THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST (9)
[p. 164] THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST (9)
Numbers 12:1 - 10; Numbers 14:1 - 10; Numbers 16:1 - 24; Numbers 16:41 - 46
JT Those who will come under our attention in this reading, which makes this part of our subject especially important, are those who minister. The persons persecuted represent the ministry, which is a matter of the greatest consequence in the history of the testimony, and is inclusive of all those who in any way serve the Lord in serving the saints. The first feature of persecution to be noted here arises from near natural relatives, then we see it as from fellow servants — Korah also being a Levite — and finally from the people of God generally.
WB-w The word “against” seems to be characteristic in each of the three passages you read.
JT As in chapter 16:3: “against Moses and against Aaron”. The two names are not covered by the one preposition; each person is pointed out as an object of the attack. Aaron is personally distinctive as representing the priestly side. But in chapter 12 he drops from his high office and general characteristic spirit to the level of a persecutor, showing how the most honoured of the Lord’s servants may become a persecutor of another servant of the Lord.
AP What is the root of this difficulty?
JT I think it lies in their remarks in verse 2: “Has Jehovah indeed spoken only to Moses? has he not spoken also to us?” They claim equality with Moses; which God would never allow; He will not allow any distinction that He affords to a servant to be impugned. He maintains that servant in relation to the distinction He has given him, whatever others may think.
ANW What is the significance of a female taking the lead in the movement?
JT [p. 165] I think it is to bring out the characteristic weakness of the female side, which had its inception in Eve. But Miriam was also a minister; she was a prophetess, and evidently fostered the feeling of rivalry against Moses more than Aaron; and it became accentuated in the taking of an Ethiopian wife. Possibly in Miriam’s case there was deeper feeling on account of the marriage, a certain amount of pride; in any case, these are the elements that Satan acts upon in near relatives or in fellow servants — persons who are more closely associated with us.
CAM Satan seems to work where self has place. They use the word “us” here, and that seems to be a weakness.
JT “Has he not spoken also to us?” or “through us”, as much as to say, We are on an equality. That is, they are infringing on God’s sovereign appointment.
AP Do you think there is ofttimes a side issue brought in to cloak the real issue as in Moses’ marriage here?
JT It seems so. It may have had more weight with Miriam than with Aaron, but I think the real issue lies in what they say.
JEH It does not say to whom they uttered these words; but it says immediately, “And Jehovah heard it”.
JT “Jehovah heard it”; that is to be noted, as affording comfort to all in such cases. No doubt they did not conceal their feelings. People in this complaining state do not fail to make their criticisms known pretty generally.
WFK Do you think that jealousy is the root of this trouble?
JT What they say discloses what had been at work. Doubtless, it extended back considerably.
ANW When you speak of the family, do you mean the natural or the spiritual [p. 166] family?
JT The natural relatives who have part in the ministry are likely to be affected in such circumstances. If a servant is entirely free in himself from natural influences in his service, he is sure to suffer in this way. The Lord Himself is an example. He suffered from His relatives; even His mother at times had part in this.
AFM What would be the cure for such a condition of things as we find here?
JT Well, the cure for all these things, of course, is drastic self-judgment. “Has he not spoken also to us?” they inquire, showing what was current in their minds. They were thinking possibly that they were not sufficiently considered by Moses; because persons in this relation are apt to be expectant of some special recognition, and disappointment arises unless it is there. In the Lord’s own case His perfect spirituality implied that while He recognised nature, His life properly was outside of it. That would be for the flesh an occasion of resentment from the outset in His near relatives. The flesh, as in Ishmael, persecutes what is born after the Spirit.
JS You have breakdown in the priesthood here, have you not?
JT Well, it is very sorrowful that persecution should arise in persons in such exalted offices, the one a high priest, and the other a prophetess — Miriam being the only prophetess mentioned up to this time.
AFM Do you think that Aaron recovered from this, as evidenced in the part he took with Moses later?
JT Obviously; and the judgment of the Lord was directed against Miriam. The root of the evil was apparently in her.
GMcP Do you think that Miriam’s opposition suggests that the subjective state of the people was bad?
JT I think that is right. They had to stop [p. 167] journeying until she was restored. She is singled out as a subject of the judgment of God.
