THE NECESSITY FOR VITALITY WHEN DECAY SETS IN
[p. 31] THE NECESSITY FOR VITALITY WHEN DECAY SETS IN
FER In connection with the thought of “life in Christ Jesus” salvation comes into view pretty much, both here and in Titus. You get the same principle in Revelation, in the addresses to the seven churches. In Ephesus, there is the defection of the church from its first estate, and in Smyrna the Lord speaks about life — He was dead, and lives, and He promises the crown of life to the overcomer who “shall in no wise be injured of the second death”.
DLH Then what is vital, I suppose, comes into prominence in connection with the selection of the professing body.
FER Yes, because there is no hope, so far as the church as a light bearer is concerned, for restoration. It will never be restored from that point of view. I think in the early days of christianity what kept them pretty much was fellowship, service and that kind of thing — all in fact which was connected with the presence of the Spirit. Their attention was taken up with that.
HCA Would you say what your thought is about life here, before there is any question of death at all?
FER It was all bound up in the thought of God and Christ Jesus.
HCA Then does christianity bring saints into the good of what was in the purpose of God before the world was?
FER Yes. When decay had set in with the professing body the Spirit of God seems to fall back upon what is vital. I do not think it is at all difficult to understand that in the early days of the church they were taken up pretty much with the presence of the Spirit, and all the mighty effects consequent upon it. You find that in the Acts.
DLH I suppose the fact is, there was a good vital [p. 32] condition at that time and the question as to vitality did not arise?
FER No, they were in the enjoyment of the truth and fellowship, the abundance of gift, and the powers of the world to come, all of which in a certain sense were connected with the energy of the Spirit. We have very little of that in the present state of the church and we cannot attempt to imitate it. We cannot go back to Pentecost, and restore the original state of the church.
HCA What is the exact force of promise of life here in the first verse, and in Titus?
FER I think it is that to which God saw fit to engage Himself.
HCA When would that be?
FER In eternal purpose.
HCA Was it all before Him in Christ at that time?
FER No doubt about it.
HCA Then if we go on to the future — is the thought that of necessity everything must be established in Christ, so that saints come into the thought of God in consequence of their association with Christ?
FER I think now. The truth is that God has established everything in Christ now. Christ is there and God has established everything in Him so that it can all come to light; it has come to light.
Ques I suppose you would say chosen in Christ is pretty much the same as what is here?
FER Yes, all was in connection with the eternal purpose.
Ques Are the actings of the Spirit intended to make that promise effective in us?
FER It must be so. I think there are two lines of truth which are pretty distinct. One is what God has established in Christ, and the other is the work of God in the believer. I do not know that we keep them sufficiently distinct in our minds, but I think it is important.
Ques In the first verse is it the apostleship or the will of God which is connected with [p. 33] the purpose of eternal life?
FER I think the apostleship is on that line — “according to ... Jesus”.
HLA When he says in Titus eternal life, does not that go on to the full display and good of it — what it is in the thought of God?
FER There is not much difference of thought between eternal life in Christ Jesus and life in Christ Jesus. For instance in John’s first epistle he says, “God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son”. They must be substantially the same thing. Here it is the “promise of life in Christ Jesus”, which would convey pretty much the same thought. ‘Eternal’ gives its character to it, but the expression ‘life’ carries it.
HCA God’s thought of life is seen in the tree of life in the midst of the garden.
FER Yes, it was in the midst of men, but the truth of His life could not come out until Christ came.
SLO Does life involve resurrection?
FER Well, I think it must on our part. It is the bringing in of the light of life and incorruptibility. You could not get that in any application to us except in resurrection; or at all events, a change equivalent to resurrection. “... this corruptible must needs put on incorruptibility”, 1 Corinthians 15: 53.
Ques Is that the force of what we get in Jude, “awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life”, Jude 21?
FER I suppose so.
M In what sense is it the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ?
FER I think it is the same principle on which the apostle says, “The Lord grant to him to find mercy from the Lord in that day” (verse 18). There is a sovereign mercy of the Lord which comes to pass in that day, and you get the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
HCA Is the thought of salvation to deliver from all the influence of death which has [p. 34] come in?
