THE INDIVIDUAL AS AN OVERCOMER
[p. 192] THE INDIVIDUAL AS AN OVERCOMER
Judges 4:1 - 9; Judges 5:1 - 11
JT I was thinking specially of the examples that this book furnishes of individual prowess, what one person may accomplish as devoted to the Lord.
AH Does the state of things in Judges correspond with our day?
JT I think so. What you observe is that they began happily, the history is presented first from the standpoint of the exercises of the people, up to the fifth verse of chapter 2. The book begins with the exercises of the people. “The children of Israel”, it says, asked Jehovah, “which of us shall go up against the Canaanites first”, Judges 1:1 and then Judah said to Simeon his brother, “Come up with me”. There is the recognition of the Lord in His sovereign rights, and then there is brotherly confidence — “Judah said to Simeon his brother”, Judges 1:1. Simeon had got his territory inside Judah’s territory, and Judah was not at all resentful of the intrusion, but regarded Simeon as his brother; of course much less influential, but nevertheless he is Judah’s brother and he invites him to go with him to the conflict. I mention this as showing the setting of the book. It says later, “Judah went with Simeon his brother”. Judges 1:17. There is a brotherly reciprocity.
GE They were together in their exercises.
JT Yes; Simeon goes with Judah, and then Judah goes with Simeon. They act together. That is a point worthy of note in this book. But then the exercise that is thus noted declines, and we have such statements as in chapter 1:21, “The children of Benjamin did not dispossess the Jebusites”, Judges 1:21 and then again, in verse 27, “Manasseh did not dispossess Beth-shean”, Judges 1:27 and in verse 29, “Ephraim did not dispossess the Canaanites”. Judges 1:29.
Zebulun “did not dispossess the inhabitants of Kitron”. Judges 1:30. “Asher did not dispossess the inhabitants of Accho”. Judges 1:31. “Naphtali did not dispossess the inhabitants of Beth-shemesh”, Judges 1:33 and so on. And then it says in chapter 2, “The angel of Jehovah came up from Gilgal to Bochim”. Judges 2:1. The angel comes in to express the mind of heaven about the position. He says, “I have brought you to the land which I swore unto your fathers, and I said I will never break my covenant with you; and as for you, ye shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars; but ye have not hearkened unto my voice”. And then it says, “The people lifted up their voice and wept”. Judges 2:1 - 4. There was a certain amount of repentance. That is how the matter ends. And then you have a new history taken up from the divine side. In verse 6, “Joshua dismissed the people”; Judges 2:6 and so right down to the end of chapter 2 you have the history from the divine side. God raises up judges, and was with the judge. So that it is now a question of the judge, whoever he may be. It says in chapter 2:18, “When Jehovah raised them up judges, then Jehovah was with the judge, and saved them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge”. Judges 2:18. Hence the judge becomes of immense importance from this point onwards, whoever he or she may be.
WP Does what we get here answer in some way to Revelation 2 and 3?
JT Yes, quite.
Ques Would the judges answer to the overcomer in a measure?
JT In a certain way. The overcomer is the link with God, the influential link, and he becomes, I think, the Lord’s representative.
AH Would it answer to the angel in that way?
JT Well, the angel is more the responsible element in the assembly, and therefore would include [p. 194] everybody; it places an obligation on you. Of course, the overcomer would take it up more definitely; he would take up the message with more heart and definiteness than anyone would.
WP And I suppose it would be the overcomer that the Lord could use in deliverance.
JT Just so.
WJW Is it the breakdown of the public position that brings the angel into view?
JT Yes. It suggests distance. It is the Lord’s angel in Revelation, His own angel, and then the angel of the assembly. The angel of the assembly is the representative of the assembly, but that works out in the way that every individual in it is brought in, because everyone is responsible. No one can disclaim responsibility. It is well to notice the two angels, or rather the Lord’s, and then the seven angels of the assemblies. The one is the direct representative of the Lord, and the others are representative of the assemblies. But I suggested these passages because they bring out what, in a way, corresponds with what we have been saying. Deborah dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah. That refers to what she was personally, I apprehend. It denoted, I think, personal victory. She was an overcomer herself.
