the young man that came to the Lord in the gospels and said he desired to follow Him, and that he had kept all the commandments except this matter of selling all that he had?
JT That is it. There was one thing he lacked, and unfortunately he did not go in for that, but then some did go in for that. Why not? God would honour whatever it was.
WR-n How would you view him? As a result of wrong teaching?
JT Quite so. He was well instructed in the law, but there was one thing he lacked. That makes it easy. The Lord is surely implying He is respecting what he had. There is one thing lacking. “Sell all that thou hast and distribute to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in the heavens, and come, follow me” (Luke 18:22). The Lord is not discrediting what he had.
RWS How would you name that one lack?
JT It is Christianity. I would say it is Christianity in the principle of it — the giving away; selling and then giving and the compensation above, and the following of Jesus in the meanwhile. It is really the way that is spoken of, the way of God. All the education under the government of God is good from the very start.
AAT I notice in Galatians 5 there are nine fruits of the Spirit mentioned, but prophecy and visions are not mentioned.
JT I think this verse implies there was a good deal preceding. They are ready for the Spirit, for prophesying. God is taking account of what there was there. They were ready for the Spirit and useable like the utensils come out of Egypt. Where did the utensils come from? Were they trained in the schools? Moses was brought up in the schools. He was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians. You might say, Did that qualify him to lead God’s people? Certainly not. But still there was something there and it was not all for nothing.
AAT When he sat by the well he learned something.
JT He learned very quickly. He killed a man a few days before, but now he is changed. But he had right thoughts in his heart in using violence.
ABP When Abraham’s servant saw Rebecca it says he marvelled at her. Would that suggest the appreciation that the Spirit has of a preparatory work?
JT She belonged to a family that was under culture; she belonged to Terah’s family, the line of Shem. “Blessed be Shem”. However far back you go, if you go back one half-dozen generations, that grandfather and grandmother were blessed of God.
There is something there. “Blessed be Jehovah the God of Shem”. You must get some results from that.
CAM Prior to that the statement is used that God’s Spirit would not always strive with men. Since that day, Shem’s time, there seems to be this result of government.
JT Yes; government was ordained in that way particularly at Babel. The nations were divided and surely that would imply restraint. The barrier of language, the difference of language would be restraint.
WFK The Spirit warring against the flesh — how does that fit in here?
JT Well, that is the state, the mixed condition in the believer. Galatians would refer to the mixed conditions in the believer, that is especially noticeable in young believers. These are contrary one to the other, so that you cannot do the things that you would. The Spirit is stronger than what is in the flesh, what is in man. It is a victorious matter. We are now dealing with what was before; what exists before the Spirit comes in, what exists in government. If God has put it here He intends it to be used, and wherever it is used He honours it.
ABP Would you say that in a sense the governmental action in regard to the malefactor prepared the way for his confession? “We indeed justly, for we receive the just recompense of what we have done” (Luke 23:41). Evidently the acceptance of government even in an extreme case like that seemed to pave the way for blessing.
JT Quite so. Where did he get the word ‘justly’? A thief would eliminate that from his vocabulary, but he carried it with him; and many a young person has carried thoughts of God instilled in his mind that stand him in good stead in later years.
JS He vindicates the Lord. “This man has done nothing amiss”.
AC Is it not a fact that in certain parts of the world government is more directly in the fear of God, if you could use that expression, than in other parts?
JT You take the Roman system when Christianity began. They had remarkable laws. Their laws have come down to us. God had honoured them; the Lord Himself preparing the way governmentally for Christianity. The Greek system prepared the language to be used by the Spirit of God. These are like the vessels that came out of Egypt and like the gold that was in Jericho.
FNW Had that principle of government worked out into Cornelius so that he is a pious man and so pleasing that the Holy Spirit falls upon him and others as he listened to the word?
JT That is a good connection, because it is said his prayers ascended up to heaven; not simply that they were heard but they went up there and they were a memorial; a memorial from a Roman officer kept up in heaven before Peter met him at all. That shows that God is working all the time for one end. There is no lost time with Him; everything is for a purpose and works out for good.
ANW That is why the word ‘spoiled’ is used in connection with the Egyptians; carried over as a trophy.
JT They spoiled the Egyptians, too. The question might arise, How would that be? The meaning would be that the world is rendered weaker and Christianity gets more power. There were houses built for the midwives, the like of which were not there before. They were to be seen there.