FER Yes; life in Christ Jesus on the one hand must of necessity involve salvation on the other, and salvation must be commensurate with the blessing. It runs concurrently with it — salvation from what is contrary to the blessing.
HCA What do you think is the order — is it that life should be more entered into in order that salvation might be known?
FER I think salvation would be known. If a man entered into righteousness, he would be set free from lawlessness. By entering into life, you pass out of death. If you enter into light, you pass out of the region of the powers of darkness. If you abide in Christ you do not sin — you are delivered from lawlessness. You get salvation in that way from sin. If you love the brethren, you are conscious that you have passed out of death into life — you are free from death and the world. And so, as you come into light, you are delivered from the rulers of the darkness of this world.
HCA So that the good of life really is the way of deliverance?
FER Life in another man (objective, in that way) must involve deliverance from all that came in by the first man. Sin and death and darkness all came in by the first man, but then, if we are led into the consciousness of blessing which subsists in the second Man we escape from all that.
Rem I suppose it is practically that the soul is satisfied and happy, and does not lust for other things.
FER I think so. Salvation is involved. Life is not a theory — life is life.
SLO Adam did not have any of these blessings before he fell?
FER No, I do not think it was established in Adam or any other man.
Ques He was only a figure of Him who was to come?
FER Yes. He could involve other people in his fall, and he did. Of course, if Adam had remained as God made him, they would have been like him. They [p. 35] could not have entered into a blessing which did not properly belong to them. If we enter into that which is in Christ Jesus, we enter into what properly does not belong to us, but it is there for every man. God has established in Christ, the last Adam, life for every man. It is not that everyone gets it, but it is established there for everyone. I think the application of it is universal. “God so loved ... life” (John 3: 16). I do not think it would be wrong to preach eternal life.
DLH But then salvation goes along with that too?
FER Yes, but salvation is in Christ Jesus. Whatever God has established in Christ Jesus is available to every man.
DLH So that in the testimony of the gospel both these things are really presented?
FER Yes, and I think you are right in presenting them. For instance, the apostle said to the Ephesians, “Having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation”. In the gospel there was presented how God had found salvation for the gentiles. “The grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men” — there is no limit there.
Ques What is growing up into salvation?
FER It is virtually the same thing as growth into life. It is just in proportion as that goes on that you really grow up into salvation — the two are bound to go together.
JSO It is very much in the Acts. “Paul and Barnabas spoke boldly and said, It was necessary ..”. (Acts 13: 46, 47).
FER Exactly, that is what Christ was to be.
SLO Then do both begin with the receiving of the Holy Spirit?
FER I think so, because I cannot possibly conceive of any salvation except in the power of the Spirit, and the Spirit is the well of water that springs up into everlasting life.
Ques The Spirit is the one that brings life and [p. 36] maintains life?
FER If Christ be in you, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. I think that our tendency has been to be too ecclesiastical, as though we could restore the order of the church.
HCA Mr. Darby used to say we could be a witness to the ruin.
FER I think brethren were disposed to present a kind of pattern of what the original was. You cannot go back upon the past. When the past has failed, you must go forward to the future.
DLH I suppose the light of the past should regulate us?
FER I think you are actuated more by the light of what is coming. In the Old Testament the Spirit of God continually reproaches Israel with their defectiveness, but He leads them on to the future. He brings Christ and the kingdom out.
HCA But here you do go back to the thought of God as to life.
FER But it all refers to what is coming. Life is all connected with the manifestation of the last Adam. It is hid for the moment but it carries you on to manifestation. Then again, another thing comes into view, namely, the heavenly city. I strongly suspect that if we were really affected by the truth of life in Christ Jesus and the heavenly city we should reproduce without effort so far the original order of the church.
S.L.O. Morally?
FER Yes, because really there could be nothing opposed between the order of the church and the heavenly city morally. I think all moral principles which came out in the church as God established it at first, really must come out in the heavenly city.
SLO Only there is no evil to contend against.
FER No, but you get moral principles — righteousness, holiness, unity.
HCA I suppose the light is Christ?