JS I wondered what you had in your mind as to the judges today. Who would answer to the judges today?
JT Oh, well, it is a question of overcomers, I believe, and then the sovereignty of the Lord allied to that; whom He may be pleased to support specially. What strikes you in the book is the variety of the selection.
JS I thought you were using the scripture to indicate what an individual might do.
JT I hope we may see that, because these passages strikingly illustrate what an individual, even a woman, may do as an overcomer. The variety of the [p. 195] selection strikes you. It is to be noted, “Jehovah raised up judges”. Judges 2:16. He raised them up, but I think anyone raised up, would be raised up on the ground of moral qualifications. Samson may stand out as an exception, because he was indicated before his birth. Other features of the truth enter into his history. But, generally, I think, It will be found that the judges are raised up on the ground of moral qualification. The sovereignty of God is seen in the raising up of any judge, but nevertheless, as in the case of Deborah, there were moral qualifications.
HM Were there not with every one of them elements of sympathy with the condition of the people?
JT Yes, I think so. In the first one, Othniel, his wife represents the underlying subjective state of the whole book. She saw, as it were prophetically, the need of springs, because without the springs the very best instruction that we can have, the best order, will soon drop to the level of current religion.
GE There must be power behind it.
JT Yes, and freshness. She had the southern land, which is the very best. She had a south land, which I suppose would represent, in Christianity, the full outline of the truth, including Ephesians. We are favourably set up; we are in favour with God; everything is in our favour objectively. But then that is not enough. We may have all the ‘collected writings’ and the ministry indicating the mind of God, but we need the Spirit as the spring within. Achsah saw the need of that. That is what underlies the position — it is seeing that the springs are needed, so she says, “Give me also springs of water”. Judges 1:15.
WP That is what helps us on the subjective line.
JT A spring is essentially subjective. It is from beneath, it springs up. And he gives her the upper springs and the nether springs; the upper first, because I think it has reference to the maintenance [p. 196] of the heavenly side of the truth in a practical way in our souls, and then the result of that flowing out in the way of righteousness. Nether springs would be, I suppose, the epistle to the Romans; that is to say, the Spirit is apprehended, as in the epistles to the Romans and to the Ephesians.
FC So that, whilst her exercise desires springs, she does not specify what the nether springs are.
JT She left that with her father. “Give me springs”, she says. Ephesians says that He gives “exceeding abundantly above all that we ask”. Ephesians 3:20. Caleb would represent God, I think, in this instance.
GE Would that be suggested in the Lord’s word, “Ask and ye shall receive”? Matthew 7:7.
JT I think so. These two features, at the outset, greatly help in the understanding of the book — the brotherly spirit, and the understanding of the need of springs. If these two things are kept in view we shall proceed on mutual lines, otherwise God will need to raise up judges.
WP Having the springs, would that help us in regard to the enemy?
JT It would. What you see about Othniel is that he prevailed; he took Kirjath-sepher, and then he prevails as a judge, too. We are not told much of the details of his triumph, but it says in chapter 3:9, “The children of Israel cried to Jehovah; and Jehovah raised up a saviour to the children of Israel, who saved them, Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb’s younger brother. And the Spirit of Jehovah was upon him, and he judged Israel; and he went out to war, and Jehovah gave Chushan-rishathaim, king of Syria, into his hand”. Judges 3:9,10. What you notice is that he judged Israel before he triumphed against this great power. Usually the triumph brings you into prominence, but he had moral weight among the brethren. He belonged to a spiritual family, for he was nephew to [p. 197] Caleb.
GE It reminds one of Timothy coming in under Paul in that way.
JT Just so. It reminds us, I think, of the importance of “dwellings of Zion”. Caleb’s family is a spiritual family. He chose for his wife a sister.
WP One who had right desires.
