RECONCILIATION AND NEW CREATION
RECONCILIATION AND NEW CREATION
JT-y Is “a man in Christ” the product of the two ministries — the new covenant and reconciliation?
JT The two ministries lead up to the man in Christ. The “man in Christ” is a complete idea, and includes new creation; he represents the purpose of God for us.
Ques Does not reconciliation lead on to purpose?
JT It does, but it refers to what we have been — enemies.
Ques What is your thought as to reconciliation?
JT I think it is that we are constituted suitable to God through the death of Christ, so that we are free for His purpose.
Ques Is reconciliation more the climax of the recovery fine?
JT In Romans it is presented as being received. Therefore in that epistle it is an objective thought included in the gospel.
Ques Would it answer to the kiss of the prodigal?
JT The kiss expresses what is in God’s heart. The father “covered him with kisses”. I mean to say that the kisses express love.
DLH Does not purpose in some way form part of the gospel? I do not mean Paul’s line exactly, but John’s — “God so loved the world”, etc. Is there not a thought of purpose in that view of the gospel?
JT Oh, yes. I should not shut out purpose from the gospel, only there is that in the gospel which meets our need, and there is that which God devises which is infinitely beyond our need. But reconciliation is spoken of after you have new creation introduced in chapter 5 of this epistle. It is “God who has reconciled us”. “If any [p. 132] one be in Christ, there is a new creation”, but “All things are of the God who has reconciled us”.
DLH There it would seem that new creation stands linked very closely with the thought of reconciliation.
JT Well, it is. Reconciliation enables the believer to pass out of old links; he is quite free in the presence of God in regard of them; then it is added that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world”.
Ques Is reconciliation in contrast to enmity?
JT Yes, quite. It says, “How that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation. We are ambassadors therefore for Christ, God as it were beseeching by us, we entreat for Christ, Be reconciled to God”; so that it obviously has reference to what we were.
Ques Does reconciliation imply more than the removal?
JT The apostle goes on to say, “Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us” — that must be the ground of it, else why does he introduce it? So in Colossians 1: 21, 22, you have, “You, who once were alienated and enemies in mind by wicked works, yet now has it reconciled in the body of his flesh through death; to present you holy and unblamable and irreproachable before it”. Evidently there reconciliation enables God to present us to Himself.
AMH Would you consider the latter to be the work of new creation which can be carried on in view of reconciliation having taken place?
JT Well, it is God’s work to present us holy and unblamable and irreproachable before Him.
DLH I thought reconciliation was more than what is negative — the removal of all that is contrary, “alienated and enemies” and all that line of things — [p. 126] that it brings in the thought of complacency which is more positive.
JT Well, it does, but then it is through the sacrifice of Christ, and is presented in the gospel; it is an objective thought. The believer is reconciled as having faith; God accounts of him in no other way. It is something to be received as an objective thing presented.
DLH It must be that if it is presented in the gospel.
JT What follows is necessarily formative, but the thing itself must be presented and accepted as absolute on the ground of sacrifice.
AMH We rather thought, when speaking of it some time back, that Romans, perhaps, presented it on the divine side, and that we come into it by faith and being linked with Christ by the Spirit, but do you think that in 2 Corinthians 5 the apostle is showing what is necessary on our side in order to come into the good of it?
JT That is true, but I think we have to see that it had been effected. God had effected it through the death of Christ.
AMH The thing is done, at any rate, but is not new creation necessary now so that we might be in the liberty of all that reconciliation means?
JT They run together to a point, but reconciliation has to be regarded as subservient to new creation. Through reconciliation I am enabled to enter freely into what is wholly new and eternal.
Ques Is your thought that there is a difference between reconciliation and “in Christ ... a new creation”?
JT That is how it stands. “If any one be in Christ”, it reads, “there is a new creation”; that is what there is. But then we have, “who has reconciled us”. God has done that, and Colossians tells us how He has done it. It is presented in the gospel to [p. 127] be received on the principle of faith, but I would not say that new creation is to be received on the principle of faith, because it refers to the work of God in the believer.
AMH I thought that helped, that there is the faith side to it, and then there is the coming into it on the ground of new creation.