FER Yes.
HCA That would be the [p. 37] same as in the churches — they were set here as light bearers.
FER Yes.
SLO Then would you call the heavenly city the manifestation of life?
FER Every proper moral characteristic comes out in it — righteousness, holiness, unity — it has the glory of God and her light like unto a stone most precious.
DLH So that just as we are under the power of the Spirit now, these moral elements are produced?
FER I think so; but the point is what will the Spirit engage our attention with, with the past or the future? I speak quite under correction; I think that when everything which God has set up externally has failed, the Spirit of God will not occupy you with the past, but with the future. That is a principle which runs through Scripture. No one can get any proper apprehension of Christ unless he sees what is going to mark Christ in glory.
Ques I suppose you would say that “life in Christ” looks on. It would be something like you get in Colossians 3 — it is hid?
FER Yes — when Christ who is our life is manifested.
SLJ Is quickened together with Christ, more than receiving the Spirit?
FER Yes, I think it indicates the effectual working of the Spirit in you, so that you are quickened together with Him. It is of immense importance to apprehend the vast system of blessing of which Christ is the centre and Head, in all the extent and vastness of it — I do not care by what name you call it, that is not the point to my mind; then to understand the particular part which the church has in it.
SLO Is that according to Ephesians?
FER Yes; in heading up all things in Christ in whom the church has obtained an inheritance.
HCA Was not the death of Christ the closing up of the first order of things?
FER [p. 38] Yes.
HCA God keeps us in the good of the death of Christ. Every Lord’s day that is what comes before us, and as to the future it is the glory of Christ. The humiliation on the one side, and the glory on the other.
FER Yes. You get it here (see verses 9 and 10). It is a tremendous expression. He has annulled death and brought life and incorruptibility to light by the gospel.
HCA Would that be what he refers to as the form of sound words?
FER I do not know. I have no doubt the truth was expressed in the form of sound words, but no form of words would convey the spirit of the thing. Christ has annulled death and brought life and incorruptibility to light. It means life and incorruptibility in regard to all that which comes under Christ, because life and incorruptibility will no doubt more or less characterise the whole universe of which Christ is the Head.
SLO Is incorruptibility the impossibility of any sin or evil coming in?
FER I think it is the removal of the pressure of the corruption which everything is under. Christ will remove it — the creation itself will be delivered from the bondage of corruption. Christ has annulled the rule of death, and it is exceedingly possible that some of us will never die at all.
Ques I suppose incorruptibility has to say to the body chiefly?
FER I think it has to say to the whole creation. I do not think incorruptibility will mark the state of man when Christ is manifested as the last Adam. Sin will no longer reign by death. Life and incorruptibility will come to pass.
DLH But then it is already brought to light by the gospel. That seems to me to be such an immensely important point in christianity — you have the light of the world to come.
FER I will tell you a remarkable expression in Romans — “the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to [p. 39] the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest”, Romans 16: 25, 26. You have got to preach Jesus Christ in the gospel according to the revelation of the mystery — make it known unto all nations for the obedience of faith.
DLH Then you take the mystery not merely to be the church, but the mystery of Christ?
FER Yes; the mystery of God’s will. See how the apostle goes into the ways of God and brings in the restoration of Israel. Then in the Revelation you get the mystery of God finished. When everything is manifested there is no longer mystery, but it is the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the mystery. He has made known unto us the mystery of His will ... to head up all things in Christ (Ephesians 1). It is the preaching of Jesus Christ as the great Head.
Ques As in Colossians 2?
FER Yes; in Him are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Christ has annulled death and brought life and incorruptibility to light, so that He might take the place of Head and in the system of which He is Head death should not be reckoned.
Ques You do not find that in the Acts?
FER No; it is more after that transient state.
SLO Not till the failure?
FER No.
Ques What would be the testimony of our Lord in verse 8?
FER I think it is the testimony which the Lord had committed to them. I think the Lord had committed a certain testimony special to Paul.
Ques Would you say it was confined to one truth, or a common statement?
