OBEDIENCE AS PREPARING FOR THE GLORY (1)
[p. 41] OBEDIENCE AS PREPARING FOR THE GLORY (1)
Exodus 12: 28; Exodus 15: 22 - 27
JT This book ends with the tabernacle as the residence of the divine glory and movement consequent; all is linked with obedience, things being done as divinely directed, great stress being laid on this in the closing chapters. So it seemed as if we would be helped to trace the thought of subjection, obedience to the word of God, to see how the glory links on with us as thus subject. We are said to be sanctified “unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ”; so the standard is high, and in order that we should reach it, it is necessary to begin at the beginning of the instructions which we may link with the verse in chapter 12. It is to be remarked, too, that Exodus is ministerial. Obedience, of course, is found in Genesis, but the ministerial side is not stressed there, but it is in Exodus, and the great minister himself, Moses, is subjected to much in the way of discipline to bring him to the attitude of subjection to the will of God. What appears at once in the exercise of his ministerial service is that the people were affected. First, in chapter 4: 28, it is said that: “Moses told Aaron all the words of Jehovah who had sent him, and all the signs that he had commanded him”. They are affected by the ministry of Moses and Aaron, and then in chapter 12: 21 - 28, we have an epitome of the instructions Jehovah gave Moses as to the passover. Instead of giving them verbatim he epitomises — the principle of ministry, abridgment and presenting things briefly — and then we are told that they worshipped. “And the people bowed their heads and worshipped. And the children of Israel went away, and did as [p. 42] Jehovah had commanded Moses and Aaron; so did they”. We have the idea of ministry and the moral authority attached to it. So that the effect of divinely accredited ministry in Moses and Aaron is that it causes the people to worship in chapters 4 and 12, but we have added in chapter 12 that the children of Israel went away. That is what we might dwell on first. They went away. Moses and Aaron were not present. They received the instruction and went away and did all they were told to do. That is the principle that I think is laid down in this book, obedience existing even when we are away from the eyes of the Lord or the eyes of the brethren or the eyes of the ministers. It is the principle of obedience that continues even though there is no one watching or looking after us directly.
WJC What bearing has the head bowed in worship? What does it signify? Does obedience flow out of that condition?
JT I think that is right. God is brought to us in the ministry by the Spirit, and what is said in the ministry in chapter 4 causes our hearts to be affected. Then again in chapter 12 the same thing is seen only we have added that the children of Israel departed and did what Jehovah had commanded Moses and Aaron, “So did they”. The Spirit of God is stressing that; as left to themselves they are obedient.
AJD Are you looking at Moses and Aaron as ministering servants?
JT That is what they are.
HH The ear is connected with ministry, “He that planted the ear, Shall he not hear?” Psalm 94: 9.
JT I suppose the ear is the organ of reception of the word of God and is the root of obedience. Obedience is the outcome. Is that what you have in mind?
HH In these last days we need to listen to what the Lord is saying. The voice of the Lord now is a [p. 43] matter of ministry. We are to hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
JT “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches”.
JS Initially, does hearing come first?
JT I think so, “faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God”. So that the ear is anointed. The ears of the priest were anointed. We have it constantly in the Scriptures, “Hearken, O daughter”, Psalm 45: 10.
JS Would receiving be another step in subjection? “They received the word with all readiness of mind”, Acts 17: 11.
JT Just so. Receiving, we are told, “the engrafted word which is able to save your souls”, James 1: 21.
AR Does this fit in with Romans 6: 17? The apostle in writing to the Romans could say, “but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you”. The form of teaching delivered to them was obeyed from the heart.
JT Form of teaching, yes. Paul’s teaching.
Ques Is there the thought of subjection in the Lord Jesus Himself?
JT Well, He says, Jehovah opened His ears morning by morning. You marvel at His saying that, but He did. He was not rebellious.
JS It speaks of the Son becoming subject in 1 Corinthians 15.
JT The principle right through is that the assembly is subjected to Christ, and the Son shall be subject to Him who is all in all. The principle runs right through into eternity. We are to be learning now.
AJD Is it seen in the Lord at the age of twelve? He became subject to His parents.
JT He was subject; He always was. He is seen in the temple hearing and asking questions.
[p. 44] You can understand how the Lord would listen to the doctors and hear what they said, and ask a question now and again. You can understand how it would arouse interest in the temple, and then He is subject to His parents.
