CHRISTIANS AS IN THE LINE OF GOD'S WAYS UPON EARTH
[p. 93] CHRISTIANS AS IN THE LINE OF GOD’S WAYS UPON EARTH
FER These epistles do not take us to heaven. They seem to present things on the line of God’s ways down here. I think it is very important to see that there is a certain line of divine ways down here upon earth — the heavenly calling and the being taken to heaven is another thing. Hence you get the appearing of the Lord brought out in this epistle and in 2 Timothy, and certain things are connected with it — “awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ”. In regard to christians too, you get the expression “that he might ... purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous for good works”. So that it is evident they are viewed on the line of God’s ways on earth.
DLH I suppose the thought is that there should be a people morally suitable to God in this world?
FER I think so. Christianity fills up the interval — the Jew being set aside for the time. The church in that sense comes in as “a peculiar people, zealous for good works”. That would not have reference to heaven, but to a people here upon earth. It does not quite do to overlook that line. The thought of the heavenly calling might be taken up so exclusively as to shut out all else, but scripture presents another side, viewing christians as in the line of God’s ways upon earth, and I have no doubt that it is in that connection that the thought of eternal life comes in.
Ques Is it the house of God aspect of things that you refer to?
FER Well, it is not exactly that — I think it is “a peculiar people”.
B Is that the idea in Matthew 21: 43: “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof”?
FER Quite so.
DLH Would you say a little more about eternal life coming out in that connection?
FER Eternal life evidently is the issue of God’s ways upon earth and therefore you get faith, piety, and all that sort of thing coming in in the beginning of the epistle. It is all looking on to the end and issue of divine ways here upon earth. So in chapter 2 you get, “awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory”.
ER What is the blessed hope?
FER It is the blessed hope of the glory. We “rejoice in hope of the glory of God”.
ER Not exactly what we speak of as the rapture?
FER No, that is not the thought.
ER Not the blessed hope?
FER No, it is the “blessed hope and appearing of the glory”.
DLH I suppose that refers to the establishment of God’s rights here upon earth?
FER Yes, I think so.
Ques Why is God spoken of as the Saviour almost in every chapter?
FER Because he is the Saviour God to man. God has come out in the right of redemption and every liability has been discharged — hence He has come out as a Saviour God to man.
HCA Is not the thought that God comes forward to deliver man from all the pressure he was under?
FER I think salvation is brought to man. Righteousness and salvation have been brought to men in Christ, and are available to every man. It only remains for every man to acknowledge Christ.
HCA God has taken that attitude of Saviour?
FER I think so but it is all consequent upon the introduction of Christ. Men have got a Head.
DLH I think the importance of that is very great.
FER It is. It is the position, the situation, and if it is not understood, people do not understand anything.
[p. 95] ER In hope of eternal life — is that the anticipation of the blessing?
FER I think it is the end and issue of divine ways here upon earth, and all that has come in in christianity is really in hope of that.
Ques Would you say eternal life always stands in that connection?
FER Yes, I think so.
DLH Then that was God’s thought for man before the world was?
FER Yes, just as God’s thought for man was Christ, before ever the world. The embodiment of God’s thought for man was Christ — not the first, but the second Man. The natural came first, but the spiritual was God’s thought.
DLH It is a very great comfort to know that, when we see all the ruin and wreck and dishonour to God that has come in.
FER Mr. Darby said, ‘Adam was the first man historically, but really Christ was the Man of God’s counsel’. Therefore you get everything in Christ — righteousness, salvation, eternal life, sonship.
JMcK And the grace of God is as wide as the ruin?
FER I think so.
JMcK A grand gospel to preach.
FER Yes, it brings salvation to “all men” — it is the character of it.
Ques Then all the exercises that christians have to go through at the present day are in relation to the coming of that Man into the scene?
FER Yes; because it goes on to say, “In hope of eternal life ... manifested his word through preaching” (chapter 1, verses 2 and 3). So that you come into the light of it all now. It is not that you have come into the thing exactly — that is not the idea, but it is that God has made manifest His counsel by preaching. It is all brought to light in the doctrine of the epistle. We get everything at the present time according to the verse of a very well-known hymn,
‘[p. 96] That gives us now as heavenly light,
What soon shall be our part’. (64:6)
God has made manifest His word.
Ques Is not a great deal of New Testament scripture written to indicate a course upon earth?
FER Exactly, I quite agree — for a people whose inheritance is not earth, yet after all God is glorified in that people down here — “A peculiar people, zealous for good works”. I fancy that is the divine thought.
