READINGS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (2)
READINGS ON THE GOSPEL OF JOHN (2)
GR Would you not say that in this chapter there is a very distinct order?
FER I think so. It is in one sense a pity that the gospel is divided into chapters; it is more a series of subjects.
RSS Would you give us a little idea of those subjects?
FER The first two chapters are the confirmation of everything, on the ground of resurrection, to the Jew. Then in the third and fourth chapters the Jew is done with in a sense, for the time being, and it is the world that is in view. In the third chapter it contemplates man in darkness and in the fourth chapter in thirst. The two moral conditions in which the world was are darkness and thirst. Then we see the way in which God has come in to meet these conditions. The third chapter brings in light, and the fourth living water — the light to dissipate the darkness, and the living water to meet thirst.
RSS Is the love of God the light?
FER Yes, the testimony of God’s love in the death of Christ. Christ is the light and the light has come into darkness. Then in the fourth chapter Christ gives living water. You may depend upon it where darkness is there is thirst. On the other hand where light is there is satisfaction. We know it in natural things. People in darkness do not know where they are going; they are not content or easy — but when you come into light you get a kind of satisfaction.
WM I suppose the sun is the source of light for this universe, and darkness seems to characterise the Old Testament to a large degree.
FER Of course God gave them glimpses of light. He sustained them with hopes and expectations, but what has come in now is that the darkness is passing and the true [p. 27] light now shines. We have now the light of day, and living water. That is what meets the condition of unrest and thirst in man. The woman at Sychar was a typical person, representing people of the world running after this thing and that thing, excitement and pleasure, and all that is going on here. But the Lord proposes what would bring in unfailing satisfaction, “the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life”.
RSS He referred to the Spirit when He said that, but in what way?
FER As an energy in the believer, like a well of water, so that you may understand your relation to Christ. The Spirit brings you into attachment, then you understand by the Spirit, what Christ is to you, for Christ is eternal life. It never could be said we have that in us; Christ is eternal life and the Spirit springs up in us so that we appreciate what Christ is to us. It is thus we come into eternal life.
WLP “Springing up into eternal life”. Is that the understanding of eternal life now?
FER I think it is the understanding and appreciation of the conditions which God has established in Christ. In Christ God has established conditions in which it is possible for man to live morally. That is what we can see, and the Spirit is a well of water in the believer that, springing up, brings you into the understanding and appreciation of those conditions. No one ever had everlasting life except by an indwelling Spirit, that is the Spring in us. Paul’s testimony was in principle just the same, “he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting”.
JSA Life whether natural or spiritual is characterised by conditions.
FER Wholly dependent on conditions and none of us could live apart from those conditions. Spiritually these conditions subsist in Christ. When He comes into the world again it will be the same. Eternal life will have its [p. 28] own place here upon earth as the Lord said, “in the coming age life eternal”, and again you get it in the expression “In hope of eternal life”.
JSA Would it be out of place to mention some of those conditions now?
FER The conditions are illustrated by what is essential in natural life. The first is rule, the second is atmosphere and the third is light. These are essential to life morally, as naturally.
WM I suppose you hardly get these in the gospel of John, but in the epistle.
FER I think so. The gospel brings out more the kind of person who has it, the epistle what he has.
GR Do you connect rule with what we had this morning — attachment?
FER It is the effect of attachment. Whatever is brought into attachment comes under rule as whatever is attached to the sun comes under the rule of the sun. So it is regarding believers. As the apostle says, “not as without law to God, but as legitimately subject to Christ”. Every inch of His body was subject to rule, just as every inch of our natural body is subject to rule.
GWH Do you mean by rule, moral sway?
FER Yes, in spiritual things.
WM He that abideth in Him sinneth not.
FER That is the object of rule, so that you do not sin.
GR Like the word in the fifth of Acts, “to them that obey him”.
FER “[p. 29] He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him”. Hebrews 5: 9. Even the Lord Jesus put Himself under rule, “made under law”, and He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. He made all rule, but He came Himself under rule in becoming Man. Rule is the first principle of the moral universe.
