MORNINGS IN CONNECTION WITH THE PLAGUES
[p. 411] MORNINGS IN CONNECTION WITH THE PLAGUES
Exodus 9: 13 - 18; Exodus 12:1 - 6; Exodus 12:21 - 28
JT I thought we might begin with this passage in chapter 9, because it is the last morning of the series of mornings. Jehovah said to Moses, “Rise up early in the morning, and set thyself before Pharaoh”. These plagues, or signs, are in two series of three, and are the last of four which began with this morning. Finality is reached in the course of dealings.
Ques Why do you emphasise the mornings?
JT I think it should be noticed that this course of dealings is grouped under certain mornings. In chapter 7, verse 15, you have the first morning mentioned; then in chapter 8, verse 20, you have another morning, and the last in chapter 9, verse 13. The first morning introduces the course of plagues, beginning with the water being turned into blood; then the frogs, and then the lice or gnats. Then we have the second series, beginning with the flies, then the plague on the cattle, and ending with the boils. Then this chapter gives the beginning of the third series of plagues, which comprises the hail, the locusts, the darkness and the slaying of the firstborn, all looking on to finality. So that you have this remarkable address to Pharaoh: “I will at this time send all my plagues to thy heart, and on thy bondmen, and on thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth. For now have I put forth my hand, and I will smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. And for this very cause have I raised thee up, to shew thee my power; and that my name may be declared in all the earth. Dost thou still exalt thyself [p. 412] against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?” This is final. God is notifying Pharaoh of the final issue; and where you have a morning — God beginning in the morning — it is not an isolated act of God, it is a fixed course of dealings with a definite end in view.
WHM Showing the urgency of the matter, is that your thought?
JT Yes; that there should be an issue reached. God has shown great patience with Pharaoh and his people, and now He notifies them that the end is in view, and that he is to be cut off from the earth, so that He sends His plagues to his heart.
Rem “Rend your heart, and not your garments”, Joel 2: 13.
Rem It is personal to Pharaoh here; but when it is quoted in Romans it is that all the earth might learn from God’s dealings with Pharaoh, is it not?
JT Quite. Here it is that “my name may be declared in all the earth”. Evidently God has in His mind in all this that He is to be known. But what we began with was not so much the effect of these plagues on the Egyptians but their effect on the people of God — what formative influence they had. And so the idea of life, as we dwelt upon it yesterday, is to be noted, particularly in the plague of gnats or lice; the presence of living things, creatures. This idea runs right through the Scriptures: the living creatures in the book of Revelation. Creation itself was to live and overflow with life and praise to God. Here it is simply the beginning in a small way. The insects alluded to are extremely small but very penetrating; they were on man and beast, or as it may be translated, in man and beast. Here it is on man and beast, but it is such an insect as finds its way in to the skin, therefore although small it is effective; and there is no cessation, it does not come to an end. It is said that the gnats were throughout the land of Egypt, “And the scribes did so with their sorceries, to bring forth gnats; but they could not. And the gnats were on man and on beast. Then the scribes said to Pharaoh. This is the finger of God!” Pharaoh’s heart is hardened; he is stubborn. There is nothing said about a cessation of this. We have to understand these plagues from the standpoint of the New Testament, and we can see there that the divine thought is life. The Lord Jesus said He came that they might have life. And it is to continue; it is not a passing thing, it is a permanent thing, an eternal thing. But it has its effect here in testimony; it makes itself felt.
JRS Are you thinking of what Paul said, “Thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life”, 2 Timothy 3: 10?
JT Well, exactly — what he was; what christians are here as the expression of divine life has a telling effect. And then I think you have a sort of counterpart of this sign in chapter 9, beginning at verse 8, “And Jehovah said to Moses and to Aaron. Take to yourselves handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses scatter it toward the heavens before the eyes of Pharaoh. And it shall become fine dust over all the land of Egypt, and shall become boils on man and on cattle, breaking out with blisters, throughout the land of Egypt. And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it toward the heavens; and it became boils with blisters breaking out on man and on cattle”. Now it says, “The scribes could not stand before Moses because of the boils”. That is to say, they are overthrown, they are set aside. Already they had to acknowledge that it was of God, that the life was the finger of God, but now the testimony is moving on in increased power in Moses and they have got to go away. That is to say, you have something more than the mere dust of the earth, you [p. 414] have the ashes of the furnace, which, in the light of the New Testament, must be connected with the death of Christ. The ashes of the furnace, it says, sprinkled toward the heavens. I think that we may see in these two signs the effective setting aside of the magicians; they are not only exposed, but they cannot stand. The testimony is moving on irresistibly.
