THE MOMENT YOU ARE IN CHRIST YOU ARE UNDER RULE
[p. 20] THE MOMENT YOU ARE IN CHRIST YOU ARE UNDER RULE
DLH Would you mind giving a little summary of the epistle, which I suppose is brought to a conclusion when he says “These things have I written unto you ..”. (verse 13).
FER I think the Spirit of God has opened up the conditions in which eternal life consists. They were always there, but by the work of God in a believer, he becomes conscious of the conditions by which he is surrounded, and upon which he is dependent. In that way he became conscious that he has eternal life. God has established all the conditions of life in Christ and the point is for us to enter into them.
Ques Does he not seem to give three very different reasons for writing this epistle? “That your joy may be full”, (chapter 1: 4), “Because your sins are forgiven you”, (chapter 2: 12) and “that ye may know that ye have eternal life” (chapter 5: 13).
FER The second one is because he writes — the ground. I think in chapter 1 you get the great basis of fellowship and in chapter 2 the apostle addresses them according to the degree in which they were in accord with him. He takes them up in that way — in different classes — babes, young men, and fathers. That indicates the measure in which they were in accord with the apostle, and because they are in accord with him, he addresses them, I think. Chapters 3 and 4 give the elements of eternal life. They show the conditions which God has established in order that those conditions may be life to us. The first important condition is the rule of Christ. It is in that way we get salvation from sin and the wicked one. The next condition is the christian circle through which we get salvation from the world and the third is the full light of God. Chapter 4 is the full light of God coming in. God has said, “Let there be light”
[p. 21] and light has come to pass. It is very much like it was at the beginning, in Genesis 1: 3.
Ques Do you mean the revelation of what God is?
FER The revelation of what God is in its application to us. Not simply the abstract idea that God is love, but you get the love in its application to us down here from beginning to end. Light is one of the essential conditions of life, and if we love, we love in light.
Ques And is the application of the love of God to us, light?
FER Quite so, and you get the bearing of it in regard to us — it is that in which we love.
JSO And the light is inseparable from the knowledge of God.
FER Quite so. If you had not the capability, the light would be useless, just as it would be if a new-born child were blind.
DLH The light would be of no benefit to us. Does not that correspond with what Peter speaks of — being brought to God — brought into God’s own circle, to His side of things?
FER Yes, “that ye might set forth the excellencies of him who has called you out of darkness to his wonderful light” 1 Peter 2: 9. His wonderful light is the revelation of Himself.
DLH I suppose nobody begins there.
FER No, you do not begin there as to your consciousness of things but everything is there.
DLH I suppose we all begin pretty much on our own side.
FER We must do. There is no capability otherwise. A man is convicted in conscience and brought to a sense of what he is in relation to God, and the only possible way that he can be met is on the ground of grace.
JSO “The increase of God”, Colossians 2: 19. Would that give you the idea of growth in the knowledge of God?
FER Yes.
DLH I suppose you get various expressions in [p. 22] other parts of Scripture pretty much answering to what you get here like being “brought to God” in Peter?
FER Yes, because all the writers are presenting christianity. Each presents his own things in a particular point of view, but at the same time, they are all teaching christianity — they are not adverse. You get three prominent thoughts in the Old Testament — blessing, dwelling and ruling. Blessing in Abraham, dwelling in Israel, and ruling in David but you get all these three thoughts taken up, I have no doubt whatever, in Christ — eternal life. They are all fulfilled in a way, only you get them in the converse order, because God begins with rule — He establishes rule, consequent upon that you get God dwelling, then you get the blessing. I suppose it is referred to in Psalm 133, “There hath Jehovah commanded the blessing, life for evermore” (verse 3). The point is that all things have come in now. You have got the dwelling, and so you get the ruling and blessing.
DLH And that brings us to the witness?
FER Yes. It is because we are in the blessing that we get the witness — in having the Son we are brought into blessing and hence it is, we are witness to the Son.
DLH So that we anticipate what will come out fully in the world to come?
FER I think so — what will be fulfilled publicly is really brought to pass spiritually now, because Christ is there.
DLH And now the great question is having the Son.
FER Yes, of course, we have the Son and He has “given us an understanding that we should know him that [is] true; and we are in him that [is] true, in his Son Jesus Christ”. 1 John 5: 20.
Rem I suppose we get the advantage of that in the Spirit. The Spirit is the truth — we have the Spirit.
FER Exactly. The Spirit is witness because the Spirit is the truth. I take it the connection is that the Spirit is witness to Christ as last Adam, as the Son of God. Of course, the Son of God is not here, but the [p. 23] Spirit has become a witness of the Son of God. We have the triple witness — the Spirit, the water and the blood — all as witness to the Son, the last Adam.
DLH Do you think that the conditions of eternal life which you have spoken of, come out in contrast with things that are opposite?
FER Yes, exactly, because rule comes in to do away with lawlessness. Christ is the “Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world” John 1: 29. He brings rule in and in that way abolishes lawlessness.