GR That would come out in connection with what you were saying this morning. He took that place in order to be Head to us.
FER Exactly, “being made perfect”, that is positionally,
“he became the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him”.
W.M. What is atmosphere?
FER The spirit of the christian circle. If a man gets into a coal mine and there is fire damp, the man cannot breathe, but in a healthy atmosphere, above ground, a man can breathe and live. The same is true in the christian circle, it is not an atmosphere of moral death but one that is healthy and invigorating, and if a man has lungs he can breathe and live.
GR The contrast would be, “she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth”, 1 Timothy 5: 6.
FER And the apostle puts it, “For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another”. That is the condition in which we were; that is not healthy nor invigorating, it is a very killing atmosphere.
GWH Do you get the circle of life and death in Colossians 3?
FER You get the circle of life, but I do not know about death. You get the christian circle and the qualities of it.
GWH Do you not get the opposite of it?
FER I do not think so, for the moment. Perhaps you mean in connection with the old man, put off all these.
GR Having found the atmosphere, what is the third thing?
FER You get the light, that is the revelation of God, in all that God is toward us in our pathway down here from beginning to end. You are in the full shining of divine light, that is, the light of divine love in its application to us all along our responsible course.
WM Until the judgment-seat.
FER Yes, love is made perfect with us with regard to the judgment-seat.
WM Were not these conditions there before the gospel began to be preached?
FER Yes.
JSA You mean the ‘circle’ was there.
FER Before the gospel was preached Christ was exalted, the kingdom was there, or the apostles could not have preached it; they preached the kingdom. Peter was to administer the kingdom, and it was there because Christ was exalted in virtue of redemption; and then the christian circle was there also.
JT Did it not depend on the christian circle?
FER Exactly, without that you do not get the atmosphere. A single christian would not bring atmosphere. You must have company. “We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren”. You have passed out of the atmosphere of the world, which is hatred, into another atmosphere, that is, you love the brethren.
JT So the conditions allude not only to what is in heaven but to what is on earth.
FER It refers entirely to earth. We had that four years ago. This has been attacked, but I am only more confirmed in it, that eternal life applies to earth and not to heaven.
JT I do not think we are very much alive to what is here.
WM It makes it in a way difficult to carry such a gospel to the heathen, because you have not the conditions.
FER Very difficult.
JT But the conditions are here.
WM But the house of God is not in order.
FER But you can carry the tidings of the kingdom to them. You could not say much about eternal life to them. The kingdom may be beyond the house in a way; that difficulty is not a practical one to us.
JT When the apostles went out to present the gospel, they had something behind them which was actually existing upon earth as a witness.
FER And the Lord gave them evidence, [p. 31] and the powers of the world to come. They carried that, and there was the circle to which they could appeal.
JSA And those who were converted were added to that company.
FER Exactly.
GR Does the expression apply to the whole company, “The people magnified them”, because that would give great power to the testimony?
FER I think so. They were greatly struck by the conduct of christians one to another.
JT There was a sphere formed where righteousness and peace and joy were found.
FER And there was a circle characterised by the love of Christ. We have a wonderful expression in the prayer in the third of Ephesians, “that ye may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height”, that is, the whole extent of the moral universe, “And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God”. It is not only that you apprehend with all saints the breadth and length and depth and height, but you know what is going to fill it, and that is the love of Christ. But we know that now in the christian circle. It is the atmosphere which christians properly breathe. Of course the difficulty of the present day is that so many christians are buried in the great mass of christian profession. You cannot breathe freely in these great systems. You do not know one another in a simply christian point of view. There is a poor atmosphere and people do not thrive very much.
WM So you really came out to get breath.
JT You could not blame one much for that.
FER Men are ready enough to do it naturally. I came out to do it spiritually.
RSS There is a difference between what is spoken of here as the water springing up, and the fruit of the Spirit spoken of in Galatians.
FER Yes, that is another matter. Fruit is the effect of [p. 32] healthy conditions. In natural things again, a tree is dependent on conditions. It would not thrive apart from them; in a dark, smoky place it would not thrive or bring forth fruit.
