OBEDIENCE AS PREPARING FOR THE GLORY (3)
[p. 87] OBEDIENCE AS PREPARING FOR THE GLORY (3)
Exodus 24: 12 - 18; Exodus 34: 29 - 35; Exodus 35: 20 - 29
JT The subject is subjection, or obedience, as seen in this book and its relation with glory, or the relation of glory with it. We had Chapter 12 yesterday morning. It was pointed out that Exodus is the ministerial book. Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers but particularly Exodus, so that what is seen developed for God in type is through ministry. God uses qualified persons to convey His mind, calling for subjection to what is said, an ear to hear and to obey the commandments of Jehovah through Moses and Aaron. So that in chapter 4 we have the people worshipping Jehovah in that connection, the ministry being effective, and in chapter 12 likewise. In addition to worshipping in chapter 12 the people departed from Moses and did exactly as God had commanded through him, meaning that the idea of obedience was not simply carried out in the presence of the mediator but as having departed out of his sight. The idea of obedience was carried into their homes and into their ordinary positions. In chapter 15 we have the principle of a state being developed in the wilderness, an impressionable state through discipline. The brackish waters of Marah cause complaint; that is, the bitterness of death was tasted by the people and Moses was shown wood which he cast into the waters, and in that way they were made sweet. The experience of bitterness and sweetness, the sweetness occasioned by the fact that Christ is understood to have been in death, having tasted death fully, as it is said, “for every thing”, Hebrews 2: 9. The people tasted it also and in that way are brought into correspondence with Christ. So that we have a [p. 88] statute and an ordinance by Jehovah, implying that at this stage of a believer’s progress he is able to take account of fixed principles and to abide by them and to be immune consequently from governmental afflictions such as God put upon the Egyptians. Then in chapter 19 they are brought nigh to God and said to be three months out of Egypt. There is now more extended experience than at Marah; they have gone a step further. We are told that they pitched in the wilderness and they encamped before the mountain. They had come from Rephidim, having gone through all that experience and now they are in the presence of the mountain. Jehovah proposes that on the ground of obedience they should be to Him a holy nation, a kingdom of priests, a great privilege proposed on the ground of obedience. The idea of a covenant is included in chapter 19. They are to commit themselves to a covenant, which they did. This chapter (24) was also touched on. The covenant is ratified and it will be observed that the word ‘judgments’ is added here, that is, in verse 3, “And Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the Lord hath said will we do”. They are now put into writing, and he “built an altar under the mountain, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel”, as if now, in this committal to the covenant, we are to have the exercise of love. The brethren are to move on in love together. The chapter is full of that to bring out affection and patience. The volume of blood is put into basins then sprinkled on the altar and the people, and on the book also, as in Hebrews 9: 19. The whole position is ratified by blood in fulness.
It may be noticed now in this chapter that the idea of going up is proposed, not only for Moses, but for Moses, Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of [p. 89] the elders of Israel. It should be observed that it is simply the idea of going up in verses 1 and 9, but when we come to verse 12 to the end, the word ‘mount’ or ‘mountain’ is very frequent, occurring seven or eight times. As far as I can see, it is not mentioned in connection with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and the elders going up. It is mentioned in connection with Moses’ going up. That is, the idea of place is stressed in connection with Moses, but the going up is all that is stressed in connection with the others, which the Lord may help us to understand at this time.
JST Would you enlarge a little on the thought of judgments which you were suggesting?
JT I think we are progressing, as was remarked yesterday. The subject is progressive. We find the word ‘judgments’ in the beginning of chapter 21, “Now these are the judgments”, or ‘fixed ordinances’ it says in the note. In chapter 19 it is, “If ye will hearken to my voice indeed and keep my covenant, ... These are the words which thou shalt speak”. In chapter 20 we have the actual ten words and then in chapter 21 the word “judgments”, or ‘ordinances’, which runs on, I suppose, to chapter 23, various laws, and then in chapter 24 we have, “Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah, and all the judgments”; that would be inclusive of the intervening chapters between chapters 20 and 24, more obligatory than what is stated in chapter 19. So that the burden is not lightened, but the people are willing; they accept all unqualifiedly, and then everything is written down as if the thing is fixed, a sort of covenant or contract. Then there are the twelve pillars and the offerings and the basins, pointing to the overwhelming testimony of love in the death of Christ. Alongside of this is the thought of ascension, not exactly to a place, for really we do not enter our place on high until we are translated. But there is the [p. 90] principle of ascension in assembly service, and Christ has entered into the place which I think is what is in mind in the verses read.
