GOD'S GOVERNMENT, DIRECT AND INDIRECT
GOD’S GOVERNMENT, DIRECT AND INDIRECT
JT This chapter has a marked prophetic bearing on the last days. What is in mind now is not to dwell on the application of the chapter to God’s earthly people and the nations as such, but to see what is the current bearing of it. “No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation”. Scripture, indeed, always bears on the time in which it may be read, it has always a present voice. The instruction for us here is as to government. God governs directly and indirectly. “The powers that be”, as they are called in Romans 13:1, are God’s indirect government; but there is a direct government of the saints which is vested in Christ viewed as a royal Priest, and carried on mediately by the Spirit in suitable persons, (verse 14).
JHB Is it your thought that the first part of the chapter has to do with indirect government, and the last part with the more direct government?
JT Yes.
JHB Would you open out a little the figures used, the mountains, and the horses of different colours?
JT From the time of Noah the principle of magisterial government has existed. The thought was introduced in Genesis 9, and there was food given suitable to sustain such a responsibility — flesh was allowed to men in addition to herbal food.
The government God intended, in taking up Israel, was to be direct. The providential government of God is under angels, and direct government in and through Israel; both of which are mentioned in the heavenly city in relation to the gates. There is nothing in the gates of the heavenly city to correspond [p. 207] with these horses and chariots, for they are provisional; that is, from the time of Israel’s failure and consequent captivity to its reinstatement through the sovereign mercy of God. Until direct government is re-established God resorts to what these horses and chariots represent.
COB Are you referring to Elisha’s remark as to the chariots of Israel?
JT “The chariot of Israel” is a greater thought than these. “The chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof”, “the horsemen” refer to the power of direct government in Israel. These in Zechariah are indirect; the riders are not mentioned.
JAP Would the chariots in this chapter correspond with Daniel’s four kingdoms?
JT Quite so. The chariots and horses would represent a systematic government. There would be energy as in the horses, and the chariots would allude to what is subservient in the way of principles and means. They are regarded as standing before God. “These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth”. They are not presented as governed intelligently by men in their movements, but as if needing external pressure to order them.
HB What is the thought in the mountains of brass?
JT The judgment of God is involved. The principle is the same as it is in Christ. It is a question of righteous judgment. Evil is to be dealt with.
RSC Do we get the contrary element in Job, where Satan goes to and fro?
JT That is right. These horses and chariots are to restrain or check that movement. After the millennium the opposition comes up under Satan “on the breadth of the earth” (Revelation 20:9), meaning that there is no restraint. That is not existing now; there is no such latitude given to evil. The breadth [p. 208] of the earth implies undisputed right of way. These chariots signify that that is checked: they are God’s ministers; (Romans 13:6).
WRP What do you mean in saying that this is only provisional? Do we see it exercised in the millennium when the heavenly city comes down?
JT It is not a primary thought in government. It is provisional, pending that time when God will take up the reins in Christ. He will judge the world in righteousness. These chariots do not represent what God has in His mind for government; He intended it to be direct as seen in Noah.
JHB Is it your thought that indirect government has become necessary because of the failure of those to whom direct government was committed?
JT Yes. God committed Himself openly to David and Solomon, for instance, in relation to rule, but it is not open committal here. It is mysterious; they are spirits that stand before Him. They represent provisional government, pending the day when God will take up direct government in the world in Christ. In the meantime, the testimony of this is in the assembly. The second part of Zechariah 6 shows direct government, and every Christian should know that he is directly under the government of God, not only under these powers, but directly under Christ, “legitimately subject to Christ”.
WRP Is that where judgment beginning at the house of God would come in?
JT That is where the direct government of God is.
Ques Will the direct government of God end in the millennium or will it go into eternity?
JT It is stated that when Christ has subdued all things, He delivers up the kingdom “to him who is God and Father”, (1 Corinthians 15:24). There will always be government, but finally in His hands who is said to be God and Father. The thought of “Father”
[p. 209] means that love will prevail — but government will be there. The Son Himself it is said “shall be placed in subjection to him ... that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28).
WRP Would you make any difference between rule and government?