WB-w In the New Testament, Barnabas and Paul, two ministers, found difficulty in serving the Lord together. Would that be similar to what we are now considering?
JT I think so. They were persons of an exalted position in the service. It was a very sorrowful thing, but it was allowed of God. So with Peter too; he, you might say, persecuted Paul as led away by those who came from James. For a time there would be a feature of persecution at Antioch.
AFM Would this leprosy, as snow, be significant? We find in Gehazi, he was a leper similarly.
JT I think it is the absence of spiritual life, white hairs in the instruction as to leprosy imply the absence of life.
CAM It was a thing calculated to arouse the attention of a priest. Aaron seems to be affected by it at once.
ANW What is there about Aaron that succumbs to this type of failure? He succumbed to the influence of the people at the foot of the mountain, and here he succumbed evidently to the influence of Miriam.
JT It is a feature of man, in spite of the fact that he is a priest. His priestly office should have prevented it. This incident shows that the most spiritual may give way. Vigilance is needed in the most honoured of the Lord’s servants, or he may come under sinister influence.
JHE Do you think Paul was fortified against it? He says, “For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell”, (Romans 7:18).
JT Exactly, as maintaining that, he was preserved. The flesh was capable of such failure in Aaron, and is capable of the same thing in the most honoured and spiritual of the Lord’s [p. 168] servants.
AP Do you think we are all aware of the important place that a minister chosen by Christ has in His service?
JT Perhaps not. This chapter is to remind us that in the sovereignty of God He makes distinctions amongst His servants; and, here, attention is called first of all to the kind of man Moses was. Aaron was valuable, and was commended earlier by God Himself; he was a man who had brotherly affections, a characteristic Levite. But he was not equal to Moses, meek above all the men that were upon the face of the earth. God had given Moses a distinction that no one else had, and He would not let that be ignored. Moses made no effort to defend himself here. In this he is an example for us when personally attacked. No doubt he was exceedingly distressed that the attack should come from his sister and brother. They were two of the three leaders that are spoken of later as those by whom God brought the children of Israel out of Egypt.
JS Why do you think meekness is stressed here?
JT I think to bring out into greater prominence what was at work. The Lord said, “They hated me without a cause”, (John 15:25). There was no cause for this attack. I believe that is why the Spirit mentions it. Besides his meekness, Moses had a distinction in the service that no other had, as Jehovah says, “If there be a prophet among you, I Jehovah will make myself known to him in a vision, I will speak to him in a dream. Not so my servant Moses he is faithful in all my house. Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly, and not in riddles; and the form of Jehovah doth he behold”. Jehovah was not going to let that slip. He would maintain the position, as He had ordered it.
CAM God seems to assume that they would understand that Moses had that place with Him.
JT No doubt they did. Look at the number [p. 169] of times the Spirit of God said, “Jehovah spoke to Moses”; and Moses had twice been on the mount for forty days. Aaron was on the mount, but never in the sense in which Moses was there.
FHL The servant is stressed here — the Lord says, “against my servant, against Moses”.
JT Yes. His personal characteristic is stated first; he was not a man that lived in his service. He was personally a great man, that is, he was like Christ. The apostle says, “I ... entreat you by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ”, (2 Corinthians 10:1). It says, “But the man Moses was very meek”.
WGT This incident brings out that a servant does not need to defend himself against personal attacks.
JT That is the lesson to be learnt. It is for one attacked in this way to be “as a man that heareth not, and in whose mouth are no reproofs”, (Psalm 38:14). The Lord defends such a case.
EB What was involved in Moses taking this woman to wife?
JT The Ethiopian woman is, I think, a type of the assembly in the wilderness, not in the counsels of God. The assembly in this setting is not attractive. Normally the saints will admit this fact. But the Lord takes us on, whatever others may think of us, and that, I think, is the point. It is the assembly in the wilderness, “This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness”, (Acts 7:38). As in the wilderness, she is very unlovely from the outward point of view, but there is something there that the Lord sees, that possibly others do not see. Miriam may not have seen anything pleasing in this woman, but evidently Moses did. We have only the fact here that he had taken her. There is nothing said as to her appearance; the nationality only is mentioned.