CAM Do you think in that way the matter of judgment coming in between God’s word about their going up and their actually going up would show that every question is settled prior to going up?
JT I think that is the meaning of it, and we ascend with clean hands; there is no unsettled question behind us. You cannot think of an unsettled matter above, any disregard of the will of God. Things are to be done on earth as in heaven. As in heaven we are viewed as entirely according to the mind of God. The thought of ascension is to be observed and Moses’ going up to a place, as it is said, “Jehovah said to Moses, Come up to me into the mountain, and be there” (Exodus 24: 12), as if pointing to the present place of Christ, the Mediator on high.
Ques Would the seventy represent the whole of Israel placed on the ground of responsibility?
JT I suppose so; viewed in that way the elders are representative of the whole.
HH You were possibly thinking of Psalm 24 when you spoke of ascending with clean hands. “Who shall ascend into the mount of Jehovah? and who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath blameless hands and a pure heart”.
JT Quite so. That is just what I was thinking about.
EP What bearing has the Hebrew servant on all this? I was thinking of your reference, “These are the judgments thou shalt set before them”.
JT Would it not be the one who loves, taking the lead? The Hebrew servant is the first one to say, “I love”. So that we have the principle of keeping the commandments set out in Christ. We have leadership in the Hebrew [p. 91] servant.
EP Would it correspond at all with John 13: 1, “Having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end”?
JT That is right. He was going to the Father; He is the leader. So that although chapter 20 contemplates “thousands of them that love me”, we have only one man saying he loves and showing that he loves. It is the way of love in chapters 22, 23 and 24, set out in Christ.
HH That is very helpful. Love enables us to fulfil the law, does it not?
JT There is no other way, love is the fulness of it.
HH The Hebrew servant accepted the committal. He would not go out free. His master had given him a wife, she had given him children, but he plainly said he loved his master, his wife, and his children and he would not go out free. He had accepted the commitments. Would that not be so in connection with the covenant; our hand is on the table in committal to all?
JT So you can see how the glory shines in Christ. Psalm 19 is the glory: “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handiwork”; that is the first part of the psalm where Christ is spoken of as the Sun, as the “bridegroom coming out of his chamber and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race”. It is the glory in the heavens; but the second part of the psalm has to do with the earth, the law and the ordinances, when Christ becoming Man took all this up. There is a complete circle of glory in this psalm, the first His personal shining out in the heavens, the second in a moral way here below in Jesus.
CAM The glory is under His feet in the psalm. You would say it is not only above, but the glory is under, too.
JT Exactly; the glory down here in the second part of Psalm 19 is the shining out of the glory in a [p. 92] moral sense in Christ. So that John, in looking upon Jesus as He walked would see glory in that walk. When he saw Him coming to him he said, “Behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”, John 1: 29. That is one sacrificial glory, and then “looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the lamb of God!” (verse 36). He became attractive to John’s followers.
AJD What about the glory that John contemplates? He contemplated the glory, “a glory as of an only-begotten with a father”, John 1: 14.
JT That is a higher glory, how He was with His Father. It is the glory of family relationship. That was contemplated by the disciples.
AR Is that why there is this volume of blood in this chapter. It is not from sin-offerings, but from burnt-offerings. Does it suggest the glory of the Person that has been slain, Christ here in perfection for God?
JT Burnt-offerings and peace-offerings, quite so. They are delightful. Delightfulness enters into the thing, these burnt-offerings and peace-offerings. Peace-offerings bring the saints into it.
AR I was wondering about the idea of youth, representing freshness. There is freshness now seen in the saints corresponding to what was seen in Christ.
JT Well, the youthfulness is freshness and vigour of life; that is the idea. It is not the priestly side exactly, but rather youthfulness and persons wholly subservient, youthful persons.
CCS Would you say that the thought of the Hebrew servant coming in here would fit in with the Lord’s words in John 14: 15, “If ye love me, keep my commandments”? What He was enjoining upon His own was found livingly in Himself.
JT Quite so. It has been remarked, “Having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end”; that is the spirit of the Hebrew servant. But then He is going away, and He is exercising what you may call parental affection towards them. There are three kinds of love; there is the ascending love to the master and horizontal love to the wife (for the principle of the wife is equality in that sense), and the descending love to the children. In John 13 it is descending love: “By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves”. That is the thing in quality amongst them. The love is there amongst them.