JTJr God took Saul of Tarsus out of the world. He took him out of the realm of the world system, did He not? That weakened the world system, taking the gold in that way.
JT Very good; just so; taking whatever was there. He was brought up at the feet [p. 234] of Gamaliel.
APT The Holy Spirit is given to all those that obey, Peter says. Does that enter into this young people matter? Then the injunction in Ephesians 6:1 is, “Children, obey your parents in the Lord”. Would that enter into the reception of the Spirit?
JT Most certainly. That refers back to the giving of the law in Exodus 12; the first commandment with a promise. You say commandments are irksome, but are promises irksome? That is the way it works out. That it may be well with you. Does that mean in heaven? That means in your ordinary affairs. God will make it well with you and your days will be long on the earth. That is a good scripture to bring in here.
AAT The old man seems to have some place.
JT Quite so. The stress is on the young, it is quite clear. “And it shall be in the last days, saith God, that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your elders shall dream with dreams”. That is the only reference to age. But then it goes on, “Yea, even upon my bondmen and upon my bondwomen in those days will I pour out of my Spirit”. That is remarkable. It is your sons and your daughters and your young men, but God says, My bondmen. Where do they come from? What brought that out?
ABP The passage is transposed in quoting. The old men are mentioned first in Joel, but the young men are mentioned first in the quotation.
JT That shows there is improvement from the Old Testament. I mean, the New Testament puts things where they ought to be. Much was made of the old in the Old Testament. In Genesis hardly anything is made of the young except Joseph, but in the New Testament it is the young. The Lord Himself was a young Man. John the baptist was a [p. 235] young man, and all the apostles as far as we can see were young men.
JS Bringing the gold to light?
JT Just so.
AR “We will go with our young and with our old” (Exodus 10:9). Not the mature first, but the children first.
GVD You have been speaking of what develops out of God’s governmental dealings, but in 1 Corinthians 10 Paul introduces what was favourable for Israel, that they all drank the same spiritual drink; yet God was displeased with the most of them, and that is brought forward for our admonition upon whom the ends of the ages have come. The side of God’s favourable dealings — what would you say about that?
JT That would not include the young. They would have to be at least twenty years in the wilderness before that would come in on the young. All the young ones that came out of Egypt went into the land. The judgment fell on the older ones. That must have been on toward the end of the wilderness — those that were numbered, six hundred and three thousand people, were all over twenty years of age at that time, at Sinai. They were the ones that fell in the wilderness, not the little ones.
ANW He uses the word ‘fathers’, “all our fathers”; I thought that was perhaps worth noting. “All our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea” (1 Corinthians 10:1). It rather impresses the line of the elder.
JT As regards the ages it says, “But your little ones, of whom ye said they should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land that ye have despised” (Numbers 14:31). The little ones that they thought would be a prey are going in.
JAP Do you not think a feature that those of us in this country have to guard against is independence?
[p. 236] The young man in Mark evidently refused to sell his possessions to retain his independence. Does that hinder the Spirit’s work in our hearts?
JT If he has not got any, his aim is to get some so as to be independent. That is in the mind of the natural man, if he has possessions to retire and be independent. It is a common word used. Well, it belongs to the youth.
RWS You spoke of the young man in Mark. There are two of them there. One is in chapter 14 who followed the Lord: “And a certain young man followed him with a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men seize him; but he, leaving the linen cloth behind him, fled from them naked” (verses 51,52). The other young man would be in chapter 16.
JT You had something to say about that?
RWS You mentioned the young man and I judged it was the young man sitting on the right in the white robe. There are two here and they seem to be in contrast.
JT I would not say there is so much of that, because there is something — he had something; the linen cloth. He was badly set up, in want of raiment and seemliness, but there was something in him that found him in those circumstances. It is a very irregular and unseemly and humbling experience, but still I would not think there was not something there in a man being found in such a case at that moment. It was when the Lord was arrested, was it not?
RWS Yes; He was in the garden, was He not?
JT The Lord was in the garden of Gethsemane; yes. He had just been arrested. Well, the young man certainly was not at a football game. He was there. There is something there. The suggestion is that it was Mark himself that is in mind; who knows?