JT Yes. It does not say in the Scriptures, “have we not power to lead about” a ‘woman’ but a “sister”, meaning that there is a spiritual link already in a sister. So that there was a remarkable dwelling-place there in that family — which thought enters greatly into our position in the assembly.
WJW Would you say in connection with Caleb that he had thirty-eight years of appreciation of the land before he entered it, and so he would value the inheritance he gave his daughter?
JT Yes.
WJW He could not give his daughter a better thing than the south land.
WP Do we get what answers to the judge today?
JT I think we do. But we should note these family connections. You see if we do not maintain the family connections and mutual feeling, then God, in order to preserve the testimony, is obliged to raise up a judge. He will do that in His mercy. But the conditions that prevailed at the outset did not require a judge. Judah went up, Simeon went — that is, the idea of brethren was evident. This was holding things. But God is faithful, and if these mutual conditions are not prevailing, then He is obliged to raise up a judge. Such a one stands out prominently; he saves the people; the testimony is preserved. Gideon, I suppose, is the typical man in this position.
WP I suppose he would have recovery on that line, to get back what belongs to the brethren?
JT That is what a true ‘judge’ is; he would [p. 198] rather have a mutual state among the brethren, than that he should have the prominence.
JBS Would you say there was a mutual state in early Acts; they were together in brotherly relations, and then the Holy Spirit comes down? Judges are raised up to call attention to the departure from that which is of God.
JT Quite. You see that in Peter and John; the Spirit of God calls attention to them in Acts 3, but after He calls attention to them, and the result of their labours — the man that was healed — they return to their own company, and they merge in that company, and so the mutual conditions are preserved. They are not outstanding in that company. They merge in it. It saves us from clerisy, which corresponds possibly with the Nicolaitanes. One specially prominent can retire and be one of the brethren. John says, “I, John, your brother and companion in tribulation”. Revelation 1:9. See how he merges with the brethren.
CS The family idea is what is normal — that is the divine thought — and the judge comes in as a result of failure.
JT Exactly.
AH I suppose you would say that God would always save the situation. He is never taken at a disadvantage. If a crisis arises someone comes to the front. Does not the crisis prove that there is a man of God? The crisis does not make the man of God.
JT No. God has His eye on him. He has been with God, and the crisis brings him out.
GE These principles have been maintained to the present day.
JT They are written for us, you know. So that the first thing to notice here, and in every instance, is that the people cried to the Lord. It is to their credit that they did so. They cried out of their distresses, but He hears them even then. And what comes out is that she “dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah”. I apprehend she was an overcomer.
AH What is the significance of a woman being a judge?
JT To bring out the maternal side. Chapter 5 brings out the maternal state of things that was there — “a mother in Israel”.
JS Is there some help for us in connection with dwelling between Ramah and Bethel? It says, “She dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah, between Ramah and Bethel, in mount Ephraim”. I thought the three things went to indicate where she dwelt. She had a connection with Ramah, a connection with Bethel, and a connection with her own palm tree. Bethel must be connected with God’s house because it means that; but Ramah was where Samuel had his altar, I believe. Samuel’s domestic connections were at Ramah.
JT Yes. Samuel dwelt there and judged Israel there.
HM Do you mean that she was right domestically, and she was right with regard to the assembly — the house of God?
JS There was dignity about her domestic position, and her position relative to God’s house, and the position relative to the palm tree.
JT The palm would represent, no doubt, her own personal victory — the palm tree of Deborah.
AH She was a prophetess too, she had the mind of God.
JT Her husband, I think, represents light. Lapidoth is torch. So that in all her circumstances she was a very remarkable person.
RW Would there be a sphere of influence connected with such an one?
JT I think so. The Spirit of God gives us [p. 200] the whole setting of the woman. She was the wife of Lapidoth. It was not simply that he was her husband; she was the wife of Lapidoth.
RW The mother in Israel and the wife — does that suggest moral stability in connection with the sphere in which she lived?