JT The point in this chapter would not be the fruit.
FER No, I think it is the first principle, eternal life, then I think you get fruit. Until you get eternal life there is not very much of fruit bearing.
JSA And God sets forth in the third chapter His mind that man should have eternal life. It is shown that the first thing necessary is a new start, new birth, and in the fourth chapter the living water is in view.
FER The thought of new birth is brought in to put the Jew out of court, so that everything may be put on the broad ground of “God so loved the world”.
WM That is very striking, because new birth is not spoken of in connection with the gentiles.
FER The necessity of it is brought in, to put the Jew out of court. Nicodemus ought to have known it. The argument practically is this, that if the Jew needs to be born again, a gentile might be born again, because the Jew has no exclusive claim to being born again. He had claim as to the promises to Abraham, but none to new birth. It is purely of the sovereignty of God’s love.
JT So that the third chapter would be largely on the divine side. We get it in that way, the lifting up of the Son of man. But then the next chapter is our side, how we get into it.
FER The third chapter brings out what is in God’s mind with regard to the world, but it does not tell you how you get it. The fourth chapter gives you the ‘how’. It is well for God to say it is in His mind that whosoever believeth in Christ should have everlasting life, but one may say ‘how am I to get it?’ Many will tell you they get it by believing.
FER You get nothing without believing.
WM Then eternal life is God’s mind for everybody, not only for the believer.
FER It is in God’s mind for all for it says whosoever. It is very important to apprehend that God has not two thoughts in His mind with regard to people; He has one thought with regard of all. God would have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
JT You say we get nothing without believing.
FER Nothing except light. By faith we have the apprehension of what is in God’s mind for man; it does not give it to you. For instance, as to forgiveness of sins, you do not get that by believing. You know it is in God’s mind. Faith apprehends that, but you do not get it by faith in any available way.
J.T. How do you get it?
FER By the Spirit.
GR I thought you got the Spirit consequent on forgiveness.
FER You get the Spirit consequent on there being forgiveness in the mind of God for man.
JT But why would it not be all right when you have the light of God’s mind?
FER Because you want a witness. I do not think you have it in any available sense without a witness.
JT The testimony in the Acts was that forgiveness was preached in His name.
FER That is all right and forgiveness was God’s mind in regard of all, “that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem”. It is a great thing when one comes to apprehend the fact that forgiveness of sins is in the mind of God toward all. Hence it is clearly toward me. But in order to get it effectually and availably I want a witness in myself. The mere apprehension that it is in God’s mind toward all would not give it to me availably.
WM That is what you meant this morning by saying that all blessings were in Christ.
FER But the appropriation of all blessings from beginning to end is by the Spirit. You have the witness of nothing apart from the Spirit.
JT [p. 34] In Ephesians they believed the gospel of their salvation.
FER They believed that God had brought salvation to the gentiles, then they received the gift of the Spirit, and then they got all those blessings which come in in christianity, in an effectual and available way.
JT Would it not be correct to say that they had the light of forgiveness before?
FER Yes, but light was that forgiveness was there.
JT Would not that be pretty much what we have taught, that they were forgiven?
FER But in a certain sense all are forgiven; forgiveness, in the appropriation of it, is that you have the witness of it in some way in yourself. I think you can see it in this way, the outward public effects of sin are not yet set aside. The christian dies like any other man, he is sick, etc. The outward results and effects of sin are not yet put aside. So that in order to know you have forgiveness you want a witness in yourself. In the millennium you will get what was shadowed forth in the two goats on the day of atonement. It is a curious thing that on the day of atonement though they offered a bullock for a sin offering for Aaron and his house there was no scape-bullock, but when you come to Israel, there was not only the goat for the sin-offering but there was the scape-goat, and on the scape-goat the sins were confessed and carried away into a land of forgetfulness. So it will be with regard to Israel hereafter, sin will be demonstratively put away; they will be delivered from their enemies, and death and sickness will be put aside, and God will be here in light in Christ, and it will be evident and public that there is forgiveness of sins. How can you prove to anybody that you are more free from death and the consequences of sin than any other man? The only way we can get at it is by witness. The practical result of the witness is that sins cannot come in between us and God; everything depends upon the witness.