JB Does Psalm 16 fit in with what we have here? Would the expression “at my right hand” suggest the glory, and the words, “I have set Jehovah continually before me” have in mind complete committal to Jehovah?
JT The whole psalm might fit in with what we are saying. He set Jehovah continually before Him, and then he said his goodness did not extend to Jehovah, a wonderful expression of self-abnegation, what you might call compression in the Lord. How He compressed Himself to say that! Then He says, “To the saints that are on the earth, and to the excellent ... . In them is all my delight”. That is horizontal love. When He says, “I have set Jehovah ... before me”, that is ascending love in Christ. “My goodness extendeth not to thee; to the saints that are on the earth ... in them is all my delight”, so that there would be the ascending love, and the saints viewed horizontally as alongside of Him. Then the psalmist abominates the idea of idolatry.
HH That helps; it comes into line with this chapter, the abomination of idolatry; there is no other god.
JT Quite so. So that the psalm runs on to what is at God’s right hand. He would show him the path of life: “Thy countenance is fulness of joy; at thy right hand are pleasures for evermore”. The psalm [p. 94] contemplates ascent, that He would ascend in that sense to the right hand of God.
SMcC Do you think that if the volume of blood suggested in this section were better understood and enjoyed amongst us, we would have an environment in which there would be more readiness to take on this spirit of obedience and subjection to these things? “All the words that Jehovah has said will we do!” (chapter 24: 3).
JT The chapter is full of rich thoughts and carefully set words and terms. The word ‘mountain’ is kept in the background until you come to verse 12. It is the spiritual thought that is in mind. The first part is that ascension is possible, the type pointing on to Christ and the covenant. Ascension is possible in this connection, not at the beginning, but in this connection as we progress in the understanding of the love of God. How pleasing His commandments are to us as they are accepted unqualifiedly by us, inclusive of judgments.
CAM In that way this matter of being under His feet is the thought of the “transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness”. The very beauty of the thing is that it is below. So that now there is on earth a glory which corresponds with heaven, but it is under His feet. How do you understand that?
JT It points to what we have as we ascend. We ascend out of the wilderness conditions. We begin with the wilderness but we ascend out of the wilderness conditions. The wilderness conditions imply that the walking place is sand and God tells us later that He walked with Israel forty years. That would be His coming down to their circumstances; but these special occasions imply that we ascend out of wilderness conditions into divine conditions. We are brought up to see where God [p. 95] walks.
HH Is not the sapphire a blue stone, a heavenly colour? Would it not suggest the heavenly side of things for us?
JT I think it does. We are brought into it on the principle of ascension. In a spiritual way we are brought into divine circumstances where the walking is; Habakkuk says, “And he will make me to walk upon my high places”, Habakkuk 3: 19. He had been walking here below in a scene of discipline and felt it, too; but now whatever happens he says, “Yet I will rejoice in Jehovah, I will joy in the God of my salvation. Jehovah, the Lord, is my strength, and he maketh my feet like hinds’ feet, and he will make me to walk upon my high places”. Then the praise is upon the stringed instruments to the chief Musician. This passage has that in mind, that faith is enabled by the power of the Spirit to ascend into divine circumstances so that what is under the divine feet is sapphire pavement, “Under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness”. It is a question of the clarity of the position, beautiful transparency that belongs to the people of God in these circumstances.
AHP Does that correspond with 1 John 1: 7, “If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanses us from all sin”?
JT That is down here where the fellowship is, that we walk in that light; not God walking in it, but God in it. Here we have what is under His feet a heavenly thing. He is going to come down. In the next chapter He says, ‘I am going to come down and dwell among you’; that is, in wilderness circumstances.
JS Would “under his feet” suggest the work completed (chapter 24. 10)?
JT It is a created thing that we can have part in. It is not an uncreated condition. It is what God [p. 96] has come into in grace in the heavenly side of it. It is a “work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness”. It is what His feet are on. It is what we touch, our privilege to touch on the principle of ascension. Not exactly a place, but it is to see what is under His feet. We are brought into divine circumstances, and as seeing those circumstances on high, we all the more value what He proposes to do in love; that is, to come down here and walk upon the sand.
