READINGS ON THE FIRST EPISTLE OF JOHN (5)
[p. 317] READINGS ON THE FIRST EPISTLE OF JOHN (5)
FER We come in this chapter to the climax, that is, to the thought of witness. It is a very important consideration that God intended to establish a witness here to His Son, while the Son is absent, and that is in that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
JP So that the testimony is in the fact of saints being in eternal life.
FER I think so. It is witness that the Son of God has come. That is, that there are those here who have eternal life. You see, if we are not in the good of it the witness is obscured. The putting a witness in the witness box, in itself, means nothing; everything depends on the witness which the witness bears. So you want to hear what christians have to say. That is where the witness comes out.
Ques Is the object of the witness that the world may believe that God has sent the Son?
FER Yes.
GWH It shows there is a very poor witness going out today.
FER It is as if the saints were in the witness box and giving no witness.
Rem A very confused testimony.
FER Very.
GR What is the force in the connection at the beginning of verse 10 of “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself”?
FER That is the Spirit, I take it. We must have the witness in ourselves in order that we may be a witness.
WM Do you look on verse 11 as giving the witness?
FER One must have the witness in himself first, then it follows, “he that believeth not God hath made [p. 318] him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”. We first have the witness in ourselves and then we become witnesses.
WM Does the latter clause of verse 10, “because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son”, mean that the person refuses this witness which comes out in the saints?
FER Apparently.
GWH Then there are two witnesses. The Spirit witnesses in us, and we are witnesses in the world.
FER It is what we get in John 17, “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me”. The unity of saints was the testimony to the world that the Father sent the Son. What you will find is this, that every part of what we have had before us is used to enforce our obligation to one another.
GWH Would you say you see that coming out in the second chapter of the Acts?
FER Yes. If you take the thought that we abide in Christ, it is used to enforce the obligation to love one another. The same is true in the christian circle; and then again, if you are in the light of divine love, it is used to enforce the obligation to love one another. “Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God”. Then, if we love one another, the effect is unity, and thus you get the witness to the world. Suppose we appreciate our bond to Christ, and our place in the christian circle, and are in the light of the Spirit, every part tends to emphasise our obligation to love one another. Not only do we know the centre, but we keep the circle, and thus are a testimony to the world. “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another”. But that could not possibly be if we had not the witness in ourselves.
[p. 319] Rem The three that bear witness: I suppose that is toward us individually.
FER That is in us.
Ques What is the force of the threefold witness, the Spirit, the water and the blood?
FER They are one.
GR In what way do they witness to each one now?
FER The Spirit brings you into attachment; the water brings you into the christian circle, and the blood is the witness of the love of God as seen in the new covenant.
Ques Is the force of the water here the same as in John 13?
FER Cleansing. Christ came by water and blood, in the way of witness. The water is the witness that He has overcome the world, and the blood that He has brought out the love of God, in expiation.
LTF How is the water the witness that He has overcome the world?
FER He died rather than succumb to the world. He died to it. But then His death is water to us because by it we die to the world. If Christ had not died to it we could not die to it. Hence the death of Christ is water to us, the witness that the world has been overcome. The Lord Jesus said, “Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world”. In death Christ bore all that which lay upon us, but at the same time He overcame the world. We overcome the world by accepting death to it.
Ques Is that the same water as we get in Romans 6 for practical application?
FER It is the moral significance of baptism, I take it. “The like figure whereunto even baptism” (that is, water) “doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ”.
WM I suppose the water coming from Christ in death carries with it purifying power?
FER Yes, it does that because it is a witness. You [p. 320] must remember that there are three that bear witness. The water and the blood bear witness. They bear witness, and all three agree in one.
WM Does it mean they each bear witness separately and yet they all agree?
FER Yes, but what witness do they bear? The witness of the Spirit is evident enough. It bears witness to Christ in heaven, the centre; the water, to the world overcome; the blood, to the love of God, which has given expiation.
WM Why does it say they agree in one?
FER That God has given to us eternal life. It is one testimony in us to that effect. If you are brought into attachment to Christ and into the christian circle, and into the light of the Spirit, you are in the conditions of eternal life.
GR It seems to me if we were in the power of these three things we would certainly be in the sphere of eternal life.