WM In keeping with that, would you say that both [p. 35] Simon and the woman in Luke 7 were forgiven? but the woman got the witness in the word of Christ.
FER I think so, forgiveness was in God’s mind equally for both.
Ques On what ground do you get the witness?
FER By faith, that is, sealed by the Holy Spirit.
Rem A great many have believed and have not the Spirit, and are in doubt and darkness.
FER Quite so, they are not free with God because the real test of having forgiveness is liberty with God.
GWH You were saying you do not get anything by believing, would you say you get salvation by believing?
FER No more than anything else. What you apprehend by faith is that salvation is there. You could not get it without believing, but it is not by believing. You get it just as you get forgiveness, by the Spirit.
WM The believer gets it.
FER Yes, and no one but the believer gets it, because otherwise people are indifferent, but salvation is by the Spirit.
JSA The salvation which is in Christ Jesus.
Rem What men need is the Spirit.
FER Scripture goes so far as this, “if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his”.
AHE Will you kindly explain the reply of the apostle Paul to the jailor at Philippi.
FER He simply tells him that believing on the Lord Jesus Christ he would be saved and his house, and afterwards he expounds to him the word of the Lord; then they were baptised and received the Spirit and were brought in that way into salvation. He was saved by the Spirit, just as we are saved. We are brought into the reality of what subsists in Christ.
WM Would you say salvation really lies in being brought into these conditions?
FER Yes. The Spirit is a well of water springing up into everlasting life. You are saved out of the system which is obnoxious to God, like Israel saved out of Egypt.
AvDeB [p. 36] It is a wonderful thing to be saved!
FER It is a great thing to get into the reality of it.
Rem I suppose believing is a work of God.
FER Faith is the gift of God, but then you must remember when speaking in that way that men are under responsibility to believe; if God addresses Himself to men in the way of testimony there is a responsibility attaching to man to believe what God says, because otherwise we make God a liar. The gospel is presented to the obedience of faith.
WM I suppose people have to be clear about righteousness before salvation.
JSA It is a great point in chapter 4 the receiving of living water.
FER I was saying that the beginning of the third chapter contemplates a world of darkness (and the Jews were as dark as others), where God is not known; and the fourth chapter a world of thirst. It is a remarkable thing how very little things have changed. Take this vast country; it is to a large extent a world of darkness. Men attach importance to certain things, politics, money, etc., but do not concern themselves about what is in the thought of God. They think a great deal more about worldly advantage than about God. If you were to talk to them about God they would not be at all concerned to hear you.
JT What strikes one is the inability on every hand to judge of the relative value of things.
FER Quite so. The fact is, in a rich community money becomes their god; it is the mammon of unrighteousness. Christendom is almost as dark as heathendom.
JT In the third chapter where darkness prevails light is introduced.
FER As the Lord Jesus said, light is come in; the testimony of God is there. God has come out to make known His thoughts toward men.
JT I think that it is often thought that the light refers to what the Lord was here in the flesh.
FER [p. 37] I do not think you get the full light until you get the Son of man lifted up. It is there the light shines, in the death of Christ.
WM It is the way God took to come out.
FER The veil was rent from the top to the bottom. It was rent on the divine side.
RSS The testimony of the gospel is not connected here with salvation, but with that which is even beyond it, life.
FER Still of course it covers it. Eternal life covers salvation.
RSS But salvation is a means to that end. I suppose you could not be here in the enjoyment of eternal life unless you were in the good of salvation.
FER It all goes together.
JT Is it not right to say, you could not be clear from death in your spirit unless you are in the sphere of life?