WH Although these were judgments, you seem to be bringing forward something of real good and life to us.
JT Well, I think these plagues are not exactly like the book of Revelation; they are to bring down and weaken the world in my soul. They are tempered with mercies, and they apply at the present time, so that the people of God might be brought out of the world; that is, the world is weakened in my soul. They were signs to Israel, but plagues to the world; the judgments on the world are signs to me.
WH So that we are to learn from that and move out of the world.
JT That is the idea; the power of the world is weakened in the soul of the believer. We shall see in chapter 12 that they are already formed into an assembly — addressed as an assembly, which means that these signs had a formative effect in their souls.
EJF After the plague of hail there seems to be a movement with the servants of Pharaoh. Verse 20 says, “He that feared the word of Jehovah among the bondmen of Pharaoh made his bondmen and his cattle flee into the houses”.
JT That illustrates what we are saying.
WHM Showing how it was moving out.
JT The word, indeed, is beautiful and tempered with mercy. “Now send, and secure thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field: all the men and the cattle that are found in the field, and are not brought home — on them the hail shall come down, and they shall die”. So that it is a word for everyone from Pharaoh down, a world-wide testimony to bring your belongings home, away from the place of judgment. There is a home for them.
WH So that all we see going on would be the means of making us value and take up our own portion.
JT Quite; and we are compassionate towards the world, although they may be oppressing us. The word is to Pharaoh to take his cattle home, and those that feared Jehovah did it.
M Would that illustrate “He that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him”, Acts 10: 35? The Egyptians who obeyed the word got the gain.
JT That is right; anyone who obeyed the word of the Lord escaped the judgment. So that you might say you have the “whosoever” gospel here. It is well, therefore, to look at these scriptures in the light of the New Testament; they furnish in detail what you do not get in the New Testament; but the New Testament gives you the key to them. So that the furnace, for instance, speaks of the death of Christ; He has been through the furnace. The Lord had said to Abram earlier (Genesis 15: 13) that He made the covenant with him that His people should be four hundred years in the land not their own, and it says, “a horror, a great darkness, fell upon” Abram when the sun was going down. But it says, “When the sun had gone down, and it was dark, that behold, there was a smoking furnace, and a flame of fire which passed between those pieces”. That is to say, God in Christ passed through. God Himself entered in to make covenant with Abram. Christ passed through the pieces, so to speak. It was the power of God, but there was the smoking furnace. And now as Israel is going out of Egypt there are the ashes of the furnace; it has done its [p. 416] work. The testimony of the power of the fire acts against the Egyptians.
SL Would you say that God’s heart is towards all men for blessing?
JT Yes, and however severe His judgments, they are tempered with mercy. So that whilst in our dispensation God’s judgments may appear severe, yet there is the gospel, that all men might be saved. By and by, as it says in 2 Thessalonians 2: 11, 12, God will send strong delusion, and it is that they all might be damned; there will thus be a change, but that change has not come yet.
SL Would you say it is important that we should learn what God is doing?
JT Yes, and we should maintain the character of the dispensation. Whatever happens you want to keep in line with the dispensation of God.
JRS Do you regard this as being the first indication that the way out of Egypt is through the death of Christ?
JT The ashes of the furnace indicate clearly that the fire has been there. The ashes became a means of testimony in this powerful way. They are “Sprinkled ... toward the heavens” — there must be very great virtue in them.
FI Do you mean that the gnats indicate the sovereign work of God in the soul — new birth?
JT That is right; it is life in a small way but effective, and as soon as it takes place in a man’s soul there is a change in that person; you cannot but notice it. But then when you get the ashes of the furnace that is more, they have passed through death; and it is these ashes that become blisters in men and cattle.
JRS So then, does that rightly follow the first movements of life?
JT Yes, I think so; I think the ashes would follow, and the connection with heaven is very [p. 417] suggestive. Of course, we have only just touches here, but if you look at it in the light of the New Testament it is very suggestive. It becomes boils with blisters on men but only for their good, as a testimony, a heavenly witness to them.