Ques Where is the rule found now?
FER In the hand of Christ. You are “married to another”, Romans 7.
Ques Would you say it is found in 1 John 2?
FER I would say it is found in chapter 3. If you abide in Christ you do not sin, you have escaped from lawlessness — that is the first great thing. People are like fragments flying about in space without any attachment — they are lawless. Christ has been manifested to take away our sins and in Him is no sin, and if you abide in Christ you come under rule.
DLH You were saying last time that rule is what is normal — not necessarily the putting down of evil.
FER How do we stand on the earth? It is by the influence of rule. Why do we get rain? It is all by the influence of rule in the universe around us.
DLH Now with regard to the idea of eternal life, about the “hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before the ages of time” Titus 1: 2. That, of course, carries us back to a period before any sin came in at all, before death came in.
FER Yes, but everything God has proposed in Christ.
HCA Then would not eternal life be in view after all those things have passed away?
FER I do not think that is the idea. All God’s purposes were centred in the last Adam, Christ. God set Adam, the innocent man, upon the scene first, but God had in His counsel the last Adam. You get the type [p. 24] of Christ and the church in Adam and Eve before sin came in — it was the last Adam that was in the mind of God.
HCA If it existed in the mind of God before, does it not continue to exist after sin came in?
FER Other things come in I have no doubt, a new heaven and a new earth were in the mind of God, so far as that goes.
DLH When you say other things come in, what do you have in your mind?
FER Changes come in. For instance, we are changed — “we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed”, 1 Corinthians 15: 51, and will go to heaven. Then again changes come in in regard to the earth — there is to be a new heaven and a new earth. Things have been interfered with by the working of evil and I think Scripture brings before us the working out of God’s ways and the bringing of the heaven and the earth into harmony. We really know very little about what is beyond. We have only just the bare statement of what is to be, and it does not occupy very many verses in Scripture.
JSO You could hardly conceive of anything more wonderful than what you get in the epistle of John.
FER Morally, I do not think you could, but at the same time, looking at it from another point of view, you get a new heaven and new earth in which righteousness dwells, where evil is completely abolished and where there is no more death.
JSO But when you get to the Person it seems to me you are beyond all dispensational ideas.
FER Yes, but He takes a place in regard to dispensations — He is the One in whom all things are headed up.
JSO It seems to me that the epistle of John carries you beyond the mere display of things to what must be moral.
FER I think all John’s writings take the down line. They are in contrast to those of Paul — who takes [p. 25] the up line. The nature of all John’s writings is the bringing in of the Son of God into the world.
JSO That is true, but still, when we are transferred from the place into which God has been brought and where He has been revealed, you could hardly conceive that the blessing will be greater in the higher scene — heaven.
FER No. But I do not think John takes you up there. I do not think anybody knows or can know what we will have in heaven. Paul was caught up into heaven, and he heard unspeakable words which it was not lawful for him to utter. Therefore there must be very wonderful things in heaven.
DLH In order to understand a subject like eternal life you have to take notice of the mould in which it is cast, I mean all the surroundings in which it is often spoken of.
FER Yes, it is connected with the glory of God and the triumph of God over all that has come in. But the Son of God is the One by whom the glory of God is established and by whom all that is not of God is set aside.
Ques Would you accept the last chapter of the epistle as the down line? Please explain it.
FER I think we are here as the witness. In a future day God will command the blessing in Zion, and the revelation of God and the vessel of blessing is all found in Christ, but meanwhile we are left here in witness to Him.
Ques Would you say a word on being in Him on the down line?
FER We abide in Him. No one is safe unless he abides in Him. You cannot escape from lawlessness except by abiding in Christ. It is really the secret of deliverance from the lawlessness of the world and the power of the wicked one. I do not think people quite appreciate rule somehow.
DLH Well, we ought to appreciate it, certainly.
FER It is the only thing in which you can possibly [p. 26] escape from lawlessness. Everything in the universe can be classed under two heads — rule or lawlessness. You are either in rule or lawlessness, and the only escape from lawlessness is by coming into rule. And the way of coming into rule is by being attached to Christ — you have the Spirit of Christ. A man is in righteousness because he has come into rule, and in that way he has escaped lawlessness.
Ques Would one under rule be marked by love to the brethren and the practice of righteousness?
FER The practice of righteousness. “He that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous”. To put it in simple, plain language you are here simply to do the will of God.
Rem The loving one another is really the practise of righteousness.
FER Well, it is, but the two things are put distinct in that chapter.
JSO It is rather the result here of the fact that he is begotten of God.
FER Yes. You must have the child born into the conditions. All the conditions of love were established before ever the child came into them.
JSO And you must have the nature which the conditions set forth?
FER Yes, the conditions and the one who is begotten into these conditions exactly correspond.
HCA In reference to eternal life, would you say that Christ’s coming down here was that it might be known in the present time?
