THE GOSPEL OF HEAVEN
[p. 179] THE GOSPEL OF HEAVEN
Hebrews 4: 1 - 16; Numbers 13: 26 - 27
JT It is hoped that we shall see as we proceed that this chapter contemplates the gospel, but properly the gospel of heaven, alluding to the passage in Numbers where we have recorded the spying out of the land of Canaan by those whom Moses sent out, alluding to, not what we might call the gospel of our salvation, but the gospel of the land. The gospel of our salvation touches more on deliverance from Egypt, but this gospel we are alluding to refers to the land. Then it is thought we also might see in connection with this the word of God and the danger of not hearkening to it, and thus not entering into the rest of God; and then the priesthood of Christ, which is evidently added in Hebrews 4 to support us as in the light of this gospel, so that we may not draw back or become hardened: as it is said in the 3rd chapter: “Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness; where your fathers tempted me, by proving me, and saw my works forty years”, verses 7 - 9. So that it is hoped that we will reach these points to our profit, first to see that the land is in question in reference to the gospel here: chapter 4: 2.
JAP Would that be in correspondence with John 3: 16 — “May not perish but have life eternal”?
JT Well, in so far as eternal life leads us into heaven in the thought of it, but I would say the land goes further as a type. It includes our heavenly position, that we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies, and that God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies, Ephesians 2: 6 and Ephesians 1: 3. “Every spiritual blessing” goes further than [p. 180] eternal life.
HEF Would you say in what way it goes beyond the thought of eternal life?
JT I would rather say eternal life does not go as far as the heavenly calling. Ephesians contemplates the heavenly calling. Romans (and of course John’s gospel, but particularly Romans in the Pauline epistles), treats of eternal life as secured through the gospel, but the heavenly calling is contemplated in Ephesians: we are “blessed ... with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ” — “every spiritual blessing”.
Rem Eternal life has an earthly setting, has it not?
JT Well, you would have to be careful in limiting it to earth. The Lord in John 3, when He touches the heavenly side of the subject, says, “If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you ...”. I think that is in mind. I think eternal life is involved in that. What do you say?
Rem Yes, quite so; I was only thinking that, in the setting of it, it was enjoyed on earth.
JT Well, I would like to keep it nearer to heaven than that as a subject, as a great fact, indeed. I mean, the Lord’s own words alluded to in John 3 would help in that direction. It is said in verse 12: “If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe? And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven”; and then He goes on to the doctrine of eternal life, saying, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that every one who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish,
but have life eternal”, verses 12 - 16. It seems to me that the Lord’s words there should be weighed as to our subject, as to the bearing of eternal life, and how near it touches heavenly things, because there is clearly a link with heavenly things in the subject of eternal life.
MGW What are the “glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ”, Ephesians 3: 8 — does that link on with the gospel of the land you have referred to?
JT Yes, one would think so: “To me”, says the apostle, “less than the least of all saints, has this grace been given, to announce among the nations the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ”; and it goes on to the mystery: “and to enlighten all with the knowledge of what is the administration of the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God”, and so forth, Ephesians 3: 8 - 9. So that Ephesians clearly relates to the heavenly calling which the land answers to, and the gospel of the unsearchable riches is linked up with the mystery. I mean, we do not want to evade the greatest things if we can rightly or legitimately touch them, and yet have understanding as to how the truth reaches down to earth; just as the expanse in Genesis 1, the expanse which is specifically called “heavens”, evidently reaches down to earth, because it includes the atmospheric heavens. So the link is there between the heaven and the earth, and God says, “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool”, Isaiah 66: 1, linking them together. Clearly the thought of eternal life is in relation to the millennium, as it says, “The righteous (shall go away) into life eternal”, Matthew 25: 46. Clearly that is on the earth, but then we should be careful as to linking it up with the heavenly, the whole scheme of truth, because the Spirit is here to guide us into all the truth, and that includes [p. 182] eternal life.
WBH Could heaven be spoken of as the home of eternal life?
JT I should not say that. Eternal life is presented as in Christ as to position. At the present moment it is realised in the assembly, because the Spirit is here; but in the future it will be on a lower level; it will be enjoyed on the earth in relation to Israel and the nations; and in view of that we have the names of the tribes of Israel in the gates of the city.