AR As having gone up they are called nobles there, and it says, “He laid not his hand” on them (chapter 24. 11). Would it suggest that they are in correspondence with the place?
JT I think that is in it. It is clearly what we are as ascended, equal to the place, and at liberty to eat and drink and see God.
AJD In John 20, the Lord comes into the midst and it says that He stood, “He stood in the midst”. He did not sit down among the brethren. Do you think that denotes that He has in mind ascension for the saints? He was not going to remain with them on that level, indicating that there was something further on the ascension line which you have in mind.
JT “He stood in the midst” would mean that He had not reached finality. The position was tentative. He was going on to finality, so that standing would not be a permanent state of things. Stephen sees Him still standing at the right hand of God, meaning that the final point had not been reached yet. The idea is that He was waiting in grace on the Jews.
Ques Is it a progressive thought in verse 11: “And on the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not his hand: they saw God, and ate and drank”?
JT The idea of nobility is mentioned. The words are set like jewels here, each in its place. The word ‘nobles’ comes in in verse 11 to set us free. The truth of the matter is that the covenant is to release us for sonship. Great and glorious as it is, it is a means to an end. It is to release us in intelligence and affection for sonship in the position above. Sonship is implied in the word ‘nobles’; then there would be liberty to eat and drink in the presence of God.
WB-w I thought the mountain was suggestive of heavenly atmosphere come down into the sphere of administration.
JT That is no doubt true. The way in which the word is introduced here leads up to the present session of Christ in a place. Jehovah says, “Come up to me into the mountain, and be there”, and then we are told at the end of the chapter that Moses was on the mountain forty days and forty nights; as if to call attention to a session there and the people left below under Aaron and Hur. That is to say, if any matter comes up they are there, but the mediator is on high. It says in chapter 24: 15, 16, “And the cloud covered the mountain. And the glory of Jehovah abode on mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days”. Then in verse 17, “The appearance of the glory of Jehovah was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain, before the eyes of the children of Israel. And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and ascended the mountain”. The word ‘glory’ comes into its place. There is great stress laid on the mountain, and to ascension, pointing to that which attached to Moses alone; no one else was to be there. Joshua was there, but only as an accessory; he is not there mentioned as a man of privilege. He was only an accessory to the mediator. It is the minister that is in mind. We should have Christ in His personal distinction before us in this matter, the idea of the place on the mountain being connected with Him, and only the idea of going up connected [p. 98] with us.
CHH Would that be similar to Matthew 17 enhancing the mediator? In Isaiah 42 Christ Himself is spoken of as being set a covenant.
JT The mediator is everything on the mountain. Matthew is the gospel of mountains. It is Christ in a variety of ways, on seven different mountains; each one brings out some different glory of Christ. On the mount of transfiguration we have the Supreme thought; it is to bring out who He is. That, I think, enters into this. The distinction that is seen in Moses is that although the glory was like a consuming fire, he goes into it.
AR As if the only man equal for such a position.
JT Only one man is equal to that. The others are allowed to see the God of Israel and where His feet were. But now the glory is a consuming fire and who can face that? I think the true Mediator’s distinction is in mind.
JS In Matthew it says His face shone as the sun.
JT That is right; it is the administrative side and so the mountains are prominent there.
CHH In Luke the cloud does not overshadow them until Moses and Elias have departed.
JT Just so. Luke alone gives us the departure of Moses and Elias before you get the cloud. Peter had said, “Let us make ...”, but it is only Christ, it is to bring out the glory of Christ personally.
EP You mean that Moses was greatly distinguished at this point. He says to the elders, “Wait here for us, until we return to you” (verse 14). They were left in the position to which he had brought them.
JT I do not think they were really left there; I think the idea is that the ascension contemplated in the first half of the chapter really does not take us away literally from the earth at all. After assembly session, for instance, as we had to do with this morning, when we come back to what is normal, we are on the earth. It is all a question of the state of our [p. 99] minds, and I think that is what is in mind here. Aaron and Hur are amongst Israel, not simply amongst the seventy elders; they are forty days below with the people. It throws great light on our position here. When we return in mind from proper assembly privileges we are just here, as Aaron and Hur are here in the midst of all the people of Israel.
EP So Moses says, “Behold, Aaron and Hur are with you: if any man have any matter let him come before them”.
JT That is the whole people; the subsequent history shows that it was so. Instead of Aaron being true they make the calf during these forty days.