AFM Moses had taken her, and that was [p. 170] sufficient.
JT The type is very clear, that if the Lord had taken us, He sees something that others do not see. Outwardly there is, alas! much that exposes the saints to criticism, but then the Lord sees the divine formation.
JS As those that are called out from among the nations. The Lord views the assembly in this connection.
JT Yes. Neither Zipporah nor this woman is presented as attractive. The assembly in the wilderness is contemplated. Moses had “taken” her, then why should Miriam or Aaron challenge what the wisest man in Israel had done? If you apply it to Christ, how evil this speaking of Miriam’s and Aaron’s was!
ARS In reality, they were sinning against Jehovah in finding fault with Moses. Miriam’s position is sorrowful here — one who shone so well earlier, when she led the praises of the Lord’s people after they crossed the Red Sea! It is a solemn lesson.
RWS Did not the words of Miriam and Aaron expose them when they said, of Jehovah, “has he not spoken also to us?” referring to past history? Whereas of Moses, Jehovah says, “Mouth to mouth do I speak to him”.
JT Quite so. What he says about him is very beautiful and really overwhelming, as to the point at issue. He says, “Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I Jehovah will make myself known to him in a vision, I will speak to him in a dream. Not so my servant Moses: he is faithful in all my house. Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly, and not in riddles; and the form of Jehovah doth he behold”. It is what is always characteristic of Jehovah’s communications to His great servant.
AFM Moses’ meekness was his greatness; hence [p. 171] we all should be characterised by this quality, so that when attacks come, we may leave it to God to defend us.
ABP Would you say that the worldly adornment of the professing church today is an indication of how little understood this action of Moses was? The Lord is prepared to be associated with that which is outwardly of no repute in the world. The worldly adornment only takes away from the moral greatness of it.
JT Yes. I think this incident is to bring out that He sees what is there spiritually, which the natural eye does not see.
WGT The great intimacy that existed between Jehovah and Moses is brought out here, that would otherwise not have been disclosed.
JT He is a very full type of Christ here, and not like an ordinary prophet. Jehovah would speak to Moses mouth to mouth and the form of Jehovah he beheld. This is a remarkable word. We may thus understand what a man of God he was.
JS What do you understand by the form of Jehovah?
JT It is not the corresponding word to that in Philippians 2:6, where Christ is said to have subsisted in the form of God. The form of God, in such a case, is invisible, for He is the invisible God. The form of God in the New Testament signifies what is substantial, involving His manner of existence. “Similitude” or “form” here is more external. It is what Israel did not see, as expressly stated in Deuteronomy 4. Over against this, Jehovah says here of Moses, “The form of Jehovah doth he behold”. “Doth” is characteristic and not merely historical, and so it may allude to what Moses saw in his immediate relations with God; probably in the holiest, into which he always had access. I suppose he is a type of Christ in this, for no one could [p. 172] see God in His essential being but Jesus, who was Himself God. “No one has seen God at any time”, (1 John 4:12). The Lord says to the Jews that they had not seen the Father’s “shape”; but the Lord even as Man had seen it. So Moses here in this respect is a type of Christ.
AP And does not the verse substantiate that — “Why then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?”
JT Yes; they ought to have known how faithful and how honoured of God he was.
AP Is that not important today that we should know?
JT I think it is a principle in the testimony, that there are always those whom God puts forward, like Peter — “first ... Peter”. But as we see here, it is not only a matter of ability, but the kind of man — “the man Moses”. As appointed of God, Moses could go into the holiest at any time. The going in there would tend to make him meek.
ANW That is what I thought in connection with Moses’ superiority in these various incidents. His nearness to God and liberty of access within gave him rightness of judgment.
ABP It is also suggested that his greatness is indicated by his intimacy with Jehovah rather than his works of power?
ANW “Mouth to mouth” would suggest mutuality.
JT Yes; that is very beautiful.
WB-w Evidently one’s personality is greater than one’s service.
JT “The man Christ Jesus” — what He is, underlies everything; and so it is with any of us. It is a question of what we are and not of what gift we may have; our place in the testimony always works out according to what we are. The apostle says,
“But by God’s grace I am what I am”, (1 Corinthians 15:10). That refers to his personality.