Ques In what sense do we have to enter into our rest, or His rest?
JT Well, now we come down to our chapter. I wonder whether we have got as far as that word as to eternal life. Have we got that matter settled?
Rem I was wondering, if we were in the gain of eternal life, whether we should have entered into rest — into the gain of it?
JT I should not say that, because it is what Joshua gives in the type. Here in Hebrews 4, we have: “Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you might seem to have failed of it. For indeed we have had glad tidings presented to us, even as they also; but the word of the report [p. 187] did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard. For we enter into the rest who have believed”, verses 1 - 3. Now to speak of that and in any way to limit it to eternal life would be a mistake because we have the greatest thoughts involved: it is the whole scope of the land really, and the gospel of the glory included.
Ques Does it include what God has found His rest in?
JT Just so, that is what it says here.
JIW Would the gospel presented to us in verse 2 of Hebrews 4 include the epistles to the Colossians and Ephesians?
[p. 183] JT Well, I would say that, Colossians being the lesser of the two, Ephesians being the full thought of the calling, the calling of God. Colossians is on lower ground really, because I would say that the word that would cover it most accurately is “entering”, not “having entered”, but “entering”. It is a period or a territory on which we enter first as crossing the Jordan: there it is that we touch the old corn of the land, but there it is, too, that the circumcision is applied. I think that the word “entering” would be more accurate than to say we have entered, whereas Ephesians contemplates that we have entered: we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, in Ephesians; whereas Colossians is on lower ground, that we are “risen with Christ”: it does not go further than that. It has heaven in view, but it is, “raised with him (Christ) through faith of the working of God who raised him”, Colossians 2: 12. So that what we are saying now is of the greatest importance to us in our subject as to the land and as to entrance, and then the full thought of having entered.
Ques I was going to ask whether there was not in both Colossians and Hebrews a danger of falling short of the great heavenly calling?
JT That was the danger at Colosse: they were in danger of being turned aside by philosophy and vain deceit. But I would not connect eternal life as a subject either with Colossians or Ephesians, but rather with Romans. It stands in relation to the gospel, the gospel of our salvation, which Romans opens up to us.
FCH The gospel of the land is included in Exodus 6, is it not? and also in Exodus 15? Exodus 6: 6 - 8, reads: “Therefore say unto the children of Israel, I am Jehovah, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will [p. 184] deliver you from their service, and I will redeem you with a stretched-out arm, and with great judgments. And I will take you to me for a people, and will be your God; and ye shall know that I, Jehovah your God, am he who bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. And I will bring you into the land concerning which I swore to give it unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; and I will give it you for a possession: I am Jehovah”; and Exodus 15: 17: “Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, the place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling, the Sanctuary, Lord, that thy hands have prepared”.
JT That is the passage I was thinking you were going to stress, being brought in and planted in the mountain of His inheritance, the Sanctuary being established, taking us as far as David really. It is prophetic in that sense. But we ought to be ready for prophecy, and especially as to Ephesians, to get the idea of anticipation, of the truth anticipated, because it is said that we are, not that we should be or shall be, but that we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.
FCH Do you distinguish between the thoughts of being brought in and entering?
JT Well, I should say entering is a subjective thought, and is really more in line with Colossians where we need circumcision. They are already across the Jordan, but that was only initial. Jericho had not been taken; therefore I would say that entering is a matter on our side of the truth — how we enter in: the being brought in is God’s side. So it was at the beginning in Egypt: God says, “I have borne you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself” — Exodus 19: 4; that is God’s side; but they had to cross the Red Sea, which they did. We need to keep the two things together to help us: that is,
God’s side of purpose and power, and our side through the Spirit and the exercises that accompany the presence of the Holy Spirit.
Ques Would you tell us a little about the rest into which we are to enter?
GHW Does the word of Moses in Deuteronomy correspond a little with the scripture in Hebrews? It was the desire of Moses in relation to the people of God to enter into the land and enjoy the possession; it speaks of the days of heaven upon earth.