AR Do you think the position is higher and higher? In verse 13 it says that Moses went up to the mountain of God with Joshua his attendant.
JT Notice it does not say that Joshua went up into the mountain, I am only calling attention to that so that every word is to be noticed here, “Moses rose up, and Joshua his attendant; and Moses went up to the mountain of God” (verse 13). It does not say Moses and Joshua went up; it is Moses going up into the mount. Joshua would go, of course, but the wording is so accurate. He is not to be viewed as a person of any special privilege or distinction here. The idea is Moses going up to the mountain and Moses alone. He is only attending Moses in an accessory way.
AJD Would it enhance the rights of the mediator?
JT It is what belongs to Christ. It is to bring out that He is the one that went into the mountain.
AR In the last verse of the chapter it says, “And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and ascended the mountain”. It is said of the Lord that He “ascended up far above all heavens”, Ephesians 4: 10.
[p. 100] JT That is just what I thought we would get to. We must be sure that we are not making Joshua a person in that position. He is not mentioned at the beginning of the chapter at all; not that I would make light of Joshua. We must not detract from the pre-eminence of Christ, the only One who is said to have gone into the mountain. In verse 18 “Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and ascended the mountain”, not simply going up as the others did; he went to the highest point.
Ques This morning in the giving of thanks you referred to God, “that spared not his own Son but delivered him up for us all”, Romans 8: 32. Is that the point you are stressing? The greatness of the mediator as the One who has brought in the love of God and sustains it eternally.
JT That is right and how distinguished He is! He can go to the highest point and be there. He is there at the present time. As I understand it, the present mediatorial session of Christ is there; He is there in regard to ourselves.
WJC Does Joshua represent the saints’ position as rising up and able to go so far, but not going all the way; not into an uncreated sphere or into the elevation to which Christ Himself is gone?
JT Well, it is just a question of attending: “Joshua his attendant”. It is that thought introduced here, not to bring out any distinction attaching to the person of Joshua yet, for as he comes down after the forty days his ear is not good.
HH He is not presented in this chapter in that light.
JT He is just mentioned as a certain element there, and what is stressed is Moses, and Moses alone going up, “Let Moses alone come near Jehovah; but they shall not come near” (verse 2).
FNW I had in mind verse 11, I was wondering if there was a way in which we might take up nominally [p. 101] this position and God might have to lay His hand upon us, perhaps in view of lack of obedience and subjection.
JT I think the fact that He did not lay His hand on them was because they were thoroughly in accord with His mind.
RAL Is that why He is also called the God of Israel? He acknowledged that they had accepted the position. Is the thought of complacency in that?
JT I think so; “they saw the God of Israel”. It is to bring out the spirituality of the position. It is an entirely spiritual matter. We see that going up in the first part of the chapter is an entirely spiritual matter for us, but the second part of the chapter is a literal thing; Christ has personally gone up to the highest point.
HH Nadab and Abihu are mentioned here, but they are not later.
JT Quite so. It is the people taken up as they are; their state is not yet brought into it. It is a question, I think, of the way God looks at us as we are in these circumstances. I could not say very much as to what happened subsequently to Nadab and Abihu. It has to be taken account of in the judicial ways of God. Here they are just part of the whole system, which is brought into view.
HH It was very serious that such privileged and prominent men came under judgment later on. They evidently used their own minds and wills, disregarding what the anointing should be in a priestly way.
JT Quite so.
JS Moses was in the midst of the cloud in verse 18. Would that indicate the position that Christ has in glory?
JT It would seem so. It is to bring out Christ’s personal greatness, that He can go so far beyond the points we reach; so that “in all things he might have the pre-eminence”, Colossians 1: 18.
AR [p. 102] Is there any significance in the fact that it says in the last verse that he ascended the mountain, and then it says he was on the mountain, as if he has a position permanently?
JT God says, “Be there” (verse 12). God has Moses in His mind in that distinctive way from the beginning of the chapter. Now He says in verse 12, “Come up to me into the mountain, and be there”. In the last verse Moses was on the mountain so many days, like the present session of Christ on high.
AJD Would “Be there” correspond to the New Testament, “Sit thou at my right hand”?
JT “As I also have overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne”, Revelation 3: 21.
CAM I was wondering if, in that connection, linking it on with the privilege of the morning meeting, whether we do not come back together with that sense of the pre-eminence of Christ; whether this whole matter which you are alluding to would be a picture of what we now experience anticipatively.
