THE REALITY OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS
THE REALITY OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS
DLH We have been on the subject of salvation and life, and the connection between the two. Would you mind giving a little outline of what was in your own mind in suggesting the subject?
FER The apostle introduces himself in this epistle and in the epistle to Titus, as an apostle in connection with life, and it is plain on the face of it that salvation has a prominent place in both epistles. The fact is, the two things must inevitably be bound up together. You can only have salvation in life. I think there is a little difference between this epistle and the epistle to Titus. In the latter the thought is “in hope of eternal life” but in this epistle it is not the hope of eternal life he speaks of in the introduction. It is “according to promise of life, the life which is in Christ Jesus”, and it has now all come to light (see chapter 1: 10). Life and incorruptibility are brought to light, but they are bound up with salvation — “who has saved us, and has called us” (chapter 1: 9).
WJ Do you distinguish between life in Christ Jesus and eternal life?
FER I think so. Eternal life has a much more dispensational thought, but life in Christ Jesus is purely a moral thought. You could not speak of life in Christ Jesus as being dispensational.
DLH Is it more what you get in the gospel of John?
FER Yes — in Christ Jesus. You do not get the dispensational thought in the gospel. It is the living bread which came down from heaven — the Spirit is a well of water springing up into everlasting life. What comes out in this epistle is that anything which is life morally is in Christ Jesus. In the second and third chapters of this epistle you get the contrast of what would come in with the corruption of christianity, [p. 83] and the reality of life in Christ Jesus.
WO Jannes and Jambres were foiled by life.
FER Yes. It is the only thing which will meet the existing state of things — that is, life in Christ Jesus. You cannot attempt to counteract the existing state of things by mere outward ecclesiastical order. The apostle says, “Thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life”, that is life-the life which is in Christ Jesus.
DLH You would not say with regard to eternal life that you can lay down any rule as to the dispensational meaning of it, because there are times when it has a different application?
FER No, but I think there is the dispensational thought in it. In Matthew, Mark and Luke you get the thought dispensationally, in John morally.
DLH You do get one expression in John’s epistle — “the promise which He has promised us, eternal life”.
FER Yes, but he has defined what it is, and then adds, “this is the promise”.
WO Is eternal life always an objective thought?
FER Always.
WJ There is one passage that presents a difficulty, “no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him”. I see that eternal life is objective, but that passage presents difficulty to my mind.
FER What I understand by it is that if you dwell in eternal life, eternal life dwells in you — if you dwell in it, the truth of it dwells in you. The word dwelling is to my mind the important part in it. He (the murderer) has not the truth abiding in him, but if you abide in it, it abides in you. I have not a doubt that eternal life is abiding in christians, but if they are not abiding in it it does not abide in them. The great point for us is to abide in it.
DLH When you say “abide in it”, what do you refer to exactly?
FER I think you have to continue in all the conditions in which it consists, and if you do so, you [p. 84] continue in it. If you were to take a living child and put it into a vessel hermetically sealed, the child would die. In order to live, it has to live in the atmosphere, and in the light, and under rule; it can only live in those conditions; so we have to abide in the conditions. Of course, with us it is not a material but a moral thought.
B Is that why Timothy is exhorted to “lay hold of eternal life”?
FER Yes, quite so. If you come to moral considerations, it is very important to remember that no person can claim to possess anything except that into which he has entered. I do not think that can be disputed for a moment.
WB But are not there many things true of a man before he apprehends them?
FER No.
WB Suppose you take a newly converted soul. Is not that soul accepted in the Beloved?
FER I should not predicate that of it. I should predicate it of the Ephesians, but not of the newly born believer.
WB I should have no hesitation in saying that every believer was taken into favour in the Beloved.
FER But you would have no warrant for saying so. You apply a scripture which has no application to the case at all. The realisation of a thing is the possession of it, and no one can claim to possess a thing into which he has not entered.
JB You are speaking of the realisation of it on our side.
WJ It is true for them.
FER Yes.
WB But I go a little further, and say it is true of them.
FER Then you have no warrant. If you put people in possession of something into which they have not entered, you take it out of the moral sphere, and make it material.
WB Is it that a man becomes a child of God [p. 85] when he believes that he is one?
FER No. When he believes what is God’s mind as set forth in Christ — then he really comes into sonship “ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus”.
WB But you would not say of believers that some are the children of God and some are not?
FER I should not say so, but I should suppose that there are many believers who have not an idea of sonship. Everything is on the side of apprehension. You get the perfect expression of God’s mind in regard of man in Christ, but I think that mind must be apprehended and then we enter into what God’s thought is.
JB Christ is the mind of God for every man, hence eternal life is for every man. Otherwise you could not say, “He that believeth not God hath made him a liar”.
FER It is distinct in John 3 — “God so loved ... eternal life” (verse 16). It is God’s thought of man and set forth in Christ.