JT Just so: Deuteronomy is full of it. Deuteronomy is an unfolding of Moses. It was not what Moses was told to say, but what he said — a man appreciating the land, not himself entering in, but having an apprehension of it, so that understanding Moses in that sense brings us into touch with one thoroughly in the thing, yet not entering himself because he is under the government of God. He is kept out of it, but he knows it, and was led up to the top of Pisgah to see it, God showing it to him, and not the end nor the beginning, but He showed him the whole land. That is what we should have in mind now, the whole land, because the spies saw it all; they tell us what they saw.
JAP May I ask one more question in relation to eternal life? I was thinking of the epistle of John where it says (1 John 5: 20) “He is the true God and eternal life”; and it speaks of having the Son and having life (1 John 5: 12) — does not that go beyond Romans?
JT I suppose it would. It is John’s line, of course, but it is not his gospel: it is his epistle, and the epistle really deals with eternal life: “That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life; (and the life has been manifested, and we have seen and bear witness, and [p. 186] report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us)”. That is John’s epistle, and the subject really is life; but to say that it is the full position of Ephesians, of course, would not do, because it was given to Paul to open up and complete the word of God, as he tells us. So we have the whole scope of divine counsel in his ministry. That is the point today, I believe, if the brethren are ready for it. The Lord is ready to bring us in, because He is going to take us in literally soon in power, but He is seeking to take us in now. Those who have believed do enter into rest, not literally, but in the power of the Spirit. Hence we are warned against having things without faith. The things we hold are to be “mixed with faith” — a remarkable phrase.
Ques Was the forty days (Acts 1: 3) an experience of eternal life?
JT Somewhat, but not on their side, because they had not the Spirit yet. We need the Spirit for the enjoyment of eternal life, and they did not have it yet. The life was there: Christ risen was there in their midst, but full Christianity involves the Spirit: “The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”, John 7: 39. He must be glorified before we get the Spirit.
WSS Was it your thought that we should be set free to enter livingly at the present time into heavenly things and to distinguish the features of the land — the hills and valleys and waterbrooks?
JT That is what I would say exactly, and this chapter is intended to help us because it contemplates that we have the light. He says, “Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you might seem to have failed of it. For indeed we have had glad tidings presented to us, even as they also, but the word of the report did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard”. So that we have the light already: God has opened up the truth to us, especially in the last hundred years or so; but the question is whether it has been mixed with faith, and we have learnt to go in for the thing. For instance, as to eternal life it says, “Lay hold of eternal life”, 1 Timothy 6: 12. We are told to do it.
Ques Does the appearance of the glory in Numbers 14: 10 link on with the testimony of Joshua and Caleb regarding the land? I was thinking of the glory appearing as in support of the testimony of Joshua and Caleb, as if to give it a place amongst Israel.
JT I would say that, the glory being there. Quite so. It would be a link with Ephesians, what has just been remarked. We have had glad tidings presented to us: the question is whether the truth has been mixed with faith. Of course, we have it in our bookcases, but then faith is not there: it is a question of our souls. “The word of the report did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard”.
AM The Lord does not mention faith or believing in John 3, until He raises the question as to heavenly things: is that not important? Faith is emphasised from that point onwards in the chapter — see verse 12.
JT That is good. Hence the importance of faith which we find more stressed in John, perhaps, than in any of the gospels. Then we have the long chapter in Hebrews dealing with faith, in which we are told that without faith it is impossible to please God, chapter 11: 6.
COB Could we link with this thought of entering into the land, the bringing many sons to glory in chapter [p. 188] 2?
JT Well, I would say so. “Bringing many sons to glory”: it is in agreement with what has already been spoken of: I mean from Exodus 15. Bringing many sons to glory would agree with the suggestion of being brought in, and being planted in the mountain of His inheritance, in the Sanctuary which His hands have established. That is what God has brought into Hebrews to encourage the Hebrew Christians, to divert from apostasy and to salvage whatever possible from the apostate tendencies of the people. That is what the epistle is written for.
Ques Will you say a word about the rest of God?