JT Not much. The Lord is said to rule, and the promise to the overcomer in Thyatira is, “he shall rule them [the nations] with a rod of iron”, (Revelation 2:27). Government is a great general principle that belongs to God. Although it awaited Noah for magisterial government to be formally committed to man, the principle of government was present at the very outset in the relation of Adam to the lower creation. He was to have dominion over them.
CAC There is a certain divine check upon evil in view of the testimony going through to the end, in spite of its weakness.
JT I was thinking that. For instance, this great empire in which we are is evidently held together to maintain a highway for the testimony, that is, for those who would continue in it. That is what the first section of the chapter represents.
CAC Would it answer to the Lord’s word to Philadelphia, “I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut”? (Revelation 3:8).
JT That is good. These great powers are used of God to maintain the public highways, but then there are the spiritual highways, too, belonging to the Priest on His throne.
CAC That would be the purely spiritual side of the matter.
JT Yes. That comes into our care meetings. I thought we might see through our inquiry, how the direct government of God is carried on, and whether any of us are capable of wearing crowns in our executive service.
This fourth great power seeks to walk to and fro.
[p. 210] No doubt there were other influences to check it, but in the main it did succeed in going to and fro and making its great roads. Even the great Roman roads which we see in this country and the continent of Europe are a standing witness to this sort of thing. They check Satan’s direct action against God’s people, not that they are intelligent as to that, but that is the divine intent. Satan walks up and down evidently with a view to damage the people of God; (Job 1:7).
CAC But for that we should not have assembled thus today.
JT That is what I thought. This peculiar power referred to in verse 7 will be more or less permanent until the coming of the Lord, either in the old imperial form of rule, or under the ten kings, throughout the assembly’s history on earth. It represents what God uses to check the direct action of Satan. He goes about, Peter says, as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Anything that checks that is of God, and it keeps the way open. For instance, in Romans, where you may get the leading allusions to this side of the truth we get Phoebe, a lone sister setting out to travel from Cenchrea in Greece to Rome. How could she get to Rome unless the highways had been kept open? How could Paul have carried on the service of the gospel, fully preaching the gospel of Christ “from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum”, (Romans 15:19) — an immense distance — without these highways? So today the principle remains; even in pagan countries the principle is there.
JNL What is the reference to those that go forth to the north quietening the Lord’s spirit in the north country?
JT It refers to the overthrow of Babylon by the Medes and Persians.
WRP In 2 Thessalonians 2:6, there is “that which restrains”, and “He who restrains”, (verse 7 N.T.).
JT “That which” is probably the very thing we are thinking of. “He who” would be more personal, referring, it may be, to the presence of the Spirit here.
CAC The one is the external, and the other is spiritual power.
RSC Does this correspond with what the servant of Elisha saw? His eyes were opened to see the mountain full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
JT “The chariots of God are twenty thousand, thousands upon thousands; the Lord is among them”, (Psalm 68:17). That is the spiritual side, which we think of in conflict for the truth. But we reckon on the great external powers in a subordinate way; no doubt Paul prayed for them, although he suffered from them. The Lord suffered from Pilate. But what the young man saw was the mountain full of horses and chariots of fire: that is what we need our eyes open to, as seeking to maintain the testimony here.
JHB You would scarcely call these chariots in Zechariah 6 the chariots of God; they are powers which are being used.
JT No, God would not call these His chariots. They are, however, subservient to Him and used in His providential government.
JHB Is it your thought that a recognition of this would be a comfort to us in days of external pressure and difficulty?
JT This passage ought to be a comfort to us that there are spirits standing before God, or as the margin says, they “present themselves”, as if they are there and held accountable by God; so that the highways are held open. The great oceanic and continental highways are held open through God’s [p. 212] ordering, so that we can move about and hold meetings and serve the Lord — a great matter. But then, in addition to this power, we have “the chariots of God”, which are invisible, but known to those who have their eyes opened by God; (2 Kings 6:17).
JRUB Would the earlier part correspond with 1 Timothy 2:2, praying for kings and all that are in authority?
JT That is what is in mind — “that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty”. The bearing of the testimony in this section is very distinctly on ourselves.
“Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah; ... then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest; and speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord: even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both. And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the Lord”.