DLH There is a certain difficulty in taking up scriptures, say at a public reading, because a great number of persons may not be, for instance, in the ‘Ephesian’ condition.
FER A very great deal of difficulty. If you were to take the mass of christians in christendom at the present time, what is put forth in Galatians and Corinthians would have much more application to them.
DER I think one has to bear constantly in mind that the epistle to the Ephesians was written to the Ephesian people, who were in a certain apprehension of divine things — the Spirit had formed them, and so with other epistles.
WB And yet to them the exhortation was given, “Let him that stole steal no more”.
FER But you must not stop there, B., because I think there was to be the expression and exemplification of having put off the old man and put on the new.
WB I have great difficulty in taking up these passages, and thinking that they only become true when they are made good in the soul.
[p. 86] FER What I said was that no one can claim anything that is moral except as he enters into it.
WB But I could labour to show a believer that he stood in the favour of God.
FER I would not work that way. I would work all I could in the way of testimony to present what Christ is, before God, as the perfect expression of God in regard of man. The apostle says, “whom we preach warning every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus” — there was the end for the apostle’s labour.
Ques Then the idea would not be that they had things, but to present to them the things in Christ?
FER Yes — to present to them the things in Christ as being the mind of God, in regard of men — there is a wonderful width in it.
BJ I suppose the way we apprehend things is by the Spirit.
FER Yes.
Ques Are all the privileges of the saints made good for faith?
FER I think faith apprehends them — “Ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus”. Faith apprehends the privilege. I think the privilege is apprehended in Christ, but the privilege is made good in us by the Spirit — “Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father”. Then you can claim sonship, because you have entered into it.
Ques I suppose it is the same with everything from forgiveness onward?
FER I think so.
WJ Will you say a word as to life and salvation in chapter 2?
FER I think the great point before the mind of the apostle was to insist that everything was in Christ Jesus. Timothy was to be strong in the grace which is in Christ Jesus. Faith was in Christ Jesus. Salvation was in Christ Jesus. Therefore it is most completely exclusive of all [p. 87] that is in man. Man had to go completely, and now everything which can be spoken of as life morally is found in Christ Jesus.
JB If everything went to pieces down here, God has established life in Christ Jesus.
FER Quite so. The great point is that life abides, in spite of all that has come in. You may have all the architecture spoiled and defaced, but life abides. That is the great point — life in Christ Jesus.
DLH It enables you to steer your way out of the ruin?
FER Yes.
Ques You have been saying that God’s thought for all men is in Christ, yet do not His purposes apply especially to His children?
FER The effect of the fall was that man became alienated from God, and if man was denied access to the tree of life, he was denied access to God, because you could not separate the thought of life from God. Man became completely detached from God. The effect of redemption was to place all men in the hand of God, so that God could work in man all the pleasure of His will, and the first result is that God puts Himself in communication with all men in Christ, Christ being the mercy-seat. What follows is that Christ is the expression of God’s mind in regard of every man, but then when it comes to the work of God in man, it is another matter, because God will not engage to work in every man — His sovereignty comes in. At the same time He has set forth a perfect expression in Christ of His thought in regard of every man.
JB I suppose the work in man is not the subject of testimony?
FER No.
WB The necessity of God’s work in man may become the subject of testimony?
FER Well, it is not exactly the subject of testimony. I am sure you will agree that the great subject of divine testimony is [p. 88] Christ.
WB Undoubtedly; but do you not think that there are times when God would have some of His servants insist on the new birth?
FER It is a little difficult to me, because the new birth involves the sovereignty of God. I think it is well to steer clear, in testimony to man, of truths which involve the sovereignty of God.
DLH A man might turn round and say, ‘I cannot do it’.
JB It might be well to say such things to people who are in an outward relationship with God, and trusting in forms and ordinances. Do you not think that in the confusion in which we are here, one has to say a great many things to a congregation, which you can hardly say are the subject of testimony?
FER Yes; because you are dealing with people who are on christian ground. In all our preaching we really take it into account. We do not preach like we would to heathen. The apostle had special grace and ability to speak to the heathen — he was specially empowered in the testimony.
Ques Why are these days called the last days (verse 1)?
Rem But there will be other days after these days.
FER Yes, but not of christianity. We must not expect there to be any great resuscitation. It is a terrible indictment and has come fully in. There are two things presented in contrast — a form of piety on the one hand and life in Christ Jesus on the other. The former can only be met by the latter, and you will find that the form of piety entangles people because a great many do not want much more than the form. Amongst us the question might fairly be raised as to what people are really after — whether they are after a form of piety, or life in Christ Jesus because the latter means the complete rejection of all that is of man, of the flesh. You cannot talk about life in Christ Jesus and not exclude the flesh. They are put in contrast here. The apostle’s doctrine, manner of life — all that is morally life.
[p. 89] Ques Are there a great many that have life in Christ Jesus who do not know anything about the end of man in the flesh?