CN How does Moses’ remark, “Jehovah thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him shall ye hearken”, (Deuteronomy 18:15), fit in with what you are saying?
JT It shows what a full type of Christ he was — “like unto me”.
AFM These great typical thoughts in this chapter were, no doubt, the result of growth with Moses. He starts in a small way, but grows up to this remarkable type of Christ.
JS So this is a great evidence of moral development here in a servant.
JT It is an evidence of the wisdom of God that there was such a man; one faithful in all God’s house. He stands higher than all other men in the Old Testament.
RDG Would you say that Moses justifies God’s appointment in all that God says about him, that under personal attack he immediately turns to be an intercessor?
JT Quite so; he is saving the position here, and that further brings out his greatness. We are to pray for those who persecute us.
JS Moses’ intercession here is the more remarkable because of the fact that Jehovah’s anger is kindled against the offenders and He turns away from them.
JT God leaves the whole matter in suspense. He withdraws from them, so that everything now would depend on Moses. He loved the people, he loved Miriam, and Aaron, and so intercedes for Miriam.
APT At the end of verse 9 it says, “Jehovah ... went away; and the cloud departed”. God, as it were, has to leave; whereas, in verse 14, through [p. 174] intercession, Moses brings Him back. Is that a feature of the man of God?
JT Exactly; everything hinges on Moses. So right through here — we shall see in chapter 16 that the same qualities of the man come out.
ANW The Man Christ Jesus as Mediator is typically before us here.
AP What is the difference between the demeanour of Moses in chapter 12 and in chapter 16?
JT We may see now in chapter 16 another phase of suffering in the servant, in an open effort to set him aside. There is no thought in Miriam and Aaron to set Moses aside, but rather that they should have equality. But now there is an open attack on Moses and Aaron, as if they were governed by wretched human ambition, as if Moses were an aspirant to kingship, as a man that would lord it over God’s heritage; and not only that, Dathan and Abiram say: “wilt thou put out the eyes of these men?” What an imputation to the meekest man, that he should resort to such cruelty! It is a bold effort of the devil to discredit by false accusation the man through whom God was caring for His people. That is the feature of evil that servants have to contend with. The truth is that in attacking Moses and Aaron, they would virtually overthrow the whole system that God had set up for the display of Himself.
CAM In such circumstances, the question is, Who is great enough to intercede? If those that criticise what God is supporting today were to think seriously of this matter of intercession, they might dispense with their criticism.
JT Jehovah proposed twice in this chapter to destroy the people. First in verses 20 and 22, “Jehovah spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, Separate yourselves from the midst of this assembly, and I will consume them in a moment. And they fell on their faces, and said, O God, the God of the [p. 175] spirits of all flesh! Shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with the whole assembly?” And then in verses 44, 45, “Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, Get you up from the midst of this assembly, and I will consume them in a moment. And they fell on their faces”. The intercessory spirit is in both Moses and Aaron, here in the presence of the most terrible uprising. Typically, it is an uprising of the hierarchical system of Christendom, against Christ as Apostle and High Priest. It was a most exercising thing for Moses to go through this attack; for not only was it against him personally, but he well knew that it meant the overthrow of the whole system he had inaugurated, which would be more serious to him than anything.
AP Is not the essence of apostasy in all this?
JT Quite; it is an uprising against the whole divine system, but then Moses and Aaron have to go through it. The enemy was attacking the whole position with a view to destroying it. That is a most dreadful experience to any true servant.
AFM This uprising, answering to the clerical system, has already been experienced and resisted by the assembly; so that there has been recovery to what is of God, as represented in Moses and Aaron.
JT That is what is so triumphant here. It says in verse 42, “it came to pass, when the assembly was gathered together against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked towards the tent of meeting, and behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of Jehovah appeared. And Moses and Aaron went before the tent of meeting”. That is, the whole position is secured; the tent is covered by the cloud, and the glory of Jehovah appears; then place is made for Moses and Aaron. That is the position today. However obscure outwardly, the testimony is protected, and Moses and Aaron are ministering; that is, Christ viewed as seen in them. It was a [p. 176] great triumph, but then how painful the process of reaching it!