FER Exactly, you would be abiding in eternal life and eternal life in you. And then you have the witness, and that comes out in our affection for one another; unity; that is what the world can understand; it cannot understand eternal life, but it can see the unity of saints.
WB-t You were speaking of the unity of the circle and maintaining it; is that individual responsibility?
FER I think so.
GWH Referring to what you just said, we get the three conditions of eternal life.
FER Yes, but it is the summing up with a view to presenting the witness.
WM Does this tenth verse mean that this witness is apprehended individually?
FER Yes, it is “he”; that is, individual.
WM And all that is witnessed comes to the individual.
FER “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself;” then the witness to the Son in that God hath given to us eternal life.
WM It comes out in the saints.
FER In the circle.
WM And what is true of the circle is apprehended by each individual in the circle.
FER Yes, and it brings about unity because every condition will accentuate unity. You find that taken up in the two previous chapters; everything that comes out is employed by the Spirit to emphasise our obligation to love one another.
GR The thought of witness would be embodied in these words, “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples if ye have love one to another”. That would be pretty clearly seen.
FER That is what the Lord spoke of.
JSA As the great hindrance to unity is the allowance of individual will, so attachment to Christ is the first great principle in producing it.
FER Yes, you get no love without righteousness. There must be attachment first. If you have not a centre or do not maintain your own proper relation to the centre, you will not be right in the circle. All being right in the circle depends on all being in relation to the centre.
RSS So it is righteousness, faith, love, peace; righteousness comes first.
FER Always. A soldier pierced Christ’s side and forthwith there came out blood and water. I think that is a wonderful statement; a wanton act of violence on the part of a soldier was answered by, “forthwith there came out blood and water”. The blood witnesses to divine love and the water that the world was overcome.
WB-s Why does he speak there of bearing record to what has been seen, “He that saw it bare record”?
FER He saw it and understood its significance; it was not hearsay. He that saw it bare record.
[p. 322] Ques Is not John the only one that gives the moral significance of overcoming the world?
FER He is the one that gives that significance.
Ques I was thinking of the verse in the earlier part of this chapter, “and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith”. What is our faith?
FER “He that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God”.
GR Can you give us a reason why the water is reversed in the epistle from the gospel in connection with the blood?
FER Because the epistle takes the order of the first two chapters, that is the moral order, the Spirit, the water and the blood. First we are brought into righteousness; then by the water into the christian circle, and the blood is the witness to the love of God.
JSA The idea in the water and the blood here is not so much the efficacy as the teaching of it.
WM I suppose Noah’s position was altogether altered by water.
FER No doubt it was. In a sense the water of death coming on the world was to him the means of salvation. So with the death of Christ; it is the destruction of the world as the world is, but to us it is the way of cleansing. That is, that we accept it and pass through it in baptism; it means you are buried; and if you are buried you have ceased to live in that in which we have been living, and that is the way you overcome the world; not by fighting against it. Take a christian in Congress or Parliament; he does not overcome; they overcome him. It is not the way by which Christ overcame the world; He overcame the world because He did not succumb to it. So it is in regard to us. I do not care to have reputation or to be thought something of according to the flesh. I have ceased to live in that order of things.
GR You are not anxious for a niche in the ‘Hall of Fame’.
Ques Does not Peter contemplate victory over the world when he says, “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us”?
FER Yes, it is in the same connection.
WM What is the significance of bringing in here verse 9, “if we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater”. The witness of God is eternal life in the saints.
FER It is a great witness, not simply by word, but by what saints are, and what is found in them, it was a great witness at the beginning. The saints at the beginning, although they might not have been very intelligent, were really in the conditions which God had ordained. They were in the conditions, and the conditions were in them, and the witness was clear and distinct. They maintained that God had given to them eternal life but this life was in His Son. They would have said that they had the Son.
WM And it might have been said, “they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world”.
FER Exactly. Unity was maintained, they even had all things common. None said that anything he had was his own. They were continuing steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and prayers. There was the witness that God gave to the Son. It was fulfilled.
Ques “The witness of men”; was that the witness of the apostles themselves?
FER No. It is the witness of men abstractly. People do receive the witness of men.
WM I suppose the witness was there that God might say, ‘that is My mind for all men’.
FER Exactly. But there is another important point, it is the witness that the Son of God has come. You cannot conceive of anything so important as that. Things are not as they were previous to the coming of the Son of God. It means that God is no more testing things, but the time has come when God is establishing everything. The centre has come on whom everything depends.