JT Of course you enjoy everything, whatever blessing it is, in the measure in which you are formed, but I think it is well to see that the thing is effected through death, just as forgiveness and righteousness are, and every one of these things is enjoyed in the measure in which I am formed; I apprehend it is attributable to every believer in that sense.
Ques Do you mind saying exactly what you mean when you say it is absolute?
JT It is so because it is effected through the death of Christ. Colossians shows us how it is effected — “in the body of his flesh through death”.
Rem You are linking the thought of reconciliation now with faith.
JT It is to be accepted on that principle. In Ephesians, “that he might reconcile both unto God in one body”, but the means of reconciliation is through death — “by the cross”.
Ques Would it be right to say that it is attributed to a work outside of you?
JT It is. “Who has reconciled” you, that is to say, as apprehended in my soul, it clears me; I am free. It is brought in as an adjunct really where the question of new creation comes in, so that the believer is free; he is at peace now; he is reconciled to God.
MWB It would scarcely be correct to say that a believer is reconciled by means of the work of the Spirit in the soul?
JT No, it would not be correct, because it is effected by the death of Christ. Of course, what God [p. 128] brings us to practically is another matter; for that you need a formative work; and thus I am enabled to enjoy the thing that is effected.
DLH I was going to ask about 2 Corinthians 5: 21: “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him”. Would you look at the whole of that verse as expressive of reconciliation?
JT Yes, I would. It is brought in there to enforce the whole point. It is the groundwork of the whole position.
DLH Then you get what is positive there as well as the removal?
JT It is a question of what I am made through the death of Christ. The Holy Spirit, I believe, would help us to apprehend the greatness of the death of Christ in that respect.
WC God’s “good pleasure in men”. How far does that go? Beyond reconciliation?
JT I think it does.
WC Would you say a little more on that? We have sometimes connected the two thoughts.
JT Reconciliation, of course, underlies “good pleasure in men”, but the thought of “men” involves formation, and so is more positive. Wisdom delighted in the sons of men; family relationship is brought in. It is more than reconciliation. Reconciliation refers to what I am brought into through the death of Christ.
Ques Is it your thought that in connection with new creation there is no need of any thought of removal?
JT There is nothing to remove. The thought of reconciliation will not be necessary. All things have become new.
JBC-l Going back to your reference to the epistle to the Romans, the apostle goes back to the time when reconciliation was accomplished, “when we were enemies”. Would reconciliation in that way be a fresh aspect of the whole situation?
JT Exactly. “Being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of his Son”. God has reached it in Christ, and we come into it by faith, “through whom now we have received the reconciliation”, Romans 5: 10, 11.
Ques You would not limit reconciliation to the negative state, removal only? You would bring in a positive idea somewhere, would you not?
JT Yes, there has to be faith; it is what is effected by Christ’s death. Faith brings me into accord with Christ before God.
Rem “As he is, so are we in this world”.
JT Yes, quite.
DLH How does “in Christ” come in in chapter 5: 21, “the righteousness of God in him”?
JT It refers to the believer’s status. All must be “in Christ”.
Ques Do you not connect that with the work of God in us?
JT It is presented as the effect of Christ having been made sin for us. I think it is the value of the death of Christ that is before us rather than the work of God in us.
Ques Does not “that we might become” suggest something in addition?
JT Well, I think it is what I am as having faith. I think it refers to the value of the work of Christ.
AMH Would you go so far as to say that any one now is the righteousness of God in Him?
JT I think it has the future in view — what God will set out by-and-by as the full product of the work of Christ; all that one would emphasise is, how God has called attention to the full value of the death of Christ. “Him who knew not sin he has made [p. 130] sin for us, that we might become God’s righteousness in him”.
AMH The beginning of His work, and then the final issue.
JT Yes, but the work of God in us also has to be taken account of. It is taken account of in the heavenly city; all will be the handiwork of God, but here the one thing that the Holy Spirit would emphasise is, He was made sin for us, that we might become God’s righteousness in Him.
I do not think the righteousness of God there is what He forms in me, but rather the bearing of the death of Christ; I think that should stand out.