ABP Do you think there is the subtle suggestion [p. 237] in it that Mark went into the service with pure motives, but he had the official title of a servant without having the sense of the seriousness of what he was going into?
JT I think the word ‘motives’ applies, as covered in the linen. It was not enough. Of course, that is quite common, that you are not just taking account of things as you should, but still there is something there; and the second young man is the full thought that he has in mind to set out in his gospel. The second young man is a man of purity in a white robe and he is at the right, at his best.
FNW Is there an interesting contrast to the linen cloth being cast about his body in Samuel, a boy girded with a linen ephod?
JT He did not know Jehovah, but he had the right thing on. There was no discrepancy at all. When he got light from God he was ready for it.
TEH The second young man was clothed in a robe. There would be a formative work in his soul. A linen cloth is not made into a robe, but there is the suggestion of it.
JT There is the suggestion of it. Rahab had the flax. There is the suggestion of it, but only in the making.
AAT Did you want to make more of the bondmen and the bondwomen?
JT You connect that with young people, but they are God’s. God calls them His. That is to be noted. The others are your sons and your daughters, and your young men and your elders, and then it says, “yea, even upon my bondmen and upon my bondwomen in those days will I pour out of my Spirit, and they shall prophesy”. The word ‘even’ there indicates there was a modification entering into the matter. Bondmen are not just the same as sons and daughters, but the possessive pronoun is ‘My’. God has such. Well, how did they become that?
[p. 238] Are we not to look back in history and see how God prepared for that condition? So they are ready for the incoming of the Spirit.
AAT That would be the apostles and disciples who were ready for the Lord?
JT Others came in. What God began with after sin came into the world is continuing and operative. It is what is of God, and it has not lost its value because Christianity has come in — a better thing.
RWS I was going to ask whether the selective way in which the Holy Spirit came upon men of old would emphasise this scripture that He is coming upon so many; upon all these His Spirit is to be poured. Would not a godly Israelite envy one upon whom the Spirit came? It was an unusual matter in the Old Testament.
JT Just so. Samson is a good illustration. The Spirit of God moved him in the camp of Dan; not when he went away on a holiday, but in his own home quarters.
GVD Would it be right to say that the transition from what is ours to what becomes God’s is the result in the first place of carrying through the truth of baptism? I was thinking of Hannah. She lent Samuel to the Lord.
JT She is a good illustration of what we are saying. I thought of it when it was mentioned of her bringing up the little coat. She is contemplating growth in him, but that had developed into a linen ephod. He became priestly, but not from his own inward motives, but evidently from some external influences or teaching that God honoured, because he did not yet know the Lord; yet God began to tell him the most extraordinary things to make him fit for a care meeting. Jehovah told him about Eli’s house and the conduct of his sons. That should be told in whispers to old brothers, but God told it to him, [p. 239] a young man.
JAP In verse 13 it says, “But others mocking said, They are full of new wine”. Why is that?
JT That is a remarkable thing. I have often thought of it. Peter addressed the mockers. Why did he do that? It says, “But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and spoke forth to them (that is, the mockers) Men of Judaea, ... these are not full of wine, as ye suppose”, etc. He gave a good reason for it, too; it was only the third hour of the day. Very remarkable. I think the whole position would be to teach us of levitical principles; how Levites carried on at the beginning; the way they began in speaking in taking advantage of public circumstances.
JTJr I suppose they were full of the matter, evidently, causing great feeling in them. There was something different about these men in the way they were speaking of these things. Is that not what Christianity is? The new order of things is stimulating.
JT They talk about it. The mockers said one thing; they said, “They are full of new wine”. But others had said other things; you get a mixed multitude. If you preach on the street you will get a mixed multitude. The question is, Am I skilful enough to use that fact? If you stand up to preach now you will get a Jewish crowd probably, especially in New York. Paul on Mars Hill used the situation. Well, I thought it would be worth an hour of conversation among the brethren about this matter of the young people, and how they are treated in Scripture in this remarkable passage, in the inauguration of Christianity; that they are mentioned so prominently and brought in from the Old Testament, and then go back again to the Old Testament in these two chapters in Exodus, how the children are alluded to in chapter 12:26, “And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say to you, What mean ye by this service? that ye shall say”, etc., and then in the next chapter, which refers to the feast of unleavened bread especially it says, “And thou shalt inform thy son in that day”. Inform him. See to it that he gets this light or information about something. And then the next passage is that he asks. “And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say to him”, etc. He inquires about it. No wonder. Because if he did not get anything to eat it would not be very pleasing to him. Why should this be?