FK What is the force of the “promise”?
FER God engaged Himself to it. I think all our ways and conduct ought to be in the light of that in the detail of life, of what God is going to bring here upon earth.
FK Will eternal life be known here upon earth by and by?
FER Quite so — when the ways of God come to an issue, and God brings out the result to His glory. We have the light of it now, and our ways ought to correspond to that light. I think the great need is to know how to fill up the interval here. The church is left here for that purpose — to fill up the interval without having any portion here upon earth.
Ques Would not the house of God aspect of the church come in in that way?
FER I think it would. Of course, everything depends in a kind of way upon the presence of the Spirit. There is no heavenly light apart from the Spirit.
Ques Is there a different aspect in Titus from what you get in Timothy?
FER I think 2 Timothy takes up more the subjective side, and Titus the objective. In the former it is more life in Christ Jesus, but in the latter it is “in hope of eternal life”. Life in Christ Jesus is more a subjective thought; on the other hand eternal life is really the end and issue of divine ways and therefore is an objective thought — it is external to us in a kind of way.
P How will eternal life affect the earth?
FER All the world will be brought under [p. 97] the influence of Christ. The earth has been affected by three things: darkness, hatred and lawlessness. They are the three principles which have come in, and by which men have been affected. Well, I think the coming of the Lord, the bringing in of eternal life, brings in righteousness, love and light, and just as the world has been affected by darkness, hatred and lawlessness, so in the coming of the Lord, the earth will be affected by what He brings in.
DLH Then eternal life is positive in that way, but the introduction of it really does set you free?
FER Yes.
HCA Are not saints viewed as already here in that association — as in connection with what God is presently going to bring in?
FER I think John gives a present application to it and we come into it morally now; but what I have spoken of is what God is going to establish in a public way.
Ques That is what you call the “issue”?
FER Yes. I think it is a very poor heart that cannot rejoice in the issue that God is going to bring about. It would be an awful dishonour to God to entertain such a thought as God being unable to bring about anything better than is now.
FK Here the earthly side of eternal life is more looked at?
FER There never was any heavenly side of it. It is heavenly influence on what is upon earth.
JN When do we get eternal life?
FER When you enter into it.
J.N. When is that?
FER I cannot say.
JN Would you say there is no eternal life in heaven?
FER I do not think you can speak in that way. It is an expression which has its application to earth. The first three New Testament writers, Matthew, Mark and Luke connect it with the coming age, but John gives [p. 98] to it the present application. He ignores all past dispensations and brings in something new and heavenly, and in the light of what John brings in, eternal life comes into view. You must have the fulness of enjoyment in heaven, if it is entered into here. Now, ye abide in Christ, but then, instead of abiding in Christ we are going to reign with Christ. Eternal life is external. The joy of the christian’s heart is not the idea of eternal life — that is part of his state.
DLH I suppose that is connected with the kingdom of God?
FER Well, it is an effect of it. I think there is a great deal of difference between abiding in Christ and reigning with Christ. “If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him”, and reign in life. That is a different thing from abiding in Christ. What marks the present time is abiding in Christ, in a coming day we shall reign with Him — that certainly is a difference. Then there is the responsibility to love one another. I think the church in a kind of way will give the impetus to the universe. God could set forth in the church the riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
PRN What would be the thought of reigning in life by the one Jesus Christ?
FER Christ coming in brings life in. He comes in as life, but then our portion is to reign in life — they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness, shall reign in life by the one Jesus Christ.
DLH I suppose there would be no need for any word about abiding in Christ if there was not some other element to which we are liable to be subject?
FER No. We are in the kingdom now, and a very necessary thing we should be so — otherwise we are lawless. But then, it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom — we come under the influence of Christ now. It will be a different thing in heaven; the whole universe will come under the influence of the church. I think we fail to see the great place the church [p. 99] has in regard to the world to come — the nations walk “in the light of it, and bring their glory and honour into it”.
DLR At the present time the moral features of Christ should be expressed in the church?
FER That is a question of state. I quite admit that properly speaking it should be “not I but Christ liveth in me”, but that is not a question of eternal life but of state.
Ques If that state were there would it be a manifestation of life?
FER Yes. You are alive, but then you are dependent upon the sun, the atmosphere, and light — you cannot live independent of conditions. All creatures live dependent upon conditions. The only One that is independent of conditions is God. He has life in Himself and so Christ has got life in Himself.
Ques Then the life and conditions are inseparable?