Ques What would you say as to Christ having been made to us “wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption”?
JT He is made unto you all that you need. The reconciliation is effected in Christ. It is there for men to come into.
HFN In regard to the passage in 2 Corinthians 5, would it be wrong to shut out the thought of apprehension? I thought the apostle was describing there how he came into things. Under the effect of the love of Christ he formed certain judgments; he speaks of how he came to them. Is all this objective only?
JT As to reconciliation, I think it is brought in to emphasise what he has been leading up to; the highest point presented there is new creation, where all things are of the God who has reconciled us. It is augmentative.
Ques Would you exclude then the thought of apprehension?
JT No; the knowledge of reconciliation sustains you so that you are free to enjoy new creation, where all things are of God.
HFN Would not that be something more than what is objective? That is the difficulty in my mind, whether there is not a subjective thought as well, and the apostle describes [p. 131] it.
JT Well, the subjective is there in the sense that faith exists. But reconciliation is as perfect as it can be; it is true of you as you receive it. Thus God has reconciled you.
Rem “Hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation” would imply that the thing is done.
JT Surely. The reconciliation was perfectly accomplished in Christ, and then the word of that was committed to the apostles.
JBC-l In 2 Corinthians 5, while the apostle leads up to new creation, and he indicates the way into it, the subject is really reconciliation. He has got more to say about reconciliation in that chapter than he has to say about new creation.
JT I think the leading thought is new creation. The fact that he says so much about reconciliation indicates that the Corinthians were not in accord with it. They were going on contrary to it. Indeed, there are hints throughout this letter of what is beyond, and that is of great importance in the letter. The apostle touches on advanced features of the truth that he would enlarge on were the Corinthians able to receive it. There is something that he must enlarge on, namely, reconciliation.
JBC-l Well, that is what was in my mind. I was thinking of what was said on the question of apprehension. It was a little difficulty to me that apprehension was shut out. I think I can see your point that in speaking of new creation other conditions had to be introduced.
JT He brings in reconciliation as already effected, “who has reconciled”. When he says, “There is new creation”, that is abstract, but he does not say, There is reconciliation. He does not speak of it abstractly; “who has reconciled us”.
Ques Would you agree that we might say that it is new creation in the believer’s apprehension of it?
JT He presents it in an abstract way: “If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”. The point is not he is that, but there is such a thing as that. But as regards reconciliation he says, “who has reconciled us”.
MWB Could you say a little as to the difference between being justified and being reconciled?
JT A justified person is one against whom there is no charge, but in reconciliation I am retained before God for His pleasure. Justification exonerates you, but reconciliation detains you for God. He keeps you for His pleasure. The believer is thus available to God; he is suitable for any place that it may please God that he should fill, or any function he should exercise.
Rem It rather verges on the thought of acceptance.
JT Pretty much. One is, I am free of all charge against me, but then I am kept before God, and He delights in me. This is objectively true of me as a believer.
AMH Is that why it is presented in Romans as, “Reconciled to God through the death of his Son”; His Son brings in the thought of His pleasure?
JT I think that is right. Whatever my apprehension as a believer, God is taking account of me in relation to what is effected, and the more my mind apprehends that the more restful I shall be and the more at home I shall be with God, and so the more suitable for His purpose.
Ques You would say that every believer is reconciled in God’s sight, but new creation needs to be known for the enjoyment of it?
JT But then another thing arises, and that is, there is new creation. New creation is not said to be through the death of Christ; it refers to what is effected in us. “We are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus”. Here the full truth is stated; Ephesians [p. 133] 2: 10.
Ques You look at reconciliation entirely from God’s side?
JT It must be. It is a question of His mind as regards the believer, now that Christ has died. The distance was on account of my state; this being dealt with in the body of Christ’s flesh, through death, I am before God to His entire satisfaction.
Ques On our side would you say we respond?
JT Yes. The measure in which I am formed is the measure in which I take it in; reconciliation is the basis on which God works in me. He is now working with material wholly suitable to His purpose.
DLH Would reconciliation be connected somewhat with the burnt offering, and justification more with the sin offering? I mean, you have in the burnt offering acceptance and pleasure, while in relation to the other there is complete clearance.