JT I think so. It says “she judged Israel. And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment”. There was a definiteness about her. “They came up to her for judgment”. She had that place with them. It is one thing to be in the position, and it is another thing to have the saints recognise it. Well, then, what you see in her overture to Barak is her recognition of divine authority — ‘Has not the Lord commanded?’ It is not a question of any specific command, but there was such a thing as that. It is calling attention to the assertion of divine authority. “Has not Jehovah commanded?” That is to say, it is a time in which God is asserting His supreme authority, and it is for Barak to see that, and come under it. So that it was not a question of her announcement to him. She was putting it on other grounds. It is not what I say, it is what God says. If you can make that clear, then everybody is exposed. He has to submit. If he does not submit we know where he is.
WP Lawless.
JT Yes. I do think it is very fine how a woman with this great influence and authority is not putting it forward to influence Barak. It is, “Has not the Lord commanded?” “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me”. John 14:21. We know He has commanded, and it is a question of making that clear to everybody. Unless there is a recognition of that a man is disqualified; he has no part or lot in the matter, unless submitting to the authority of the Lord.
AH [p. 201] The apostle could speak of his writings as being the commandments of the Lord.
JT That is what I was thinking. These are principles, thoughts that enter into every local company of God’s people, and also in a general way. It is always a question of the authority of the Lord. You take account, of course, of a brother’s word — he is godly, and has influence and support from God — but you want to be sure that the Lord has commanded.
EMW When the enemy comes in like a flood, the Lord would raise up a standard against it.
JT Yes, and you will always find that it calls attention to the Lord’s commandment.
GE They had not obeyed the commandment of the Lord, so they were in this position.
JT Just so, and now the Lord had commanded, and the commandment had reference to Barak, and he was to move with the understanding that it was not Deborah — it was the Lord. The position we occupy is of no moral worth unless it is based on this — adherence to the authority of the Lord.
HM Is not the raising up of the standard a question of what Christ is as the gathering centre? The standard is raised; they gather round the standard.
JT ‘Standard’ is a military reference. It is found in the book of Numbers, which book contemplates all believers as mustered, first in regard of their localities, and then in regard of the whole position — surrounding the tabernacle. Well, the standard would have some reference to Christ.
WP For any man, however great, to draw around himself would be only attracting from that.
GE That is what Christendom is occupied with today — setting up different standards.
JT Like Absalom, who drew away from David.
Ques Would that be lawlessness?
JT Yes, Quite.
[p. 202] WP The line that Deborah was on would preserve us in that way, because she brings the commandment of the Lord before us.
JT I was thinking that. I hope we shall get the thought into our souls that she is asserting the authority of the Lord. And Barak submits, he comes into it. It says, “Go and draw towards mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali”, and so forth. “And Barak called together Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and there went up at his feet ten thousand”, you see how the people offered themselves willingly. What is needed is a leader. So the celebration in the next chapter, verse 2, “For that leaders led in Israel, for that the people willingly offered themselves”. You have a leader now under the commandment of Jehovah, and then we have the ten thousand men. It shows how leading under God is effective.
WP So that a lead is good, as long as it is according to the commandment of the Lord.
JT Indeed, it is a divine way of ordering and governing His people.
WJW A ministry like that would keep the highways clear, and would keep the saints from the byways.
JT That is what comes out. “Until I Deborah arose ... a mother in Israel”. Barak is brought into line, that is the thing. You recognise the commandment of the Lord, and then the people willingly offer themselves.
Ques Is that the beginning of the victory? The people gave heed to the commandment of the Lord.
JT I think they followed a good lead. It is a great thing in a crisis if there is a leader who takes his pattern from Christ. That is the way to lead. Barak put his life in his hands, because he was contending against a tremendous enemy — nine hundred chariots of iron, with a corresponding army. It was [p. 203] very unequal conflict. Outwardly, he put his life in his hands. That is the idea in leading — you have to sacrifice your life.
GE The Lord’s words, “He that is greatest among you shall be your servant”. Matthew 23:11.
WP It is like the Lord who laid down His life for the sheep.
JT That is it.
JC Was Deborah in her right place when she called attention to the commandment of the Lord?