FER I think it is that which God intended to establish before the world was for the blessing of man. He loved man, and it was His purpose to establish eternal life for the blessing of man, and I think God has done it. Of course, it is all spiritual in the present time. Our being subject to Christ is spiritual. You cannot be subject to Christ like you have subjection in this world — it is all spiritual. Then again, our relations to one another in connection with God and dwelling in [p. 27] the house of God are spiritual. We have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren, but our connection with the brethren is spiritual not as in a family.
DLH So that we have got already the powers of the world to come?
FER Yes, all the elements are present only in a spiritual way. I do not think we can be worse off than they will be in the millennium, on the other hand, we are better off, because we have everything in a spiritual way.
DLH What about the knowledge of the Father?
FER You get the revelation of divine love in its application to us — as the apostle says, “We have seen, and testify, that the Father has sent the Son [as] Saviour of the world”. You could not know the love of God apart from the Father and the Son. It is the revelation of God — the Father and the Son — which gives us the apprehension of the love of God.
JSO Would not the Father’s house give the idea of the consummation of the blessing of that?
FER I think that surpasses everything that we know down here.
JSO You mean surpass in the way that the conditions are changed?
FER Quite so. So I think being with the Father in the Father’s own house must surpass anything that one can know down here.
JSO Would you sever the idea of that from eternal life at all?
FER I think all that is going on now is a kind of education to suit us for scenes above.
Ques The revelation greater then, than now?
FER No. I think when God has got you into His own habitation, you must come into enjoyments which you could not come into down here in the scene of exercises. It is a scene where everything is ordered according to God’s mind. ‘There no stranger God shall meet thee’.
Rem A great deal of the energy of the Spirit [p. 28] now is spent in resisting the flesh.
FER Yes, then God is known to us a great deal in the present time in the way of discipline. Of course, that will not be the case above. Then you cannot have love made perfect with you in the day of judgment.
DLH The Father’s house is rather on the up line, is it not?
FER I think it is, yet it is almost the only allusion you get on the part of John to our place above.
JSO That is what I meant. In regard to the down line one quite agrees, only does not the Father’s house give you the enjoyment of the fulness and completeness of blessings which have been brought to you on the down line here?
FER I think it will be very different up there. The whole position of saints and everything will be so completely changed — we shall reign in life through Him.
DLH Would you carry that thought into eternity?
FER I do not think it is carried into eternity. It is all connected with the world to come.
JSO You do not think the Father’s house will be limited to the world to come?
FER No, the Father’s house will take in the universe.
J.S.O. But for us?
FER Oh no. Because we come into what is final and eternal in the Father’s house.
Ques Would the many mansions bring in every family in the Father’s house?
FER Yes. I suppose so.
DLH With regard to the children in chapter 2 they are said to know the Father. How far ought we to carry that?
FER I think it is so to speak, the first principle of christianity; because christianity is faith in the Son of God. The glad tidings is concerning God’s Son and the first principle of christianity is that you know the Father.
DLH How do the children reach the circle that we have been [p. 29] speaking about?
FER I think John is writing to awaken them to it. The defect was they had not learned to put things together. So with people at the present day — everything is there, but they have not learned to put things together.
DLH And sometimes the teachers set to work to put them together, and mix up things in people’s minds.
FER I do not think anybody but the Spirit of God can put things together. Take those three simple thoughts — ruling, dwelling and blessing — if they are put together in your own soul so that each one is available to you, then it is that you become conscious of them in eternal life. We had a very interesting reading in Manchester on the concurrence of eternal life and salvation — the two are necessarily concurrent. If you come into all that of which eternal life consists, you come of necessity into salvation. If you come under rule you are saved from lawlessness. In the christian circle there is salvation from the world.
Ques How do you account for things not being put together in our souls?
FER I do not know. It is a very great grace when it is done. I am sure I can thank God even for the little way in which these things have been put together. Things have been extremely difficult on account of that from which we have escaped. Everything that is of God really in the common thought of people is connected with the world.
JSO There has been a way of applying mighty truths almost irrespective of the way in which people have been going on.
FER Yes, and it is damaging in the extreme. Objective and subjective must go together. A creature, being a creature cannot do without rule, nor without an atmosphere and cannot do without light.
Ques So that attachment to Christ would be important, would it?
FER It is the first principle. The way of God is to present to you attraction in Christ, but the object of it is [p. 30] to attract you to Christ that you may be attached to Christ by the Spirit so that you are in Christ and the moment you are in Christ you are under rule.
Rem In that way things get put together.
FER Yes. You are under rule and you are no longer lawless, you are righteous as He is righteous.
JSO When you speak of attachment to Christ, you do not mean reaching any great point?
FER No, it is only like the moon being attached to the earth.
JSO It is really the proper normal order — christianity on the subjective and objective side?
FER Yes, every believer is attached to Christ, and being attached you abide, and then you come under rule.