JT I suppose that is so in a sense; but “made him sin for us” (2 Corinthians 5: 21) is, I understand, the sin offering. However, the fact stands that reconciliation is effected through death, but it must necessarily go on to what Christ is now as representative for us.
Ques What had you in mind as to the conditions at Corinth indicated in this letter that necessitated the apostle saying so much about reconciliation?
JT Well, they were not pleasing to God in their ways.
Rem The solution would lie in being conformed to the image of God’s Son.
JT But there you come to purpose, which goes further.
Ques In what relation does the thought of new covenant stand to reconciliation?
JT That is what God is towards us. Reconciliation is on the line of what we are towards Him.
Ques I meant rather in the way of our reaching it in soul history.
JT I have no doubt that we enjoy reconciliation [p. 134] in the measure in which we apprehend God’s love to us, but you see reconciliation applies to every one and everything. It is in that way God is dealing with what is pleasing to Him, and therefore He is free in His material, in what He is using; so He is building us up in one thing, and He will work in Israel in connection with another thing — all in keeping, of course. And then, not only persons are reconciled, but things are to be reconciled; hence it must be what is effected through death. Everything is taken up on that ground. Thus God is free to work out His purpose. Christians are reconciled in one body; Israel in twelve tribes.
Rem There could be no moral work in things.
JT No. They are taken up in Christ on the ground of His death. Things as well as persons will be brought practically into accord with God, reconciliation being the basis. Everything has come under Christ for God’s pleasure. “For thy pleasure they are and were created”.
JBC-l How are we to view the gift of the Holy Spirit in connection with what you are saying? Is it on the ground of reconciliation that the Holy Spirit comes?
JT Well, quite. God gives men the Holy Spirit, and of course the Holy Spirit operates on this line; but you must have the thing as light in your soul first.
Ques When you have the light of that in your soul, should there not be the moral correspondence?
JT Surely. That is what there was not in the Corinthians. That is why the apostle says so much about it.
Ques Would you say that reconciliation was a work done for us, and new creation a work done in us?
JT Truly. So that a new creation is brought in in chapter 5 as a thing existing — there is a new creation — but chapter 12 brings in [p. 135] the man.
Rem That is the new creation line.
JT Yes, but you see it is a man now. It is new creation in its highest form, as you might say, because Adam was the top stone at the outset, and so now a “man in Christ”.
Ques Am I right in saying that reconciliation would set me free so that the work of God might go on unhinderedly?
JT That is right. Then in chapter 12 you have the man. And mark! the apostle does not develop this great truth of the “man in Christ”, but it is brought before us so that we might have our minds upon it. What was urgently needed at Corinth was evidently the new covenant and reconciliation, but then God would have us to be occupied with what is beyond. Hence in Numbers 15 you have in the midst of abounding failure, “When ye be come into the land ... which I give unto you”, without any reference to what had happened; God would have His great purpose before His people; so any one in Corinth who loved God would appreciate this remark about new creation, and they would pay attention to what the apostle said about the “man in Christ”.
Ques Is there a practical side to reconciliation?
JT There is — that you might be moving about here for God’s pleasure.
Rem I was thinking of the word, “Be reconciled to God”. Does not that necessitate some sort of change?
JT It is a general statement — “Be reconciled” without saying who are the persons addressed. The reconciliation exists and it is for men to come into it — to receive it — thus they are reconciled to God.
ASL You could proclaim it in the gospel as the pleasure of God that men should be reconciled.
Rem From the order of the scripture it seems that the apostle leads up to the terminus of the line [p. 136] of responsibility before he takes up the side of new creation. I refer to the judgment seat of Christ.
JT But then he refers back, “Who has reconciled us”, so he really goes back to the responsible side.
Rem And a person in the present gain of the judgment seat of Christ would be in conscious reconciliation.
JT The apostle laboured that whether present or absent he should be agreeable to the Lord.
Ques Would Enoch be a practical illustration of reconciliation?
JT Yes. We have now to see what a “man in Christ” is. It is not only that there is new creation, but a “man in Christ”, known to be such.