JT Yes, quite so. We have to go to chapter 34 to get the full thought of Moses’ coming back. When he came back in chapter 32, it was to execute judgment. The point we are on now is not that, but to see how Moses came back and how the glory shone in his face. I think we ought to link chapter 34 with chapter 24 to bring out how Moses came back from God with glory, with his face shining; and the connection with the assembly service is that we shine, we take on that glory, “We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory”. We take on that glory “even as by the Lord the Spirit”. There is a great function or service in which the Lord changes us so that we take on the glory, and I think that is what we get in the end of chapter 24. Chapter 34 is another going up, and in the meantime [p. 103] Moses has taken on greater glory, greater distinction. So that he is allowed now to hew out the tables for himself. Chapter 34: 2: “And be ready for the morning, and go up in the morning to mount Sinai, and stand there before me on the top of the mountain”. No Joshua now, no seventy, no Aaron, it is Moses alone. “Let no man go up with thee, neither shall any man be seen on all the mountain; neither shall sheep and oxen feed in front of that mountain” (verse 3). Then Moses went up, we are told, and Jehovah came down in the cloud and stood beside him there, so that now we have the action of Jehovah there. What happened up there in regard of Christ, what distinction, and how the glory passed by! Then we are told, “It came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai — and the two tables of testimony were in Moses’ hand, when he came down from the mountain — that Moses knew not that the skin of his face shone through his talking with him. And Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, and behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come near him. And Moses called to them; and they turned to him — Aaron and all the principal men of the assembly; and Moses talked with them” (verses 29 - 31). Now you have the full thought of what happened up there. In chapter 24 it is simply Moses going up, and in chapter 34 it is what transpired between Jehovah and Moses. Moses came down and the skin of his face shone and they were afraid of him, but they turned towards him, “And Moses called to them; and they turned to him”. That is a beautiful picture of how they are set at liberty as they spoke to him. The principal men and Aaron are happy with him.
JS Do you regard this shining as the outshining of glory?
JT I was thinking that is how glory is connected with obedience, how it is interwoven with obedience [p. 104] throughout this book. It takes its place in the face of a man, the most attractive place it could be in.
SMcC I was wondering if there was progression in that regard in which this glory is seen. In chapter 16 the glory is seen in relation to the cloud; in chapter 24 it is abiding on mount Sinai, and now it is seen in relation to the face of a man, in that narrow compass.
JT Well, is not that very beautiful? Where can it be more attractively set than in the face of Jesus? It is the most attractive thing. The glory is placed there so that we should be drawn to it. They were afraid, it says here, but “Moses called to them; and they turned to him — Aaron and all the principal men of the assembly; and Moses talked with them. And afterwards, all the children of Israel came near; and he gave them in commandment all that Jehovah had spoken with him on mount Sinai”. Now there is a happy state of things set up, the glory in the face of a man. I am using this from a typical point of view as seen in 2 Corinthians. The centre of the system of things that God has set up, is glory in the face of a Man.
JS Is the glory for our contemplation? I thought the shining was for our contemplation.
JT Exactly, and that it should shine out, too, “The God who spoke that out of darkness light should shine who has shone in our hearts for the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ”, 2 Corinthians 4: 6. So that it goes the full length of the administrative position at the present time in the gospel. “But if also our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those that are lost; in whom the god of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine forth for them”, 2 Corinthians 4: 3, 4.
[p. 105] Ques Is there any instruction for us in the fact that it was the second time that Moses came down?
JT Well, so much enters into the second visit. So much intervened in the golden calf being set up, and Moses’ faithfulness in dealing with all that. God exalts him. He progresses in greater and greater glory; it is simply Christ coming out more and more. The more the sin on our side, the more the glory of Christ shines. Chapter 34 contemplates what had intervened, how faithful Moses had been, and God is committing so much to him that he is allowed to make the two tables of stone; we are told he also made an ark at the same time (Deuteronomy 10: 3). So I think it is Christ increasingly before us.
HH The ministry is now after the breakdown, the church breakdown.
JT And does it not enhance Christ in your soul, in all our souls?
HH Yes, it does.
CHH In this case, are the saints represented in the stones to be taken up?
JT Well, if we take it as a type they are. We are the material for the writing; that is the way it works out in 2 Corinthians.