The Lord may help us to see from these verses, that certain who returned from Babylon, from the captivity, had silver and gold of which crowns were to be made. These persons had returned from the captivity, it says; and the word is, “come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah”. It is when they had come from [p. 213] Babylon. They have means, too, silver and gold, and they have come to a particular house: what they had was to be made into crowns. I think the Lord would help us to see something of this, and search us too, as to whether we are really returned, and as having returned what house we have come into. Then, as the crowns are made for the high priest who sits on the priestly throne, there are also these crowns for Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen. Three had come back from Babylon, but there is a fourth person.
JHB What do you mean by having returned?
JT That I am thoroughly out of the system of captivity. It is alluded to elsewhere as “the pit wherein is no water”, (Zechariah 9:11). That is a place where people are not regarded as swallowed up by judgment; there is hope for them; they are called, “prisoners of hope”. The question here is as to whether we are really returned and into what house we have come.
HB What would be the thought of Josiah’s house?
JT It is evidently a spiritual place, a suitable house like Lydia’s. There are many who are professedly delivered from Babylon, but what are their associations?
JHL What would be the distinctive features of those who have left Babylon?
JT Those who have left definitely and are in such a house as is suggested here, are available for the Spirit. The great moral point of the chapter is that all this shall come to pass “if ye will diligently hearken to the voice of Jehovah your God”, and in this way “ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts hath sent me unto you”. That is the great moral point in the chapter, that the divine will pervades; there is somebody moving under the divine will. The point is that one is “sent”. That [p. 214] is seen in the gospel of John. We are not to do what we like; there is so much disregard of divine rule and the will of God. The great principle running right through the gospel of John is that there is one who is sent. A man who gets his eyes opened, is one who goes to Siloam, meaning Sent. What is effected is not of our own planning or doing at all; all is of the sovereign will and power of God. Our position is a question of the will of God, one has been sent by Him, who does all God’s will; that is the point to make clear; all will come about on the principle of men hearkening to the word of God.
Ques Is it the continuation of Exodus 3:15?
JT Moses was sent; “I AM hath sent me unto you”. That was his commission, and the more one adheres to that the more one is like God. Moses was to be for God to Aaron; (Exodus 4:16).
HB David said, “was it not laid upon me?”
JT Exactly. His father had sent him.
JAP Do you mean that in the recovery of the truth, the temple has been built in that way?
JT Yes. The builder is Christ. That is the great general principle. “He shall grow up from his own place, and he shall build the temple of Jehovah: even he shall build the temple of Jehovah”. Note the repetition. He “shall sit and rule upon his throne”. Kings of today sit, but they do not rule, upon their thrones — not that I am saying a word against them. But here it is direct rule that is contemplated. He sits and rules. The lesson is, that the persons returned from the captivity go to a certain place, a house; they are available there and they have wealth, they are known to be there available to God; and their wealth is available for a purpose, for making crowns for the high priest. These crowns being for the high priest are the recognition that everything that has been done, is done by Christ. Whether He uses any of us, he has done it. He is [p. 215] doing a work, and He will do it. Then four men come in after that and crowns are for them. I was thinking of those words and whether one in any little way corresponds with the Lord in this sense.
CAC It is most wonderful to think that there should be a spiritual government in the sphere of holy things, which corresponds with the government of God and expresses His government.
JT The only assembly that is definitely said to have a crown is Philadelphia. In that case there is a danger of losing it. “Hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown”, (Revelation 3:11). The point is, let no one take it. The crowns will go on, somebody will wear them, but we want to keep what we have.
CAC Is that what we need in view of local difficulties and exercises?
JT That is what I had in mind in regard of the care meetings; the Lord is making much of them lately. Earlier, the elder brethren used to hold things more than they do now. Care meetings imply experienced brethren; but it is important to see that these crowns are priestly, and the priestly side includes all the saints, brothers and sisters. It is a throne, but it is a priestly one, so that all are brought into administrative matters.
FW I think you drew attention to the fact that these horses in Zechariah 6 had no horsemen. Now the thing seems to be established in men.