GF “He learned obedience from the things which he suffered”.
JT A very touching thing. The point there is not that he was ever ignorant in the moral sense of things, but being God He could not learn obedience. As becoming Man He learnt it experimentally through suffering.
HH Would you not say Moses listened to God himself? Would that not come in, too? Would discipline be necessary to take in divine thoughts?
JT I suppose he represents that great feature. The number of times that is alluded to is impressive: “the Lord spoke unto Moses saying”, that would mean that he had acquired an ear, because God spoke oracularly. Perhaps we are not much accustomed to that, but that was how He spoke to Moses. The principle of it is in Numbers 7: 89, Moses went in to speak to Jehovah and “he heard the voice speaking to him from off the mercy-seat which was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubim”. That was the appointed way of divine communications; that is what is called oracular. One would require an ear to understand, so that one should hear aright. In hearing, Moses was responsible to convey exactly what was in the mind of God. So that he would have to have a careful ear to hear. I am glad you brought that up for he represents the great principle of hearing oracular communications.
RAL Samuel was not accustomed to hearing.
JT Quite so. This is important. We were speaking of that the other evening in Brooklyn; that children, however well cultured they may be by their parents and laid on the altar for God’s service,
[p. 45] the time has to come when they have to have an ear to hear what God says directly to them. Lest we think unduly of this boy, Samuel, it is said that “he did not yet know the Lord”. One evidence was that he thought Jehovah’s speaking was Eli’s speaking. He mistook God’s voice; he thought it was just Eli speaking, and God was about to reject Eli. It is rather discrediting to him that he mistook Jehovah’s voice for Eli’s voice. An important word for us, for we are apt to think God is speaking when He is not, and to think man is speaking when God is speaking to us. So we may miss much by not being accustomed to oracular speaking, “He that hath an ear, let him hear”. It is that kind of an ear that can hear.
JRH Reference has been made to Romans. Would you say we are defective in the teaching of Romans if we are not obeying the commandments?
JT I think we shall see that Romans is a great basic epistle; it is written in the most authoritative way. Paul is very pronounced as to his apostolic authority both in that letter and in those to Corinth. It is a question of ministerial authority which we are all prone to disregard. Some will disregard the thing that is said and others will disregard the person who says it. It is an old device of the devil to discredit the person, “All who are in Asia ... have turned away from me” — not from the teaching; that is, it is personal. Those who had turned away from Paul would soon discredit his ministry; they would soon begin to question what God said if they turned away from Paul.
AHP Is that why obedience is stressed?
JT It is obedience of faith in Romans, “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord”, 1 Corinthians 14: 37. That is to recognise the things themselves.
[p. 46] HH The Lord supported Paul. It was not just that Paul was feeling things himself. The brethren turned away, but the Lord supported him in the seven letters to the assemblies in Asia.
JT Quite so. All in Asia had turned away. The Lord says to John, Write them seven letters.
SMcC Does not the heart, as suggested in Romans 6, obedience from the heart, play an important part in this? It says of Lydia, “whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul”, Acts 16: 14.
JT Not simply the things spoken, but spoken by Paul. There it is the speaker and the speaking.
SMcC And the heart enters into it, not the mere outward bending of the head like the Pharisee.
JT Obeying from the heart, yes. Now this ministerial matter is well worth our consideration, so that we should be balanced in discerning what is of God. Paul very graciously and humbly said, ‘Even if you are not ready to receive me, certainly do not set aside the commandments, because what I write are the commandments of the Lord. Give attention to them anyway; you are to do what is right even though we be reprobates’. It is important that the ministers and the ministry should be identified in our minds. Because it is not a bit likely that God would take up men and use them unless they are morally in the good of what they are speaking of. It is not a bit likely that He would support them unless they are right morally. So that it is well to keep the two things in our minds.
Ques Would Samuel be a good example of one who moved along these lines?
JT I think he is. He did not yet know the Lord but Jehovah revealed Himself to him by the word of Jehovah. It was not merely a vision, it was an intelligible matter, God revealing Himself to His servant; and then we are told that it was known from [p. 47] Dan to Beersheba that he was a prophet of Jehovah, and the confirmation of it is that none of his words fell to the ground. The words are identified with the minister. It affects the mind, the intelligence; that is what is needed.
ABP Would you say that the repetition of the names: Samuel, Samuel; Saul, Saul; Martha, Martha; indicates the intense interest that the Lord has that we may hear?