JT Well, it is a beautiful expression, God entering into His rest. We have to go back to Genesis 2, for it: it is beautifully linked up with Exodus 31: 17: “On the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed”, showing what is before us — the blessedness of the rest of God. It has been pointed out that the idea of the sabbath with Israel would probably include about a quarter or more of their time, if the sabbaths were kept according to the instructions, showing how important the thing is in the mind of God; and it begins with Genesis 2. God rested and was refreshed, we are told in Exodus. So here, what is in mind is the rest of God. “For we enter into the rest who have believed; as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, If they shall enter into my rest; although the works had been completed from the foundation of the world. For he has said somewhere of the seventh day thus, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works: and in this again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remains that some enter into it, and those who first received the glad tidings did not enter in on account of not hearkening to the word ...” that is the point: the refusal to hearken to the word, and hence deny [p. 189] ourselves the greatest blessing.
PJB Who is the “he” in verse 10?
JT It is abstract, I should say: whoever it may be — anyone who has entered: “He also has rested from his works, as God did from his own”. It is a question of who enters, and evidently there were very few entering then.
RSC Would that correspond with “his works” in verse 10?
JT Well, that would be ourselves: the time of labour is over. God is encouraging us in that way to enter into things. The Lord promises to Philadelphia that we should go no more out.
WSS Is it a practical question for us at the present time as to how far we have entered into rest in order that we might go on to the apprehension of heavenly things?
JT Well, that is the object of this reading: it is a question of whether we are open to be convicted of unbelief, or whether we have the holy mixture of faith with the idea of the promises.
Ques Would you mind saying a word as to the close connection between faith and hearkening? It comes into chapter 3, and right through this one.
JT It is a remarkable thing that faith comes by hearing, by the word of God: “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God”, Romans 10: 17. That is what we are to hear. It is a question of faith and the word of God.
Rem The danger comes about through not hearkening to the word of God.
JT That is right; and of course, “not hearkening to the word” (of God) — where that is, there is no question of faith at all. So the two things are very closely allied. That is, faith is by a report, but the report by God’s word. That is how it is presented in Romans. So that the whole matter here is to challenge us as to whether we have faith or not, because we [p. 190] have had the things presented to us: there is plenty of truth: where is the faith?
PJB Do you say that this chapter is preparatory to entering into the full blessings of Christianity?
JT So it is; the full blessing, which is far more than Christianity. Christianity refers to something down here, worked out down here by the Spirit, but the heavenly calling is what we are aiming at.
MGW Does this matter of entering into rest coincide with our conscious enjoyment of sitting down in heavenly places?
JT That is what I should say, because we touch on God’s rest. He has nothing less than that, and it is involved in what the Lord says to the disciples: “In my Father’s house are many mansions: I go to prepare a place for you” — that is, the saints of this dispensation — “and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself”, John 14: 2 - 3. That will take place when the Lord comes; but what we see here is the light involved in that, laid hold of now in the power of the Spirit: that is the faith mixture. Do we understand that commodity?
MGW I would like to ask whether the glad tidings are that God has made us to sit down in heavenly places, or that He will bring us there?
JT Well Ephesians contemplates that He has already done it: it is a feature of Ephesians. It is already done, because that is a question of the power of God. So in Colossians we are raised by faith of the working of God, but that is not heavenly places. There is the idea first of understanding that we are raised with Christ; that is in Colossians; but in Ephesians it is that we are made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. That is a question of anticipation; we are safe in doing it for the Spirit of God does it because of the power of God — what God has promised He [p. 191] will do.
AJT Do the walls of Jericho stand between Colossians and Ephesians?
JT I would say that, although the Colossian position is more the territory, as already remarked, covered by the word “entering”. I think Jericho goes a little beyond that: it is the overthrow of the world. The idea of entering is one thing, and the overthrow of the world in our souls is another matter. That is what Jericho means. So Samson may be taken to represent the Colossian truth when his hair began to grow. He lost power when it was shaved, but when his hair began to grow that was a token that he recovered life, and then there was the overthrow of the Philistine house when 3,000 were slain. That was the overthrow of the world. Samson accomplished more in his death than in his life, and we have to do that, perhaps just now. It is a time of coming to the end and bringing down the world. That is the idea of the overthrow of the world, whether it be Jericho or the Philistine house. So Samson said to the lad who led him “Let loose of me”, meaning he wanted to be wholly free to exercise the power of God. As long as we are held, even by a lad, on the world’s side, we will be hindered. It is by being delivered and set free from any hindering power that the matter of the overthrow of the world is entered upon, because the world has to be overthrown in our souls; we need not expect it to be overthrown otherwise. It is a question of what has taken place in our souls. That is what we get in Colossians.