ABP The informing by the parent seems to be historically before the inquiring by the son.
JT Quite so.
FNW Is it important for both the father and mother that they should take the initiative in approaching the children on these great matters of God, and the questions will follow?
JT That is just what I thought in suggesting these scriptures. There are so many fathers here, and it is a very opportune time to bring up this matter. The Holy Spirit needs them all. That is the idea.
ANW The inquiry in chapter 12 is because they keep the service. You must keep the service to have the questions raised by the children.
JT “What mean ye by this service?” Just so.
RWS Did you suggest earlier that the change from children to son suggests spiritual growth?
JT Clearly. Children would include all that sit at the table down to the youngest. They are all there; they are all included in the inquiries, but the son is singular. He would be grown up in the midst of them. The oldest one, we will say, is entitled to be regarded as a son, which involves maturity, and he inquires. His father first of all tells him and then he inquires.
AR Is the passover kept continually? This [p. 241] service would not be once a year as it was then. It would be all the time, would you say?
JT Just so. That is the way it is alluded to; feast of unleavened bread — both phases of the feasts. First, “For also our passover, Christ, has been sacrificed; so that let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with leaven of malice and wickedness, but with unleavened bread of sincerity and truth” (1 Corinthians 5:7,8). That is the part of it that the young people would not care so much about keeping. Unleavened bread has not much taste; nothing to stimulate much. Why is this? Well, it is a good thing to inform them first about it and then see if they will ask.
HMacG This does away with young people’s meetings and the like, if we have the truth of this.
JT Just so. It is at the table. This is contemplated at the table because the feast was held in each house.
ABP When Lot spoke to his sons-in-law his words were like idle tales. Was that because he was positionally wrong? He had light but was not really living up to it.
JT Just so. He carried it a good way when he had unleavened bread in his house, but did he keep it for a special occasion or did he make it for the angels as they came, or what? Anyway, he is the first one that is mentioned as having it.
FNW Do questions concerning the passover and the feast of unleavened bread involve the stones in the Jordan and Gilgal on the other side?
JT That contemplates a higher line of truth in Canaan.
WFK “And they shall prophesy”. Even young men shall take part in the prophetic meetings.
JT It is remarkable that they are supposed to be ready for this service. First it says in verse 17, “I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy ...” And then the last reference is to His bondmen and bondwomen. “They shall prophesy”.
AR What are the features to be seen where the feast of unleavened bread is being kept? It is kept all the time.
JT The reference in 1 Corinthians would mean that it is kept all the time. “Let us keep the feast”. Being Christians and knowing what the antitype means, we know that you never can give up keeping it, because it is a question of sincerity and truth and the absence of leaven, what inflates. It is in the light of the antitypical teaching that one would say it is kept all the time, because it was not really kept all the time in Israel. It was once a year.
JS Is it significant that they did not maintain the feast householdly in the wilderness?
JT Quite so. They neglected much.
RWS It assumes that the father is near enough to Jehovah to give a correct answer. It says, “And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say to him, With a powerful hand Jehovah brought us out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage. And it came to pass, when Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, that Jehovah slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of men and the firstborn of cattle: therefore I sacrifice to Jehovah all that breaketh open the womb — being males; and every firstborn of my children I ransom. And it shall be for a sign on thy hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes, for with a powerful hand Jehovah brought us forth out of Egypt”. So that we who are fathers must be near to God to have something to say to our sons.
JT A son would understand something of power. Great triumph was involved in the answer. In the previous one the answer is, “It is a sacrifice [p. 243] of passover to Jehovah, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt when he smote the Egyptians and delivered our houses”. There is not so much the suggestion of power, for a young man or a son ought to know something of it. “I have written to you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abides in you” (1 John 2:14). The answer in the second place when he makes inquiry ought to appeal to a young man as to power, because Mark’s gospel has power in mind. There is the suggestion right through Mark. I think he answers to the mighty men of David.
JTJr “This kind can go out by nothing but by prayer and fasting” (Mark 9:29). In that connection also would the household matter connect with prophecy — the power in prophecy?