Ques Do you make a distinction between new creation in chapter 5 and a “man in Christ” in chapter 12?
JT New creation is the divine thought. All things have become new; that is, the whole environment is new. But then, think of a man in that!
Ques Would it be right to say that reconciliation is a question of standing, not of state?
JT It is presented objectively. It is to be received.
DLH I thought it was just the other way about, and that reconciliation did connect itself somewhat with state — “that we might become”. It stands in contrast with a very evil state — “alienated and enemies in mind”. Both these thoughts refer to state and not to what I have done.
JT That is so; believers become the righteousness of God in Christ; but in itself this is effected in Christ’s death.
DLH Surely, but the whole of that condition of things is brought to an end in the death of Christ; I mean, the man who was an enemy is removed in that way in judgment, but in view of a new and totally different state — “that we might become God’s righteousness” — the very opposite of the man who is alienated and an enemy.
JT Yes, quite; but it is the effect of the death of Christ. What underlies it so as to bring you into it is another matter. The point is what is effected in the death of Christ. If you do not distinguish you may put everything under one head; there is the effect of the death of Christ and there is new creation. The Holy Spirit says, “If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”. He refers to an order of things that is wholly new and of God. But in chapter 12 he brings in a man; you do not get that in chapter 5. It is “any one” — “If any one be in Christ”.
DLH You get a concrete person in chapter 12.
JT Yes. Adam had his place in the general thought of creation, as in Genesis 1, but in chapter 2 he stands out in his personal dignity.
AMH I want to be clearer as to the element of pleasure in reconciliation. Is it in another Head? I was thinking as to whether it is not a divine thought set forth in Christ to be effected by a state being produced in me.
JT “Reconciled in the body of his flesh through death”: I think it is well to keep to that.
AMH I think I see that, but there is something I cannot quite grasp as to there being no subjective side; for instance, the whole world is provisionally reconciled, yet you could not say unconverted men are, but as soon as there is faith there is something subjective, is there not, as linking us with the work of Christ? Then, as you say, reconciliation is a means to an end.
JT It is a means to an end. God brings in everything on that basis. He does something in me and something in you. He is working out one thing in the assembly. He has pleasing material. In Israel He will work out something else.
JT The reconciliation of the world [p. 138] is provisional.
JBC-l Reconciliation is therefore brought in in order that we might not appear except for the pleasure of God.
JT I think that is right — that I might be free in my mind and conscience and affections for the new thing; there is nothing to disturb me in it.
JBC-l When you come to chapter 12 and speak of a “man in Christ” you get God’s full thought. Reconciliation prepares you for that.
JT You are available to Him. He is operating with material, so to speak, that is pleasing to Him. As a believer I am regarded from the outset as reconciled; there was much that had to be displaced, but reconciliation was there.
Rem So that primarily you say reconciliation is an objective thought presented in the gospel. Then what brings me into the good of reconciliation?
JT You come into it by faith, but, like everything else, you only enjoy it by the Spirit. Even forgiveness you do not enjoy rightly except by the Spirit. What an immense thing God has effected! Not only has He removed the sin of the world, but He has brought in all things for His pleasure. The material is all pleasing to Him. In a general way it has to be said of us abstractly, because of our practical state, but it is the basis of God’s operations.
Ques Does the natural creation in Genesis 1 and 2 help us?
JT I think we may take it as a pattern, as we have been remarking. The man stands out in it under the general thought in chapter 1, but in chapter 2 he stands out in his own dignity.
Ques What do you understand by the ministry of reconciliation that was given to the apostle? What was the object of that?
JT I think you have it here — that men might be brought to what God had effected in Christ. I [p. 139] think he presented Christ as having effected righteousness, and now before God.
Ques You have spoken several times about reconciliation being effected by the death of Christ. I should like to ask whether it is right to take account of Christ out of death as having effected reconciliation, because it says in Colossians, “By him to reconcile all things unto himself”. The Lord Himself stands out of death before God.
JT “You ... hath he reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreproveable in his sight”. He has reconciled us so that He might present us.
Ques Does it in any way involve our link one with the other?
