THE WITNESS WHICH GOD HAS SET HERE TO HIS SON
[p. 9] THE WITNESS WHICH GOD HAS SET HERE TO HIS SON
FER I suppose this chapter is in a kind of way supplementary.
DLH Would you mind giving just an outline in a few words of what has preceded, in order that we might know what it is supplementary to?
FER I think what has been mainly before the apostle in chapters 3 and 4, is the unfolding of the eternal life — the connection in which we are blessed. This chapter is supplementary to the witness. That is, the Son of God is come and God has established a witness here to His Son. The fact that we have eternal life really becomes witness to the Son of God. “God hath given ... Son” (verse 11). The Son of God is come — it is not that He is coming, but He has come.
DLH Then the saints down here become a vessel in which this testimony is maintained?
FER I think so. Properly, eternal life abides in them and is in that sense a witness to the Son of God. All the conditions in which eternal life consists could not possibly come in except by the Son of God and the very fact of our being placed in this blessing is witness to the Son of God. You could not conceive anything more important than the thought of the witness which God has set here to His Son.
JSO There are two thoughts connected with it — the Spirit, the water and the blood in verse 8, and then in verse 10, “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself”.
FER Yes and then it also says, “This is the witness of God which he has witnessed concerning his Son” (verse 9).
JSO Then you make it two witnesses?
FER Yes. They have their application to the believer, but the testimony is to the effect that the Son [p. 10] of God is come. We are brought into eternal life and that life is in His Son — hence there is of necessity a witness here to God’s Son.
DLH “Hath the witness in himself”: is the idea of that in regard to testimony?
FER No, I do not think so. The witness there refers to the Spirit.
B Do you connect that with profession?
FER Well, I think in a sense we have the Spirit.
DLH Then the Spirit, water and blood (verse 8) are eternal witnesses and in verse 10 the Spirit is within — an eternal witness, is it not?
FER It is very important to apprehend what the believer has in himself. He has the witness in himself, that is, the Spirit.
DLH That has no particular reference to personal assurance has it?
FER That is not the point here. The point is that he has got the witness in himself that the Son of God is come. Then you get the other witnesses too — the Spirit, water and blood. No one realises the water and blood except by the Spirit.
C Is it the Spirit’s presence here upon earth that is referred to in verse 8?
FER Yes, but of course you could not disconnect the thought of the Spirit from indwelling, because there must be a vessel for the Spirit, He has not become incarnate.
Ques The fact that the Spirit is here is a witness?
FER Yes.
Ques Would you say that this is giving effect here now to that which is spoken of by the Lord in John 16?
FER I do not think it goes so far as that. It says, “He will shew you things to come” (John 16: 13), and “All things that the Father has are mine” (John 16: 15). I rather think this chapter does not go so far as that. The gospel is far greater than the epistle in its bearing.
Ques I suppose it is true that eternal life waited for the Son of God — it could not have been here before [p. 11] the Son of God came?
FER No, it is the Son of God that brings it in.
Ques The consciousness of the knowledge that He is come is eternal life?
FER Well, I think He has brought in all the conditions of eternal life which no one could do except the Son of God.
DLH Would you say again what the conditions are — I think it will help us?
FER I think you must get attachment and rule to begin with. The second condition is atmosphere, and thirdly light. These are what I should call the conditions of eternal life.
DLH Do you say attachment and rule?
FER Yes. I do not mean in the sense of feeling, but as a bond, like the moon attached to the earth. You must get that, else you would have lawlessness. The first thing to overcome is lawlessness, the second thing to overcome is death; and the third thing is to bring the saints into the full light of God.
DLH First you get the kingdom.
FER Not exactly. The kingdom is essential to it all, but the kingdom is not to my mind the thought of attachment or a bond.
DLH But in the kingdom you get what you have been speaking of — the Sun of righteousness.
FER I do not think that is the kingdom. The Sun of righteousness is normal, the kingdom recognises what is abnormal.
DLH But I thought that the glory of His Person was the great point — that He becomes the attractive object to attach hearts to Himself.
FER Yes, but that is all normal so far as I understand it. Christ will be the Sun and centre of the universe of bliss, when all kingdom has come to an end — when there is no necessity for the kingdom.
DLH But in a certain sense those two run side by side?
FER Yes.
JSO Would you not say ‘rule’ is one of the conditions of eternal life?
FER Yes.
JSO You are not looking at it subjectively in us?
FER No, you come under the influence of Christ, as you get in Matthew 11 — “Come unto me, all ye that labour”. That is the only way we can escape lawlessness — by coming under the rule of Christ. If we abide in Him we do not sin, as you get in chapter 3.
JSO I thought you could not abide in Him apart from the Spirit.
FER No, but in a certain sense we are tested down here — we prove ourselves by abiding, but we could not abide in Christ except by the Spirit, because the Spirit is the link which attaches us to Christ. John contemplates that people take that ground, but they are really tested by abiding.
DLH The atmosphere I suppose is “love”.