JT The young boy there was a lunatic really. This kind of power was needed, and that is the reason why it seems that the idea of power is connected with the answer in chapter 13. The father says, “When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go” (very few young persons have not got a little stubbornness) “that Jehovah slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of men and the firstborn of cattle; therefore I sacrifice to Jehovah all that breaketh open the womb — being males; and every firstborn of my children I ransom”. It is the male side that is in mind, of course, in both the passover and the feast of unleavened bread, but it is the question of power against the stubbornness that is natural with the youth.
JAP Paul says, I am writing “concerning his Son (come of David’s seed according to flesh, marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead)” (Romans 1:3,4). Is that what this father is telling his children?
JT Christ as marked out Son of God in power. [p. 244] Quite so.
ABP Is there an age with our children when we should expect some definite work and exercise about taking their place? Is it right to feel that there should be something more definite after the age of twelve than before?
JT That is what I understand. The Lord has a lead in that. “Wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?” (Luke 2:49). He was truly a Son in intelligence there.
AR It is while they are keeping the feast apparently that the son wants to know about it.
JT The answer in chapter 13 contemplates power in taking God’s people out of Egypt and Mark is that. It is the kingdom of God come in power, and Christ at the right hand of God is the evidence of that. The young man is at the right hand of the sepulchre. It is power; all of which has a voice, I am sure. The war appeals to young people. The idea of power is so stressed in aeroplanes, battleships and tanks. Everything is an expression of power, whereas God has power, and the youth are to be an evidence of that. “I have written to you, young men, because ye are strong” (1 John 2:14).
DMacd In relation to reaching the age of twelve, some have felt that our children should sit behind; others have felt that they should still remain with the father at the breaking of bread. What would you say about that?
JT I think when they come to the age of understanding they should sit behind. There is reproach attached to the position in sitting behind. Why are you sitting behind? Well, it is because you either are not fit for the front or you have no heart for it. That is what I would say. I think persons who have an understanding of the position ought to sit behind. There ought to be a confession of where they are.
APT The teaching then of these two scriptures in chapters 12 and 13 is, as you were saying, an [p. 245] advance. Not only that one is conscious of God’s righteousness in the blood preserving me in chapter 12, but then in the next chapter delivering me out of the whole realm in which the enemy is against me. Do you think young people need to get established more in this great feature of the truth, to get delivered out of all the pressure of sin and the world? As you were saying, and I see it in my children, they are greatly taken up with the power of the aeroplane and all that kind of thing — all man’s power. They need to be delivered out of that and see the power of God in resurrection.
JT That is very good. “And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say to him, With a powerful hand Jehovah brought us out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage. And it came to pass, when Pharaoh stubbornly refused ...” The father might look around to the eldest boy in the house: You know you are stubborn. So that it goes on to say, “when Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, that Jehovah slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of men and the firstborn of cattle: therefore I sacrifice to Jehovah all that breaketh open the womb — being males; and every firstborn of my children I ransom”. The man is not saying ‘my sons’; but “my children”. Household baptism applies to all the children, but the matter of power involves the son. He knows what it means. And then it goes on to say, “And it shall be for a sign on thy hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes, for with a powerful hand Jehovah brought us forth out of Egypt”.
FNW It might be said that if you talk too much to the children about these things they will turn away. Deuteronomy 6 indicates there is a great deal of talking about these things.
JT Deuteronomy greatly enlarges on these [p. 246] previous levitical books. It is what Moses says. Paul says about marriage, I am saying certain things to you of my own mind. I am saying them to you because I am an experienced man. Deuteronomy is what Moses says, so that he enlarges greatly on things that you get in Leviticus and Numbers and Exodus, and it is most interesting if you can follow him, because he is an old man, an experienced man, and a man who hears God. He goes into the sanctuary and God speaks to him. So that Paul says, and he only says it in regard to the matter of marriage, I am only saying this myself but it is my judgment and I have the Spirit. He is stressing that he is a spiritual man, so that it is important to come to men who are experienced in these matters. Sometimes a man who is just speaking from experience has more force in certain circumstances than if he has a word from God. He is speaking from experience. As the Psalmist says, “I have been young, and now am old” (Psalm 37:25). He has authority in that way.
ABP Jacob says, “I know, my son, I know” (Genesis 48:19).