HCL Why is there a change with regard to the expression about the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart? It says the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart in verse 12, before it speaks of Pharaoh hardening his heart.
JT That is judicial; what a man is is fast bound on him if he continues in it. You often find that, that men continue in a course of self-will; they are warned and pleaded with, but they become hardened in it, and God lets it go on; in fact, it becomes judicial. Of course, Pharaoh is the outstanding illustration of the judgment of God; he is the prince of this world, raised up for this very purpose; that God, as it says here, might show His power in him. But he hardened his heart first, you see. “Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice”, Pharaoh had said; he was stubborn at the outset (Exodus 5: 2).
Ques Is “raised up” there raised up to the throne?
JT Well, raised up into this prominent position — this kind of a man.
JRS In this chapter, verse 13, God speaks of Himself as “the God of the Hebrews”. Is this involved in our position and place with God at all?
JT He is said to be the God of the Hebrews earlier (Exodus 5: 3 and Exodus 7: 16); He takes the place of being their God. I think it is to bring out how God owns His people, however man regards them. He is their God; it says in Hebrews that He is not ashamed to be their God. And He goes further in saying to Pharaoh: “Dost thou still exalt thyself against my people” — God stands out for His people. “If God be for us, who against us?” Romans 8: 31.
JW Nobody — unless one’s [p. 418] self?
JT Quite.
M Pharaoh thus stands out as a wholesome warning to those who seek to resist or oppose God.
JT Yes, that is what he represents. “Who hath hardened himself against him, and had peace?” Job 9: 4. He stands out prominently for that purpose. God overcame, and not only that, but Moses overcame him. What you see here is the progress of the testimony — how Moses increased in power, and how the plagues became more effective. So that the man Moses became very great in the eyes of the Egyptians as well as in the eyes of the people of God, and he stands out in speaking to Pharaoh in the end of chapter 10. Moses says to Pharaoh, “Thou hast spoken rightly: I will see thy face again no more!” He had the last word; God had given him that position, all working up to the dignity in which the people of God go out of the world. They are already victors before they leave. “Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world”, 1 John 4: 4. We are not running away from it. One is speaking particularly for young people, that they might see the divine intent, that christianity is already a victorious thing; it was that before I ever heard of it, and it will continue to be victorious, so that we may come into it with confidence.
JW It is encouraging because it shows the awful power that the Lord has overcome.
HB You spoke last night about Moses becoming ‘habituated to divine support’. I suppose that is what you see in Moses?
JT Yes; you can see how as he went on he conformed with the divine thought, that he was made a god to Pharaoh. God overcomes when He is in judgment, and so here He overcomes. I think it is an immense thing to see that God is inviting people to believe in Christ. It is a winning order of things; it is victorious. “This [p. 419] is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith”. The victory is already won.
WH It is a vast realm of blessing that we are brought into.
JT Quite.
Rem Moses “endured, as seeing him who is invisible”, Hebrews 11: 27.
JT Quite. Then there is the other side — one of distinction and power and God shows what He thinks about it. He says, “I will put a separation between my people and thy people”, Exodus 8: 23. That word ‘separation’, as you will see from the note, is literally ‘deliverance’ or ‘redemption’; it is what God thinks of us. And later it says, “But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast; that ye may know that Jehovah distinguisheth between the Egyptians and Israel. And all these thy bondmen shall come down unto me, and bow down to me, saying, Go out, thou, and all the people that follow thee; and after that I will go out”, Exodus 11: 7, 8. That is what Moses said to him, and it says, “he went out from Pharaoh in a glowing anger”. He was not afraid of Pharaoh now, he was superior; God had made him that.
WHM Do you think that the consciousness of that should be in our hearts? The superiority of everything belongs to the christian.
AA “Who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?” 1 Peter 3: 13. Even a dog will not move its tongue!
JT Quite. And this is all in the presence of the Egyptians; it is not what we are privately in the house of God, but what we are publicly bringing to light the honour that God puts upon His people. So no one need fear coming out openly for Christ, taking his place among the military of God, with those going out of Egypt with a high hand.