Ques Would the first epistle to the Corinthians correspond with Moses coming down in Exodus 32, and then the second epistle correspond with chapter 34, his face shines? It is the same person because his love is still the same, found in administration against evil and showing sin dealt with. God is coming out in love more than ever.
JT There is greater glory in the second letter than the first letter; in fact, he tells us that he had been down even to the gates of death, and now he says, “Our heart is enlarged”, and he is able to write [p. 106] the second letter.
AR Is the second letter written to change the faces of the saints at Corinth, so that their faces might begin to shine?
JT Quite so. It is not that Christ becomes greater personally, but He becomes greater to the ministers, and is seen to be greater through their ministry.
AHP Would “From glory to glory” indicate the variety of glories connected with Christ?
JT I think it would. The glory is endless. The best illustration you can get of that is Stephen. He began with angelic glory; his face shone as an angel, and then he began to speak of the God of glory. If you think of the God of glory the whole range of glory must come into that. The moral side is seen in him in the wonderful way in which he reflected Christ. Then he says, I see the glory of God in heaven.
HH The covenant is better appreciated after a breakdown, is it not? I thought there was more abundant entrance into the covenant after the breakdown at Corinth, and the general breakdown in connection with the church; more abundant appreciation of things now than what you get, for instance, in 1 Corinthians 11, where Paul speaks of the Spirit. What things are there in relation to God in the cup?
JT Enlarge a little on that.
HH I thought the cup is connected with God; the loaf with Christ. Paul gives a distinct setting to the Supper in 1 Corinthians 11. It was to correct bad conduct there, I suppose, but when you come to 2 Corinthians 3 there is a heart on which things can be written, and it would still carry and maintain a right impression of the covenant. So that it is written on the fleshy tables of the heart, that which God can use so that the saints may carry right impressions of the covenant, of the love of God, and in affectionate response answer to [p. 107] it.
JT I am glad you said that. It brings out how things are, the saints taking on glory. I do not know of anything more interesting than that, the way glory is worked out in relation to obedience, and how in the ministry the ministers are glorious. Paul was glorious, really more glorious in the second letter. Stephen begins with glory in his own face. It was in his face but it was angelic glory, I suppose, pointing to that particular period in the ways of God. Angelic service was still there for they are “sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation”, Hebrews 1: 14. But then that is not all the glory, for the Old Testament was by the disposition of angels in the hands of a mediator. The old system was on that principle, and Stephen reflected that fully; but it was not all the glory. Stephen begins his subject with glory, with the God of glory, as much as to say, There is a domain of glory and God is the God of it and there is the working out of it in the Mediator. Stephen goes over the ground of the Old Testament and he begins to shine in moral glory. He is like his Master in the end, there is the shining out of moral glory. He says. “I see the heavens opened” (Acts 7: 56) and there is more glory there. The glory of God is there and Jesus is there. Stephen is able to say just what he saw; he does not say much, “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God”; but there is a young man standing by who is going to say much about it. There is to be the opening up of that glory. I believe the second letter, corresponding with our chapter here, is from a great vessel of glory. He says of the saints, “Vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory”, Romans 9: 23. That is the idea; Stephen is representative of that and this chapter points to the second letter to the Corinthians. How great Paul was, and how he would bring the saints into that greatness! There is to be fixity of glory [p. 108] down here, a taking on of glory, going “from glory to glory”. There is no end to it.
CAM So that the last with God is always the best. The most glorious thing is at the end, I mean in connection with the present dispensation. The last glory is most glorious.
JT I think what was suggested to us was that the breakdown in the assembly has given the Lord an opportunity to bring out the glory of Christ in the assembly, as perhaps has never been presented before in such detail.
CHH Are you suggesting that what Paul saw in Stephen was the foundation of his ministry?
JT I think so. He would never forget that; he tells the Lord later about it, that he was there when His martyr Stephen was put to death.
Ques I would like to ask in regard to the end of Acts 20. It says, “They all wept sore; and falling upon the neck of Paul they ardently kissed him, specially pained by the word which he had said, that they would no more see his face”. I was going to ask in regard to his face whether the great thought of the covenant was reflected in Paul himself, that the elders of Ephesus were so touched that they would not see his face again.
JT I think that is a good link there, especially in relation to what we were saying about Stephen’s face and about Jesus’ face and now the greatest minister really is Paul. What a face it must have been to the saints!