JT I think that is right. Joseph told Pharaoh that the double repetition is that the thing is established by God (Genesis 41: 32). Samuel has an established place in heaven.
RA Would the term the Spirit of God uses, “Children of Israel”, speak of subjection? It is not the children that murmur, it is the people.
JT I think that is suggestive, children being the relationship to which learning is attached.
AR It is like a conference; Moses is the man who is doing the speaking, bringing forward the mind of God; the brethren leave and go to their houses and localities and work the thing out.
JT Quite so. They went away; that is where the test comes, as to whether the things are carried out.
WB-w Would John on the isle of Patmos be an example of good hearing? He heard a great voice and he took it down very accurately in the book of Revelation. Would that not illustrate proper hearing on the part of a minister?
JT I think that is good. It is said that he changed his position five times throughout the book, as if he would have to hear things from a different viewpoint in each instance. He evidently missed nothing.
CAM When the children of Israel went away they did as Jehovah commanded Moses and Aaron. Would it not be right to feel that in going away from something that is the word of the Lord it must of [p. 48] necessity be that a living impression is made on the soul; is not that largely bound up with the ministers?
JT I think it is. The ministers are very responsible. The epitome that Moses gave here in these verses 21 - 28 is seven verses in length. The previous part of the chapter is twenty verses. So that Moses reduces the instructions from twenty to seven verses. He gives the idea of ministry, that you are able to condense, and not only so but to add things. The minister is supposed to be spiritual, not merely repeating what he hears, but putting it into his own mould, and it pleases God, when the man is in the Spirit. So that he tells the people in seven verses what Jehovah told him in twenty verses and adds certain features besides. Then the people worshipped when he finished, and went away and did as Jehovah commanded Moses, not merely what Jehovah commanded. We hear it said often that it does not matter who says it, but it does matter. It is what Jehovah commanded Moses and Aaron. They are being signalised. The lesson for those of us who minister, or attempt to minister, is to put the thing rightly, not merely the repeating of words but presenting something that we have ourselves.
SP The apostle in 1 Corinthians 2: 13, seeking their adjustment, speaks “not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit”.
JT Quite so. “That the excellency of the power may be of God”. It is Moses and Aaron that God has taken up. People say, What does it matter? But it does matter. Paul says, “That by me the preaching might be fully known”.
CAM Is it not important that the thing comes through men, or through a man?
JT Quite so. It is a ministry of authority. Miriam and Aaron said, “Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us?” Numbers 12: 2. This point is important because God is not going to be diverted. God has great pleasure in His vessels; they are His own handiwork. He has pleasure in what they are doing. He loves variety. He shows us that He has saints in different localities and He can speak through them. Paul says, “The Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city, saying that bonds and tribulations await me”. What does it matter whether in cities or in fields? But it does matter; God is stressing what he has in cities. It is the temple character of things, not mentioning any names, but emphasising what He has in every city, the means of speaking by the Spirit.
AHP He says “Enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do”, Acts 9: 6.
JT Quite so. He went into the city, that was the word, “and it shall be told thee what thou must do”. It is a remarkable thing to be put under obligation, to be sent into the city and to do what he hears in the city.
EP It says they “went away”. I was thinking of Paul’s words, “as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence”, Philippians 2: 12.
HH Hence the importance of following on what Moses was saying here. If we get a defective start we carry our defects with us. What comes next as to killing the passover was to be rightly understood by the saints, and that was the result of listening to what Moses was saying.
JT Paul makes a point of getting the thing right, exactly as it is intended. In 1 Corinthians 14: 6 he says, “And now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I shall speak to you either in revelation, or in knowledge, or in prophecy, or in teaching? Even lifeless things giving a sound, whether pipe or harp, if they give not distinction to the sounds, how shall it be known [p. 50] what is piped or harped? For also, if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself for war? Thus also ye with the tongue, unless ye give a distinct speech, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye will be speaking to the air”. I think we ought to observe all that. Those who minister should speak plainly. They are to be intelligible and I think that those who are ministered to should see that they get the right thought. Do not go away with a wrong thought. It is a most mischievous thing; people go away and say a thing was said and perhaps it is something erroneous. Something that was not said at all that is being carried away. It would be very serious if they took up a wrong construction on this great matter of the passover.
Ques Would you say that effectual ministry would be on the line of what we have in Nehemiah 8: 8?