FER Yes, you come into the circle which is affected by the love of Christ (1 John 3: 16). You get into that atmosphere.
DLH What about “light”?
FER That comes out in chapter 4. You are brought into the full blaze of the light of the revelation of God in its application to us down here. The end of it is that we may have boldness in the day of judgment “because as he is, so are we in this world”. Love is made perfect with us. The bond is something that is effectuated apart from the subjective work in the soul. I do not think anybody is attached to Christ except by the Spirit, but then, it is an extremely important point, because Christ is the Sun of righteousness and if we are attached to Him by the Spirit we have escaped from lawlessness. The proof of it is that you practise righteousness. He that doeth righteousness is righteous.
DLH That is, that you have come into your orbit?
FER Yes, you are down here upon earth moving in the appointed orbit, and you carry out the will of God in that orbit, apart from the will of man.
HCA In the first verse it says, “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ” and in verse 5, “He that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God”. What do you connect with those two?
FER I think the Christ is the expectation of all flesh, but I do not think the thought of the Christ represents the full height of the truth. I think the full height of the truth is that God has come in, Christ is the Son of God.
JSO Would the latter go further than the Jewish faith — “Thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel”.
FER I do not think that comes up to the full height of it.
HCA The second would be the power which sets aside the world system.
FER Yes — God has come in to establish a system which is according to Himself.
JSO The first is proof that he is born of God and the last is connected with victory over the world.
HCA And the last would be a necessity for everyone who is to overcome the world.
Rem The man in John 9 was ready for that revelation.
FER Yes, in a certain sense I suppose he overcame the world, but he had been rather roughly handled by the world. I strongly suspect he was ready for chapter 19 of John.
HCA Would the normal character of things be that you would reach the second by beginning with the first?
FER Yes. I think Christ is presented for faith. “Thus it behoved Christ to suffer” (Luke 24: 46). You get the Christ presented for faith and forgiveness of sins preached in His name, but then, receiving the Spirit you are brought by the Spirit into the knowledge of the Son of God.
Rem He is the Head of every man come in response to the desire of [p. 14] all nations.
FER I think there was expectation in a sense. Man did not exactly know what his want was, but it really was a head to set things right, and the point in this chapter is that God has come in, in the Son.
Ques And if God has come in, it is to establish a new order?
FER Yes — according to His love.
Rem It is evident that the expectation of Christ was not limited to the Jew.
FER I do not think so. You get the expression, “the desire of all nations”.
JSO You would not limit the “anointed” Christ to Israel?
FER No. I think the Jew had altogether a too limited thought of Christ. No doubt He was to be the Son of Abraham and David, but the fact of His being Son of Abraham put Him outside of the Jew — “in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed”.
Rem He was to be the “glory of thy people Israel”.
FER Yes, but He was to be a light to the gentiles. Paul takes it up in Acts 13: 47.
JSO I suppose the “begotten” here goes beyond the idea of being born again and the kingdom?
FER I think so. The expression in the epistle conveys the idea that you are begotten into christianity — begotten of God’s testimony. You are according to God in nature.
JSO From verse 1 to verse 5 we get christianity proper. He begins with “Jesus is the Christ” and ends with “Jesus is the Son of God”.
Ques What is the difference between the Son of God in Psalm 2 and in this chapter?
FER In Psalm 2 it does not go beyond the thought of His authority widening out over the nations — “Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee”. It is according to what you get in the beginning of Matthew and Luke — born into the world ‘incarnate’, God claimed Him at once. He was miraculously born of the Holy Spirit and therefore the moment He was born God [p. 15] claimed Him, but that does not come up to what you get in John’s first epistle chapter 5, it would not fit in at all. Here it is the fact of His proper relation to the Father.
Ques It is the same Person though?
FER Quite so, but looked at from a different point.
Ques Is He not looked at here beyond death?
FER Yes, but not only so, He came to purge death — He came to see to everything.
DLH I should like to ask a question as to the second thought of the Son of God. Although that refers to the introduction of a divine Person into this world, does it not suppose His humanity?
FER I think so. It is always used in regard to Him in that way.
Ques Is one right in saying that the confession of Jesus as the Son of God is the confession of Him where He is now — the victorious One who has overcome the world?
FER Yes.
JMcK Would Peter’s confession come up to what we get in this chapter?
FER Yes, but I think the great point in the Son of God having come is that God has come in. You would not get that in Psalm 2. In John the advent of the Son of God is really God coming in. That is the height of things now, and that I believe to be the true character of the first chapter of John’s gospel. You also get much the same thought in Hebrews — God has spoken unto us by His Son. The Spirit has come to bear witness to the Son of God. The Spirit could not witness to anybody short of a divine Person.
Ques In verse 6, is there any reason why water comes before blood?
FER It seems to emphasise the blood — expiation.
Ques If the blood had not been included here, the question of expiation might have been raised in connection with what the apostle speaks of?
[p. 16] FER Yes. If you get things brought in according to God, you must get expiation. There must be a purging of sins if there is to be any blessing according to God.