JT You get that in Ephesians. In Romans we receive it; God effected it through the death of His Son when we were enemies. In Colossians it is, “In the body of his flesh through death”. In Ephesians it is, “Reconcile both ... in one body”. That is where He has reconciled Jews and Gentiles; but it is “by the cross”. Reconciled in one body will not be said of Israel in the future, although they too will be reconciled. We are reconciled in one body, but they, as a nation; but whether they or we, it is through the death of Christ.
Ques Does “a man in Christ” imply the thought of formation?
JT It does, only it is the result that is before us here, not the work that produced it.
Ques Do you connect it with the thought of full growth?
JT You do not bring in development now. That is all past. In the first epistle he occupies us with growth, because he is dealing there with their practical state; but here he is occupied with the result that God had in mind. There is one man — he tells us he knew such a man as that — a “man in Christ”.
[p. 140] Ques Is this the only kind of man who could go into the third heaven?
JT God would indicate here what is His thought for men, that is, for us. “Caught up to the third heaven” — think of the elevation of it!
Ques Would you say reconciliation is administered through our Lord Jesus Christ, while new creation is formative work?
JT Yes, quite.
Ques Is the ministry of reconciliation that we may understand how God could act according to His pleasure?
JT I think it is. He is dealing with me on that ground.
Ques Would you say that justification would vindicate God in relation to His wilderness ways, and reconciliation has in view the vindication of God in regard to the purposes of His love?
JT Well, I suppose that is right. The fact that it is connected with new creation would bear that out.
Ques What is meant by “putting in us the word of that reconciliation”?
JT I think that is apostolic.
Ques How would that work out?
JT The word is the expression of it. There is the “ministry” of it and the “word” of it.
Ques What Paul speaks of here was an ecstasy, was it not?
JT Well, it would be, but it was more — Paul was “caught up”. In chapter 5 he speaks of being beside himself to God, but this is more.
Ques I suppose the apostle was not conscious of anything else, was he?
JT Not then. He did not know even if he was in the body.
Ques You suggested just now that the apostle did not enlarge upon the truth of the “man in Christ” here. [p. 141] Where would you go for that?
JT I would go to Ephesians.
JBC-l You spoke of the new creation, and then of the “man in Christ”. You said that there was more in “the man in Christ” than in new creation. A remark was made in connection with the work of God — what God does in our souls. Would it be right to speak of new creation as the work of God in our souls?
JT I think you have to think of new creation in its completeness; that is what Genesis 1 and 2 present. In 2 Corinthians 5 it is, “There is a new creation”. I think, not only of what is literally incomplete now, but of what God has had before Him — the complete thing. That is how I apprehend it, because in Genesis 1 what strikes you is that God made one thing one day and another thing another day, but He completed the thing; “God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good”.
Ques Was the man the complement to it?
JT He was the top stone of it, and that is what God would present; that is what He has before Him. There are “things”, but they are all the environment of the “man in Christ”.
Ques Would you say that reconciliation touches our body, but that new creation is more a spiritual thought?
JT The body is included in both — we shall have new bodies. “You hath he reconciled”. It is a great thing to see that God has secured all in that way, so that He should work out His thoughts; hence, “to present you holy”, etc. What He effects is based on reconciliation.
Ques But you say that the work of God in our souls is “new creation” work.
JT It is, but I think we ought to take account of new creation as a new creation — complete. “The
[p. 142] old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new”.
Ques The work in our souls is a part of God’s work in new creation?
Rem I once heard it said that new birth is a part of new creation.
JT Oh, but generation is not new creation. There you come to another line, which is parallel.
Ques Would you give us a word or two on Ephesians?
JT If you read the first half of chapter 1 you will see what God had in His mind before the world was. That gives you the clue. Think of that! No finite person can take in eternity; we cannot compass that, but our minds can rest on “the foundation of the world”. God had something in His mind before that event.
HH Why does the thought of paradise come in here?
JT I think it refers to the blessedness of the place.
HH Is that a development of what you get in Luke 23 and further in Revelation 2?
JT Quite.
Ques Would you speak of the third heaven as the elevation?
JT It shows the position you are brought to, the exaltation involved in the purpose of God for us.