[p. 324] So in the epistle to the Hebrews, “ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel”. They are dependent on the Son of God having come.
JSA In connection with the statement “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” I think the statement of the apostle Paul in Galatians is very interesting, “The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me”. He overcame the world.
GWH By overcoming it, do you mean you are dead to it?
FER Overcoming it means that it does not overcome you.
GWH Like you get in chapter 6 of Galatians, “But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world”.
FER Exactly. That is, the apostle held the world crucified, and the world held the apostle crucified. The world did not overcome him, but he overcame the world, The way in which you overcome the world is by ceasing to live in it. People who attempt to set the world right will be themselves set wrong.
Rem The more one grows the more you find it is difficult to live on earth and not live in the world.
FER It is difficult. It is a great thing where you have not anything to maintain.
JSA Even religiously.
FER Religiously, socially or any way. No rights, no character, no reputation or anything to [p. 325] maintain.
WM A person of that character would scarcely get a monument in the world when dead.
GR I suppose Stephen was an example.
FER But he died to it.
GWH I suppose your having no interest here is because they are all transferred up there.
FER Exactly, Christ has died to the world.
WM I suppose it is by something more positive than death; it is by coming into the light of another world.
FER Yes. If you were not in the light of Christ you would not be prepared to accept death to the world. If you have come into the light of the moral universe of which Christ is the centre you accept death to the world; for in which world are you going to be conspicuous? In this or in God’s world?
JSA And that is better than any monument here.
Ques Is that the substance of Philippians 3, “That I may know him”?
FER Yes. Do you think the apostle went and told everyone he was a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee? He broke down when he talked that way, later on he rejects it.
GR It comes out in the gospel, where the Lord tells them who was the greatest; He took a little child.
FER That is where we have to come to. If we want to be the greatest in God’s world we have to serve one another. You go through the world ‘as hireling fills his day’, not taking advantage of any position in the world to magnify yourself. You have ceased to live in the world.
RSS When you were last in this country I remember you were saying, you took account of yourself not before men but before God, and I think that was helpful to many of us.
FER Yes. The Lord, with every possible right and title down here, made nothing of Himself. He did not come into the world in connection with the high-born; but was known as the carpenter’s [p. 326] son.
WB-t Is there not such a thing as deciding this matter for oneself?
FER I think so.
Rem I am afraid we keep up a good many things that ought to go into the dust bin.
FER Very likely. The poor are better off in that way because they cannot talk much about friends or position. I do not think that you can much realise cleansing from the world except in the christian circle. It is there you realise that you belong to another order of things and in connection with that your thought is to be efficient. I like a man that is efficient, but the sort of efficiency one would appreciate is efficiency in the christian circle.
JP I suppose the washing of regeneration comes in there.
FER Exactly. “He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit”.
JSA A man must live in one world or the other.
FER Yes, it is evident that people try to live in both. I do not think they succeed.
GE Does not that scripture in Titus emphasise that salvation is connected with the present?
FER Yes, but salvation really lies in the christian circle.
GR I mean it is not for eternity.
FER No; it is salvation from the world, and the power that works in the world, and that is realised in the christian circle, where Christ is; and baptism brings you into that; and I have no doubt that is why the figure of water is employed here; Christ came by water.
JSA But if a man is brought into it by baptism he must live in it to be in the good of salvation.
GR And that is where the renewing of the Spirit comes in; that is clearly for the present.
FER I think so.
WM What is the force of the three expressions in the end of chapter 5, “we know”, “we know”, “we know”?
FER It is a summing up.
WM You spoke of chapters three and four giving the substance of eternal life. What does chapter five give, the end itself?
FER It gives the witness. If we have the substance, the point is that we should be here in witness. Supposing God has given us everything, what are we going to be for God? Witness. God will have a witness here to His Son because the Son has come, and the church is left in that place.
Ques I would like to ask in connection with petitioning here, does that come in in reference to the bearing of witness, “if we ask anything”?
FER The apostle shows us how the confidence we have in Him expresses itself.
JSA Speaking of “the witness”, do you think it comes in in connection with the gospel, that you should point to the witnesses in that way?
FER The apostles could point to the saints. Christians were known. The word of God sounded out from the church through the whole world. They were witnesses to the Son in that way. It was not that they preached it, but morally it sounded out from them.