JT It comes into what we are saying just now, if we do not hear one another it is good to say so because if anything is of God it is worth hearing.
AR I was wondering if it was of interest to note that this word which comes from Moses and Aaron has a bearing on, and the effect of adjusting, the saints in their houses. Is there not a great test in this, if a word comes from the minister about what is going on in my house, whether I will go home and adjust my house in relation to the ministry?
JT Yes. It says here, “And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say to you, What mean ye by this service? that ye shall say, It is a sacrifice of passover to Jehovah, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt when he smote the Egyptians and delivered our houses”. All that is very significant. The household principle is stressed in Exodus and this point before us is of great importance, getting things accurately and then identifying them. You say, They come from God. Yes, but we are to identify them with the persons [p. 51] through whom they come. God attaches great importance to His vessels: “He is a chosen vessel unto me”. He has pleasure in Paul in all his ministry. Some might say, We would rather hear someone else, but Paul says, “That by me the preaching might be fully known”. God is not giving him up.
AJD That is what would be authoritative.
JT Paul, knowing that the Lord had much people in that city, determined that they should be taught the word of God for a year and six months. It is coming through Paul. It is authoritative morally as the word of God and then there is the person used. He is divinely qualified. He had the ministry and the ministry takes character from him.
JS Luke gives his authority for writing his gospel; he was accurately acquainted from the origin with all things (Luke 1: 3).
SMcC The tendency at Corinth was to nullify the ministry by discrediting the minister (2 Corinthians 10: 10).
JT Quite so; that was the way the enemy attacked at Corinth. They certainly did discredit the minister: “his bodily presence is weak”. They could not soon get rid of the ministry, it had had too much effect there, but they aim at discrediting the minister. You can understand how that would affect a person listening to him.
HH They did not know what Paul had heard in the third heaven. It coloured his ministry. A brother’s ministry is coloured by what he knows.
JT It would have entered into it. It would affect him. Hence the need for coming into the sanctuary, getting into the presence of God for the ministry. You have an outline, but entering into the presence of God about it will give character to it. You are able to abridge yet give enough, sufficient to affect people. This instruction in the previous twenty verses has been broken up by the Spirit of God, “We know in part, and we prophesy in part”.
[p. 52] It is well to see that we should learn to be brief and concise in what is said. Moses is concise and yet he adds features that you do not have in the earlier part. He speaks about the hyssop and the basins, the vessels in which the blood was to be contained. All that is very significant. Why did he bring this in when Jehovah did not say anything about them? That is the power of ministry, because the Spirit of God being here in the minister you get thoughts from Him yourself.
CAM It is remarkable about that; that is the proper way to amplify things. Do you not think this is emphasised all through the Acts of the Apostles, the way those men are moving?
JT So that in this connection Jehovah says to Moses, “Who hath made man’s mouth?”. If God made that wonderful organ, has He not pleasure in it? He has! He has pleasure in the speaking. Whether the minister is speaking to others of God or whether he is speaking to God of Himself, God loves what comes through man’s mouth.
CAM That is emphasised all through the Acts of the Apostles. I was thinking of what is brought before us in the end of chapter 15. It says that Judas and Silas were themselves also prophets, and then it goes on to speak of Barnabas and Mark.
Behind all these personalities is the background which God knows; we have to keep our eyes on that. Do you not think so?
JT Quite so; because heaven has part in these meetings, I mean spiritual meetings. Heaven is intensely interested, and has part in them, and history is made in heaven in all of these meetings. God has His vessels, every saint here is interesting to God. Everything that is said in subjection to the Spirit, God has His part in it.
AJD Are these meetings an evidence of the love of Christ [p. 53] for the assembly?
JT They are a provision for the assembly, so that He ascended on high and gave “some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers”. They are all of His own handiwork. He gave them, the assembly is endowed with them, those persons.
HH They are the evidence of the work of the Comforter. The gatherings of saints, like these, provide an opportunity for the Holy Spirit to add to His work in relation to each one.
JT I think they are peculiarly in relation to the Comforter. The word ‘Comforter’ is the same as the word ‘Advocate’ in the epistle. “Jesus Christ the righteous”. This is a very important thing for us at these meetings. He is taking care of us down here. One who is alongside of us, in complete charge of matters. What sanctity, what dignity it affords to us! How we should comport ourselves in what we say so that all is in the power of the anointing. “He that establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God, who also has sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts”. “For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen, for glory to God by us”. Think of that ‘us’, what it is in the mind of God! It is to bring out, first, the dignity of the brethren, that is, they are God’s. He has sealed us and marked us off as God’s; then, they are rich inwardly, they have in their hearts the earnest.