[p. 420] Ques The idea of tomorrow is brought in in connection with each of these plagues which concern life. There is the morning and tomorrow. Does that mean there is a day of warning?
JT I suppose so. God gives people opportunity for repentance. What He does tomorrow is done with great deliberation, is it not?
Ques Does all this set out what is embodied in the apostle’s prayer, “the surpassing greatness of his power towards us”, Ephesians 1: 19?
JT Just so. And then what He does tomorrow is really from the gospel standpoint — His judgment. ‘Today’ is grace, so that there is a mingling of grace. It is a reign of grace. If God gives a day, it is a day of grace; what will happen tomorrow is judgment.
Rem Moses seems to have got bolder as the plagues were drawing to an end.
JT Well, I was thinking that; how he waxes bold even in the presence of Pharaoh. He says, “I will see thy face again no more” and in the next chapter, “he went out from Pharaoh in a glowing anger”.
Rem There seems to be a certain discrepancy between chapters 10 and 11 in that respect. It is because chapters 10 and 11 happen simultaneously. It seems that Pharaoh did see his face again.
JT That is not the point; when it happens is not the point.
Ques Speaking of these plagues as signs for us, I suppose that the sense of the victory should increase as we go on?
JT You see how, as the plagues became more effective, Moses became bolder correspondingly.
Ques Elisha prays, “Open his eyes that he may see” and the young man saw the horses and chariots of fire about Elisha (2 Kings 6: 17). I suppose as Moses went on he understood the power of God more and more each [p. 421] day?
JT I am sure he did. David said, “The chariots of God are twenty thousand, thousands upon thousands; the Lord is among them”, Psalm 68: 17. It is a question of seeing what there is on our side. We need not fear.
Ques “This is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith”. Would not that increase with us (1 John 5: 4)?
JT Well, it is already there. The point is that “this is the victory which has gotten the victory”; that is the way it should read. The thing is already established. Christianity is a victorious thing, as you come into it. “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” (1 John 5: 5).
Rem Yes, but it is not everyone who has come to know Him in that way.
JT No, quite; but it is an immense thing to come into — a thing that is already victorious. You are to get personal victories. I have to get victory personally, so, “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” One has to come to that.
Rem Like the man in John 9 who was blind; he was led on step by step until he got into the full light.
Ques Do you get the same thing in the Acts in Peter and John? The people, it says, saw the boldness of Peter and John.
JT Quite. It shines beautifully in Stephen; although he was murdered, he was victorious. The fact that we are victorious does not mean that we do not suffer; we may even be put to death. Victory is in that, not lying down but maintaining the dispensation. That must go on.
Rem Stephen went out victorious.
JT That is what I was thinking.
Ques Is it moral rather than material?
JT Exactly.
[p. 422] Ques Would this be like the working out of the gospel? It says, “It is the power of God unto salvation”, Romans 1: 16.
JT Yes, to every one that believeth.
Ques You said that these things were not done privately. Is that an important point in connection with the establishing of things — a testimony?
JT I think it is. The idea of confession is what is open, is it not?
Rem Yes; I was thinking how, in relation to the Lord Himself, everything was done publicly; He was condemned in open court. And in the establishing of things in relation to the apostles’ testimony, there is a public side to it.
JT Quite; so that there was the superscription in Hebrew, Greek and Latin, so that the whole world knew. Fellowship, I suppose, is public. In Corinthians it is a question of the character of the thing — of the Son of God: The fellowship of God’s Son, that is the dignity of it. But then, it is the fellowship of His death; that is public. There could not have been anything more public than the death of Christ; it was outside the gate. He carried His cross, and the superscription was in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, so that the whole world could read. And so the fellowship of the death of Christ. “As often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come”, 1 Corinthians 11: 26. That is the public side. Then there is the fellowship of the Spirit. There are two private sides to fellowship: the dignity side — the fellowship of God’s Son, and then there is the fellowship of the Spirit. But then there is the fellowship of His death, which is public. In John’s gospel it is with the Father and the Son and with one another.
Rem I thought that in relation to the public side that perhaps as Moses here increases in power and [p. 423] confidence, so, as we are in any measure familiar with it, power and confidence in God is increased.
JT I am sure you realise that. As you go on in the truth your confidence in God increases, so that you wax bold.