JT It is all a question of men in the second part of this chapter; it supposes spiritual intelligence in the handling of the things of God. It is the thought of spiritual intelligence and sympathy. Priests are supposed to be sympathetic as well as intelligent. Our conclusions in care meetings will be greatly augmented by bringing in all the saints; that is, in assembly. If any sin is discovered, let him that discovered it be the first to cast the stone. Supposing [p. 216] a sister comes into the knowledge of something that should be dealt with in the assembly, she should put the information where it should be, but she does not say, It is your matter now — it is still her matter.
JAP Is priestly rule in that way in contrast to the rod of iron?
JT It is. We are moving in sympathy. The sin is not modified, but it is dealt with in a gracious way. The shirking of responsibility is what must be dealt with. The person who finds out the evil should cast the first stone. If that person is a sister, she cannot stand up in the assembly and declare what she knows; but the fact that somebody else has to do it does not relieve her of having to cast a stone.
FWW Would the household of Chloe be an illustration on that line?
JT Yes, they showed the matter to the apostle Paul. What do you think, Mr. C., about bringing in young brothers and sisters in the exercise of judgment?
CAC I think it would lead to a great development of exercise. The failing is to let everything of the nature of government rest with the brothers, perhaps the older or gifted brothers, but we should bring them all in.
JT The sister John addressed as “the elect lady” is brought into the exercise of discipline.
JHB How do brothers or sisters qualify for the wearing of a crown?
JT In the exercise of priestly authority. Anyone who has the Holy Spirit is a priest — a person with priestly authority as to the discipline of the house of God. Priesthood includes all.
COB You would encourage every brother to be present at the care meetings.
JT Yes, and all the sisters to enquire as to what happens. There is a great deal of weakness because the sisters do not make inquiries. Of course in the exercise of discipline they should be present. Scripture [p. 217] shows that the exercise of discipline belongs to the assembly. Where it is exercised in Acts 5, which is the most drastic discipline we have in the New Testament, it speaks of all the saints being in Solomon’s porch after that, as much as to say, We are all in this: we are thoroughly with what has happened. Solomon’s porch suggests the place of judgment. Are we all going to be there? There is so much need for this kind of dealing with evil amongst us.
EuR Do you mean that every brother and every sister should show their practical sympathy and support with what is done?
JT Yes; and all in a locality should be present in a meeting for discipline.
Rem That judgment would continue in our attitude towards the offender.
JT Yes, and that is one of the conditions for addition. There may be a cutting-off, but it is a condition for addition. A multitude of believers, both men and women, were added to the Lord after that discipline in Acts 5. God honours discipline; it maintains conditions suitable for addition. It is “added to the Lord”, in Acts 5:14. The authority of the Lord was vindicated in the discipline.
EuR Do these two features run parallel, the recognition of spiritual ministry and the maintenance of government in localities?
JT Yes. The prophetic word is greatly needed, and hence the ministry meetings are owned of God. The intent of them is the prophetic searching of hearts. The ministry of prophecy is shown to produce that effect. One falls down and owns that “God is in you of a truth”, (1 Corinthians 14:25). These meetings are of great value if we take them up in that way. God searches our hearts through the ministry.
CAC Would that give us silver and gold for [p. 218] the crowns?
JT Yes; I think silver would indicate the redemptive rights of Christ over us. Every one would feel that the Lord had bought him, that he is not his own; his body belongs to the Lord, and the Lord has a right to wear that crown in dealing with him. Silver here is a question of love. It is a crown of that kind. It speaks of the death of Jesus, which is the full expression of love. But there is also the gold, that is the divine side; what is distinctively of God. This would involve His authority as asserted in the prophetic word.
JHB What would be the difference between the crowning of the high priest and the crowning of these four men?
JT Joshua is Christ typically. Whatever wealth we have, we use it to make a crown. We say, What is being done, Christ is doing it. Everything we do that God owns, you say, The Lord is doing that. The more you know yourself, the more you attribute it to the Lord, but He gives you credit for it.
It is instructive to see here that locality is in view; in that “he shall grow up from his own place”. That is where one is known. One does not use his own will to spread abroad his own influence, he grows up out of his own place. The word “Branch” would mean that He is a dependent Person; it might be rendered “Sprout”, there is the thought of freshness in it. This must be worked out now mediately. We see Christ coming out, as Paul says, “a proof of Christ speaking in me”, (2 Corinthians 13:3). He lived by Christ, and Christ lived in him towards the Corinthians. It is what Christ is in this respect. But He is in view here personally also.