Rem “Remember your leaders ... imitate their faith”, Hebrews 13: 7.
JT That is the past leaders, remember them, but there are the present leaders, “Obey your leaders and be submissive; for they watch over your souls”. Submission as to those who have to give account. It is all one thing whether past or present.
Rem The principle of obedience and subjection [p. 54] runs right through.
AJD The elders are addressed here.
JT I thought we should see that it works on to the glory, God honouring that principle right through this book.
AR I was wondering if it is not important to see that the carrying out of this word that Moses is giving is done by calling the elders together.
JT Yes, quite so. They represent the intelligent, responsible, experienced element in the locality.
CHH You were speaking of God taking pleasure in our speaking. The deaf man’s ears were opened and “he spoke right”, Mark 7: 35.
JT The relation between the ear and the tongue is remarkable. The Lord groaned about that; such a terrible condition in that man! He could not hear or speak right. The Lord groaned and lifted up His eyes to heaven. He is so profoundly affected, that man is so deranged under the power of the devil. He touched the tongue and we have the Lord’s own, exact articulation in that word, ‘Ephphatha’. It is the actual Aramaic word. It is ever to remind us of the importance of this matter; the Lord’s own accents are brought down to us in regard of this great matter of hearing and speaking.
Rem When Paul spoke of himself to the Corinthians he said it was foolishness for him to do so. Is it not very humbling that the Lord sees fit to call this to our attention now?
JT They had compelled him, they were so opposed to him, these leaders.
CCS It speaks of the hearing and the speaking, “Bow down thine ear, and hear the words of the wise, and apply thine heart unto my knowledge. For it is a pleasant thing if thou keep them within thee; they shall withal be fitted in thy lips”, Proverbs 22: 17, 18.
HH “Obey your leaders, and be submissive; for they watch over your souls as those that shall give account”. It says further, “Salute all your leaders, and all the saints”. The thought of leaders is important.
JT I am sure it is.
HH There are the deceased ones, those gone before, who have been a very great help; but we have leaders now, not just one but many, and we have to give place to them.
JT We have to be submissive. The word ‘submissive’ is important because we have arrived in the history of the world at a democratic period, when the idea of leadership and authority is despised and set aside. So that we do well to see the trend in the world and to avoid it, to set ourselves against it. The point is to be submissive and obedient even to one another. Submit yourselves to one another, so that the principle comes right down to all the saints, that I am to be submissive to the brethren. “The children of Israel ... did as Jehovah had commanded Moses and Aaron; so did they”. We shall come to this in another setting later.
WB-w In chapter 12: 50 you get that repeated.
JT Quite so.
JS The principle of obedience is being seen now in them.
JT Samuel says to Saul, “To obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams”. The question of obedience arises in regard to the setting of Marah, that is, it is a question of state, state is being experienced. God brings about circumstances in our histories that affect us; they are intended to affect us and create a soil in us for His intent, whatever it may be. I believe that Marah here is bitterness, it creates a state in the brethren for divine impressions. So that it says, “The people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink?”. The waters were bitter. “And he cried to Jehovah; and Jehovah shewed him wood, and he cast it into the waters, and [p. 56] the waters became sweet. There he made for them a statute and an ordinance; and there he tested them. And he said. If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of Jehovah thy God, and do what is right in his eyes, and incline thine ears to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the complaints upon thee that I have put upon the Egyptians; for I am Jehovah who healeth thee”, Exodus 15: 25, 26. I was thinking of the state that is occasioned by the bitterness, God rolls in discipline upon us and causes us to taste what Christ tasted in death. You feel things and you are now ready not only for the commandment, but for the statute and the ordinance. The stress is laid upon the commandments, “Let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord’s commandment”, 1 Corinthians 14: 37. It is a fixed matter now. I thought we might see that in this section we have fixed things in the way of commandments, statutes and ordinances. They can be always appealed to, not only a word for the moment but a word that can be appealed to at all times, a word that goes through for all time, the divine word must go through. One is affected by the bitterness of death, the bitter waters, and how they have become sweet through the apprehension of Christ. His going into death was a question of the will of God, “Not my will”, the Lord said, “but thine be done”. The wood was “cast in”. He entered into death on that principle. That is to be a fixed matter; it is not to be optional at all. You say, I do not think so, or, I do not see that. But there are things which are there, God has put them there — right principles — and it is for us to see that they are fixed.