FER I think it is very much more the testimony of life in Christ Jesus; that is, that He has annulled death and brought life and incorruptibility to light by the gospel. Christ is going to prevail. It is a wonderful thing — you see everything established in Christ. To begin with, you get rule established in Christ — that is the first [p. 40] element of blessing; just like rule is established in the sun. You may depend upon it you will never get a universe set right until everything is brought under rule — the rule is established in Christ.
Ques In a few words, what is the testimony of our Lord?
FER I think it is what is spoken of here — the annulling of death and the bringing to light life and incorruptibility.
Ques Not quite the same as “my doctrine”?
FER Well, I think it was Paul’s doctrine according to the revelation of the mystery. I think the twelve preached Christ more in relation to the Jew. For instance, in Acts we read Him hath God exalted to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins, and God opened a door to the gentiles, but I do not think you get them presenting Christ as the Sun and centre of a vast universe. That comes out by Paul.
Ques Can the testimony of the Lord be preached apart from subjection to Him as Lord?
FER If you preach, you preach in fidelity to the Lord.
Ques That brings His rule over you in preaching and will result in what Paul speaks of further on as to suffering for these things?
FER Yes.
JMcK I suppose that kind of preaching will never be popular — “me his prisoner”.
FER The fact is, it is not popular because it is too unsubstantial. Some people would perhaps call it transcendental.
DLH I think they want something that is connected with man that is, and I suppose that is the secret of what the apostle said, “Be not thou therefore ashamed”, etc. (verse 8).
FER I think so. If you want to be successful, adapt christianity to this world. Man would applaud you for that.
HCA Is not the testimony of the Lord [p. 41] the indication of what is pleasing to God in another?
FER I think the passage shows us what it is. He says, ‘It is made manifest’ (verse 10). That is what I should call the testimony of our Lord. What is established in Christ is really what God intends for the universe. For instance, the power of God that wrought in the resurrection of Christ is the power of God to us-ward who believe, so we have faith in the operation of God who raised Him from the dead. It all begins in the church. Christ is the head, but then it does not end with the church.
DLH But then we are in this singular position that we have the light of these things before they are actually made manifest.
FER Yes; but it is made manifest to us. The church is so instructed in every way of God that it must occupy a place which none else can occupy.
JSO For instance, sonship. Would that be manifest in a future day elsewhere?
FER I think it will — not at all in the same sense, but you get the word applied. For instance, all those who are raised, are the sons of the resurrection. So Israel is God’s son. The word is used in a very indefinite way. Sonship in our case gets its character from our association with Christ, connected with heavenly places.
JSO Yes; so with the bride and the body.
FER Yes. I think we make a fatal mistake if we neglect the present opportunity in the power of the Spirit. People may neglect every advantage and opportunity in the present world — it will pay in the long run. The point of the heavenly Jerusalem is that it is the light of the universe. The nations shall walk in the light of it and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honour unto it.
Ques Would that be moral and actual?
FER There is a great deal of what is actual but we have to take care of what is moral. I believe that in the thoughts of God the physical is dependent upon the moral.
[p. 42] Rem The resurrection of the body will depend, I suppose, upon the moral.
FER Exactly. God is entirely governed by moral considerations, and the moral must govern the physical. The fall came in consequence of moral considerations, and I have no doubt future dealings of God with the earth will be governed by moral considerations. By faith we understand the worlds were framed by the word of God. Even in regard to the framing of the world God had what was moral in view. The word of God brings in the moral thought — it brings in the intelligence of God. The world was created in that way to be, I should suppose, the scene of God’s ways.
DLH What holds good in the physical world holds good in the moral universe?
FER Yes, and I think you will find the best illustration of spiritual things is really found in the natural universe.
SLO The natural universe was made for that very purpose, was it not?
FER Yes — to illustrate in a way, the spiritual. I think the great point is that in everything that exists in nature — the course of the world, the heavens and the earth — you see moral intelligence, that is the idea of it. The worlds were framed by the word of God. Christ comes in as the true Sun of righteousness, who is to arise with healing in His wings. Then you get rule brought into the moral universe, every family kept in its proper orbit. The principle of rule brought in righteousness and that kind of thing.