Ques Does Acts 19: 19 exemplify what you are speaking of, where they confessed and burnt their books?
JT Quite so: that is the overthrow of the world; that is the world of books — literature — not the world in a military idea, but the world of literature, which is a great matter, because most young people are [p. 192] damaged by literature and do not go on with the truth because of it. It is not a question of military opposition, but of books.
Ques You were speaking of Samson overthrowing the power of the Philistines by life operating in him: does not entering into rest involve life operating in the believer as well as faith?
JT Quite so; that is, the growth of his hair would mean that life was recovered in him.
Rem I was seeking to get help as to the connection between faith and life in the believer.
JT There is a very strong connection here in what we are dealing with. It is a question of mixing with faith what you have learnt when you were converted. When God spoke to your soul you had faith or you would not get anything. Without faith you would not get anything. So the point is as you get faith and get light enough for salvation, whether you go on in that faith and get the light of the land and entering on it, and then it is life and power in your soul — potential life — and that is the point in Colossians.
Ques “The just shall live by his faith”, Habakkuk 2: 4 — is that life in connection with the land and the heavenly blessings you have been speaking of?
JT Just so, living by faith: that is from Habakkuk. It is one of the passages that affords the idea of faith to us. It is a question of living, not entering into the land, but living. We are now dealing with the question of entering the rest of God which is within our reach as having the Holy Spirit.
Ques Does that connect with “he also who eats me shall live also on account of me”, John 6: 57? One has in mind a touching word from dear Mr. Coates just recently — that it is a fine way of coming into eternal life to eat your way into it.
JT Quite so: that is living by Christ, eating the bread of God that came down [p. 193] from heaven.
EBI Is that why in John 3 and John 10 the gospel of eternal life is linked with not perishing? Is it that we have to be free in regard to that before we can enter into the full heavenly portion in John 20?
JT You are talking now of John 10, linking it on with chapter 20?
EBI In John 10: 28 it says, “I give them life eternal: and they shall never perish, and no one shall seize them out of my hand” — that is heavenly, is it not? And in both cases — chapter 3 and chapter 10 — eternal life is presented as if to preserve them from perishing — something like what we have in Hebrews 4, not entering into rest.
JT Well, just so, only that John is divided as to this point into two sections; chapter 10 is in the first, chapter 20 is in the second, and the second begins properly with the 13th where the Lord has in mind that we should have part with Him, and then chapter 14, and then chapter 15, and then chapter 16, and then chapter 17, where He lifts up His eyes to heaven and says, “Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee”. Now in chapter 9, the blind man had come to the knowledge of Christ as the Son of God: “Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage”, verses 35 - 38. He is the characteristic man in that section, and it runs on to the end of chapter 12, involving the Jewish side of the position. Chapter 13 begins with the heavenly side, part with Christ, and it involves what we read in chapter 14, as to His coming to us, and also that in His Father’s house are many mansions. So we are led into the heavenly side in that section, ending with the Lord’s prayer in chapter 17. Then we have chapter 20, which is the climax of the [p. 194] matter: chapter 21 is an appendix; but chapter 20 is more than a matter of eternal life: it is a question of the breath of Christ — fitting us for the heavenly position as about to ascend into heaven. Eternal life is not the point there; it is the breath of Christ. He breathed into them the breath of life: He said, “Receive the Holy Spirit”.
Rem I was wondering whether that corresponded somewhat to the epistle to the Ephesians.
JT Quite so: John 20 corresponds with Ephesians, only it is not the collective side as in the assembly, but the persons who form it.
RSC Could we have a word as to the bearing of the word of God?
JT I hope we have profited so far. The word of God, as we have had it already, is given to us in verse 11 of Hebrews 4, but the confirmation of the idea, the full idea, is that it is God Himself; the word of God is God Himself: “The word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is not a creature unapparent before him” — that is, it runs into God Himself — it really involves God Himself — the word of God, which is a matter of great magnitude, entering into ministry and the like. Then it says, “But all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do”. Hence we are impressed with the magnitude of what is before us, that is, God Himself in His word, and the terribleness of refusing it, of having our heart hardened to refuse it. But then grace comes in in the 14th verse: “Having therefore a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession. For we have not a high priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but tempted in all [p. 195] things in like manner, sin apart. Let us approach therefore with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and find grace for seasonable help”. This is the beautiful grace side of the whole passage — how the Lord is ready to support us — if indeed we are subjects at all of the work of God — to go on into the rest. God has not changed His mind about us at all: He never does. He is ready to do the best for us. So here it is a question of grace in the High Priest.