AR We can only arrive at them in the measure in which we understand Christ here in manhood.
JT Exactly. Now we have Christ in manhood in the wood. We shall have Him more so in the [p. 57] manna but here it is the wood. Why should it be wood, and why should it not have been seen earlier? It is God calling attention to Christ as if not discerned by men; He is there and God calls attention to Him. He is casting the wood into the waters.
SMcC Does that not call into activity another sense? It is speaking in Exodus 12 but in our chapter here it is showing (chapter 15: 25).
JT I think it does. We have these two things, speaking and showing; and in Genesis 22 Jehovah showed Abraham the mountain. He did not mark it on the map for him. We are shown a thing as we reach it and as we are ready for it. The Holy Spirit showed that the way into the holiest was not yet made manifest; not only what is stated abstractly, but what is shown. Until Christ became Man there could be no entrance into the holiest; the way was not made manifest. So the wood was there; it does not say God put it there. God showed him the wood and he cast it into the waters and they became sweet. He knew what to do, he was not told to cast it in. The minister is there, knowing what to do.
EP Would that fit in at all with the second epistle to Corinth? Paul’s exercise in relation to death and the thought of the dying of Jesus being brought into it?
JT Quite so.
EP Is this an additional thought to Exodus 12? It is not simply the commandments of the Lord but something that would reach the heart.
JT Exactly. This word ‘cast’ is to be noticed. Moses cast it in, as if Moses understood what to do. That was what happened. It was stressing God’s will. These things are mentioned to create an impression. The ministers knew what to do.
HH There is yielding in the way of obedience. In the appreciation of the things of God, things are,
[p. 58] so to speak, sweeter to us. Death is still a bitter thing but where there is acceptance of the will of God and yielding the ear to the commandments of the Lord it is taken up in a way that is for God’s pleasure.
JT The thorn in the flesh was sent to the apostle and he besought the Lord thrice about it, but the Lord says, “My grace suffices thee; for my power is perfected in weakness”. So Paul says, “Gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me”. That is the thing here, it is accepted.
AR Is the idea that in the minister bringing forward this thought of Christ in humanity, it is to affect the saints now so that Christ is seen characteristically in all of us?
JT That is the thing, to bring out this casting in by the hand of another. The Lord was absolutely at the will of God as in Gethsemane. He did ask that the cup might pass from Him, “Not my will, but thine be done”. The will of God is fixed so that we might “prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God”. “Most gladly therefore”, I think there is joy in the acceptance of the death of Christ for He has been in it; now you are in company with the Lord (”planted together in the likeness of his death”) when this happens. “There he made for them a statute and an ordinance and there he proved them”. Now we should be immune from the complaints that are put upon the Egyptians. They are judicial, God accentuates them. There are terrible diseases, morally, amongst men and how are the saints to be immune? Backbiting, debating, envying, strifes, hateful and hating one another, in the world; God accentuates these things. They are diseases from which you will be immune in recognising fixed principles and abiding by [p. 59] them.
EP Do you think that each difficulty or crisis the Lord is pleased to pass us through should be an occasion of a statute, a recognised principle?
JT Every crisis where the Lord has His way a fixed principle is established so that a landmark is reached. You get that constantly in Scripture. So that that can never be opened again. Abiding by that we are preserved; it is a fixed thing.
SRMcC Did these complaints overtake the Corinthians because they did not recognise the commandments of the Lord?
JT That is the idea. The sort of complaints the world suffers from were creeping in at Corinth. That is abroad today in the religious world.
HH “I am the Lord that healeth thee” (Exodus 15: 26) would indicate a change effected in the Lord’s people.
JT How often you see it! Many of us here have been through these things for the last forty or fifty years. As we revert back to them we see the change that came about as God gave victory, a complete change takes place and we see His will prevail. The diseases are gone.
Ques You regard the moral diseases worse than the physical?
JT God accentuates them, diseases that arise from the working of our wills. God makes me to feel that it is a disease and it is judicial. Our poor brethren who have ignored these crises are subject to these diseases, those who have departed in these crises. It is a most sorrowful thing.