JT I think so. She is “a mother in Israel”.
JC I suppose the judges were raised up for that purpose.
JT Quite. In the New Testament the faith is attributed to Barak, and she is not mentioned. The exploit is attributed to him — the faith. But she shines here.
JBS Would you say she acted at the right time? She said, “Up, for this is the day that the Lord hath delivered Sisera into thine hand”. She was in accord with the times.
JT Quite. Now when you come to chapter 5 you have a song of celebration, and it is Deborah and Barak — they sing together. And what is celebrated at the outset is “For that leaders led”. A leader is one who leads. And then the people willingly offered themselves. As it says elsewhere, “Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power”. So that what we have to be concerned about in a crisis is the will of the Lord, the authority of the Lord. The people will come into line if you go right, if you lead.
Ques Is that the thought of ten thousand men at his feet? The subjective truth would be typified in the woman, to be brought out in the people.
JT I think that is right. “The people willingly offered themselves”, it says; and then she says, “Bless Jehovah”, and she calls attention to what Jehovah did earlier, and says, “In the days of Shamgar, the son of Anath, in the days of Jael, the roads were unused and the travellers on highways went by crooked paths. The villages ceased in Israel, ceased until that I, Deborah, arose, that I arose a mother in Israel”. The villages ceased and the highways were unoccupied — meaning that the people of God did not act on divine principles, because I think divine principles are the highways for us, and then the villages, or the inhabitants of the villages ceased; meaning, I suppose, that there were no communities of fellowship, no interchange of neighbourly thought.
WJW Would you say the village suggests prosperity, a spreading out of the town?
JT I suppose they would be places in which people lived, and communed with one another happily. Known places, with highways leading from one to another.
WP Should it exercise us if there was no meeting in a place where there once was a meeting; would it suggest that the highways have been neglected?
JT One, for instance, is isolated as some of us are; and there is no meeting, and the next thing is the highway. Occupation of the highway leads to a meeting; that is, divine principles would lead me to visit around in the neighbourhood, and look up would-be travellers.
GE God delights where there are proper conditions to open up new territory.
JT Yes. It is surprising how many of the Lord’s people you find, if you look for them.
Rem Get them on to the divine principles and you will have a village, so to speak, and it works the other way, I suppose, if there is neglect of the highways, villages cease.
JT In Psalm 84:5 you have, “in whose heart are the highways”. That is, the principles of God that are to govern His people in this world, leading them [p. 205] into the purpose of God, are in your heart; and, therefore, if one is in isolation, the thing is to look about, and see if you cannot get these principles and highways into another heart.
EAM Not come down to their level?
JT Not turn to the byways. Oft-times isolated Christians are minded to turn into some system. They say, “There is no fellowship here”, and they turn into some denomination, and the brother is turned into byways, instead of looking around for some other traveller, and getting him into the highways.
HM Do not the highways suggest, too, that communications are maintained, and trade relations, with the places of administration?
JT So that it says in Psalm 84:7, “They go from strength to strength, each one will appear before God in Zion”. Every one of them appears before God; that is the ultimate end of the highway; all the highways lead to Zion.
JC Does that suggest the house of God?
JT Yes, the apprehension of the purpose of God for us.
HM Was not the reason why all this had come about the fact that the mother spirit had gone? — had to be raised up, and is not that open for all of us? The apostle Paul said he was among the saints as a nurse who cared for her children.
JT Just so. So that Gideon, the next great judge, refers to his mother. He says, “What manner of men were they that ye slew at Tabor?” And they answered, “As thou art, so were they, each one resembled children of a king”. Judges 8:18. He says, “They were the sons of my mother”. He does not refer to his father, because it is a question of the motherly influence; that is what gives character to the children.
WP So that if there are right conditions in [p. 206] a meeting there will be healthy strong children — sons.
JT Yes. There is a similarity to Christ in them.
There are many recorded as sons of the father — the paternal side brought out, but they have not got the maternal characteristics; they have not the mother’s stamp on them. Wherever you go you meet saints in the light of the assembly; they are all of the same hue and character. You recognise them readily.