Rem How bold the apostle was in the presence of Agrippa! “This thing was not done in a corner”, Acts 26: 26.
JT Quite; he seemed to be less confident in the presence of the emperor. He said, “At my first defence no man stood with me, but all deserted me”, 2 Timothy 4: 16. But he did not give way: “The Lord stood with me”, and “I was delivered out of the lion’s mouth”.
Rem He said, “I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course”.
Rem I suppose we all should understand the truth of this.
JT Well, I think so. Take a young sister or brother confessing the Lord in the office — because that is the principle of all this; it is open confession — confession with the mouth; though you may have hesitated, finally you do it, and presently you find you are a soldier. God gives you power when you need it. Then you increase in power — the next time you have more confidence.
Rem I was thinking you get confidence that you could not get without the confession.
JT You do. Many hesitate about taking certain steps; take coming into fellowship, they think there is so much needed.
Ques Is it not the knowledge that the Lord is near that gives one confidence?
JT Just so.
Ques And would the pillar of fire standing between the people and the enemy later on be confirmation of it?
JT [p. 424] Very, very fine. The pillar going round behind, that is very fine; showing what God is to us.
Rem I was thinking of Psalm 27, “The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?”
JT So that in chapter 15 here the song is the outcome of what is experienced. You begin by confessing the Lord humbly, and presently you find yourself singing this song: “Jehovah is a man of war”.
Pharaoh says, “The wilderness has hemmed them in”, as a good general would think, but he did not know that the wilderness was no barrier to them. It might be a barrier to an unconverted person, but it is no barrier to a child of God. The child of God does not want the world; the wilderness is his place. Someone has pointed out that Pharaoh made a speech to himself, saying he would do so many things. In chapter 15: 9 you have the enemy’s speech “I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my soul shall be sated upon them; I will unsheathe my sword, my hand shall dispossess them”. That is what he said, that was his speech; no doubt he made a sort of proclamation to his army, as great generals often do. But what is said of God? “Thou didst blow with thy breath, the sea covered them; they sank as lead in the mighty waters”. Then, “Who is like unto thee. Jehovah?” That is what the believer says. God did not make a speech in that way, but the sea covered them; at one stroke He buried them.
Rem They speak of what the Lord has done; the enemy says, “I will”.
Ques Would you say that the culminating point of these exercises is that the people are so moved in their affections that they cannot remain in Egypt?
JT Well, I think so; God has brought them up to this. They have profited by the signs, plagues to [p. 425] the Egyptians but signs to the people, to the christian; they are light to you and you are formed according to them. You begin this morning and go through the series.
Ques When are we clear of Egypt?
JT When are we or when am I? Which? Well, I think if we pursue now into chapter 12 we shall see that they saw the enemy dead on the sea-shore, and were able to sing. But you have to remember that this song has to be maintained. One might seem to be clear and yet begin to remember what he has left and hunger after it.
Rem They went back in their hearts after they had crossed the Red Sea.
Rem I was thinking, too, if affection for Christ wanes we are in danger.
JT Yes. Now, what may be noted in chapter 12 is the word ‘assembly’. In the New Translation you will see it in verses 3 and 6. In verse 3 it reads, “Speak unto all the assembly of Israel”, and in verse 6, “Ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it”. That is to say, you have two words: the word ‘assembly’, which is explained in the footnote as a corporate whole in which there is responsibility. The word ‘congregation’, which is said to mean that the whole is involved, only in its individual members. So that what we see here is that God has led His people up to the idea of a corporate whole; the young believer now begins to take his place in relation to the whole as responsible. There is the responsible whole, and then that I am a unit in it, but with my individual responsibility. That is what the word ‘congregation’ implies.
Ques Very interesting. When do we reach this point [p. 426] practically?
JT Well, I think when the young believer puts out his hand to break bread he commits himself. When he is baptised another does it; that is not exactly his responsibility, it is in a way, but it is purely individual and another does it for him. Baptism brings him on to the ground of privilege, and it is for him to take up his privilege. But when he puts out his hand to break bread he is committing himself to a unity as part of it; and what goes with that is the acceptance of corporate responsibility. That is the idea of the assembly. However few or many there may be in a city like this they take up the idea of corporate responsibility; not every member of the assembly, every member may not be in it; but the thing is accepted, and that is what I think is conveyed in the word ‘assembly’.