NP Why was the wrath of Jehovah against the whole assembly, whereas a limited number only attacked?
JT We read in verse 19 that “Korah gathered the whole assembly against them”; then again in verse 42: “And it came to pass, when the assembly was gathered together against Moses and against Aaron”. The whole assembly was in revolt, and so today, the whole of Christendom is in revolt against Christ through the clerical system, the Levites; that is, persons who because they are preachers and teachers assumed to be priests.
JS This attack is from that source.
JT Yes; it was Korah allying himself with the sons of Reuben and others. It was a party attack. It says of Korah that he made bold, as originating it.
JS Over against this, the glory of Jehovah appeared.
JT That is the thing to see. We can always count on that if we are in the attitude of Moses and Aaron. They fell on their faces, and thus brought God in.
WB-w “Separate yourselves” — is not that a strong feature in all this attack?
JT That is the point. Instead of attempting to execute discipline, we have to leave the opposing position today. The testimony is secured by the cloud, as was said, and Moses and Aaron are ministering before it.
CAM It is a marvellous thing; these two men are again serving!
JT That is the point of triumph. The cloud covered the tent of meeting, “And Moses and Aaron went before the tent of meeting”. They are at liberty to go back to their assigned [p. 177] positions to minister there. That is our position today; we are at liberty to carry on the service of God, in remnant character.
AFM Verses 47 and 48 speak of Aaron’s valuable service. He stood between the dead and the living. The living would be the recovered ones, would they not?
JT Yes; Aaron shines here, acting quickly according to Moses’ urgent order. “They fell on their faces. And Moses said to Aaron, Take the censer, and put fire thereon from off the altar, and lay on incense, and carry it quickly to the assembly, and make atonement for them; for there is wrath gone out from Jehovah: the plague is begun. And Aaron took as Moses had said, and ran into the midst of the congregation”, (verses 45 - 47). I think it is very beautiful to see that Christ, typically, is seen at this point. Moses urges haste, and Aaron carries out the injunction in haste. There is no delay. There is perfect accord of action between the two men.
JS The spirit of intercession is seen, so that, typically, Christendom is not consumed.
JT Quite; how great a thing it is to stand between the living and the dead! The living are preserved.
WB-w What does the “plague” refer to, in which 14,700 had died?
JT I think it would be moral death now, such as we get in Thyatira: “her children will I kill with death”, (Revelation 2:23).
JS Is that not in evidence today?
JT Yes; and the true Priest stands between the living and the dead.
WFK What feature of the sufferings of Christ would this suffering of Moses represent?
JT The attack of Korah and his company is typically against Christ viewed as Apostle and High [p. 178] Priest. It affects all those truly in the ministry, and, in principle, all the saints are affected.
AP It is described in verse 10, “he has brought thee near, and all thy brethren the sons of Levi with thee; and seek ye now the priesthood also? For which cause thou and all thy band are banded together against Jehovah”.
JT Quite so. Those truly recovered now to the divine position become the subjects of this persecution.
FHL The opposers accuse Moses of going to “put out the eyes of these men”; whereas they did that by their darkening influence.
JT Moses was not going to put anyone’s eyes out. He would rather open people’s eyes, like Paul did, which is a great feature of true ministry.
WB-w Why does it say the glory of Jehovah appeared to all the assembly?
JT All the assembly is a priestly expression. The glory appearing thus points to the shining out in these latter days of God in Christ through ministry in which all Christendom is contemplated.
WB-w The glory is shining for all.
AFM Do you think we have Moses distinguished in chapter 12, and Aaron distinguished in chapter 16?
JT Aaron is greatly distinguished in chapter 16, as true in this terrible crisis, and that he stood between the dead and the living. God further honours him in taking his staff and causing it to bud and bring forth fruit. He is a living priest; that is Christ, typically.
JS Do we not see the recovery of the priesthood today?
JT Yes; there are those who are alive spiritually, thank God. The principle today is staying the plague. Presently the living will be removed, and the whole system will be left as dead.
ANW [p. 179] Why is incense only connected with this atonement?