FER I do not know at all. One is the necessity that hangs upon the other.
WJ The washing of regeneration and the renewing go together.
FER I think so. The point is that christianity is vitality. It is not simply faith. There can be no vitality without faith, but christianity is vitality. People are put back to faith to a very large extent. The reformers were in that boat largely, but christianity is really vitality — it is the life in Christ Jesus which has come in.
WB But you would say there was a little vitality with those in chapter 11 of Hebrews?
FER I think there was underneath; but the Lord says, “I am come that they might have life”. Life and incorruptibility was not brought to light — it was brought to light by the gospel. The fact is, we can speak of those men more than they could speak of themselves, with the light we now have. God put sanction to a very large extent even upon the flesh. It was not yet rejected. You get men acting in the flesh and after the flesh — it was not yet set aside. All that has come out in Christ.
Ques Could you say they had salvation?
FER No; I do not think so.
WJ You must have Paul’s doctrine and manner of life.
FER Yes. Manner of life succeeds it, and not only so but “faith, longsuffering” (verse 10). I think the apostle’s doctrine involved the setting aside of man because one very important point in Paul’s doctrine is justification in Christ. “... by him all that believe are justified”.
Ques But resurrection is the ground of our justification is it not?
FER Yes, but it is not His resurrection, it is Himself. He was raised for our justification. You cannot have justification without attachment, so that every [p. 90] justified person is attached to Christ. It is in the very fact of being attached to Christ you are justified — otherwise you are lawless. There are really two sides. You are justified in Christ, or else you are lawless. There is no escape from lawlessness except by attachment to Christ.
K When you say attachment to Christ, you do not mean affection for Him?
FER No.
PRM What is the force of righteousness being imputed?
FER That a man is accounted righteous.
PRM Does that differ from what you are saying as to justification?
FER I do not think so. The whole universe of bliss will have its justification in the head of it. Israel will not be justified in itself and the nations will not be justified in themselves. It is a vast system, the whole of which is justified in the head; and that is so now. Though God dealt with men on the ground of flesh more or less, He had Christ before Him.
DLH The “forbearance of God” indicates that?
FER I think so. God has set Him forth a mercy-seat through faith in His blood to declare His righteousness. The mercy-seat is the declaration of His righteousness.
B You were speaking of eternal life as being dispensational?
FER I would only say it is always presented dispensationally in Matthew, Mark and Luke, but the difference between those and John’s gospel is that John presents it morally, and gives to it a present application.
Ques Would you say that Paul’s “manner of life” was the life of Christ coming out in him?
FER I think so. Everything savoured of life. All the qualities which enable you to overcome down here savour of life, but where is the life? It is in Christ Jesus. A dead fish goes with the stream, and if we are to go against the current we must have life. It is in the energy [p. 91] of life you overcome. There is no salvation apart from life and it is in the energy of life that you come into salvation.
Ques You would say that Paul came into life in a very special way. “It pleased God to reveal his Son in me”?
FER Yes.
Rem At the best we are very slow.
FER I think so, but really we see all around us what is depicted in the early part of the chapter. How are we going to meet it? I think we have to see that we overcome in the energy of life in Christ Jesus. We ought to be marked by purpose and faith — qualities which enable us to overcome. Everything is against us in a way. I wonder how many people are going to be drawn into the net in connection with what is going on this year? All these things come along as a test, but what are people after? Do they want the good of this world, or do they want salvation from it?
Ques We are saved from it in life, you would say?
FER Exactly. As new-born babes desiring the sincere milk of the word that by it ye may grow up unto salvation. It accompanies life.
WC I have thought that manner of life is exemplified in the second chapter of Philippians, and purpose in the third.
FER I think so. The wonderful thing is that you overcome down here. It is the proof of the energy of life in Christ Jesus. Christ overcame. Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world. I am sure we do not overcome except in life.
Ques In what sense had David salvation — “Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation”?
FER I do not know. I think his soul got under the power of evil, and he wanted to be delivered from it. No doubt God did a very great deal for the saints in the Old Testament in anticipation of what was coming, and in advance of where they really were in a way.
JMcK I suppose there is no such thing [p. 92] as standing still, we must overcome or be overcome.
FER I think it is either one or the other. Properly speaking, the position in which we stand in relation to christendom renders it perfectly certain that everyone ought to be an overcomer; because we have taken a very serious position in regard to the form of piety. We ought not to have one person among us who is not an overcomer. Everybody ought to be in the energy of life in Christ.
Ques It is by faith we overcome?
FER No. I think it is in life.
Ques What is the force of that scripture, “This is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith”?
FER I do not know. You will not overcome the world without faith — faith in Christ Jesus — “wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”. I have no doubt that as things are in the present time, faith is an essential element of life in Christ Jesus — “The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God”. We have nothing for sight. Everything is for faith now. You get a very remarkable expression in this epistle — the faith which is in Christ Jesus. It is characteristic of that state.