FER Yes; you are alive, but then eternal life is dependent upon conditions.
DLH “This is life eternal that they might know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou has sent” — you get the conditions there?
FER Yes. You grasp the conditions and in those conditions you expand. The conditions are healthy and wholesome and in them you grow, just as a child exists and grows in certain wholesome conditions.
Ques When the christian’s conditions are changed, whatever may be in glory — you would not speak of that as eternal life?
FER I think the conditions of eternal life always abide — they are eternal.
DLH I suppose it is true that the great point in scripture is the world to come, whereas the eternal condition is not much spoken of?
FER Why do you call it ‘eternal condition’? But what is beyond? How many verses speak of what is beyond? I have not found more than six.
FK Would you mind stating one or two [p. 100] of them?
FER There is an allusion to it in Isaiah, in 2 Peter and four verses about it in Revelation.
Ques What about the first eight verses Revelation 21?
FER They give you the heavenly state.
Ques That will be eternal, will it not?
FER No, not yet. He is giving you a description of the heavenly state, not of the eternal state — then, as a matter of fact, I counted those verses in, and there are only about four.
Ques Is it not alluded to in Corinthians?
FER God being “all in all”? Yes, that is seven verses. The appearing in glory Titus 2: 13 is in connection with the age to come.
DLH There must have been something a little amiss in the way things have been looked at, because most people have been excessively anxious to be able to clearly define the eternal state of things.
FER I very much doubt if we are competent to enter into it at all. God has been pleased to bring before us the complete unveiling of things, but at the same time I very much doubt our capability to enter into things beyond the world to come. On the other hand, the Spirit of God, the Lord said, “shall glorify me for He shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you”. I think the Spirit of God really gives us understanding in regard of the world to come.
LR Does not that word give you an idea — God being “all in all”?
FER Yes; it does give you an idea. You can accept the statement, but can hardly enter into it. I think you can enter into the world to come, Hebrews 12, but I very much doubt our capability for what is beyond.
Ques What is the “kingdom not to be shaken” at the end of Hebrews 12?
FER That is what we receive — an immovable kingdom; that is the kingdom of Christ.
DLH It is present in a way.
FER [p. 101] Yes.
R What is the everlasting kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ?
FER Well, it is everlasting — it is not set aside.
DLR Then would you just say a word as to why the world to come is the prominent thing?
FER Because I think you have got a world, built up in the providence of God, which is Babylonish. It is all Babylonish — the church is Babylonish and I want to see a world that is built up in the light of God. That is what the world to come is; and the light of God is a very different thing to what is built up in the providence of God. The harlot is professed to rule over the kings of the earth — the heavenly city is going to rule. Influence which God brings in in Christ will be what God has brought in now. He will bring in light, an atmosphere, influence and rule.
HCA The whole point is what you started with — it is that we might fill up the interval.
FER Yes and so John’s writings are all to the same point. He gives a present application to things and concerns himself very little about past dispensations, and brings in the living bread come down from heaven — Christ, the heavenly Man, and shows Christ as Man in relation to the world.
Ques What are the eternal things spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4?
FER The things which are unseen yet — when God comes out. They are not set aside like temporal things. We ought to be in the second chapter of Titus — living here “soberly, and justly, and piously in the present course of things awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ”.
B And that is the manifestation of eternal life now, is it not?
FER I would not quite say that.
B. The maintenance of it?
FER Yes. The apostle apprehended the line and the end of divine ways and he was an apostle on [p. 102] that line.
HCA He is looking rather at eternal life as the climax?
FER Yes, as a climax of divine ways — “Sin has reigned in the power of death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life” (Romans 5: 21) — it is the issue but then I have no doubt whatever it is the glory of God. That is when God shines out publicly in effulgence-it is that which brings eternal life in.
Ques Does John connect eternal life with dispensation?
FER Not exactly — he brings in the present.
Rem It is “the promise which He has promised us, life eternal”.
FER But then he gives it its present application. John disregards dispensation, because he brings in what is from heaven. He brings Christ in not in connection with eternity, but in connection with man in the world down here.
HCA In Him was life.
FER Yes; and the life was the light of men. So too, “God so loved the world”. If eternal life was the expression of God’s love to the world, it is that eternal life is to be enjoyed in the world.
Rem When love was made known, life was made known.
FER Yes.
HCA That would be a very wonderful way to fill up the interval.
FER I think so. It is in this epistle that you are to be living soberly, righteously and piously — what you may call “piety”.