JT It is a question of what Christ is personally. That is what was obscured. There was a terrible exposure of the flesh in Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, and here of the assembly. The incense emphasised is the fragrance of Christ as a Man before God. It is atonement, as by fire off the altar, but it is incense; i.e., Christ is as Man tested in relation to the testimony.
WB-w Is the plague the activity of man’s will in opposition to God as in Christendom?
JT I think so. It is death in a moral sense. The book of Revelation enlarges upon it; it is current now, and is met by a priestly state of things among the saints.
CAM It is remarkable how quickly death in this way comes in. As soon as people go against the testimony, every spark of spiritual life goes.
ANW How Moses is honoured! It says, “Aaron took as Moses had said”. The Spirit emphasises that. There would be the recognition of the apostolic authority in Aaron’s movements.
WGT The Lord is called, the “Apostle and High Priest of our confession”, (Hebrews 3:1). Would that be in keeping with this chapter?
JT It is Christ seen in that light, only it is worked out down here now by the Spirit. It appears in all that is authoritative according to God amongst the saints.
Now the final thought at this time is in Caleb and Joshua, (chapter 14). Moses and Aaron come in here, too, but Caleb and Joshua are specially prominent in the persecution. They represent the heavenly side of our position typically. It is a question now of whether we are heavenly men. If we are, we shall suffer peculiarly.
JS The heavenly side comes in after the twelve spies [p. 180] had gone into the land.
JT Yes; they had gone into the land, but Caleb and Joshua came out in testimony as to it, and their speech is beautiful.
APT Do they represent the younger element in the service that God is going to bring through?
JT Yes; they go into the land finally, and represent the work of God that goes right through from Egypt into Canaan; and on the way they go in and see the heavenly land for themselves, and understand what is there.
AP Whom do those who are ready to stone them, represent?
JT It says, the whole assembly said they should be stoned. How terrible it is that an attack on heavenly testimony should so spread. You have “the whole assembly” twice in chapter 16. Here we have them ready to stone the heavenly men.
AFM These heavenly men were united in act and word, were they not? “They spoke to the whole assembly of the children of Israel, saying, The land, which we passed through to search it out, is a very, very good land. If Jehovah delight in us, he will bring us into this land, and give it to us, a land that flows with milk and honey; only rebel not against Jehovah; and fear not the people of the land; for they shall be our food. Their defence is departed from them, and Jehovah is with us: fear them not”. In their testimony they included every Israelite.
JT It is beautiful to listen to persons who can talk about heaven as having been there.
ABP Paul could do that.
JT Yes; he represents this literally. He had been caught up to the third heaven.
AP When Paul says, “all who are in Asia, of whom is Phygellus and Hermogenes, have turned away from me” (2 Timothy 1:15), does he refer to people like these who wanted to return to [p. 181] Egypt?
JT Yes. They evidently despised, or were not prepared for, the heavenly side of the truth.
CAM Is there what corresponds with this in the history of the assembly, that brings heaven into view in some way?
JT Ephesians represents the heavenly side of the truth. We are blessed in the heavenlies in Christ, and are said to have been raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. That is a beautiful touch. I think it corresponds somewhat with Moses’ view from Pisgah. He sees the land as the territory of the tribes; as much as to say, That is where Judah is, in the purpose of God. That is where Ephraim is in the purpose of God; and so where all the saints are, each having his own place in the purpose of God. We are there already in our affections and estimate of things. In our view we should see heaven full of saints. Already we are regarded as raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies (not with Christ, but in Christ). It is the status of the saints up there. We shall be with Him, of course, as conformed to His image, He the Firstborn among many brethren.
CAM It is very interesting about Ephesians, the thought of that glorious world is brought into this present time, and lights it up.
JT The Holy Spirit having come down, gives us light as to the heavenly side of things; that is, those you love — all the saints — are there. You would not be there without one of them. In the purpose of God, they are all there. Ephesians is thus anticipative of the whole result of the work of God in the assembly. The Lord’s word to Ephesus, “thou hast left thy first love”, would include love for the saints.
JTJr Those Israelites who wanted to return to Egypt had no regard for the heavenly company.
JT Just so; they have no regard for the land.
[p. 182] What would they get in Egypt? What kind of people would they have there? Young people cast their eyes at the world longingly. Whereas when you look into the land, you find that not only are God and Christ and the Spirit and the angels there, but the saints too, those we have learnt to love down here.