FER If you have come into the christian circle you have come into the ark, and the ark was salvation to Noah. You are saved there. The great difficulty in the present day is that many people do not very well come into salvation, because they really remain more or less in the world. I admit it is a christianised world, but the world is there. Salvation is connected with baptism, “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us”, they came in through the water into the ark. That is where people properly are now. They are in the house of God, and salvation is there, and there is no salvation out of it.
WM The washing of regeneration is needed to bring us into the new place.
FER That probably refers to baptism.
JT That is not much use as a text for the gospel.
FER With a very great part of christians salvation lies as a term. They do not know much about the reality of Is not the ark a [p. 38] type of Christ?
FER Yes, but the christian circle is Christ here.
GWH Would you say the divine thought in connection with this type is the bringing of water to satisfy the thirst of the world?
FER To satisfy the thirst of man. The Spirit attaches us to Christ and the effect is that you enter into the apprehension and understanding of conditions which exist in Christ. You come under those conditions and thus into eternal life.
GWH I suppose the effect is to bring us into correspondence with Christ.
FER The first thing is to come into conditions, the other follows. When a child is newly born it comes into conditions in which it was not before; that is, it comes into the conditions of rule, atmosphere and light. It is born with a body and lungs and eyes, but until it is born these functions do not come into exercise; then the child finds all the conditions existing. And so it is when we are born spiritually, we come into the apprehension of conditions which exist in Christ. Then it is we come into eternal life. What we ought to be earnest about is to maintain healthy conditions. I have no doubt whatever that plenty of christians in the present day are struggling to maintain a kind of christianity in the world, but there is an atmosphere in the world that stifles all spiritual life.
RSS Salvation really brings you out of that.
FER You have salvation in the fact of being brought out of it. Salvation belongs to the christian circle, really the house of God. God has placed it there.
RSS And it delivers you from this present evil world and your associations in it.
FER You come into entirely different associations where the very air you breathe is the love of Christ, “Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren”. That is the atmosphere of the christian circle.
RSS Would you say that eternal life is really [p. 39] the entering into the new conditions and salvation is coming out from old ones?
FER Exactly. We are saved from the old by being brought into the new, but it is the Spirit that brings you into the new. Baptism and the Spirit bring into the new conditions.
WM So that eternal life is always presented in Scripture as the moral end.
FER It is life in the christian circle and death to the world.
GR You get that word in Ephesians, “Awake, thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light”.
RSS I suppose the reason we are so little in the enjoyment of eternal life is that we are not careful to see that we get clear from those associations.
FER Then there is another thing that enters in, that is the state of the church. I do not believe for a moment that in the existing state of things it is possible to realise things as they did at the beginning.
JT That makes the situation very difficult. The thing may be plain enough to us, but the realising of it is a different matter.
FER I do not believe it would be of the Spirit of God to allow us to completely ignore or be unaffected by the condition of the church.
JSA And yet what we are not directly responsible for we have to accept.
FER You get the same thing in the last days of Israel, there was a godly and pious people who were going on according to God; they spake often one to another, but they were affected by the general condition of Israel. Take Simeon for instance, waiting for the coming of the Lord, saying “lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: for mine eyes have seen thy salvation”. Just think what an anomaly, wanting to depart in peace when he had seen God’s salvation. He ought to have wanted to live. But he knew Israel was going to reject Christ. He said, “this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against”. Therefore Simeon does not pray to live. He virtually says, I have come to an end of all expectation; I have seen the desire of all flesh, let me depart in peace.
RSS It is greatly in contrast to Hezekiah and both were Israelites.
FER Simeon was a man told by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death until be had seen Jehovah’s Christ, and he was content to pass away because he saw what the presentation of Christ to Israel would mean.
JT The eunuch on the same line was also content to accept it.
Do you think it would be well to accept the condition of things at the present time; the tendency is to set up something pretentious.
FER I think brethren have been diligent to set up a nice little pattern of the church.
JT And to call that the assembly of God at Rochester or elsewhere.
FER Something of that kind.
JT What one notices is that that seems to drown individual faith in the Lord and resting in Him.
FER I have said many times if I were challenged as to my connection with any body of christians on earth I would say that I have no connection with any body special and I would mean it.