Rem A wonderful example in connection with Peter is that he could subsequently write of “our beloved brother Paul”. Showing the disease was checked and that his constitution could throw it off.
JT I think that is good. Certainly there was a disease at Jerusalem. Peter went up there, after he saw Cornelius, and you see the state they were [p. 60] in; some were Pharisees. They contended with him that he went in to eat with the gentiles, and they contended with Paul and Barnabas too, when they went up. The same disease was there; and I believe it went on until Paul went up there before he was in prison. There is not a word said about the saints lending any help to him at that time.
CHH Would not a statute have to be clearly established, based on Scripture? We could not look back to what valued servants had written about certain things. A statute would have to have its foundation on Scripture.
JT Quite so. When a statute is made it is God manifesting that the thing is scriptural. Something has come out and it is a fixed principle; we did not have it before. We have arrived at a landmark, at something we have not arrived at before.
JRH Have you in view the happy unity amongst the brethren accepting divine principles and seeing them as set forth in the Lord Himself?
JT That is what happens, “Most gladly therefore”. There is happiness where divine principles obtain. God is with His people; there is a happy state of things, and we are immune from diseases. Take, for instance, the Galatians, who were diseased; legality had come in. And so at Corinth, they were diseased with pride and rivalry. “I am the Lord that healeth thee”. As we set ourselves to take up the attitude of dependence and subjection for the carrying out of the will of God, we are immune from these things.
Ques That happy unity costs us something, does it not?
JT And so it runs on, “By the which will we are sanctified”. In that subject condition we are immune from these diseases that God has put upon [p. 61] the Egyptians.
AR If we are going to make progress in the wilderness, this is the first lesson to be learned. It is the first, is it not, after crossing the Red Sea?
JT Quite so. There is a fixed state of things in the statute and ordinance. The statute spiritually is a great fixed principle. Now you are impressionable. The Lord says to the people, You have suffered; you have tasted the bitter, and sweet waters; you have been brought into accord with Christ. Now you are ready for a fixed order of things, and christian fellowship depends on a fixed order of things. There are fresh things coming in all the time but it is a fixed order of things.
ABP The statute and the ordinance divinely established in 1 Samuel 30 seemed to issue out of a crisis and there it was in direct opposition to the opinion first expressed. I wondered if that shows a statute issuing from a crisis.
JT Just so. The first opinion was expressed by the sons of Belial. We shall give every man his wife and children and let them go. Nothing to eat or to wear; but David says, that will not do at all. David sets up a statute, a fixed order of things. David says, Those that remain behind with the stuff, are to share alike with those that go down to the battle. A very comforting thing which really enters into meetings like these, because we are apt to forget our own meetings, to neglect our local settings in attending these meetings. If the Lord is deprived of His proper service while we are away, He is not getting any gain by our presence here. We ought to bear that in mind, that those abiding behind by the stuff share alike with those that go out.
EP What is the thought of an ordinance?
JT A statute is a great fixed principle, but an ordinance is subordinate to that, something that is less extensive. A statute is usually a greater and wider thought.
HH [p. 62] As our brother was saying, it is early in the wilderness. The wood cast into the water, would that not suggest the Lord’s supper, so that in our local settings we would desire to see all those who belong to the Lord moving in relation to this?
JT There is a fixed order of things now in the Lord’s supper. I believe the casting into the water of the wood would link up with Hebrews 10, “by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ”. 1 Corinthians brings us into accord with that. That brings Christ in as entirely in accord with the will of God. “We being many are ... one body”, 1 Corinthians 10: 17. I believe that fixed statutes and ordinances would bear much on the Lord’s Supper, what supports our fellowship.
AR Do you think that would be worked out by chapter 14 and possibly the idea of special collections as a fixed principle seen in the epistle to the saints at Corinth?
JT Quite so. There are things that are fixed as attaching to assembly service publicly, but when we come to the spiritual side we look for freshness all the time, but there are public things that stand.
GF When the Lord said, “This do in remembrance of me” (Luke 22: 19), was that a command?
JT “This do” is a request, but certainly I would regard myself as lawless if I did not do that. It has moral obligation attached to it. It is a request of affection by the Lord, but it is obligatory upon us.
CHH Would 1 Corinthians 11: 24 make it a command?
JT “The things that I write to you ...” (1 Corinthians 14: 37), one great idea as included in the epistle. 1 Corinthians is a great statute enacted to govern us in our public position.