JP That is, the anointed vessel set the oracles in vibration.
FER That is it exactly. The temple and the oracles were there, and the light was set in vibration by the gifts in the body.
Rem The present condition of the witness hinders the gospel.
FER Largely. People wonder why there are not better effects from the preaching of the gospel. I say it is because of the state of the witness.
WM It gives one a sense of the weakness there is.
FER Yes. The gospel preachers are not concerned enough about the witness.
JP I think what you say, we are very little impressed with the fact that the Son of God has come.
FER [p. 328] And the reason we are so little impressed is because of the poverty of the witness. The word of God sounded out in the early days. How poorly it is sounding out now!
Ques Do you think God is accomplishing His purposes largely independent of the feeble witness?
FER I cannot tell. God will surely accomplish His purposes. There is no doubt it is the end of the dispensation, and what is going on now is largely the gathering in of the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. I do not think striking results are likely to be seen. A kind of sorting is going on, like as in the net brought in, and there is gathering the good into vessels and casting away the bad.
JSA If we are sensible of the weakness of the witness, all we can do is to see to it that we are in the good of the thing ourselves.
FER What I would strongly object to is an effort to set up a small witness. You must admit the circle is broken and obscured, but all we can do is individually to keep ourselves right in relation to the centre.
WM The Son of God has come.
FER Yes, and we are not lawless; we are in attachment.
Ques Do we get the correction of that in 2 Timothy?
FER I think so, and in that way you seek to be a vessel unto honour sanctified and meet for the Master’s use and prepared unto every good work. You are in attachment and so it is you follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, not with the entire circle, but with those that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
GR Is it not illustrated in the remnant in Malachi, “they that feared the Lord”, that is attachment, “spake often one to another”, they had the circle in a sense?
Ques And is it not also alluded to in Luke 2 where the remnant were waiting for the Redeemer?
FER I think so. Of course there is always a difficulty, in connection with the church, in speaking of a [p. 329] remnant. In Israel the remnant really consisted of all the godly. Now brethren are not a remnant because there are a great many really in the church who are not among brethren. We are so liable to get into a kind of brethrenism. You must recognise the entire circle. We can stand in our relation to the centre.
WM So the only company we could recognise in Indianapolis is all the christians in Indianapolis.
FER Quite so. You cannot have an inner circle.
JF What would answer to us would be, “Keep yourselves in the love of God”.
FER Yes. You get the Holy Spirit, God and Christ. You pray in the Holy Spirit; you keep yourselves in the love of God, and look for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
WB-s How about going along with those who profess to be in the principles of 2 Timothy 2?
FER I think the only way to get on according to the passage you quote is to be right in relation to the centre. The apostle says, “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee”. The point is to look to yourself and the doctrine. I suppose if every one of us had that in mind it would be better.
GWH And to know Him that is true, in contrast with all the failure around.
FER Quite so.
RML Would you say a word about calling on the Lord out of a pure heart?
FER You look for people in whom there is a work of God. You cannot take people up simply on the ground of profession. You must follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. It appears to me that a pure heart is evidence of a work of God. You must look for that now.
RML A christian in system might say he called on the Lord out of a pure [p. 330] heart.
FER But he is not right as to the centre. He connects Christ with this world, but Christ is the centre of another world. He is, so far, lawless, in his own sense of things. Christ is the beginning and centre morally of another world.
JSA It is not what a man says he is, but what he really is, and you must form a judgment of that if you are going to walk with him.
WB-s How does individual service stand in regard to the circle?
FER I think it is simple. We do all we can to serve one another and indeed serve everybody.
GWH “Let us do good unto all men, especially to them who are of the household of faith”.
Ques What claim have those in the church who are lawless, on the servants?
FER You must be a little careful about their being lawless, because except as to their intelligence and conduct, you cannot speak of that. If I speak of a man as being lawless that man is not in attachment at all. I could not speak of every man with whom I cannot walk as being lawless absolutely.
Ques Well then servants are servants of the entire church. Then what claim have christians in system on the servants of God?
FER Every claim. The responsibility of the servant is toward all. You are bound to serve every christian.
OO'B You do not mean by that, if those in a system claimed me to go in and preach the gospel in their system, that I should go.