WSS Would you connect the support you are speaking of with the apprehension of the truth of ascension?
JT I should indeed: it is a question of going in. The High Priest over the house of God who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, touches on what we are dealing with: He has passed through the heavens.
WSS I was thinking of that; linking the thought of His having passed through the heavens with the ascension aspect of the truth. It connects with what you have been saying to us at earlier meetings.
JT Well, it is connected with ascension, and the thought of the Lord having passed through the heavens is remarkable: it is mentioned more than once in the Hebrews: see Hebrews 7: 26.
SB Would the word of God in verse 12 go further than the word preached in verse 2?
JT Well, it is a question of the increase of power involved in the passage, how the word of God runs into it. It is spoken of first as the actual word as it affects our souls, but then it runs into God Himself. How constantly it is brought before us! God is speaking to us: He is near us in grace in these three verses.
Ques Does that in any way connect with John 1: l — “In the beginning was the Word”?
JT Just so: “The Word was God”. It shows how the Persons of the Father and the Son are linked together.
JAP Would you attach this to the ministry? How far would you say it was the word of God?
JT It is a question of how it strikes you, because it is God in the minister. Any time that we have a meeting like this, it is a question of the word of God. If it is not the word of God, what is it worth? The word of God is through the ministers.
RSC Is it the suggestion that we need to have things clarified and divided for us?
JT Well, quite so: the parting asunder as we find it in the types. Here it is, “For we have not a high priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but tempted in all things in like manner, sin apart”. So that He is near to us, and ready to break things up for us in His grace, tenderly touching us, knowing full well what is needed in each of us, so that He might support us into the position that is in His mind, namely, the rest of God.
FCH The Lord brought it in Himself, did He not, when He was tempted of the devil? I was thinking of His sympathies now; He brought in the word of God, and He is able to sympathise with us.
JT “Every word which goes out through God’s mouth”, Matthew 4: 4.
COB What is the confession here which we have to hold fast?
JT I think it would be Christianity — what was confessed in the baptism of the saints, what was involved in it. It really is Christianity. Holding fast the confession is a question of what is presented in Christ for our confession — what we believe — what is called “the truth”. It is only so as to get the practical side that I am speaking thus, because when we believe on the Lord Jesus we are to confess Jesus Christ as [p. 197] Lord, but the whole matter of Christianity is involved in “the confession” as over against Judaism.
COB In chapter 3, it speaks of the “Apostle and High Priest of our confession” — is that what we are going on to?
JT Just so: it is what we are in, really, what we are going on with here in testimony: it is a confession — what we say and do, what we acknowledge in relation to the Lord; carrying on the service of God is involved in it, too.
FCH Is the confession our response to the calling?
JT Just so. Why should we not take it all in — the confession involved in the death of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ, the advent of the Spirit, and the whole truth? It is a question of the whole truth: that is involved in the confession.
JIW What is the thought of having “passed through the heavens”, verse 14?
JT He has gone outside of the creature realm, I would say, meaning He is God. Only a divine Person could go into that realm.
RSC Why is it the throne, and no mention of any person on the throne?
JT You have that in Hebrews especially and in Colossians in relation to the Fulness: “In him all the fulness of the God head was pleased to dwell”, Colossians 1: 19. We are not told what the Fulness was: it is really a name, you might say.
PJB We believe in the death of Christ and in the resurrection of Christ and in His ascension as having gone into heaven: but does it involve more than that — the bearing of it upon our souls?
JT Well, it is confession, whatever may enter into the word: it is the confession of the truth of Christianity, involving divine Persons and the [p. 198] work of Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit here on earth as over against all other confessions, all other religions. This is Christianity and the Jewish believers were in danger of giving it up.
Ques Do you think that the bringing of the fruit of the land is in measure the confession?
JT It was a testimony to the land — what beautiful grapes the land grew: it was the subjective side.