Ques Does that include what you have spoken of as the public side, as publicly taking place in the breaking of bread?
JT Yes; they are known as in that body. “The assembly of God” for instance “which is in Corinth”, 1 Corinthians 1: 2.
Ques Can the privilege of the corporate position be touched apart from putting your hand to the Supper?
JT I think not; that is where you commit yourself.
Ques Spiritual development depends on yourself then?
JT Yes, quite; and that in referring to the saints you do not speak of ‘they’ and ‘theirs’, but of ‘us’ and ‘ours’. As soon as a christian begins to wane and become worldly you find he begins to speak of the Lord’s people in the third person: what they do; whereas when he is bright and happy in his soul, when he has committed himself to God and to His people, he says ‘we’ and ‘ours’.
[p. 427] Rem He considers it a privilege to be associated with the Lord’s people.
JT He does, and he accepts the responsibility of all that attaches to him.
Ques There is no failure in the assembly?
JT No, as viewed abstractly; but from this point of view, the assembly of God in Corinth, I think there is. If you view the assembly as in Ephesians, then you are viewing it abstractly, and you may say there is no failure; but as regards its public position, as composed of men and women, there is.
Rem I meant as to the counterpart of Christ.
JT Yes, viewed in the abstract we are the body of Christ, but we have to view it in its actual state down here, that is how Corinthians takes account of it; we know well enough what happened there.
Rem There are the two sides, both equally true.
JT Yes.
Ques Is 1 Corinthians 10 connected with the “congregation of the assembly”?
JT Well, the idea of corporate responsibility enters into both chapters. “We, being many, are one loaf, one body”. I belong to that, and that is to govern me in my public relations, whatever they may be — my house, my business, so that I never lose sight of my corporate responsibility, and that I involve my brethren in whatever I do.
Rem If we speak of the saints in the third person we lose the blessedness of our own position.
JT Of course we do. We eliminate ourselves. You find in the epistle to the Hebrews the writer stresses that: “We have such a one high priest”, and “Let us approach with a true heart”, and so on.
Rem In that way we come in for all the blessings.
JT Yes, quite. It is a serious thing to eliminate yourself. Why not commit myself to this people? God says, “My people”. The God of the Hebrews;
[p. 428] He is the God of these despised people, and I do not want to cut myself off from them.
Rem This is now the beginning of their history.
JT This is the beginning of public history, in which we are owned of God, on the ground of redemption, as the assembly. He had spoken of them as His people, but now they are the assembly. It is well to note these words here.
Ques When we say ‘we’ I suppose we mean the whole people of God.
JT O, surely.
Ques Should not we have compassion on others who have never really apprehended the truth of the assembly, and seek to help them — even amongst ourselves? It would be a great thing to help others by being in the thing oneself.
JT Quite. You see the grand position they were placed in here: the assembly of Israel, and then the congregation as embodying all those members; so that every one is responsible, he is responsible individually and responsible corporately. These are immense positions in this chapter.
Rem This is the light in which God views His people, and they are required by Him in this way.
JT Exactly; He will have an assembly.
Ques You spoke of a young person seeking fellowship; what would you look for?
JT Well, I would look for love for Christ.
Ques Affections touched by the passover lamb?
JT Yes, that is the idea here, that there is a tenderness. All these signs were intended to affect them, so that they would feel things. And now they have this lamb, as Moses directs, seized out of the flock and kept four days in each house. Am I affected by that creature in the house? That is to say, Has Christ come into my view so as to affect me? And then that He should be killed; by wicked hands, it says, crucified and slain. Does that affect [p. 429] me? I think that every applicant for fellowship ought, in some little way, to be touched by this — by Christ.
Rem Anyone who has that love for Christ would be an asset in any company — the very youngest brother or sister.
JT The point is to bring in wealth; that is kept in view from chapter 15 of Genesis to this point. We are to come out with substance. If one has not love for Christ he has nothing. Wisdom says she causes those that love her to inherit substance (Proverbs 8).
Rem On a previous occasion I think you referred to the Spirit in connection with one seeking fellowship. I was wondering if that came in here.