FER I know that question has been raised. The best answer I ever heard given was by Mr. Darby. He objected to going into chapels because it did not appear to him quite honest; for if he went and preached there what he desired to preach, it would have the effect of bringing the chapel about people’s ears, and he did not feel it was quite honest.
OO'B Well he told me another thing in regard to his going into them in Chicago. ‘I did go, but I will never go again’. He believed the whole thing was wrong.
FER I have heard him take that ground in regard to America. You cannot build again the things you have destroyed. So as to preaching in theatres; the theatre managers are well pleased to get preaching in the theatres because it puts a sanction on the theatre; and people argue in the same way. I have no doubt whatever that the mass of people if they saw preachers in the theatres would argue, they do not think so badly about the theatres. It is a mistake to make use of such places for the work of the Lord.
Rem The situation is difficult.
FER It is difficult. In the peculiar position we occupy in relation to christendom, our path is difficult and nothing but divine guidance can keep us right in the path. It is a fatal mistake for people to think they are coming out to an easy path.
Ques What do you think of going into the street?
FER I think the street is as good as any place if it is open to you. I would not care to go if it meant having an altercation with the authorities, but if the street or any place is free there is nothing morally against it. My reason against theatres is a moral one, but there is nothing moral against the street or any open place.
WM You would hardly accept a permit from a magistrate to do it.
FER I think that is hardly the thing. You do not want the protection of the world.
JSA But if the path is difficult it is equally true that God will carry out His purposes no matter what the difficulties.
Rem I think we would all have liked to live in a time when things were easy.
FER You are not likely to get things easy at the end of a dispensation.
OO'B There are difficulties about a permit. For [p. 332] instance a man would stand up with a Bible in his hand and begin to preach and he is simply preaching nihilism or communism. The authorities of Chicago said, ‘We want to stop that, and if any of you want to preach the gospel you must get a permit because we want to stop these other things’.
FER But you are making the world judge of right and wrong. I do not care about the world’s judgment, but I think I see what you mean. If anybody chooses to get a permit in that way I would not object.
JP Because it is the very thing to save you from an altercation with the authorities. It leaves you in quietness and peace to preach the gospel.
JSA You have to get permission in some places abroad to hold any kind of a meeting.
FER If it is a question of government and order I do not see any objection to it.
GR It is not exactly seeking the protection of the government.
Rem I think in many places they have these permits to maintain order.
FER I do not see any difficulty about it then. I do not think brethren want to get the renown of being disorderly.
RSS Would you say a word as to the closing verses, the true God and eternal life?
FER Christ is both. He is the true God and He is the Sun of righteousness, and I defy anybody to draw a line between Christ as God and Christ as Man, as you get Him presented in this epistle. The two are so blended. The same One who is the last Adam, the Sun of righteousness, is divine.
JP You can only understand the language in the epistle as you recognise what you have said.
WM “We are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ”.
FER You are in God. It is one of the beauties of John’s epistle. The truth of the incarnation is that a [p. 333] divine Person in the Godhead has assumed manhood. I believe the old notion of the union of God and man to be wrong. I do not think it was meant wrongly, but, in the light of what has come out now, it was incorrect. What I do believe is, what Scripture states, that a divine Person in the unity of the Godhead assumed manhood, never ceasing by it to be a divine Person and in the unity of the Godhead.
JSA That is a very important point that is often overlooked.
FER It is not a moral impossibility that He should assume another condition, that is, the condition of manhood, but He never could cease to be in the unity of the Godhead.
WM So when it says God is a spirit, it means Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
FER Yes, and Jesus, the true God, means God revealed.
GR So that if He were not still in the unity of the Godhead we should not know God.
FER “The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him”, that is, declared God.
WB-s Why is this last admonition brought in here, “Little children, keep yourselves from idols”?
FER The point is, “We are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life”. I think I can understand the admonition to keep yourselves from idols. The fact is, Christ will have undivided authority in the heart, and therefore you have to be uncommonly careful lest you cherish any kind of idol; a child, your house, your business may be an idol.
J.W.P. What is an idol?
FER A child, or business or anything else may be an idol.
JWP We have in the Dutch a good expression, something that keeps you away [p. 334] from God.
FER I think it is something that disputes the authority of Christ.
Ques What is the meaning of this expression, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not”; does it mean, does not practise sin?
FER Yes, he does not practise sin.