PS Why are these four crowns spoken of as being for a memorial in the temple of Jehovah?
JT First, it is said that “the crowns shall be for Helem, and for Tobijah, and for Jedaiah, and for Hen the son of Zephaniah”; these four men are [p. 219] distinguished by them. You will observe the change of names here. There are two changes; the first one, Helem, evidently alludes to Heldai, and the fourth one, Hen, alludes to Josiah. There are changes without any notification, which are to be understood spiritually. It shows how a man changes in his service if there be this energy of life which is contemplated here. Brethren will change, and their names will consequently change; for a name expresses what one is. So that we have four persons for whom the crowns are for a memorial; three persons with wealth, and one with a house in which they were. The one with a house becomes a fourth person to be honoured. We are in the presence of the activity of life in the second part of the chapter, illustrated by the Branch, or Sprout, which is the energy of life in which Christ is seen; and then the individuals in service, two of them with their own names changed, showing how energetic life is.
Ques Do you connect what is said in verse 12, “He shall grow up from his own place”, with Luke 4:16, “And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up”? Does that not bear on us as to growing up in our own place?
JT It does. It works out in what God has so stressed in recent times, local responsibility. What a man is, shines out in his own place. “The Branch” means a person who is dependent, fresh, as drawing from his normal source.
Rem We read in verse 11 of the previous chapter, that the women carry the ephah “to build it a house in the land of Shinar ... upon its own base”.
JT There we see evil in its own place, in the same way as the man of sin will go to his own place; it is what is proper to him in an evil sense. But the thought in the Branch is someone growing up, that is life. A brother is changed; he is not what he used to be. He has a name now and a memorial [p. 220] in the temple of God, as to what he has done to honour Christ. The name signifies that he is worthy of a crown. How could he have a crown for a memorial if he had not a name? It is a question of life.
WH Has Revelation 4:4 any bearing upon it, the four-and-twenty seats and the elders with crowns of gold?
JT They are more official than these. These are persons come from Babylon, but they are rich and people of means, and you know where to find them. Their names are available to honour Christ. What they have reflects back on themselves. These men are known; the crowns are for them “for a memorial in the temple of Jehovah”. What is going on is not forgotten. The history of God’s work in His people is wonderful! Nothing of it shall be forgotten. You sometimes hear exaggerated stories of those who have served before us; but here what you get carried forward is accurate, not legends we cannot be sure of. The temple is enriched by these things.
RSC What does “the counsel of peace” refer to?
JT It refers to Jehovah and Christ. That is how things are carried on.
RSC Is it the unity between the Father and the Son?
JT Exactly. The one on the throne is in perfect accord with Jehovah. The Lord says, “I and my Father are one”, (John 10:30). The great source of all in our service, is that infinite unity between the Father and the Son.
CAC Is it something like “him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God”, (Revelation 3:12)? Are the crowns on that line?
JT I thought so. What you cherish is your crown. Our chapter contains the most important instruction for the present time: the first part [p. 221] treating of the wise provision of God in government during the times of the Gentile; the second part dealing with God’s direct government, seen, as applied today, in His discipline and care generally of the believer, and more particularly in and through the assembly. “The four spirits of the heavens” are employed generally for the restraint of evil in the world and the maintenance of such order as is needed for the continuance of the testimony of God, including livable conditions for His people in carrying on His service here. “The mystery of iniquity” has worked from apostolic times, as we learn in 2 Thessalonians 2, but these powers check it. From time to time, indeed, certain leaders among the nations have arisen more or less uncontrolled, representative of this mystery, and foreshadowing him who is to come in his own name, but they were held in check. So it is today, and this service by agencies provided of God will continue until the time fixed for the translation of the assembly to heaven (1 Thessalonians 4), and the termination of this dispensation. We are steadied and quieted by these comforting facts as considering current events among the nations.
Pages 222 - 451 — “Notes of Readings in New York”, 1936 (Volume 133).