JT Well, I should say, love for Christ; there are many other things: whether forgiveness is known, whether the soul is clear of the consequences of sin through the death of Christ. If the Deliverer is known He is loved. The Deliverer becomes the Husband; so that coming into fellowship is like taking one’s place as the wife. It is the bond of the covenant. Romans 7 is the idea: that we should be to another, “even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God”.
Rem The expression “Your lamb”, in verse 5, is a remarkable one.
JT Yes. “Your lamb shall be without blemish”.
Rem That would lead one to call things one’s own.
JT Quite: “Your lamb”. Very nice that, very fine; very touching for a young christian, that Christ is his.
Rem So that the apostle in the New Testament spoke of “us” and “we”.
JT Then in Canticles we see how love develops; the beloved can give an account of Him.
Rem You have spoken on more than one occasion of Romans 7; sometimes we despise that chapter,
[p. 430] but the first part that you mention brings in a very sweet thought.
JT Yes, I think it does; and in the end you reach the Deliverer, so that the Deliverer becomes the Husband. And I think that in taking your place in fellowship you will hold yourself for Christ; that is the idea of the assembly — to be to another — you are to the Lord. To sit down at the Lord’s supper is to hold yourself for Christ, but in relation to all the others.
Rem There is nothing so touches the heart as the sense of relationship.
Ques Do you connect the four days that the lamb was to be in the house with the Lord’s public ministry?
JT Yes, I think that is what it means. You see how those who stood by the cross of Jesus were affected. They followed Him from Galilee; from the time of the baptism of John until He was received up. It was from that place and for that time.
Rem I thought in connection with “Your lamb” that the contemplation of the Lord in that way in the gospels, and seeing how it was so beautifully expressed in Him, would affect our souls.
JT They followed Him from Galilee; that is where the ministry began. I think the four days is more a question of time. Four is adequate witness; two might have done. Speaking of it from His own side, He said, “and the third day I am perfected”; that is to say, His ministry only took two days from that point, an adequate witness (Luke 13: 32, 33). Four days goes beyond that; it is a full period of time given to those who love Him.
Ques In connection with what you have said as to those taking up the breaking of bread, in some cases where there is real affection for the Lord there seems to be a reluctance to move on account of the [p. 431] fear of breaking down on the line of responsibility. How would you help that?
JT Well, that is just what we are saying. God furnishes the income as you need it. That is to say, if God has taken charge of the expedition He has the purse; and you do not need to buy a ticket until you get to the railway station. And so it is, as we have to meet responsibility. God furnishes the means according to the need. The difficulty with many lies in their slowness to recognise this. When they come to the point they find that God has enough there to meet the need. Do not you find that?
Rem Yes; I think it is important because there is sometimes a definite reluctance, not apparently from anything that is wrong but from this morbid fear of not being supported and breaking down. I think perhaps what you said earlier as to increased confidence in God, as seeing the way He can guide, helps from day to day.
JT The manna came down every day; that is the principle.
Rem “Our sufficiency is of God”, 2 Corinthians 3: 5.
JT Yes. Now to finish our subject; in the paragraph from verses 21 - 28 we have Moses’ presentation of the message. I thought we might notice the manner of the presentation of the message from God because it is really a word for those who may present the truth to souls. “And Moses called all the elders”, that is to say, he acts on the word ‘assembly’; the elders refer to that, to corporate responsibility. Moses presents the truth, so that it says in the end of verse 27, “And the people bowed their heads and worshipped. And the children of Israel went away, and did as Jehovah had commanded Moses and Aaron; so did they”. That is obedience and bowing of the heart to the grace of the ministry; they worship as in chapter 4. Then they went and did the thing that the Lord commanded Moses; blessing lies in obedience. “So did they”. There is nothing for us without obedience.
Ques Do you mean that Moses presented this testimony as being in the good of the assembly? Is that what made it effective?
JT Exactly.
Rem So the effect of the signs is to bring about this state of soul.
JT Just so.
Ques What relation has what we have been following to Matthew?
JT As we have seen, it leads up to the assembly and the mountains round about it. Matthew, of course, is an advance on this.
Rem Obedience is a feature of the assembly.
JT It is indeed.
Ques What is the force of seizing a lamb?
JT I suppose it is securing it. It was not any lamb. In seizing the lamb we have to remember that it was to be a yearling male, so that there should be a complete type of Christ. You are to make sure of getting Him.