JS Yes. You are struck with that. You are speaking about the isolated saints — it is a very interesting point. We would be slow to encourage them to migrate to the cities.
JT I am sure the Lord’s thought today is increase of meetings — not the increase of their size, although that is, of course, to be looked for, but the increase of their number.
JS You would have a very definite exercise as to whether things could not spread where people are, if they came to light.
JT The Lord would appeal to all in any locality, and, if I am in it, the word comes to me — why should I be alone?
RW Do you not think there is a very great need of travellers?
JT That is what you want to get — all the saints of God moving.
RW To be moving with God in connection with the interests of Christ.
JT That is right. I think that is the idea of the highways. You are going somewhere. It is not a blind alley. If, I turn to the Methodist Church, what is the end of that? It leads nowhere, except, perhaps, more and more into the world.
RW Is not there the danger of settling down and making communities?
JT We want to see that there are communications. Highways, or communications, leading to one end. Now you see the chapter proceeds to speak about “the voice of those who divide the spoil in the midst of the places of drawing water”, chapter 5:11. This fifth chapter is really God’s spoil, it is a triumph, a celebration to God. “Bless Jehovah”. It is the outgoing of their hearts, showing what a conflict really issues in. As it says, “The voice of those who divide the spoil in the midst of the places of drawing water”. The spoil is there, you see, and we divide it in the midst of the places of drawing water; that is, at our readings and places of ministry, we divide the spoil.
JC That would bring in the brotherly spirit.
JT Yes, you divide.
FC That is in contrast to what is suggested in 1 Samuel 30. Those who went forward with God, they only should have the spoil.
JT David refused that. Here the spoil is divided. The authorised version does not give the sense, it is misleading. It is a question of dividing the spoil. “Because of the voice of those who divide the spoil. ... There they rehearse the righteous acts of Jehovah; his righteous acts toward his villages in Israel”. That is the theme of the brethren as they come together at the places of drawing water; all these meetings are intended to be places of drawing water.
HM They go over and over again God’s activities until they have them well known.
JT Yes, they rehearse them. They are places of drawing water, there is refreshment there.
AH There is nothing stale in Christianity.
WP It is Jehovah’s triumph, not Barak’s.
JT “His righteous acts toward his villages”, the assemblies. We learn how to be righteous towards one another as we rehearse the righteous acts of Jehovah.
EW Then they are able to go down to the gate.
JT “Then the people of Jehovah went down to the gates”. They are ready again to face the enemy.
[p. 208] The gates, too, have reference to administration — dealing out things to others.
WJW I was wondering whether it would be the administration of the spoil.
JT It would, very likely. In the Psalms it says, they shall not be afraid to meet the enemy in the gate; but generally I think gates are where administration is carried on. The house of God is the gate of heaven.
WP To go back a moment to the thought of judgment — Deborah judged Israel; they came to her for judgment. How does it apply today?
JT Oh, I think in the sense of expressing the mind of God about matters. God has “appointed a day in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead”. Acts 17:31. That means that there shall be a perfect discrimination of everything in Christ in the future. Judgment shall have returned to righteousness. God raises up men of moral weight and intelligence, through whom He conveys His mind and influences His people in what is right.
WP So that every question and every difficulty might find an answer today. We should have the Lord’s mind in that regard.
JT It is wonderful how the Lord does give judgment amongst His people, as we submit to Him, and are simple about it — His mind is made known about everything. They came up to her for judgment. It shows that they recognised that it was there.
RW There is no company, however weak, that it is not available to.
JT Just so.
WP It involves opening up the highways. We cannot get it unless we are acting upon divine principles.
Ques Why is Barak’s name given in the New Testament?
JT I think it is to maintain divine order. The order of God is maintained, I think, in Barak, because really it was he who led in the conflict. Deborah was with him. I do not suppose she would have any question about it. She would very heartily take a place behind Barak, and let him have the position of faith in the records.