RSS You do not mean any person?
FER Any person if you like.
WM You mean that you are connected with all christians.
FER I have no more connection with one than another; the only difference is we cannot all walk together, but walking does not establish any special connection.
RSS Does not the question of fellowship come in?
FER Fellowship is universal. In a way I have fellowship with persons in system as [p. 41] with others.
WLP How far would fellowship go with christians in system?
FER I would seek to walk in the light as God is in the light, and if another man does that I would walk with him.
WM You can take a longer walk with some people than with others.
FER If a man has his elbows out you cannot walk very close to him.
RSS We speak of ‘our fellowship’.
FER If you mean christian fellowship I do not mind. If you mean a special fellowship I object very much.
RSS Would you not speak of a person being received into fellowship?
FER We only admit that that man is fit to walk with christians anywhere.
WM When you speak of our fellowship you mean christians anywhere.
FER Exactly. We have to get out of the idea of a special and select community which is a little pattern church.
WM If a person is put away, he is put out of the whole church on earth.
FER We put a person away because that person is not fit to walk with any christians, not because he does not please us. He is engaged in such a course of conduct that he is not fit to walk with any christians. You want to be very sure that he is not fit for the company of any christians before you decline to walk any more with him.
JT We shall have to think about that a good bit.
FER The more you think of it the better. I have thought of it a good bit myself.
AHE The danger of the other thing is that we become pharisaical.
FER And are very well content with it. I think we ought to contend earnestly in the present day against what we may call brethrenism.
JSA One great beauty of the writings of John is that it is the moral side, nothing ecclesiastical that is [p. 42] in view.
FER So, too, when you come to 2 Timothy you do not get a word about anything ecclesiastical — all is moral. You have to be a vessel unto honour. Then again, “Flee also youthful lusts”.
JT It is a very natural thing to break bread with people.
FER It is right to walk together if you are agreed. Then we are right in seeking as far as we possibly can to act in the light of the church, but with the sense that we are not the church. That is the only guidance or direction that we have. We do not assume to be anything, but to act in the light of the church. I could plead with God in regard of it.
JT It is quite natural we should seek to get all the light we can to make the most of the situation.
WM What we have belongs to all.
GWH We avail ourselves of it and the others do not.
FER It is a great thing to get into the region of the Spirit; to retire from all that is of flesh and man and human order. There is no real christianity outside of the Spirit of God.
GWH And all pretension of any kind is contrary to that.
Ques That being the case, can you put a person out of fellowship?
FER What that means is, that I am not going to walk with him, if he is a wicked person. You get a man who is a liar or a perjurer or a thief, I am not going to walk with that man. That is a simple thing to my mind. As to the mere form of putting him away from fellowship, that does not matter to me.
JT You say you cannot. What about others?
FER They must give him up, too, or I cannot walk with them.
JSA In 2 Timothy you get permanent instruction for individuals. If I find any going on with God I am bound to go on with them.
GR You made a remark about the region of the Spirit.
[p. 43] Being in that region seems to be apart from the world and the flesh, because He convicts the world of sin and He resists the flesh.
FER That is what I maintain. If you get there you get out of the world and the flesh and human order. All christendom is set up according to human order. They were tested in early days, and then in order to check the evil, they set up the best order they knew, but it was human order. I have no doubt the introduction of elders and bishops came in as human order to check evil. If you get into the region of the Spirit you get outside all human order. You cannot have any clergy there. In the earlier days elders and deacons were men full of the Holy Spirit. We have to go back to where things began, to get into the region of the Spirit, and then you get outside of all human order and organisation.
WM These men undertook their work in the power of the Spirit.
GWH The office was a spiritual one rather than official.
FER What they did they had to carry out by the Spirit.
JT I want to find out a little more about the man you could not walk with. Cannot the saints act in the light of the church?
FER I think they have to act in the light of the church; that you cannot have fellowship with such a person.
Ques How about a christian in system? Would you speak of him as a brother?
FER Yes, unless he was guilty of some bad course.