CAM You were alluding to John’s letter to Ephesus. The fact that there is an overcomer would show that Paul’s letter to Ephesus is known at the present time, would you say?
JT That is really the point of recovery. The saints were brought back to the heavenly side. “Such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones” (1 Corinthians 15:48), not such shall they be; it is present and abiding.
CAM The truth of Ephesians has not faded among the saints, it is being emphasised at the present moment.
JT I think so.
AP Do you think the heavenly ministry in book form, may not be read; and possibly if read, not enjoyed; would this indicate that we are bordering on the state of Israel as seen in Numbers 14?
JT Yes. We have to follow what the Spirit gives us. It is very humbling when you make inquiry as to what is read, to find how little many of the saints do read ministry.
WGT Would “If Jehovah delight in us, he will bring us into this land, and give it us, a land that flows with milk and honey”, show that Joshua and Caleb understood the Ephesian position?
JT Exactly; typically they grasped it; not that they could speak of Ephesians as we do, but God delights in His people and the very best is for them; and He puts them in possession of it.
AR Why is it that Joshua and Caleb were the only ones that went into [p. 183] the land?
JT I think, as was said, they represent the work of God, in virtue of which we reach Canaan. All that came out of Egypt did not fall in the wilderness. They represent the fact that the work of God is in agreement with the purpose of God. The purpose of God is effectuated, however many may fall in the wilderness, and that is the only way we can understand chapter 15 of this book. The chapters before and after are full of lawlessness, but in chapter 15 it is, “when ye come into the land”. There is no doubt about it.
JS Would you say the testimony of Joshua and Caleb corresponds with the testimony of John’s gospel?
JT I think so; that gospel speaks of heavenly things brought to us.
JS There is a character of the work of God in the man of John 9 that subsists and goes through; and in these two, as you said, we see similar evidence of the work of God.
JT It is very beautiful that they could speak about the Lord delighting in Israel. He has a people He delights in and He will bring them in, for His purpose is going through.
AFM Jehovah said, Your little ones, them will I bring in; an entirely new generation goes in. Is that not what we have to come to experimentally, the change from Adam to Christ? So that we, in principle, reach the brazen serpent and the springing well and journey on as set free in the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
JT Yes. There are two numberings, the first is of those who came out of Egypt at Horeb; and the second is nearly forty years later, which is the numbering for the inheritance. But then there are these two men; they were not born in the wilderness, nor were they under twenty years old when they came out of Egypt; for although Joshua is called a “young man”, yet he was able to lead an army. These two represent the mature side of the work of God going right through from Egypt to Canaan.
RWS What is the point of milk and honey as food, and the Canaanites being food?
JT I suppose the latter would be food in the sense of spiritual exhilaration of victory over the enemy. Canaan is a type of heaven to be realised at the present time, and hence the warfare in heavenly places. You will overcome if you are a spiritual man, as you do so it will be one continual triumph. That is food in dealing with the enemy. The apostle says, “thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ”, (2 Corinthians 2:14). It is continuous triumph. There is also the milk and the honey. There is no death connected with the producing of milk and honey. It is the food of the Messiah. There must be some allusion to Christ living on food that did not require death. Personally He was immune from death. I think that principle would apply to saints in heavenly places, as having no sinful past history.
AP Caleb says he was forty years old when Moses sent him to search out the land, and he says, “I brought him word again as it was in my heart”, (Joshua 14:7).
JT That is a fine speech, and it confirms that he was a full-grown man, as already remarked, when he came out of Egypt, as was Joshua.
FHL How do we get this form of suffering as heavenly men?
JT I think it is that you are always conscious that the world does not like you. You are of another order and nationality. “Our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens”, (Philippians 3:20).
ANW They do not mind about your going to heaven by and by.
JT But they do not like you here and now. This dislike by the world is brought about by persons [p. 185] who recognise no nationality here. The retention of nationality here is inimical to this. Heaven is our land; we are like Abraham and others, of whom it was said: “Now they seek a better, that is, a heavenly; wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for he has prepared for them a city”, (Hebrews 11:16). That is the principle of it.