Ques What is in the thought of cleansing?
FER In the eye of God you want to be apart from defilement and in your own sense of things too you want to be apart from the defilement of the world. Take Naaman, he had to dip in Jordan seven times. He was defiled — a leper — and what he wanted was cleansing. Forgiveness of sins is preached in the name of the Lord Jesus but when a man turns to God by Christ, he has got cleansing. He goes down into the waters of Jordan in a sense. It is only by the death of Christ that you can get morally free of the world.
Ques Is it not by the same thing that we get free from ourselves?
FER Quite so.
Ques In the history of our souls we begin with the blood?
FER Yes, but what the blood really means is an announcement. An announcement goes out to man — the forgiveness of sins — but there is no announcement as to the cleansing, that comes in by faith in the death of Christ. A man receives the announcement and turns to God and turning to God by the death of Christ, he is cleansed.
Ques What is the force of the expression, “the Spirit is truth”?
FER I think the two are equivalent. The truth is the Spirit or the Spirit is the truth. Christ is the truth objectively, but the Spirit is the truth in the believer. In having the Spirit you really have the truth.
DLH And is it all bound up in the revelation of God?
FER Yes, I think so.
HCA Does verse 5 set forth christian testimony?
FER I think the christian testimony is that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. I believe the proper connection of eternal life is with the [p. 17] age to come. You will find that in all the synoptic gospels but the great point in the epistle of John is that eternal life has come in. Now God has given to us eternal life and this life is in His Son — hence, properly speaking, christians are here a witness to the Son of God. We get eternal life really in faith, and in a way which is morally higher than the way in which millennial saints get it. I do not think it will be quite said of them that they have the Son as we have Him, yet the blessings must be established on the same principles on the part of God.
HCA We have not very much of it in present enjoyment.
FER Well, I think the secret of that is that we are far too much accustomed to look inside, instead of to Christ. The great point is to apprehend what is in Christ. I believe it to be true that we are never called to believe anything about ourselves — the great object of “faith” is Christ.
JSO In the term “age to come” you include the idea of the heavenly part of it?
FER Yes, because all is put under Christ. The most important part is certainly the heavenly city.
JSO And therefore our portion internally is a great deal more than ever could be eternally displayed?
FER Yes, I think so. I think we are undergoing an education at the present time for the function which the city is to fulfil in regard to the world to come.
Ques I suppose the one begotten of God always does overcome the world and he increases in overcoming the world. The portions of it enlarge as we go on?
FER People have different notions of the world. The secret of it is, they fail to apprehend that the Son of God is come, and that in the fact of His having come, there is a new world. He has come as the beginning of another world — that is what people need to apprehend.
DLH But nobody starts with that.
FER No, I do not think there is the power for it; in the case of babes just converted, their ability to apprehend is [p. 18] extremely limited.
DLH And in the nature of things they must be more occupied with themselves and what they have in Christ for themselves?
FER Yes, the first principle we apprehend is that, but it is a long time before we apprehend what Christ is for God, and I do not think any apprehend what Christ is for God until they get into the holiest.
M Is that line of things in John’s gospel — that we may learn what Christ is for God?
FER Yes.
Rem Verse 18 gives what is normal.
FER They are wonderful statements at the close of the chapter — see verse 20. I take it “the true God” is what is genuine — proved to be so by the very fact of revelation. Those who profess in a kind of way to be gods dare not reveal themselves, but the very fact that God has come out proves Him to be the true God.
Ques Are the “idols” just the opposite?
FER Yes. If an idol were made manifest it would prove to be a demon, but the Son of God has come into the presence of man so that He has been seen and known.
DLH Eternal life is presented in the Old Testament as a kind of sphere of things?
FER Yes. You may depend upon it, principles which prevail in the physical universe must prevail in the moral universe. The very first principle of blessing must be rule — like the rule of the sun.
DLH But in the order of creation, light comes first.
FER Yes, but in the order of apprehension light comes last. You begin by coming into righteousness, then you come into the christian circle, then you come into the light (chapter 4).
Ques Will you say one word on, “We are in him that is true”?
FER It explains it immediately afterwards. We are in Christ — abiding in Him.
Ques It is not simply individual?
FER No, I think it takes in the whole company.
“In him” is the true place of the whole company. The great object of John’s writing is to awaken people to the realisation of all that into which they are brought. Many christians find a great difficulty in putting all these things together, John points out that if a christian practises righteousness, he is abiding in Christ — he is righteous as He is righteous. Then, when people are converted they are brought into the christian circle — they love the brethren. Well now, John says they have passed out of death into life. He wakens the believer up to the reality of what he is brought into, then in chapter 4 he takes up the light of God. He says if you love, you know God. Then he unfolds all the full light of divine love. It is really proving what is practical in the christian, and starting from that point to awaken christians to a sense of the atmosphere into which they are brought.
HCA It is like working from the known to the unknown.
FER Yes. The things are known in a certain sense, but not intelligently. John’s point was to bring them into these things intelligently.